In what list?  That question makes no sense based on no list.  I don’t play either in the main, and 4x revoker in the board

Everyone will have their own opinion, but my opinion on Sol Ring is that it the best artifact mana of choice aside from MAYBE lotus, and I stress maybe.  While lotus can obviously be nuts, there have been lists in the past which didn’t play it.  I doubt there has ever been a shop deck without the maximum legal amount of Sol Rings.  I’d sooner cut a mox, though I’ve always played all 9 artifact mana when possible.  Cut a city for Sol Ring in that list of course.

There’s 3 in the board and you can easily replace 1-2 Precursor and 1-2 Wurmcoil for 2-4 Hellkite

What creature decks running around?  Are you playing in my metagame too?  If your metagame has a lot of aggro and you’re netdecking my list, then you should be changing the cards to fit your metagame.  My area has forgemasters and Time Vaults.  Oh yeah.  And it doesn’t hit a single creature non mana permanent in my maindeck.

This whole precursor argument is so weak as you only need one on the board to have a threat.  If you play forgemaster and they hit it with a removal spell, it dies too.  This is true shop aggro that tries to hurt the opponent as much as possible without affecting itself.  Same reason there’s no sphere.  This just needs to disrupt and smash face.

As someone whose basically played nothing but shops for the last 8 years, here is my opinion:

VS HIGH CALIBER WELDER USING OPPONENT

In this situation, Goblin welder is often the much bigger threat, as they will know the nuances of when to use welder and when not to, as well as targets and timing.  There are VERY few players at most tournaments that I would consider high caliber.  Generally the players who I consider here have extensive knowledge playing it in either Stax, Slaver, or something similar.

VS AVERAGE OPPONENT

In this situation, I’d much rather see Welder than Heretic.  The reason being that most players will be caught on inexperience and can easily be beaten when they don’t know how to use welder properly.  Heretic is an issue because it literally sits there, firing from the hip off basic mana, and is in itself a win condition.  Welder stops you, but they can only weld out so many precursor golems and wurmcoil engines before the advantage becomes too overwhelming

WITH GORILLA SHAMAN OR Karn

Obviously when Shaman or Karn come into the equation, welder becomes an absolutely dominant force

Start a new thread for your list and post reasons for your choices, playtesting results, and the like and you’ll have a way better chance at getting feedback.  Posting it in here isn’t going to do that much.

Also, List Update as of June:

4x Mishra’s Workshop
4x Mishra’s Factory
4x Ancient Tomb
1x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy

1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault

4x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Precursor Golem
4x Wurmcoil Engine

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Tangle Wire
3x Null Rod
1x Trinisphere

You’ve seen one, there’s a 5c version no one has seen

While I agree, that wasn’t an option given the thread.  I have an Ankh list that I haven’t shared with the community that I’ve been testing/updating on and off since 2006.  That runs 4 thorn, 0 sphere (like all my lists)

That being said, the strength of Ankh is as a turn 1/2 drop.  Every fetchland in your opponent’s deck become self inflicted lava axes before they even take a turn.  If you play turn 1 double ankh or Ankh/Metamorph, you’re looking at 9 damage PER fetchland.  Combined with Chalices/Thorns it can be insane amounts of damage.

If building shop aggro without spheres, why not go back to an old standard  Ankh of Mishra, its a lava axe on every fetchland they play, kills gush and autowins dragon randomly, and is just a massive source of damage for 2 colorless mana

Triturator 2K12 - The Ankh is Back

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Ankh of Mishra (Fetchland is 5 damage with 1 Ankh, 9 damage for 2 so it works as a great turn 1 metamorph target if you can ankh/metamorph against blue)
3x Orb of Dreams
1x Trinisphere
4x Slash Panther
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Precursor Golem
3x Steel Hellkite
4x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Mishra’s Workshop
4x Mishra’s Factory
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
2x City of Traitors
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy

SB:

4x Jester’s Cap
4x Grafdiggers’ Cage
4x Wurmcoil Engine
3x Relic of Progenitus

I love how I’ve converted you from playing Panther Stax to this  And trust me, I know you may not like the MD precursors as much as the 2/1, but like I said that night the damage pays off in the long run.  2/1 is an annoyance, this deck is straight up shop tempo with a clock

Way too much negative synergy for it to be played.  There’s a better replacement for whatever you are trying to do.

To the guy who played shop aggro that T8ed, I’m the guy who was working with you on your list and with Orb of Dreams on Cockatrice.  Nice to meet you on here!

With the amount of destruction out recently, I've been favoring Wurmcoils in the main, as well as Masticore in the sideboard.  Regeneration rocks, as does pinging Confidants, snapcasters, lotus cobras, slash panthers, revokers and more.

Just reread the card and it's good, but arguably weaker than I'd originally thought.  I will be testing it as a 4x of in the sb, however definitely will not be maindeck for now.  Here is what I'm playing:

Jester 2012

4x Mishras Workshop
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
2x City of Traitors
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Strip Mine

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt

4x Lodestone Golem
4x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Wurmcoil Engine

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Orb of Dreams
4x Tangle Wire
4x Jester's Cap

SB:

4x Relic of Progenitus
4x Grafdiggers Cage
3x Forcefield
3x Masticore
1x Trinisphere

While I think it’s partially deck dependant, Metamorph in the main deals with Blightsteel and Oath targets for the most part in the maindeck.  I’d say SB 3/4, but I don’t like playing cards that can literally be 100% dead and played around in the main.

Play it against a drain deck and you stop tinker and tezzeret from searching, but is that really worth having maindeck just for those 2 cards?  Any of those decks run Hurkyl’s or something in the main, which negates that as they do what they always do, EOT hurkyl’s untap/win
Shop decks are rarely affected due to the lack of crucibles being played, etc.
Fish style decks are in the same boat as shops here

That being said:

IF you have enough Oath and Ichorid in your area that you actually find yourself playing more than 50% of your matches against them, I’d maindeck it.  Otherwise SB

Just my 2 cents

While it's been said before, bazaar doesn't seem to fit here.  It doesn't tap for mana, and you have no way of abusing it.  That means you're actually using bazaar as was meant, which is card filtering to a negative degree.  While this can work when digging rapidly, it seems there is little benefit to playing it unless it is late game.  Especially with all the spheres, I think it could be more deadly in than out.

Factory I've always been a fan of playing 4 of in shop aggro when there's room

Arabian Nights U/G/R Zoo

4x Kird Ape
4x Rukh Egg
4x Bird Maiden
4x Ghazban Ogre
4x Naf's Asp
4x Wyuli Wolf
4x Flying Men
4x Serendib Efreet
4x Unstable Mutation
4x City of Brass
6x Island
6x Mount
6x Forest
2x Desert

And yes, this deck would be almost obliterated by City in a Bottle except for forests and islands

Here is my mana base at the moment

4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy

4x Metalworker
5x Moxen
1x Crypt
1x Vault
1x Sol Ring

Here is a list of every card that sees any play in Vintage from the set:

Bazaar of Baghdad
City of Brass
Kird Ape (It's a stretch!)
Library of Alexandria
Mountain
Old Man of the Sea

If they have library, they don't play Bazaars and there is 99.9% chance it's the only card from the set in the deck.  It will never come in against a deck running Library.  If it does and you win, then you would have done better with an Alpha Myr most likely.

I think it's more along the lines of the Mana Base, not lock pieces.  You don't need to change up the lock pieces to play welder, you need to play at least 5 red lands.  The discussion should be more along the lines of Welder/Artifact Destruction in the SB and a slower deck vs Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors and a faster deck without the SB hate.

For me I'd say my most hated card is Tarmogoyf.  Not because I have problems beating it, but because I remember a time when different decks used different kill conditions.  When there are mono blue Merfolk lists that splash green for Tarmogoyf, we have a problem here

It doesn't but...Seasinger and Dominating Licid would work lol.  

Back in the day, the deck dominated Ichorid.  With Granite Shards, Ensnaring Bridges, Tormod's Crypts, and more Ichorid was an easy match.

I'm not taking anything away from your personal success, but I just feel that if you are winning games with City in a Bottle then you are probably already winning.  If you don't drop it on turn 1 and Ichorid gets a Bazaar Activation off then it is effectively neutralized.  It is a dedicated hate card that works against nothing but Ichorid decks, and even so you'd need to also play GY hate to make it relevant.  7-8 cards solely against Ichorid seems like a lot, however, I do not know what your maindeck looks like and if you're that hurt by them.  Precursor Golem and 3/3 buddies chump 2/2 zombies all day.  As do Wurmcoil Engine and if they blow him up, the 3/3 pieces he leaves behind.

Sphere of Resistance is brutally symmetrical, and when you not only have to run Mountains and Barbarian Ring, but Bazaar instead of Land Drops, the mana becomes VERY significant.  Uba Lists ran 2 threats, and then got to a point where there were 0 threats and 3 ensnaring Bridge main with only B-ring as a win condition.  The argument would be at the cost of smokestacks, and going to 3 Ensnaring Bridge and a 2nd Karn (or Dupe and Trike, it doesn't matter they all work)

With regards to Cap, if you can honestly tell me you would rather play Workshop/Mox/Lodestone than Workshop/Mox/Jester's Cap against a Gush deck, Oath Deck, Tezzeret Deck, Doomsday/Lab maniac Deck, etc, then I will agree to disagree and chalk it up to different styles of play.  In the years of Vintage tournament play with Shops, the only card that has caused more first turn scoops is Trinisphere when it was unrestricted.  

Shop decks and Ichorid decks are the only relevant decks I can think of off hand that don't just lose to a turn 1 Cap resolving if they can't get an answer or win condition in hand immediately.

I have, and fairly in depth I'll explain the issue with it.  Generally speaking, the notion of a first turn mox is very strong.  Especially with the association of having many artifacts.

Pros: Extremely strong when you have chalice in hand
Cons: Not so much without Chalice, as it can't cast Sol Ring or Mana Vault and you only have 5 moxes or a lotus for a turn

I'm not going to deny dropping a mox, opal, chalice, tomb, lodestone would be pretty spicy.  That being said, look how things play out without Chalice:

Possible opening Hand: Tomb, Thorn, Mox, Opal, Metamorph, Lodestone, Wasteland

You an go Tomb, Mox, Mox, but then what?  You can play Thorn, but you can't play Lodestone and effectily that Opal isn't being used.  

Another hand:

Workshop, Mox Opal, Wasteland, Mana Vault, Precursor Golem, Tangle Wire, Thorn of Amethyst.

Now here, you can immediately go play Workshop/Vault Precursor Golem, which gives you an active opal that can't play anything for 1 mana
If the workshop was an Ancient Tomb, you still couldn't play Precursor Golem because the Opal wouldn't be active (you would only have Vault/Opal)
If the Precursor was Lodestone Golem, you could play Shop/Vault/Lodestone/Opal/Thorn, and then you get into a situation where it is better.  

So the issue for me boils down to the over-reliance on roughly 10 cards, and the fact that it often sits around.  Rishadan Ports sit around, but they are really good for when you are sitting around.

That being said, I have NOT tested it in a 5c variant or one with welders, and in those cases you may have a better argument for it over a land.  Personally I had to pick between City of Traitors and Rishadan Port, and picked a 3rd port instead of the Mox Opal.  

Chronicles cards aren't affected, and as such I couldn't see any merit in seriously running a City in a Bottle.  Aside from Bazaars, most people don't play a single card from Arabian Nights.  It is rare to see AN ones as well, as most of the pimped out ones I've seen run foil 7e ones.  I still vote for AN, but sadly that's just me.

Now that I think of it, I would argue that there is a better chance of seeing an Arabian Nights Kird Ape.  Definitely a good way for shops to stop the ape 

That being said, for fun factor, winning with it is king

I remember when this was the price for a playset of revised birds of paradise!  Oh man.  Snapcaster is way better lol.  Type 2 players have it so good

In Vintage, I'd love to see a U/R Fish/Burn deck.  Ninja of the Deep Hours and Snapcaster = badassery at its best

I am not saying that Chalice is an autoinclude in a shop deck, 4x Chalice AND 1x Trinisphere are boarded in my deck for when I'm on the play.  That being said, I believe in that list it is incorrect to run Lightning Bolt over Chalice, as without the explosive power of City of Traitors and Ancient Tombs that MUD has, you need to be cutting off mana or attacking.  

This is why I don't play Red or 5c stax.  Recall, Vampiric Tutor, Crop Rotation, Imperial Seal, STP, etc all get cut off.  If I were to play Red now, I wouldn't play without Bazaars or Jester's Cap.  I maindeck cap is, and with Red, you get Welder/Bazaar which makes it even better.

The Jester

Changes I would make today:
-4 Uba Mask
+4 Lodestone Golem
Open slot: Karn, Silver Golem

Yep.  That's it.  Not much has changed since then.

Sideboard would be 4x Tormod's Crypt, 3x Ensnaring Bridge and 8 Metagame slots

TheShop, your list has some interesting things it is trying to do, but where you are missing the strength of Red is you are only playing Welder.  While Welder is good, having only 5 mountains/Ruby/Lotus to cast a welder which also don't let you cast SPhere/Thorn turn one is a heavy loss.  The only way to compensate would be running Magus of the Moon or something else that would establish red as being better than colorless.  It is very hard nowadays to mix the two like we used to.


The only issues I see here are not running Chalice of the Void (I assume for running Bolt) and the  one of Solemn Simulacrum.  I would argue that running a solemn over the 4th Welder would be incorrect.  Solemn is useful when you draw him, but Workshop has no draw engine since Vroman's Bazaar Engine.  To put a mediocre one-of in the deck can be good or bad, but generally speaking aiming for consistency in a workshop deck is almost always going to pay off more.

So my opinion:

-4 Lightning Bolt
-1 Solemn Simulacrum

+4 Chalice of the Void
+1 Goblin Welder

As someone who has been playing Stax since the 4x Trinisphere days, I can tell you Workshop Trinisphere does nothing against waste your shop go.  Ancient Tomb, Mox, Mox Lodestone Golem does nothing about Land, Mox, Mox Oath.  If you have the chalice, you win.  But that's like Oath going first and play Orchard Mox Oath, and they have that statistically often as you have Workshop/Mox/Lodestone.  You still need another card to seal the deal, they don't.

People forget that Lodestone is non-artifact.  First turn Lodestone Golem without a Chalice isn't yet a lock.  Land, Mox Nature's Claim.  These are all common plays. 

All combo decks have played Hurkyl's Recall and/or Rebuild to up their own storm count.  They also usually just say GG if they cast it end of turn.  That's the problem.  You can lock away all you want, if they can get a few lands, cast one EOT, and go off, you lose.

Being beat for years by Rich M (Shockwave)'s U/R Landstill deck taught me more about workshops and card relevancy than anyone will learn from an article.  When you are constantly being grilled by the best and losing, it drives you.  While I did put more hours into playing than most people should; having Rich show up at tournaments and constantly reteach me lessons about card advantage (not verbally.  By smashing my face in)  Rich was the reason I cut Sword of Fire and Ice, as well as cards like Sphere of Resistance.

For anyone who wants to read what got me into shops, this 100 card tournament report was what made me want to play shops.  I sold/traded everything I had to get my shops, and within a few weeks had a T1.5 deck (pre-split from Vintage).  After that I finally picked up power and have never looked back or played any other archetype at a tournament.  I want every untap to be dreaded, as I want every draw to be a threat immediately.  I have always said and believed that when I have a workshop deck that will tap out every turn and play the biggest threat possible consistently, I can retire from my search for the perfect Workshop deck.