@ 6cc, Triskelion is by far and away the best answer to Predator.  It also very efficiently answers the other engines in trezzy.  Of course, that’s if you’re not playing null rod, where keeping trygon from hitting in the first place is probably the better route.  I personally like junk diver because it blocks and gets trike back.  It is also fun to equip junky with a sword.   But, I tend to play other jank like skullclamp and myr retriever.  I look forward to Scars of Mirrodin, and all the broken new artifacts

Rich and I Split the second prelim.  Top 4 was 2xOath, Ichorid, and Shops.  My quarter finals opponent was on mud, but I didn't catch the rest of top 8.

I totally agree with the mana vault thing, though my current build runs it for different reasons.  The choice for metalworker seems good, as it could be randomly amazing, and never redundant.   But I wouldn't go so far as to question metalworkers power as a four of.  Here is a recent result from a 170 person tourney in Florence.  http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1237</a>  Now, say what you will about the Italian metagame, but 4xmetalworker wins tournaments and our new 5/3 friend isn't hurting him.  At worst he is force bait, at best game breaking, and somewhere between he can wield a sword.   

This is simply amazing!  I have dreamed of an artifact sphere with legs, and here it is.  The fact that it is strictly better than JUGGERNAUGHT (plays defense) is insane.  I always imagined a 2/2 sphere for 3.  That would have been a new toy.  This is a lethal weapon.  I echo the sentiments that this may not be the right tool for 5c stax but I am very excited about all the doors this opens for workshop.  I also think wizards did a great job here, though it is going to be interesting to see how it plays out in the meta.  In the eternal struggle drains and shops have always been nemeses, where an eras builds determine predator and prey.  Currently it seems like drains and shops are fairly balanced, but drains win the meta-game.  Meaning shops have a hard time beating everything else while maintaining their drain matchup.  Additionally, the meta right now can be considered a dark confidant meta, and it turns out stax has a hard time dealing with the incremental advantage.  Lodestone changes this paradigm.  It puts pressure on life total instead of board position, while advancing board pressure simultaneously.  While on the surface this golem may not seem like a great weapon against tezz and the dreaded vault key, its going to strengthen shops position in the meta, and change the way shop approaches the drain matchup.  Kudos

Sorry, you're right. I think what we were getting at is the relative amounts of hate needed against ichorid based on clock.  A deck like ad nauseam could probably run 0 hate and have a decent shot of out goldfishing them.  TPS will want to run some, but only needs to trip them up long enough to execute its combo. Of course, even TPS needs to run a fairly robust hate package, as ichorid pretty much maintains the second fastest clock in vintage. Fish has to apply continuous pressure on their strategy, like it does in other matchups, in order to buy enough time to reach the red zone.  This is particularly challenging because ichorid operates in such a unique way.  A lot of fish disruption doesn't touch it.

But the downside is after you've used that hate, your slow clock gives them time to reassemble position.  Without any hate at all, combo can just race, especially ad nauseam.  Also, of course "enormous amounts of hate" can win you games against ichorid, but not without weakening you to the field.  Noah did very well against the field until he ran into ichorid, and we don't want to compromise the integrity of his deck in order to win that matchup.  The key is to utilize what is already present as much as possible, and go from there.  I think, as Noah suggests, adding crypts where sideboard space permits is the first step.  If this is not enough, then more extreme measures may be warranted.  U guys are right that fish decks in general have good MD options, but we don't want to overdo it.  I believe Cursecatcher was on the cutting block.  Maybe he has earned his stay.

You are right on the money here.  This is the exact reason why stax has a hard time dealing with ichorid.  I can draw some hate(I usually run crypt), but without a way to finish them off quickly they just reload and pull the trigger.  I don’t run jailer, but my plan is usually to layer crypts via welder.  This gets interrupted by contagion or even a simple darkblast far too often, and then they just win.  I have not tried extirpate, but I really like your logic.  A good ichorid pilot will slow roll his bridges, and not commit them to the yard.  Without bridges they really have no engine, and are essentially reduced to the days of ashen ghoul beats.  Basically no bridges means dread return becomes harder to cast and has negative net worth, meaning we can deal with one threat easier than three, either by plow/path or wire/stack.  However, if we neutralize bridge they are likely to just ichorid swarm.  Ahhhhh, this matchup is a nightmare.  Anyway, it is my instinct that in these matchups ichorid is always the beatdown.  This means that we have to focus our entire game plan on control.  I am finally realizing the first thing we need to address is bridge. From there it is ichorid himself, and narco.  I am going to test extirpate, and really just test this matchup more in general.  As long as ichorid pilots are omitting leyline, I think you could have decent game with only a few minor tweaks and a solid plan.  Lets say you followed your thought on -2 SB mindcensor 1 path +3 crypt.  , Here are my suggestions:

Game 2:    -4 null rod, -3 daze, -hurks, - 3 Fow

                +4 children, + 3 crypt, +2 jitte, +2 path

If you saw LotV game 1, -1 path, -last FoW, +2 RoR, I think the predators are going to be way too slow here, but good late game to patrol the skies.

Game 3: +3/4 FoW, -3predators/something else/one other thing.

Explanations:

FoW is just card disadvantage and won’t stop bridge from doing its thing.  Game 3 they bring their unmasks back in which is the only thing I can see being important to counter turn 1.  It helps protect your hate.

Jitte will get you on the offensive once bridge is out of the picture.  I think until you get a goyf equipped with one of these, their jod should be holding down the ground defensively.

Path is there for a big troll should they be so inclined.

Again the plan here is to:

1) attack bridge, hopefully not letting a single zombie out of the underworld  (I know, really likely huh).
2) stabilize and set up ichorid defenses on the ground.
3)Equip goyf w/ jitte, and carefully switch into an offensive stance.

Your tools are:

1) cursecatcher, children, crypt, and with a lightning start jitte killing your own creatures.
2) goyf, chumps, jitte. Jitte can turn chumpers into legitimate lines of defense.
3) well, you know.

I really think that once bridge is dealt with, jitte is the key to setting up defenses and turning offensive.  I am sure there are holes in these plans, as I play workshop, but it should be a starting point.  If you are still having problems, maybe try and work the last goyf and cursecatcher in MD.  Oh, and hurkyls should definitely be echoing truth

Joel

Hello Noah,

I am the stax player u faced day 1, round 1.  Sorry I couldn’t put up a better fight, my travels had left me fairly exhausted, and my deck just didn’t want to cooperate game three.  Anyway, your list seems very good against shops in general, and I am going to test the matchup soon.  The Hierarchs are actually a big boon to the stax match as they give you an extra mana source, and come down early.  This in turn helps you jump out onto the board, and mitigates the tempo loss from daze, which can be huge.  I personally really like hierarch, and think you have found a great home for her.  I don’t think I even saw a predator hit play, but would have definitely not enjoyed it.  How did they perform overall?  I know you faced a lot of shops, so I am curious.  Are they really any good in other matchups?  I guess I could see running the fourth goyf in one of their spots. 

The ichorid question is one we can relate on.  I think there is a general consensus that diversity is key.  Peacekeeper seems horrible as both a contagion or a darkblast can take it out.  On top of that it has an upkeep.  Windborn muse dodges both of these with its 3 toughness, but it’s mana cost seems prohibitive, especially in your case.  Did you bring the children in when you faced ichorid?  They seem like a great piece of splash technology not unlike heap doll in my workshop aggro build.  Being able to sac a creature at will can really thwart their bridge plan.  Heap doll of course serves double duty as he can also nail a key card like FKZ.  Like children I also use heap doll against combo.  Its limited, but can keep them off a yawg win by targeting the tutor they might try and reuse for those quick kills.  Besides that I think a mix of the common things like you suggested is good, but splashing hate where you can is also key.  Hope this helps.

Joel

Hey Hale,

Good to see this deck has sparked further interest.  I really enjoyed our brief testing at TMDO, and then our subsequent tournament round.  As a shop player, I can say that the MD confidents make the deck much scarier.  Not only do they back up your man plan post board, but they provide a steady stream of card advantage enabling you to keep up on board position, and help buy you enough time to find your answers.  When the lhurgoyf joins the battle this simply buys time to go into the red zone.  In general I think they give an otherwise very linear strategy a bit of diversity and resilience.  As for H. recall vs. rebuild, I have always built my gauntlet decks with both post board, usually 2 and 1 respectively.  Though rebuild costs 1 extra, chalice at two should not be allowed to negate your entire SB plan.  It also has the added advantage of being able to be used on your turn to wipe out locks --> relay moxen --> go off.  This can often get around tangle wire were hurks can’t.  Man I hate these cards   Anyway, I was also very surprised to see these lists without necro.  I do understand it, but I think it probably still has a place.  With bob and AN I can see how there is going to be a lot of pressure on your life total.  But in a deck that runs 3-4 tendrills, this would seem to be less of a problem.  I would think that forcing through a bomb becomes the main issue, and necro is definitely a bomb.  The way this deck plays necro would be quite different than say TPS, but slow rolling it with this build seems good.  Without even having to mini tendrils a couple times post necro, I can imagine setting 5-7 cards aside and assembling hands that just win.  Doing things like generating extra storm via chain, will, ancestral, etc…  And again, even if you don’t quite get there, just repeat.  Good luck with this build, it seems very promising. 

Joel

Oh, and maybe next time we meet we can play some real games.  You know, like where we both try to actually win

Hey Ray,

Awesome event!!!  I have finally joined TMD, and can say that your events made becoming part of this community simply irresistible.  What is so unique about your events is the high level of competition combined with good old fashioned fun.  From my experience, TMDO is a place where good players can be rewarded for creative design, and is hence a spawning pool of innovation.  Whether I’m getting Selkie Slammed round 1, or lashed into submission by overgrowing vines of kudzu in the finals, I can count on TMDO to be filled with the very best Dominaria has to offer.

Keep up the good work, Joel