The word I've seen floating around on the boards is:

Collusion

A secret agreement between two or more parties for a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose.


As Mage of Dreams pointed out, any offer of a prize split or outside funds/cards is Bribery.  The rumor mill has been spilling that collusion is more severy than Bribery (as it actively involves both players...Bribery could be one sided).  Sticking with baseball, we're in Pete Rose territory...suspension or banning for life for both players.  

Is it a huge problem?  I was 4-0 at states, having fun kickin' butt with Goblin Bidding.  I was there to play, losing my last 3 matches.  I had other top players telling people to not draw to me if I asked (which I didn't).

In my opinion the game's meant to be played...period.  But the issue became serious a long time ago if it's happening in Montana.

I don't know if I'd call it arrogance.  I think it's a valid point that with a single land, the deck drops 3 different kinds of viable 1st turn prison conditions.



I don't know if "resolving" is the right word...A single activation of the Workshop for mana is all it takes to get the piece down.  As to  you knowing the power and weakness of the Workshop better than me, that's a moot point; we've no way to prove it in any sense but the rhetorical.  

I think the WelderMUD Wastelands/Strips are going to hit just as hard on your end...the deck runs 7 Mountains and auxillary Ancient Tombs for a reason...

Workshop.dec is not the deck to end all.  A powered Nether Void build throws it's fair share of Hymn/Duress/Cabal disruption your way.  You've already acknowledged Stifle's utility for the Pernicious.  But I think that the first black play can sway the game heavily, often a combination of Duress/Hymn if they go first, or Sinkhole if they draw.  They pack the Wasteland/Strip also, even more than WelderMUD, their focus on resource denial would make it a tough matchup.  Pyrostatic is your best friend.  

I'm not trashing the deck, I've just been focussing on it's lack of denial aspects.  The single Pillage just doesn't stack up like the guns the other decks throw in your way.  If you've got the tempo, you're gold...but a majority of the meta out there is based on taking your tempo, and making sure you never get it back.

Yikes, I better put my Workshop's away.  Just kiddin'.  I think that as of two days ago, Trinisphere became a force in my of the Workshop.dec/prison builds out there.  So if you go first and drop the Shaman, they still have the opportunity to drop Trinisphere the following turn, which will take the Monkey seven to pop.

That not withstanding, if the Prison plays first, they're going to be shooting for Chalice of the Void for 1, as it gets your Monkey (and they're thinking Chain Lightning/Lightning Bolt/etc.).  With access to Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere, they slow you down by at least a turn on Scepter/Fire/Ice/Slith, making room for their own Tangle Wire/Smokestack drops.

Sideboard options help a bunch with this matchup, and you've got the burn to waste on Welders but make sure you don't forget about the Fatties that you may be wasting Shrapnel Blast on (Karn, Trisk, Platinum Angel).  They will be packing their own Rack and Ruin for your Isochrons, Moxen, and even the Great Furnace.  It's actually a match-up I'd like to play out 10-12 times.  If you've got some experience in the Workshop.dec match-ups, please post in the future.

I forsee danger from the Workshop.dec camp (may not be a concern in your area).

A first turn Chalice of the Void for 2...yikes, you can't even Naturalize that puppy, and you lose half your creatures.

Many WelderMUD/TNT builds run Blood Moon sideboard...by 2nd/3rd turn, you could be looking at 17 Mountains and 5 Forests, and if you've got to use a Naturalize on the Blood Moon, you're leaving Chalice/Tangle Wire/Smokestacks on the board longer than you'd like.  

Note: TRINISPHERE...legal as of two days ago, and definitely a first turn drop in Workshop.dec, and it costs 2G to get rid of with a Naturalize, giving them time to set up lock.  

Root maze is a must that 2nd game.  I'd be careful with those Tolarian Winds though...if they haven't drawn into a Goblin Welder yet, you could be filling their graveyard with some nasty stuff that they'll be able to throw back at you with a tap/sac/exchange.

I'm a pretty serious WelderMUD player, and I'm pretty sure than people other than myself are playing Chalice of the Void in addition to the lock components you mentioned.  I would forsee a difficult 1st game against a prison deck that's packing them...set to one, it stalls your whole engine.

Is Timetwister included just for Power kicks?  It seems like if you get artifacts out of your deck and into your graveyard for Welder, that would be a good thing.

Lastly, your red mana base is in a lot of danger from a full compliment of Wastelands, not to mention a resolved Blood Moon guarantees that you can't cast any blue spells off anything but your Mox Sapphire/Black Lotus...2 out of 60 ain't good odds.  

I realize that's a lot of criticism without much suggestions for improvements.  I'd focus first on mana base, taking into account Blood Moon and Wastelands (which you'll see from many TNT/WelderMUD builds), and heavily recommend Rack and Ruin sideboard, as well as possibly including Gorilla Shaman...as I forsee you playing first in the second game of the match against a heavy prison deck, and you may be able to drop it first turn, gaining you significant advantage towards blowing up Chalice/Sphere.  If they're playing Trinisphere, don't even bother with the Monkey.

I definitely didn't say you couldn't win with Chalice/Trinisphere down, I just hinted at some of the Workshop.dec possibilities.

It's the successive turns that really start to hurt, with Tangle Wire tapping down, Smokestack starting to eat resources, and additional Sphere of Resistance further pushing their Workshop/Ancient Tomb advantage.

I think that the deck has promise, especially with the Ornithoper/Walker's coming in for free.  But well timed counters are going to be aimed at Skullclamp and especially Welder, and certain deck types are going to be problematic.

Please post some match-up results as they pop up.

Cheers.

Same warnings I threw to the Elf/Clamp deck tonight.  In our environment, you'd see Mishra's Workshop/Ancinet Tomb (Or land and Mox), into Chalice of the Void for 1 or a Sphere of Resistance.

That's a full round of delay, that you can't get around.  And Trinisphere became legal (and maindeck in many Workshop.dec) today, so all of your spells cost at LEAST 3 now.

A Chalice for 1 wrecks: Welder, Skullclamp, Cursed Scroll, Spellbomb...that's a pretty heavy hit.  And I know I pack 5 strip effects for your Factories.

You've got the Rack and Ruin sided, I might even Mox Monkey it and pray for rain (in the form of a 3 mana hand).  I honestly don't see solid suggestions for improvement, other than picking up some Moxen to make those Frogmite/Enforcers real fly out early.

Just playing devil's advocate for my Workshop.dec cronies (I'm a big fan of the little green men), I'd have to say that they're going to give you 1st and 2nd turn trouble in the form of Chalice of the Void/Sphere of Resistance that even the Elvish Spirit Guide and the single mainboard Naturalize will have trouble dealing with.  The Trinisphere effect won't be as heavy...heck, you've got some 3 cost in there anyway.

There should be 1 Tinker in there in place of Fabricate.

Snake Basket is quality for Smokestack food, and Root Maze will be your 1st turn drop in game 2...but those scary Intruder Alarms give the Goblin Welder's pretty explosive access to stuff you don't want...Skullclamp seems to be popping up a lot lately, but I wouldn't be surprised by a lot of Chalice for 2 to stop Naturalize, Hivemaster, Herald, Priest of Titania

In all honestly, it's going to come down to speed and draw.  Man, it'd be real funny to be packing Hibernation in the sideboard.  I'd be fearful of early combo, i.e. Dragon and Trix.

I tend to agree...putting it out and having it Stifled or destroyed without a single activation is always a turnoff.

I've been thinking that I should use my Workshops/Ancient Tombs to make it a more effient 1st turn threat, but I simply can't pull myself away from my aggro nature...I think there's definitely potential in a control styled deck that can afford to drop them consistently 1st turn.

I'd hope so, it happens today...

They become legal in Constructed on the following days:
•   Mirrodin         October 20, 2003
•   Darksteel         February 20, 2004
•   Fifth Dawn        June 20, 2004

Bam.  I'd say Trinisphere over Pyrostatic Pillar, I'd rather that my opponents cheap spells cost more (because you've got the mana base/acceleration to cover it), than to take damage from playing my own Moxen and Welders.  If your environment is mostly unpowered, Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void should push your opponents' plays up a full turn, buying you the time to set up the Fatty rush.

Bosh is decent for the Fling, but I'd run a second Trisk...valuable removal ability versus other Welders, not to mention man-lands or any SuiBlack creatures.  I personally run 2 Karn's, and 2 Solemn Simulacrums, 3 Su-chi, 2 Triskelion, 1 Platinmum Angel, 4 Juggernauts...if that's not enough beef to get the job done, you need to seriously examine your meta.

And my solution to Landstill is to run Stifle sideboard, with Tropicals main...of course there's low Misdirection in my area, so I run the Ancestral/Timewalk also.  And "sub-optimal" Wonder...yeah, I like my creatures to have an evasion ability, I'm weak like that.

The obvious Elvish Spirit Guide would help with the Sphere of Resistance problem, not to mention generating green for your Xantid Swarm...but other than that, you're going to just roll over to Stax or WelderMUD (with any of their lock conditions: Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, or even Chalice of the Void for 0).  

And there's only 18 mana sources that are "permanent", a countered Carnival of Souls leaves you relying on a shaky base, and grasping for Dark Ritual.  

I'd cut at least one Tendrils of Agony, and make a more consistent black mana base to cover Necropotence...cutting Spoils of the Vault at the same time.  And I'd have to argue with the single Enlightened Tutor, as you've only got 7 possible white mana sources, counting Black Lotus, which I don't think you're ever going to want to sac for triple white.  I can't really see a black spell I'd like to put under the Chrome Mox (Blood Pet?), so I'd end up making Red, and that's counterproductive.

That's just my first run through, if you could talk through your turn strategies, it be easier to tweak...

Can someone throw out a WelderMUD list on with Trinisphere, I haven't seen one since the Forums reset.

Just hazarding a guess, but I think Rack and Ruin is the best Wizards is going to give us until either Fifth Dawn, or the set after...

White now has the ability to destroy all Enchantments at instant speed.

Shatterstorm has been printed 2RR, destroy all artifacts at Sorcery speed.

I would not be surprised if they had a 2GG, destroy all artifacts at instant speed.

It'll bleed together with green's current role as the artifact hate-ness, while bringing conclusion to the "artifact block"

Speculation aside, you're going to have to settle for 3 cost removal...