In the testing I have done in Type 1.5 with no Vamp / Mystical / Demonic / Ancestral / Gush to further along the combo it pulls it off more or less consistently.  In Type 1 your far more consistent because of these and the deck benefits further from it.  It's not a two card combo, its more of a benefit for playing both Vision and Brainstorm as it works with either.  It gives you a two turn window on either card to Predict also.  Even if it just cantrips it produces +2.5 +2.5 to a tog which is -.5/-.5 from a non Mox discard Thirst which some people were running.  However most of the time it is +4/+4.  It's worth testing as its more solid than AK which on its own just isn't solid enough without Intuition powering it.  

Test it out, you might be pleasantly surprised.

With Night's Whisper and Serum Visions GAT can radically change into a more efficient Predict based deck.  If you Brainstorm / Vision you can Predict to pump tog +4/+4.  Predict can also be cast on non acceleration draws on turn 3 before the draw step with either Vision or Brainstorm to net you two cards and a counter on Dryad.  Predict + Whisper are both non misdirectable and are online turn 1-3 where as AK takes time to develop if it does at all since most versions don't run Intuitions.  It also isn't a dead or close to dead card in the Hulk matchup.  Between Predict / Whisper / Gush and Ancestral you should have enough draw to give control fits again.  Whisper's and Predict aren't as powerful as Gush but they are certainly passable as a viable card.

// GAT
// 0cc
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
// 1cc
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
// 2cc
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Predict
3 Mana Drain
3 Fire / Ice
3 Night's Whisper
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
// 3cc
2 Psychatog
2 Cunning Wish
1 Yawgmoth's Will
// 5cc
4 Force of Will
1 Gush
// Land
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island

I'm glad I could form the basis of a idea that would turn into your wost post ever.  I clearly inspire great things from people :lol:.

Mike

I initialy perfered to keep it low key, thats why I didn't post it till after Waterbury as I figgured you would play it.  Its not big deal, I thought you just blew me off.  If you want to talk about some idea's I had just PM me, they might help make this deck more meta relivent.

Mike

Sorry about posting this stupid thing.  If Smmenen would ever of replied to his e-mail I wouldn't of.  Regardless sorry for getting Colin (di) in trouble or something.  Even though I solved the Mud / Slavery / Big O matchups that were the major issue for this deck I just won't bother progressing this any further.  Since its just pissing people off.  Not like anyone even listens about Spirit Guilds or Spheres anyways.

Out,
Mike

I think it depends a lot on if your trading or buying power.

Personally I traded for power 9 last year and through last and this year I have the Lotus / Ruby / Emerald / Pearl / Walk Beta and Ancestral Alpha.  If your trading I find that it helps to first get UL in any order that they can come to you.  If you do get a Beta / Alpha version just trade it for a UL one + stuff, either 2 power 9 or just itself or another better mox and more trade stock to keep on moving up like Shop / Bazaar / LoA / Mask whatever.

If your buying it depends on what you want to play.  If your playing Big O you get Emerald / Lotus and don't so much worry about getting the rest of the 9.  If your getting Keeper or other decks that have either base or secondary color of blue you want this order.

1. Ancestral
2. Mox Sapphire
3. Mox your primary or main color
4. Mox 3rd color if applicable
5. Mox 4th color if applicable
6. Mox 5th color or Lotus if you don't need 5 Moxes 9 (Keeper etc.)
7. Black Lotus
8. Time Walk.

The reason why lotus is so low is that it often cost nearly 2-3 times what other moxes cost and about equal to a Ancestral + Mox.  Your just better off spending your money wisely rather than just going for the flashier Lotus.

Hope this helps,
Mike

Update with a lot of the idea's brought up throught this discusion.

// Long.dec
// 0cc
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
// 1cc
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
// 2cc
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Burning Wish
1 Time Walk
// 3cc
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Death Wish
1 Necropotence
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
// 4cc
1 Tendrils of Agony
// 5cc
1 Memory Jar
// 6cc
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
// Land
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

Comments?

Mind sharing your list Smmenen?

Na I had that, he wouldn't give me crap other than 4 cities :p.  It just seemed like a good fit.  He might of leaked it who knows.  Its a obvious card anyways.  It might replace Cabal or Spirit Guild its up in the air.

Mike

I was the one that suggested Crop Rotation to Karv in the first place.  I like it I just don't have room currently.

Elvish Spirit Guild x1 and Chrome Mox are interchangable.  They both have pro's and cons.  Its realy up to you which you want to play.  I liked them both in testing when I ran both.

Mike

@ MoreFling
Yes Glimmervoid doesn't shine verses workshop deck, however what is a valid replacement?  I'm not sold on Dig.  Maybe 2 Underground Seas or Undiscovered Paradise.  The alternatives aren't that amazing and Glimmervoid fixes your mana base without needing to utilize C. Spheres.

@ Wollblad
You handle Chalice / Mud decks post sideboard with Seal of Cleansing or Hurkles or what have you.  I'm not much a fan of FOW in this either as it just isn't easily supported.  Maybe 1 Sideboard as a interesting Death Wish target, but there are better targets usually.

Consult is what it is.  I don't really have the room to make a 4th wish included and I wouldn't play it over my single Burning Wish.  I haven't used consult in any of the games I've played so far so I have to test some more and let you know.  I see your reasoning though.

Elvish Spirit Guilds are the main reason this wins on turn 1-2 and not turn 2-3.  The Spirit Guilds are there to allow you to maximize your black and blue mana.  I haven't found the lack of business spells to be a issue since you have so many tutors and rarely only need one draw 7 if any to win.  The only thing I would cut a ESG for would be Chrome Mox which i'm debating.

@Nehptis
Sorry didn't see your post.  My bad for not looking harder.  Any ways I agree with your core list with the exception of the fact that it doesn't contain Death Wish x3 on it.  Without Death Wish long is dead in the water.  

Crop Rotation is interesting but i'm torn with either having G mana from Guilds to help me go off or verses having Crop Rotation tutor for Academy about mid way of going off.  Spirit Guild often helps me get the necessary mana to cast Draw 7's / Vault / Sol Ring / Cabal Ritual / etc. very in the combo process so that I don't have to eat up valuable Black or Blue mana or use my rainbow lands up to cast colorless sources.  Also this deck wins fine without ever drawing / playing Academy.  Academy is more of a nice draw than a essential mana component like Lotus / Lions Eye / 6 Rituals tend to be.

Frantic Search doesn't return the type of advantage that I would like.  Without Academy it nets you -1 mana advantage and color selectivity similar to that of Chromatic Sphere.  It only regains mana advantage if you are on turn 3 (which is really not good), or you have Academy which you normally don't.

I explained Chrome Mox above.

Grim Monolith is cute and all but at best its a colorless Cabal Ritual.  Ritual is almost always better since this is base black.  

By cutting ESG you just destroy the speed of this deck.  You take the potential for turn 1 and cut it sharply and turn 2 also gets cuts sharply.  I've tried this deck with and without ESG and frankly I swear by them.  There to key to my mana base as a colorless filler that I really don't want to axe them, except maybe 1 for 1 with a Chrome Mox.

That's basically what I stated about Xantid so far.  

Does anyone have any comments on improving the deck as well as sideboard considerations or the like?  

Mike

Actually I had and liked Chrome Mox, I just cut it for a Cabal Ritual spot.  I might find a way for it to be included again.  Maybe over Elvish Spirit Guild?  Its worth considering.  

I just find that Chromatic Sphere isn't needed since you went from needing red mana to resolve wish to needing black mana to resolve wish.  Your 6 Ritual's 1 Lotus 1 Lions Eye help make your black mana fine.  In all my games I just didn't need it to kill you.  I was also very close mana wise in about half of them from not going off.  The one mana extra that you have to commit to Chromatic Sphere can cost you a game as often as it can win you one.  Also Elvish Spirit Guilds help fill out your colorless mana requirements nicely.  Try out the new list.  It plays similar to the old one but has a new learning curve associated with it.  

The problem with running to much disruption, i.e. 4 Swarms + 1-4 Duress / Force of Wills / Etc. is that it slows down the streamline engine of the deck.  You have a myriad of must counter spells in this deck from Draw 7's to Swarms to Necro to Bargain to outright uncountable spells in Minds Desire / Trendles sans Stifle like cards.  I just find that any more disruption takes away from the efficiency of this deck.  My version is all about speed and consistency.  You could always sideboard a Force of Will or Abeyance sideboard if you wanted though since you can Death Wish for anything.  Most of the time you just won't need it.

Mike

Mox Diamond
I find that turn 1 you often have a non Academy land to pitch with it.  It also allows you to draw into a land later on and play it.  Every now and then its a issue like 15-33% at most in my various experience with this and older long variants.  It is also a great card to draw into off a draw 7, as you usually get 1-2 lands that way.  Combine this with the fact that you often laid a land this turn and its a valuable asset.  It just makes your mana base smother.  Its won me more games than its lost me for sure.

Glimmervoid
I just think his 9th + 10th land are horrid.  Glimmer is fine in my testing out of 30 games in real life / apprentice I get its only been bad once, and even then I just cast it and used it on turn 2 and won the game that turn.  The key part is it dies and the end of the turn, and you have a pile of artifacts to support it.  

Mike

@xrizzo
I echo your feelings on Swarm.

@ Methuselahn
I once thought that Cabal Ritual was a replacement for Lions Eye Diamond, and in some ways it is.  However Elvish Spirit Guild is more of a speed replacement.  Cabal rarely gets you more than 3 mana as you often don't cast more than 1 draw 7 if any at all.  Also you rarely hit threshold so its just a +1 mana swing much like Elvish Spirit Guild.  It however is useful like Lions Eye's Diamond was in regards to being Willable while Elvish Spirit Guild isn't as its removed from the game upon use.  I find 2 to be the right number of Cabal Rituals though you could make a case for 3.

I don't so much cast Xantid with ESG as much as I just use it as a way to max out my UUU or BBB mana off Lions / Lotus / Academy / Ritual x6.  I have enough green sources without Spirit Guild to cast Swarm every game (10 Lands, Mox Diamond,  Mox Emerald, Lotus Petal, 4 Spirit Guild 1 Black Lotus +/- 1 Lions Eye Diamond).  

I'm just not sure on Spoil's being needed or worth it.  Yes it can get Death Wish without a huge amount of pain, however it can easily backfire on you also.  Its just to much of a risk that could leave you in bolt range or close to it.  For example you spoils for 12 and then Death Wish down to 3 life and you get bolted.   Its just to mathematically probable for me.  That and you have enough Draw / Tutors any ways.

I'm also considering various cards though I just don't have room right now.
1. Fastbond
Just lets you produce more 5c lands while going off.

2. Crop Rotation
Lets you lay a land this turn and tutor for a Academy

3. Abeyance / Orim's Chant
The 5th Swarm so to Speak

4. Channel
Just a a colorless mana producer to further maximize your blue and black mana.

And some other stuff, but more on that later.

Thanks for replying, keep the comments coming.
Mike

Duress / Xantid are interchangeable, it's a metagame call.  The thing is your meta is weird.  Tog w/ Scepter and Fire / Ice isn't optimal.  Removal in tog has always been a   to me.  It just isn't needed in T1.  Maybe 1 Deed main but that's about it.  Tog is creature removal.  Scepter is also bad in Tog but whatever.  Keeper only run 4-5 Removal.  But this isn't about other decks, its about making Long better.  This is a attempt at a build for a optimal meta.  

Thoughts anyone?

Elvish Spirit Guild arn't there to protect me.  Xantid Swarm is.  Elvish Spirit Guild is essentially 4 Green Lotus Petals that aren't Willable.  

Swarm is used as a defensive mechanism verses control as once it swings it ignores future Force of Wills / Mana Drains / Stifle / Etc. drawn off draw 7's.  Yes its deal able with creature removal, but keeper just plays 4 (2 Swords, 1 Balance, 1 Fire / Ice) and Tog plays none main deck sans Deed which is clearly to slow.  

Mike

Hi,

I've been working independently and with Kaervimon on this deck for a few weeks now.  My version is fairly different than his.  Most notably we disagree on the relevance of Elvish Spirit Guild and Chromatic Sphere.  I find that Elvish Spirit Guild helps the consistency of the deck as well as speeds it up and allows you to save Black and Blue mana for the spells that matter.  I also don't run Chromatic Sphere as the deck is now black based and not red based due to the Burning Wish to Death Wish shift.  Chromatic Sphere does little more than eat up a mana to draw a card in this version.  If you pace yourself with ESG's you rarely find color selection a issue.  Here are the results for my variation of the deck through goldfish testing.

Turn 1
3 Times
Turn 2
4 Times
Turn 3
1 Time

I will run more testing and post further results in the future as Kaervimon will with his build.  Here is the version I'm currently playing.  Note that there is no Sideboard as I am not finished working on it yet.  This deck is still in the preliminary stages of growth thus it is open to improvement.  It is about as consistent as the older version of long, even with the extremely important loss of Lions Eye.  

// Long.dec
// 0cc
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
// 1cc
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
// 2cc
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Burning Wish
1 Time Walk
// 3cc
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Death Wish
1 Necropotence
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
// 4cc
1 Tendrils of Agony
// 5cc
1 Memory Jar
// 6cc
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
// Land
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy

The build is fairly strait forward if you understand other variants of long.dec.  It plays basically the same way except that it uses ESG x4 and Cabal Ritual x2 in place of Lions Eye Diamond x3.

Thanks for reading, questions / comments welcome.

Mike