.. so finally i think we can agree that this card has only one evident use... it makes people discuss on the stack...
...but i really doubt that this card will be played in Vintage...
... for the same mana cost you have far better options...

... you did not mention the intuition AK blue engine which is fantastic with Snapcaster mage... try it trust me...


CARON

very nice and useful job!
thnx
CARONDIMONIO

ok,

thank you very much
i don't know if i'll be able to come to play the day before leaving but in case I'll pm you.

thanks again,

CARONDIMONIO

Hi,

i hope that this is a good place to post this thread, if not i'm sorry for my mistake...
the thing is that i'll be in new york city (near c.park) from the 10th to the 22nd of August
and i would llike to ask if there is a good shop there where i can buy some cards for vintage, or eventually play some games for fun.
i'm from italy and of course my friends in NY don't play magic and ignore if there are related shops there...

thanks for you help,

CARONDIMONIO

.. i have all the cards too, i'm a very old player, and i totally agree that it would be great if they reprint them..
it wuold give MTG new life...
and it would give Wizzy fresh good money...



CARONDIMONIO

thanks for this very nice (and free! ) article,
it gives you a good idea of what actual meta is, and where is going..
of course as many say you could have included more details (goblins.. how combo works etc.. etc.)
but i think that  it still really gives a reader quite a clear view of 2010 vintage...


CARONDIMONIO

... this cards looks very useful in many different situations...
... if we will have many zero cost istant traps we will maybe use again cunning wish to instantly get from SB the most usefule trap in every situation.. maybe...

nice job with zendikar anyway (net fetchlands, traps etc.)

CARONDIMONIO

very interesting article, which summarise the status of drain-contorl decks at the moment..

I would also like to add that here (italy) some players are starting to play a version of this deck with both intu-ak and confidant drawing engines... and 2 finishers (tendrils and thinker fo whatever...)

This deck apparently is performing quite well in its deifferent versions..

CARONDIMONIO

i've played intuition + deep a lot in my tezz and it works very well...
but finally i came back to intu+ak... i works better in my opinion even if you need more slots..
i have also tryed opt... but no good results...
and impulse.. but still not enough card advantage..
and bob.. but same problems you have encountered...
and voltaic key+top but not that good.. you rather close the combo befor closing key + top
... and many others..
but still now i like 1) intu+ak 2)intu+ deep..

i have to say that repeal + remora is not that bad...
anyway..


CARONDIMONIO

..i agree that wotc should reprint P9 and all the old cards, i would really like it and i hope they'll do...
..i don't agree that you can't recognize a counterfeit, there are at least 10 different things you can check in a card to see if it's true or if it's a very good reprint...
..from light reaction, to consistency, to lens analysy etc..

actually even if you use the most advanced printing methods, you can obtain a perfect copy of a card, but a player who know how is the original alpha, beta etc. version, or has it near to compare, will find the differences..

i think also that if someone uses more advanced reprinting methods that makes almost impossible to find deffirences between and old card and the copy, he would rather print money than old MTG cards...

to come back on topic, i really think it would be great if wotc decide to print a limited set of old cards you can use in sanctioned events in vintage.

CARONDIMONIO

..morzas.. we can recognize true cards from counterfeit in Europe, don't worry, and we don't use false cards.. moreover many of us are so old players that we bought our cards since mtg started..
in sanctioned  tournaments if you believe that someone is using counterfeit or proxies you just calla  judge.. to give you  number, in many years it only happened once to me few months ago...
so... in more than 9 years it olny happenede once to me to find a player with false cards in a sanctioned event... and that's it..

CARONDIMONIO

... very good article..
i agree that proxies are a good way to kill what is a CCG... what's the point of collecting if you can use copies?... you don't want to spend money? use unspoilered decks untill you win some more powerful cards...
in italy there are many unspoilered decks making pretty good results in sanctioned events...

...and i also agree with the 3 possible solutions...

i would also like an even more efficent 4th solution.. even if i own all the power etc...  i would like WOTC to reprint some old cards, even P9, for example reprinting one each new set.. so that you can have collectionists play with old versions of cards and new players use the new printings... and in this way we would have no more proxy problems, many new vintage players, and Wizzy would earn much more from the new card sets....

but i think this will never happen...

CARONDIMONIO

....mmm... strategic planning is a sorcery... and does not give card advantages..
in my opinion there are better options...

more over it's white borderde card.. i don't ant white bordered cards in my deck!!!! ...

CARONDIMONIO

..i still prefer intuition ak...

but we could also try Memory jar and timetwister...

i've tryed timetwister in my tezz in the past but it was not so good, now that we have 3 TFK slots free, if you really want to try 3  solutions different from the clasccis (remora, bob, intu+ AK, night's whisper etc.) you could try:

+ 1 memory jar +1 timetwister + 1gush or   +1wheel of fortune... and see if it works.. if you play a comb-tezz they could be worth...

it could be a nice try...

CARONDIMONIO

..mmm.. looks interesting... but i would like to test it to see if it works...
it costs  3
it's a sorcery
but it's blue..
no synergy with artifacts like TFK...

...mmm...

i don't think it's better than intu+AK or confidant or remora... but i think it would be worth trying it.. maybe it's better than night's whisper...
we will see...

CARONDIMONIO

..in my experience gush was great in 4 copies as complete drawing engine (+fastbond )..
...when i've tryied it in 1 copy it didn't come out to be a good solution...
i've tryied 2 deep analsys + intuition... but still it's worse than intuition ak...
so finally i came back to intuition ak which is a bit slow but still a very good drawing engine.

Otherwise you can use dark confidant engine which is quite good too... if you don't want to use meditate/remora..

i did not find any other possible drwaing engine for my tezz....

but i'm thinking about key+top engine (but no blue cards)


CARONDIMONIO

..Wizard point of view is very interesting, and i'm very happy they pay attention to vintage too...
it's also very important that they don't Ban strong cards like vault just to kill an archeype but that they try to
balance the format by unrestricting/restricting other cards.
Even if i used four of them, i'm also happy with the restriction of thirst, which was actually not the problem but surely a part of it.
What i don't like is that: if they want to rule a format in an efficient way, why don't they organize events, leagues etc. like they do in other formats in order to
gather reliable informations on the format itself?

unfotunately i think i know the answer... they think they won't do enough money from such a thing..

and that's it...

CARONDIMONIO

..well...  suspecting the restricion of thirst, i've tryied my tezz deck with:

-3 tfk
+2 deep analysis
+1 intuition

..and it was absolutely not bad...

it also works with tall the 2 intuitions 4 AK drawing engines or with the remora engines so... i don't think Tezz will suffer too much for TFK restriction...

i like very much the 4 unrestrictions, it will be very funny to see what will happen

CARONDIMONIO

...twin cast (blue fork) in tezz: i've tryed it, in some matchups it comes to be unespectly huge, burt i've found it too situational... and turned back to duresses/misdi etc... or transmute artifact for the same cost comes more usefull...
... drain, i think it's a must in a tezz deck...
... spellsnare, i find it a great card, even better than duress in some metagames, but here, with a lot of tps and ad naueam around i prefer duresses... even if i really like spellsnare (soly.. spell snare tezz versione version is great)...


CARONDIMONIO

... i've tryed time twister in my tezz... and I have to agree it's too dangerous to give your opponent 7 new cards...

I have a question anyway, when do you side in Trinisphere?

CARONDIMONIO

.. what if int the Tezz lists you change things like this:
 time vault --> 1 grindstone
vault key -->1 painter's servant

won't you have a same two pieces combo killing the opponent in the same turn if ou can activate it or in the next turn? and you can use transmutate artifact, tinker, and all the other tutors to use it (tezz too)...

so is it really timevault/key the problem quentin?

CARONDIMONIO

..Neonico Point of view concerning the EU metagame is actually very close to our real EU metagame..
.. we have hade seasons when Drains were more played than now..
.. and solutions against vault/key can be found in EU tournament lists..

.. we can not say anyway that drain+thirsts+vault/key combo is not dominating at least USA metagame which is spoiling the format itself..
.. so i think that maybe an action from DCI is needed.. and it's absolutely not easy to find which will be the best answer to this situation..

the only thing i hope is that this time DCI take small steps.. and don't restrict/unrestrict many cards at once like when they restricted merchant/ponder/brainstorm etc all at once..
a step by step approach i think will avoid situations like the one we have now.. that is a son of the last DCI actions (in my opinion)

CARONDIMONIO

...intuition/AK is slower than thirst, it suffers GY hate, it needs 6 cards slot in a deck... it is definetly worse than thirst engine in tezz based controll..

so if you sum: Thirst engine + Drains + Timevault combo you definetly have a deck (tezzeret and similars) which actually I agree can dominate the format... causing a lack of different archetypes development...

whether Restricting something, or unrestricting something... i agree that some changings are needed... and i don't think that  rewording again the combo will be the best solution...

so if you don't touch the combo.. and you don0t touch the drains... maybe thirst wuold be a good choice...

Your list Greistal is very nice... but 4 thirsts UBG tezzeret version is slightly stronger...

CARONDIMONIO

thirst for knowledge are a very good target, in a full artifact deck like Tezz they are almost like ancestral...
i also think they are worse than drain as a problem..

CARONDIMONIO

... what if only P9 were on the restricted list and we were free to use every other card in 4x?...
... which will be then the best deck? or decks? t

4 gifts?
4 gush?
4 timevaults?
...

I think it would be so funny, to have only 9 cards on the restricted list.. and see what happens..
... i play drains and i love them...
..but i also think that changings in the rules can stimulate the game a lot so...
..why not? i was so happy to play again 4 gush.. and still very happy not to play 4 of them anymore..
things change... and that's not bad.. in my opinion..

CARONDIMONIO

.. i own them, even in alpha and beta versions... but still i would realy like wizard to print them again...
and i think you are wrong ashi.. if you are a good player.. and you like magic... even if you have them.. you would like also your friends to have them... if they need them for playing..
CARONDIMONIO

.. i don't think it has anything to do with being elitists feyd..
Magic is a Collectable Card Game,
collect is part of the game...
cards/spells are part of the game..
you play poker, you can play with whichever card deck you want..
you play magic, you have to build your own deck with a defined set of existing cards, not with whichever card you want to use or create...
Proxy playing is good if sometime happens... but you have more proxy games than sanctioned non proxy games.. the format slowly dies..
..so... if you want to play real magic you use 1) no p9 good deck 2) buy P9 etc.   3) hope tha WIZARDs understand that they have to print old cards again in order to give low price access to them also to people who don't want to spend too much money in the game.
As i've told.. i hope that number 3) will happen... i would like that everyone could buy moxes etc. at a reasonable price.. so everyone will start playing T1 with the same possibilities.. that would be great..
...CARONDIMONIO

... I play in Italy, last big tournament (D-DAY empoli florence) i went to, saw nearly 200 participants almost one month and a half ago.. with no proxy allowed.. it was a great event. (guys form starcity were there too).
... I think there are many different good unpowered decks (no P9)...
... I don't like proxies (i have all the P9 etc.)... i don't play events where proxy are allowed...

.. even if collectors will not agree... i realy think that WIZARD should modify the non-reprint policy...
starting to print again old cards in the new sets in order to get back the old magic... and making a very good business with it... will you buy blisters of a new set if one single P9 piece wuold be reprinted? i guess yes...
... what would happen if every new set, from now on, will have at least 1 p 9 piece and some old cards in it?

I guess a lot of people would buy it, a lot of people would start to play vintage again.. and a new interest would raise... coming back to something more similar to the first magic...

Even if I have all old cards (i'm a very old player), i Would really like to see them reprinted...

This is only my opinion.. maybe many of you will hate me for that...
but what are you going to do with you cards if there are no other ppl to play with in your format???
.. proxys are not good for magic... i agree...
but i think Type 1 (vintage..) will not have a long life if things will continue this way..

... CARONDIMONIO

..mmm.. i find transmute artifact much more useful than trinket mage
becuause it's faster and you put what you need directly into play, so if you hit a counter you loose trans (and the sacrificed artifact) but you don't loose the combo piece.. (i don't play regrowth so that's good in my game plan).
 .. actually i play 2 copies of transmute art. (and 2 voltaic keys)  in my deck and i find them very useful in many situations.. they can get me combo parts, or top etc.
i also like trinket very much but i think if you want to play UB tezz in a very fast-combo way transmute art. is more appropriate....
i've found trinket much more useful if you want to play the deck in a more controllish way, with more tools etc...

i think that the different versions of this deck mainly reflect the plan each player want to accomplish... more control, more fast combo win, more different winning conditions, more tezzeret so you can just keep on trying casting it, more answers to fish-artifacts-etc. etc.

and so wether to splash or not green or red, and the approach efficiency of your strategy will be succesful of course if you have the luck, or the experience, to fit the metagame you find...
I still have not found a card or a set of cards that can really have an effective weight on the whole strategy of the deck, which is still i think one of the best without being too difficoult to play.
I find Tezz much easier to play compared to drain tendrils or TPS... of course because maybe i'm still not enough skilled...

..this is only my point of view after being testing this deck for three months..
CARONDIMONIO