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Author Topic: Revisiting Keeper  (Read 24164 times)
rozetta
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« Reply #150 on: November 19, 2002, 03:53:59 pm »

I noticed Compulsion in a couple of the lists from the latest big German tournament (not just in the Squee control decks) and was wondering if anyone has given it a try and what they thought of it? I understand it's being run in the GrimPower versions of keeper, which are running green instead of red maindeck.

I've given it a quick try with varied success. Sometimes it's good, other times it's quite a let-down. The problem I mostly have with it is not having any cards I really want to ditch to draw something else, and the amont of mana required to run it. I can see the synergy with brainstorm/sylvan. I also noticed it was being used in decks also running Holistic Wisdom - another card who's mileage varies.

Any thoughts on this one?
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Mon, Goblin Chief
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« Reply #151 on: November 19, 2002, 03:58:32 pm »

I added Recall after removing green, as I felt I needed more recursion (especially for recurring discarded Yawggies). As Zherbus already said, it's usable but not amazing. I look at it like this: If you feel a need for more recursion than Will alone without green, you'll have to take Recall, as it's the best thing available. If not take something more broken or early game relevant.
In testing/tournament I had a few games where Recall was clearly better than Regrowth, but also a few where I'd have liked anything else better.
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Mith
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« Reply #152 on: November 19, 2002, 05:54:15 pm »

I noticed a Paragon Keeper (from another thread) using Urza's Rage in the board. Mon, Zherbus, etc...what do you guys think about this? Has anyone tried this tactic?
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TunaBoo
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« Reply #153 on: November 19, 2002, 06:36:37 pm »

Quote from: Mith+Nov. 19 2002,16:54
Quote (Mith @ Nov. 19 2002,16:54)I noticed a Paragon Keeper (from another thread) using Urza's Rage in the board. Mon, Zherbus, etc...what do you guys think about this? Has anyone tried this tactic?
Misdirection hurts!
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Zherbus
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« Reply #154 on: November 19, 2002, 07:09:48 pm »

I'm not against it, I just dont have the SB slot available for it. Everything currently in my SB needs to be there.
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ShadowLotus
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« Reply #155 on: November 19, 2002, 08:07:12 pm »

Quote from: Zherbus+Nov. 19 2002,19:09
Quote (Zherbus @ Nov. 19 2002,19:09)I'm not against it, I just dont have the SB slot available for it. Everything currently in my SB needs to be there.
This is my exact thought, as well.  Even though I don't feel Urza's Rage is good enough for a SB slot in my own deck, there are many cards (e.g., Alter Reality, Celestial Dawn, Timetwister, Teferi's Response, etc.) that I would love to try to squeeze into my own SB somewhere.  Everytime I make changes I try to make sure that it improves the deck overall, rather than just hose or add silver bullets to the SB against a single archetype in my metagame.  Being versatile is the key, especially in metagames that have a large amount of Keeper and non-basic land hate running rampant.

In the end, though, that's half of fun of playing Keeper.
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Cartman316 _420
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« Reply #156 on: November 19, 2002, 08:47:59 pm »

Hey,
Still been following this thread recently, and Milton, you dropped keeper? Hmm... suprising, also is that you have all that and 1 entomb!

I have been doing a lot of apprentice testing lately on EFnet #apprentice, playing whoever, whenever I could since I am home sick lately :-/.

This is what I have played against:

Stompy
Sligh
Mirror

and more of the above.

A random TnT game here and there, but that;s it folks.



3 Polluted Delta
        1 City of Brass
        4 Underground Sea
        4 Tundra
        4 Volcanic Island
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Sol Ring
        4 Wasteland
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Mind Twist
        1 The Abyss
        1 Recall
        1 Chainer's Edict
        1 Dismantling Blow
        1 Merchant Scroll
        1 Fire/Ice
        2 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Balance
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Braingeyser
        1 Stroke of Genius
        1 Mystical Tutor
        2 Misdirection
        4 Mana Drain
        4 Force of Will
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        2 Morphling
        1 Gorilla Shaman
        2 Cunning Wish
SB:  1 Peacekeeper
SB:  1 Misdirection
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Allay
SB:  1 Pyroclasm
SB:  1 Teferi's Response
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Diabolic Edict
SB:  1 Moat



That is what I have been using to sucess. A few notes:

I use recall because with Regrowth gone, I want another way besides Yawg Will to abuse early game madness, and with Mana Drain, I can sink a lot into Recall and go nuts.

Anyway, my SB is missing a card or two, and I tried the CoP: red/alter trick, but most of my opponents countered the Wish, so the CoP was dead in my hand vs anything not red. Damn them!

Ideas/flames? PYROCLASM IS GOLDEN!

~Cartman
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Cuandoman
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« Reply #157 on: November 20, 2002, 01:40:56 am »

Its funny, my maindeck shuffles like 2 cards around, yet I seem to always have a 30 card sideeboard that needs to be cut down. Seems I'm not alone!
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Ric_Flair
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« Reply #158 on: November 20, 2002, 10:56:34 am »

Okay, I am a newbie to Vintage, but why is Vindicate not a standard card in Keeper?  I see pretty janky stuff like Fire/Ice as a staple and this card seems weak against everything but Mox Monkeys.  What am I missing?  Why is Vindicate not required?  It could be used to help Abyss to work correctly.  It could bolster the LD cards, and it could replace the dismantling blow I see in many decks.  Is this a preference thing or its there are good game reason for no Vindicates?
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Zherbus
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« Reply #159 on: November 20, 2002, 11:05:30 am »

Because it require 2 off colors. If it was UW1 or UB1 to cast, I could assure you it would have a spot.

Fire/Ice isnt 'janky' because in a control mirror, it isnt dead creature removal. Just cycle it away, and potentially tap a key piece of mana EOT to break open a stalemate. Also, with an abundance of x/1's in vintage, it often gives a 2 for 1 advantage over something like Sligh. It also counts as a blue card, so Merchant scroll can fetch it (blue instant) and FoW and Misdirection can pitch it.
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Freddie
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« Reply #160 on: November 20, 2002, 11:07:03 am »

In the past many of us (including me) have tried using vindicate...

What I found (and most otheres as well) was that it was to clunky, being 2 off colors, and at sorcery speed.

Plus it is crazy misdirection fodder.

I have been wanting to try out vindicates again, with the new fetchlands, perhaps smoothing the 2 off color casting, I just have not had much of an oppertunity to. Overall, it just seems to be less consistant then expected, makes you tap out early, and does't serve as an effective way to kill bloodmoon, or river boas.

I think some others explained it similar to this:
-It's a bad disenchant effect
-It's a bad plowshares
-it's a mediocre sinkhole

Although it is versitile enough to (kind of) combine all of these cards... it just has inherent issues.

I suggest that you personally try it out, and make your own opinions about it, and if you like it, go for it, but overall I think that it is one of the many cards that are on the 2nd or 3rd rung of keeper choices.

-Freddie
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FeverDog
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« Reply #161 on: November 20, 2002, 11:08:10 am »

Ric, dont worry, its a mistake MANY players make at first. When Vindicate was first released, it seemed like a promising card for Keeper decks. After all, in a deck that wants an answer for everything, a 3cc Desert Twister seems like a perfect fit. Many good players tested the card, only to be extremely dissapointed.

The main problems are that it is slow(3cc, sorcery) and that it uses 2 colored mana, neither of which are blue. Not being blue is also a shortcoming because it cant be pitched to FoW or MisD. In the end, the card just became BAD spot removal, as it was rarely used for LD and D-Blow is much better at enchantment/artifact removal. So, compared to a Swords or Edict, the card just blows.

Hope this helps.
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Ric_Flair
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« Reply #162 on: November 20, 2002, 11:14:34 am »

Ah! The Wisdom.  Thanks.  BTW does anyone live in Boston?  I would love to play some time (after exams).
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LoA
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« Reply #163 on: November 20, 2002, 11:21:16 am »

Quite a few people in these forums live in/near Boston.  If I'm not mistaken, there's going to be a Type 1 tournament atYour Move Games (in Davis Square) on the 7th. Check in Tournament forum for more details.
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Dozer
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« Reply #164 on: November 20, 2002, 11:37:35 am »

Quote
Quote I noticed Compulsion in a couple of the lists from the latest big German tournament (not just in the Squee control decks) and was wondering if anyone has given it a try and what they thought of it? I understand it's being run in the GrimPower versions of keeper, which are running green instead of red maindeck.
Any thoughts on this one?
I tried it out for a short time instead of Sylvan Library and dropped it again. It's just not fast enough, IMO. I prefer effects that get me what I need fast over those deckthinners and topeck-enablers. But that was in a "standard" Keeper with green. Plus, to me the mana requirement on the sacrifice is really annoying. Really annoying. Why should I pay four mana (1U to cast, 1U to sac) to draw one card? In a pinch, this is just not enough.
Mind you, I am convinced that Compulsion is good, as is Sylvan Library. It's just not the style I want to play my deck.

Dozer
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tek
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« Reply #165 on: November 20, 2002, 01:30:46 pm »

Has anyone considered soothsaying as a sylvan replacement?
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Crawley
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« Reply #166 on: November 20, 2002, 02:15:23 pm »

I haven't actually tried soothsaying, but I think it's is a little mana intensive, and therefore too slow to be any good. It also doesn't put any cards into your hand, which I don't like.

So far the brainstorms in 'Paragon Keeper' seem better here, I haven't had any problems with them anyway. Brainstorm can also help against discard, which is nice since Suicide/Void are generally really scary matchups. The mana needed to sooth up something helpful might be hard to come by against these decks too.

Sooth can obviously help in a top deck situation, but I think Brainstorms are just better most other times. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
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ShadowLotus
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« Reply #167 on: November 20, 2002, 04:43:25 pm »

Quote from: Crawley+Nov. 20 2002,14:15
Quote (Crawley @ Nov. 20 2002,14:15)I haven't actually tried soothsaying, but I think it's is a little mana intensive, and therefore too slow to be any good. It also doesn't put any cards into your hand, which I don't like.

So far the brainstorms in 'Paragon Keeper' seem better here, I haven't had any problems with them anyway. Brainstorm can also help against discard, which is nice since Suicide/Void are generally really scary matchups. The mana needed to sooth up something helpful might be hard to come by against these decks too.

Sooth can obviously help in a top deck situation, but I think Brainstorms are just better most other times. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
I feel the same way.  Soothsaying's major drawback of being card disadvantage simply hurts it too much.  It probably is decent during the mid-game or later, but Sylvan Library is much better to use if you still run green, since at least Sylvan draws cards, and w/o having to pump extra mana into it for it to be effective.

Basically, the pause can be too fatal, there are better cards for that slot to run in Keeper, and if one is able to use Soothsaying w/ success, then w/ most of those games the Keeper+Soothsaying player was probably winning anyway.
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Dante
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« Reply #168 on: November 20, 2002, 05:47:34 pm »

Quote from: Ric_Flair+Nov. 20 2002,09:56
Quote (Ric_Flair @ Nov. 20 2002,09:56)Okay, I am a newbie to Vintage, but why is Vindicate not a standard card in Keeper?  I see pretty janky stuff like Fire/Ice as a staple and this card seems weak against everything but Mox Monkeys.  What am I missing?  Why is Vindicate not required?  It could be used to help Abyss to work correctly.  It could bolster the LD cards, and it could replace the dismantling blow I see in many decks.  Is this a preference thing or its there are good game reason for no Vindicates?
In addition to the reasons Z mentioned, it's slow and expensive for spot creature removal, and it's also a sorcery and would have to be cast main phase.


@Az - Can you de-mystify the Urza's Rage...There aren't too many decks that are going to get themselves below 10 life with the fetchlands out (and that costs 10RR)...it seems plow or edict would be better as creature removal.  Is it against mono-blue/gro to hit an early 'phid because it can't be countered?
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Smmenen
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« Reply #169 on: November 20, 2002, 05:51:48 pm »

I don't understand what the big deal with Urza's Rage is.  It's terrible as a Keeper SB card.  It is overcosting for what it does and the slots in Keeper's sideboard are too precious to use an overcosted lightning bolt with the very minimal advantage of being uncounterable. There are about 20 cards I would rather have before using Urza's Rage, let alone better burns spells:  Starting with lighting bolt and Psionic Blast -- at least those have a chance of really screwing over an early negator.  

Steve\n\n

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PsychoCid
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« Reply #170 on: November 20, 2002, 06:29:49 pm »

Okay, there's no need to be going back in time when we have better replacements, here.

Recall was replaced by Blessings which was replaced by Yawgmoth's Will.  It can do some neat things, but with the way things are, Will negates the need for it.  Timetwister was the other recursion card to consider, but as Zherb said, it didn't stick too well.

Soothsaying was used a while back and went in the Tome/Sylvan slot.  It's nifty, it's blue, it's less than card parity, and it's not needed.  Especially as things are right now, with fetchlands and all, Brainstorm is far more versatile and impressive.  (Note:  I've been promoting the return of cantrips in blue decks for a while, now :|)

About 324873240987321423 people responded to the Vindicate question, so I'm not going to bother =P

Lastly, I'm still not entirely sold on Dust Bowl, but I'm working on it.  The only experience I've had with it in Keeper is in mirror matches, where the opponent has had it, and I have not.  Had it been a wasteland in some of those games, I could have easily lost enough tempo for them to take over control (examples:  I would not have been able to cast Ancestral, I would have stalled for many turns due to lack of blue mana).  In another case, it sat there as I used my Wastelands to keep him under 3 mana while I beat with a complimentary Shaman.  Right now, I think I'd run it over a 4th Wasteland, but I'm still iffy about it over a 3rd (or 2nd if you've already replaced one with Grim Monolith).
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-CF-
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« Reply #171 on: November 20, 2002, 07:49:25 pm »

Quote
Quote Note:  I've been promoting the return of cantrips in blue decks for a while, now :|
Note: I've been playing blue cantrips for a while now Smile

--
Chris\n\n

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tek
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« Reply #172 on: November 21, 2002, 08:41:23 am »

I wasn't aware soothsayiing was used in keeper in the past and if it's already proven to be bad then I digress.  However, to say it's too mana intensive but then turn around and agree that wishing for a StP is not mana intensive is pretty bad. Spending uw2 to remove a jackal pup from the game is no worse then paying ux to top deck an answer.  With the current build, it seems that with all the fetch lands you're garunteed to get a lot card quality with the soothsaying.  I may be wrong, but it doesn't hurt to put it out there, no?    
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tek
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« Reply #173 on: November 21, 2002, 01:32:03 pm »

I forgot to mention how good soothsaying will be with the "stone" combo.
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Mon, Goblin Chief
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« Reply #174 on: November 21, 2002, 02:52:57 pm »

Soothsaying, opposed to Wish, is card disadvantage.

Soothsaying + GrimPower is really good, becoming an Vampiric Tutor every turn, but you'll usually want the tutors to find the combo, not after you already assembled it.
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Fishhead
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« Reply #175 on: November 21, 2002, 03:10:00 pm »

Quote
Quote I wasn't aware soothsayiing was used in keeper in the past and if it's already proven to be bad then I digress.

It was popular for a while on BD as a blue replacement for Sylvan.  It fell out of fashion in a wave of "Sylvan is great!" sentiment, rather than actually being proven "bad".  If you are curious about it, I certainly recommend trying it.  Theres something to be said for spending some mana EoT to increase your card quality.
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Freddie
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« Reply #176 on: November 21, 2002, 03:38:52 pm »

I agree with Fishhead (as usual) in that you should just try it out.

Not nessecarily in a rated tourney, since that is how I hac lost so many DCI points in the last 6 months...


Although I feel naked with out IMPULSES in my keeper, i am currently trying a version similar to Zherbus', and learning how to play it (thats the most important part)

i have read reports of how Weissman was still playing his "the Deck" a while after it had become obsolete, but was still schooling less expierenced players, just because he KNEW HIS DECK so fricken well.

I think that as long as the cards in your deck have a similar power level involved (aka, not playing personal Incarnation in the Morphling spot)... So that in the end, what it comes down to, is just knowing your deck really well, and playing your ass off!

Even if others disagree with some of your card choices.

Just gotta play what you feel best with, and with what you feel are the best choices in your 75 cards.

-Freddie\n\n

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tek
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« Reply #177 on: November 21, 2002, 09:29:43 pm »

Mon, wishing for a card is neither card advantage nor card disadvantage. It's card quality.  Cunning wish is simply replacing itself.

I agree that the soothsaying will be ass in the beginning of the game, but so are will and morphling.

I'm going to give the soothsaying a try at the next type 1 tourney. I will let you know my results.
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Schmakt
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« Reply #178 on: November 21, 2002, 10:39:54 pm »

Sorry if these things have been mentioned before... I've been following the thread, but damn, it's involved...

Anyway, What makes Brainstorm so much better than Impulse?  Just the lower cc?  Freddie?  You still running your Impulse keeper?  Sounds like the reason a lot of people like the Brainstorm is because you get to put stuff on top of your library to hide it from discard, but when I tried out Impulse, I often liked being able to get stuff away from the top of the library. (too many lands, Edict at the wrong time...)

And Timetwister.  I saw it mentioned once or twice in the last couple of pages, but then only as a footnote to sideboard discussion.  Zherbus, I *think* I read on one of these pages that you guys tried it out and didn't like it.  What's the problem with it?  I cut it awhile back and haven't really missed it, but the lack of recurssion really scares me these days. (If this was already discussed, does anyone remember what page?  I just skimmed everything and couldn't find it.)
-Thanks
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Mon, Goblin Chief
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« Reply #179 on: November 21, 2002, 10:50:22 pm »

Quote
Quote Mon, wishing for a card is neither card advantage nor card disadvantage. It's card quality.  Cunning wish is simply replacing itself.
I never said anything else, I just mentioned that Soothsaying is card disadvantage, what the Wishes are not.

Quote
Quote Soothsaying, opposed to Wish, is card disadvantage.
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