I've been around here a long time.  I haven't been posting much for the past year, but I have to say this is the first time in a long time I've been disrespected like that.  Your rather rude tone aside, I'll try to answer your specific concerns as politely as possible.

Your "Challice for 2 kills you" argument is valid, but your logic is somewhat flawed.  Challice for 2 does own Oath in every way.  So does Medling Mage naming Oath or a couple of Stormscape Appretices or even a good first turn Crucible.  Protecting against these threats is, as always, a metagame call.  Speaking of metagame calls...

We don't have very many Chalices up here anymore, so diversification of spell casting cost isn't a big deal.  If Challices were prevelant I would include both a Rushing River AND a Echoing Truth in my Oath deck.  Misdirection, for me, ISN'T a metagame call.  I find it to be extremely useful right now.  I am not alone in this, by the way.  Misdirection is starting to get trendy lately.  I find it to be a great way to help get an early Oath into play against an opponents counter wall.  If you haven't noticed, counterspells are back in fashion, while Challice seems to be out a favor right now.  Looking at recent results, such as Richmond, indicates as much.  Even your most recent tournament at Bluefrog seems to show that in your meta down in Milwauikee Challices are out of fashion. 

So, while the "Challice for 2 kills you" argument is valid, the increasingly limited play of Challice would lead me to use my sideboard as a way to deal with that specific threat, instead of using a maindeck slot on the more expensive Rushing River.

Also, I would argue that if you have been playing Oath for a long time and you haven't EVER died to your own tokens, then you are by far the luckiest or best player ever the deck knows.  Sometimes your tokens kill you.  It's part of the deck.  I prefer to have the Echoing Truth as an insurance measure to kill threats that I KNOW will be presented against me (tokens), rather than the more expensive Rushing River to diversify against a threat that I MIGHT see (Challice). 

I've been playing a more combo-ish version of Oath for six months now and I have come to a few conclusions for all Oath decks.  I won't get into an argument about control v. combo oath at this point but I will post some of the things I have found.

1) You MUST play 1 Echoing Truth maindeck.  Rushing River is extremely inferior.  Echoing Truth allows you to kill off an opponents spirit token army.  That alone warrants its inclusion.  It is also less expensive, and Oath has a pretty wonky mana base, especially if you are running Null Rod maindeck.  Three mana for Rushing River can be difficult. 

2) Crop Rotation is overrated.  Just my opinion, but I almost always found it to be dead.

3) Misdirection is extremely good right now.  I'm currently running three.  I find it to be superior to Duress in many ways.  It also allows for more sideboard flexibility also.

That's all.

I agree with some of the above sentiment.  I don't see him as a fish creature.  Fish is very mana intensive during the attack phase, what with Mishra's and stuff. 

Still, this is a great creature.  A EBA type deck would make very good use of this lil' guy.

There is some intimidation value in having all beta in your deck.  It causes your opponent to make an error or two!

Acutally, I find that when I give a combo player some tokens, they often forget to attack every turn.  Don't feel too bad.  It's a pretty common mistake.

I teach at a high school in Wisconsin.  I would offer some advise here.  If your girlfirend is interested in teaching at the secondary level, she is most likely looking at 5+ years of school to get her undergrad.  Her degree in English, plus general degree requrements, will take about 4 years.  Education classes and student teaching will probabally take another year and a half.  I did it in five with two majors and two minors, but I took 18-19 credits a semester plus 6 credits a summer. 

So, say she works really, really hard and gets into the school of ed when she is a junior, and finishes her English major and gets everything done, including student teaching, in five years and she is certified to teach English, then why the hell would you want to go to grad school?  That's another two-three years! 

I work on hiring and selection committees and we almost never hire people with masters degrees.  We hire teachers right out of college, fresh from their student teaching experience.  They are inexpensive.  A masters degree might price your girlfriend out of the market if she is looking at teaching at a highschool.  There are dozens of applicants for each job in English, and I'd hire someone who was inexpensive.

If your girlfriend wants to teach, tell her to get the bachelors, get the education credits and then student teach as quickly as possible.  Then, get a job.  After she has a job and is earning income, then get the masters degree.  It is sooooo easy for teachers to get a masters degree or continuing education credits in the summer of after school. 

I get it.  As many cards with converted mana cost of 9 and put them in your hand.  That makes more sense. 

Wow.  That seems very, very good.  Oath up Grozoth, get all 5 moxes, Lotus, Yag Will, Ancestral, Timewalk and whatever.  Then just win.  Is it better than just Oathing up Akroma?

I have an Oath of Durids in play, my opponent has one creature, I have none.  On my upkeep, I acivate Oath and I hit a Gaea's Blessing, then I hit a Grozoth.  Does Grozoth come into play before or after the Gaea's Blessing shuffles everything back into my library?  If Grozoth hits play first, do I then search my Library for cards wtih casting cost = to 9, or do I get to re-shuffle the graveyard first? 

Thanks.

I played the Oath deck above.  It's my second tournament with the deck and I'm planning on making some changes.  Misdirection is a tremendous card right now.  I'm thinking about going up to four.  I'm still hedging on Divining Top.  It was OK, but it could have been better.  Why not Scroll Rack?  The replacement effect of Scroll Rack could come in very handy if you happen to have that Akroma in hand and have burned through most of your Brainstorms.  It seems clunky, though.  Maybe I'll just go maindeck Null Rod.  I boarded in those bastards all day anyway!

Here is my report.  I made three big play errors, one cost me a game.  I'll point those out as I go.  Keep in mind, I don't ever test because I don't have friends and am a big looser.  Oh, and I have a pretty demanding job and an equally demanding wife.

Round 1 v. Slaver (can't remember the guys name right now.  I'm blanking)

Game 1, I do nothing as he builds up tremendous card advantage with Thrist.  We have a counter war over a Thirst, but he wins and goes on the offensive.  Eventually he MindTwists me.  Who plays MindTwist anymore?  His card advantage is overwhelming and I scoop as soon as he casts Welder with a full graveyard.  I drew no Misdirections this game. 

Sideboard: In: 3 Null Rod out: 2 Top, 1 Impulse

Game 2, I Misdirect his 2nd turn Ancestral.  I play Orchard then Oath and win two turns later.

Game 3, a turn 1 Null Rod and a turn 2 Oath locked my opponent down.  It twas a broken draw! 

Games - 2-1  Matches 1-0


Round 2 v. Fish Varriant (Brad)

Game 1, I go first after Brad mulls down to 6.  He proceeds to tell me he has never made a top eight ever!  Bad karma for me.  I open with Fetchland and Mox.  His opening play is Library, but he has only 6 cards in hand.  On my next turn I study my options.  I draw Ancestral, with Walk, Stripmine, Brainstorm, Underground and Force in hand.  What to do.  I play Ancestral, draw Lotus and Oath.  I play Lotus, Timewalk, kill his Library.  Next turn I draw an Orchard, Brainstorm finds Yag Will and a Mox and it's pretty much game over from there.

Sideboard - None.  I didn't know what he was playing!

Game 2 is different.  It's one of those games where he gets good card drawing and finds answers.  He manages to outdraw me with Ancestral early and he wins a counter war over Oath which gives him a token.  He then beats me down slowly with Factory.  I keep searching for answers but find none.  He had answers, I didn't.  I did not mount a serious threat all game.

Sideboard in Platinum Angel (just in case) for Top.

Game 3 was a nervous win.  I Tinker for Darksteel early, but he starts drawing answers in the form of Maze of Ith.  He gets two Mazes before I can Oath out Akroma.  I attack, he Mazes both.  He is attacking me with Tokens.  I can't block his Tokens or else he gets to Oath, and he might just have Gilded Drake.  I'm at 10 life when I end up attacking, he Mazes my guys.  I cast Yag Will, replay Vamp for Time Walk, cast Brainstorm, get the Time Walk and cast it for the win.  Time Walk > Maze of Ith. 

Games 4-2  Matches 2-0


Round 3 v. GroATog (Joe)

Game 1 He led off with Duress, then I was able to lock up the game by stalling his mana with Wastelands while I built up a stable manabase.  By turn four, or so, he casts Ancestral, I brainstorm, then I Ancestral, with Force to counter his Force, then I draw Misdirect off my Ancestral and Misdirect his Ancestral.  It was game altering, to say the least.  The game was so quick that I didn't even know he was playing Gro.  I assumed it might be Oath.

Sideboard 1 Platinum Angel, 2 Echoing Truth (take that, Oath) for 2 Tops, 1 Impulse

Game 2 he just beats the crap out of me.  He  manages to build up an extremely impressive card advantage, then casts Tog.  I scoop.  I don't change the sideboard, though.

Game 3 BIG PLAY ERROR #1.  I manage an early Oath, backed-up with counters.  It's early in the game, so his mana base isn't well established.  I Oath out Darksteel.  On his turn he looks carefully at his hand.  He's wondering if I can Misdirect a Gilded Drake.  Damn.  In hand I have a Echoing Truth, and not much else.  He plays a Tog and says go.  He has very few cards in hand and not much in the graveyard, so I wasn't too afraid of the early Tog.  I Oath out Platinum Angel.  I'm feeling pretty safe now.  I attack with Darksteel, he blocks with his Tog.  In his turn he casts Gilded Drake, naming Darksteel.  This was a major mistake on his part.  If he took the Platinum Angel I can't win.  I Echoing Truth my Darksteel IN RESPONSE!  I'm an idiot.  I should have let the Drake resolve, then Echoing Truthed the Colossus.  I would have gotten a 3/3 flyer.  Instead the Drake fizzles.  He made an error and I made an error right back at him.  I have no excuse here, it was just nerves and stupidity on my part.  The game state was somewhat iffy.  Neither of us had many cards in had.  We both were on game 3 and were perhaps overly nervous about the swingy game.  We both made errors.  In the end, though, my Akroma comes out quickly and Platinum Angel and Akroma finish the game.  Joe and I discuss what fools we are after the game and I go to round 4.

Games 6-3  Matches 3-0


Round 4 v. Grim Long (Chris)

Game 1 was very quick.  He casts turn 1 Dark Confident.  I have a turn 2 Tinker for Colossus.  Still, he almost combos out.  He is a couple of mana short and the Colossus wins.

Board in: 3 Null Rod, 1 Platinum Angel   Out: 2 Tops, 2 Misdirection

Game 2 was long and slow.  He has an early Xantid Swarm.  I was loving this.  I didn't counter because I had Oath in hand, but no Orchard.  I play Oath on turn 1.  He plays Orchard on turn 2.  Shit.  He's running orchard?  Why?  I attack with my one token for years.  I kill a lot of his land, including his Orcahrd.  I play Null Rod and he cries.  We both have one creature, though, and I can't draw an Orchard of my own!  I slowly beat him down to 5 life with my token.  He draws Hurkyls and casts it on his EOT.  On his turn he casts Lotus - Will and goes off.  I die.

Game 3 was simmilar.  I vowed not to let that damn Swarm on the table, but he had it turn 1.  I had no Oath this time, though.  He gets out an Orchard, and I get a Token.  I draw Wasteland after Wasteland and I kill a large chunk of his other land.  I also get an early Null Rod.  I attack with Token, which goes the distance for the win.  He really had no mana.

Games 8-4  Matches 4-0


Round 5 ID

Top 8 v. UbaStax (Xue)

Xue was a great guy, but my mana denial got the most of him.   Game 1, He led off with a turn 1 Workshop to NullRod and I wasted his Workshop on my turn.  He didn't really recover until Tinker for Darksteel sealed the game.

Board in 1 Woodripper, 2 Oxodize for 1 Top, 2 Misdirection

Game 2 was me getting lucky with Oxodize.  He leads off with Workshop-Crucuble.  I play a Tropical for Oxodize on the Crucible. He plays Bazar and starts drawing, but I am able to combo out.  He gets 2 Maze of Ith into play.  Again, I use Time Walk for the win. 

Top 4 v. Gifts (Tom)

Tom is the most patient player in the universe.  After I defeated Xue, I waited patiently for Tom to finish his T8 match.  I used my watch to start splitting turns.  Tom took just over 1.5 minutes to decide which two cards to put back on the top of his library after a Brainstorm.  It was funny because it didn't really matter.  He had won the game at that point.  I wait 15 minutes or so for Tom to finish off his opponent and I get ready to play.  They inform me that they had just finished game 1.  R U KITTEN ME?  Xue and I finished two games, had a conversation about being Hmong in America today, discussed our occupations, traded recepies for Tater-Tot Hot Dish and read all of War and Peace together.  In the meantime, Tom hadn't finished his first game.  Apparently Tom's opponent was very patient also.  It took them a while.  So, I waited and watched.  It was grueling.  So I had to leave and talk to Jason for a while.  Eventually (and I mean eventually more in the "a river will eventually carve out a canyon" sense of the word) Tom and I sat down to play.

Game 1, Tom beats me down with Tokens.  Early game, he Merchant Scrolls for Ancestral and casts it on my EOT.  I Ancestral in response.  He Misdirects my Ancestral.  He gets six cards.  I get nothing.  After that, I can't get an Oath around his counter wall and my Tokens beat me down.  Little bastard Tokens!

Sideboard in 3 Null Rod, board out 2 Tops, 1 Impulse  This was a very difficult decision.  Do I get Null Rod, or Tormod's Crypt?  Damn, it was tough.  I must have though about this decision for, like, 10 minutes.  Eventually I put the Null Rods in.  I felt bad for making Tom wait so long for me to sideboard, but then I realized he was still sideboarding and I didn't feel so bad.

Game 2 BIG PLAY ERROR #2

I had a turn 1 Null Rod.  Tom plays a turn 2 Claws of Gix.  Null Rod > Claws of Gix.  Tom's mana development stalls a bit and I'm pretty sure he's sitting on a handful of artifacts.  I play Ancestral, he Ancestrals in response, I Misdirect his Ancestral and draw six cards.  Ancestral with Force back-up isn't nearly as good as Ancestral with Misdirection back-up.  I get my combo out, but Tom mounts a comeback.  He manages to Echoing Truth Akroma.  Shit.  I drew Darksteel long ago and now I'm holding both in hand.  I look in my graveyard and count 3 Brainstorms.  He starts attacking me with Tokens.  Both of my creatures are in hand and I'm stuck.  I also had Yag Will in hand and could have cast it, but I didn't think it through.  I was too focused on getting a Brainstorm.  So, I activate Oath, triggering Blessing and my graveyard is gone, back into the deck.  I'll draw a Brainstorm or a Tutor eventually?  Right?  I should have cast Yag Will.  I'm an idiot.  I realized it right after I triggered Oath too.  Anyway, he beats me down to 10 or so before I can Brainstorm and Oath out Akroma. 

Null Rod was just tremendous in this match-up.  It really helped stall his mana development and shut him down for a large part of the game.

Game 3 BIG ERROR #3.  I kept a two Wasteland hand.  It did have an Emerald and Brainstorms and some nice pitch counters, but no blue mana.  I got beat very quickly and I drew no mana.  I should have mulliganed.  I like my chances in that match-up with the Null Rod.

Tom and his buddy split the prize and I went home with some store credit.  Next time I'll be a little more patient.

I came to this realization about six months ago.  Then I had another though.  If Balance isn't good and Decree is too slow, then why run White in 4cc?  Swords?  That's not reason enough.  Not with Fire/Ice and bounce spells and the uber-powerful Engineered Explosives.  I cut white and was really impressed with the results.  I still couldn't get over the hump, though.  I did well at a couple of tournaments, then I scrubbed out of one.  I dropped my 3cc Keeper for Oath the next day.

I think this is an extremely good point, but let me pose a question.  Assuming your are doing nothing to your oppoent (no wastes, no counters) and he is "in the chain" how big does the "chain" get?  How many turns of EOT Brainstorm. Fetch?  EOT Vamp?  How long is the set-up before your opponent beats you by, basically, combo-ing out?  Five turns?  Three? 

We are agruing two very different points here.  Harkius is arguing that you ignore the "draw chain" and just counter the must-counter stuff.  I'm arguing that your opponent's "draw chain" is so damn effective that, unless you can disrupt it, you won't win.

I have two serious problems.


The logic here is beyond comprehension.  The Will must be countered, not because he only has one threat in the graveyard, but because, assuming a full graveyard, he has access to more card drawing, tutoring, searching, acceleration.  Everything you spent the entire game CONTROLING is now at your opponents fingertips if Will goes through.  So he plays a shitton of spells and casts Tendrils.  Counter?  Nope.  It doesn't work that way.  Your still dead.  There are very, very few instances in which a control play can allow a Will to resolve.

By the way, most Control v. Control match-ups are not won over the big Will.  They are won prior to that point by the big EOT play, and the counter war that ensues.  EOT for Gifts, or EOT for Ancestral or EOT for Fact or EOT for a big Skeletal or EOT for...  Whatever (or a big EOT activation of Welder).  That's where the game is lost, and that's where the game needs to be won.  Prevent that, and you win (assuming your opponent doesn't just Will next turn while you are tapped out).

also...

What does this mean?  Keeper needs to play it's own game?  Don't focus on the opponent?  Sounds much more like combo-control or just plain combo.  It's a good way to play, but not for Keeper.  Keeper focuses on disrupting the opponent's strategy.  If Keeper "plays it's own game" it it's present state, it will get killed by the opponent who is also "playing his own game" at a much greater rate of speed, with much better card drawing and with much better general brokenness.  I think you should try to clarify what you mean here.

Barring an extremely strong opening hand, a typical control deck has a build-up of four to eight turns, then they cast a huge EOT spell, then they go off in one big turn.  Yeah, you have that Disehchant... but for what?  Their Mindslaver?  Too late.  Their Belcher?  Too late.  GG.  They are going off.  Not much you can do about it.  You have two or three Plows maindeck, so you killed an Welder.  Big deal.  They are cycling through cards like hell and have found another one by the time you can C.Wish for another answer.  One for one is not good if your opponent can outdraw/outsearch you.  It's not good if C.Wish for an answer is more expensive then the problem.

The only way to win is to prevent the drawing/searching/digging of the build-up phase.  That's where Keeper shined in the past.  Prevent the play, build a card advantage, then force through a win.  That was 2000.  In 2006, your opponent will ignore you.  Keeper, though, can't ignore the opponent.  So you trade one-for-one.  Big deal.  They have more problems than you have solutions.  And more disruption and counters, too.  And their problems are cheaper than your solutions, especially if you use C. Wish.  And they can "just win" much better than you can.

Granted, if you know your personal metagame, you can be successful.  Still, my metagame is never constant.  Sure, one guy always plays Dragon and FCG is always there.  Other than that, who knows what to expect? 

If Keeper decks could control the build-up phase of other good control decks, they could regain the ability to be competitive.  Until Keeper does that, your combo-control opponent is going to ignore you, out-draw you, out-tutor you and kill you.

After I read this, I thought for a day or two about the notion of draw-go.  I haven't played a game that was draw-go, in the traditional (1998) sense in a long, long time.  Untap, draw a card, play a land, end turn.  How many times do we see that?  It's pretty damn rare now.  Perhaps this is why Keeper is dead.

I've stayed with Keeper much longer than I should have, and with pretty disasterous results in my local tournaments.  Other people are winning with Slaver, Fish variants, Oath, Dragon, Gifts, Gifts, more Gifts.  Hell, even FCG is making T8 from time to time.  Keeper, though, isn't doing a damn thing.  And I've tried it all, be it 3cc with white, 3cc with red, 4cc with white and red  (I suppose I haven't tried 5cc n a few years...  I'm not totally retarded, though). 

Draw-go isn't how the game is played anymore.  Draw-go, if anything, is "draw-go... then at the end of your turn I'll Brainstorm, Vamp, Mystical, Impulse, Gifts, Fetch, activate Welder... whatever".   Assuming a non-broken first turn mainphase, The EOT phase in the mid-game is far more important than any other phase in control v. control right now.  That's where Keeper is losing the game.  Your opponent is casting spells or activating abilities that are inexpensive, powerful and game altering.  Keeper can't do much in response other than counter.  Consider this: what is the best EOT play?  Casts Gifts OR cycle Decree for one token and one card?  Both cost four.  One drastically alters the game and is a must counter.  The other is a punchline from an old joke.

The best way to win with Keeper was to deny resources.  Remember, early Keeper was combo control!  Deny mana or cards in hand.  Deny creatures.  Lock an opponent out.  Then win the game.  This was possible 6 or 7 years ago.  Moat and Abyss were bombs.  Serra Angel or Morphling were bombs.  Disrupting Scepter or Jamdae Tome were bombs.  Bloodmoon and COP Red were a bombs.  Those cards, in combination, served as powerful combo-control elements.  Swords and Disenchant, along with counters, served as spot removal to keep you alive until you could find a bomb. 

Combo control has evolved.

What changed?  Bombs stayed expensive, but combo-control elements got much less expensive and far more effective.  Oath is a very inexpensive two card combo.  Gifts is basically a one card combo for one blue and three colorless.  Welder/Thrist is a teriffic two card combo.  All of these "combos" couple extremely well with other control elements, mainly drawing, tutoring and permission spells.  These cards make decks far more efficient AND resiliant.  They have extremely fast clocks.  If anything, they will draw-go for a few turns while tutoring, then they will go off in one big turn.  This one big turn almost always follows a major EOT play.  Keeper can't compete with that.   

Simply put, Keeper is obsolete because your combo-control opponent will build-up with inexpensive, highly effective tutors and draw spells EOT.  Your combo-control opponent can opperate successfully on one or two mana and is able to easily survive early mana denial.  Your combo-control opponent doesn't need creatures to beat you down.  Decks are far more resiliant... so much so that one bomb doesn't do much.  (note: Keeper players aren't doing a good enough job of finding bombs.  Why isn't modern Keeper running Null Rod, for example?  Why are Keeper players still relying on Cunning Wish for versitile, yet very expensive, solutions, when most other control decks have moved on to more focused efficiency?  Why why why).

Keeper is less efficient, less powerful, has a much slower clock, a much less broken potential first turn and doesn't have the powerful EOT phase of other control decks.  If you accept these facts, then why the hell would you play Keeper?

I didn't go to all of those tournaments.  Also, I've been sucking lately, so I've been at the looser table playing against Food Chains, mostly. 

I hadn't played against an Oath deck at Dreamers in a very long time.  Suddenly I play three in four matches, plus I'm playing Oath myself!  This leads me to the conclusion that Oath went from nowhere to everywhere in just one month.  Granted, I'm probabally wrong. 

Anyway, good luck to all who qualified for the Tournament of Champions in three weeks.  See you all at the pre-release next weekend. 

Well, I'm a bad player with a new deck, which might explain part of it.  My thought was that if you take one or more Oaths, your first turn combo potential is diminished.  I can't see how taking out an Oath would be good, but, then again, I'm new to the deck.  What is the proper play, to take out an Oath or two in the mirror?  That seems awfully bad to me, expecially if you are going first.

Thanks for posting this info, Jeff.  Thought I'd chime in here with my tournament report.

I played this:

Craig Olson - Oath
4 Oath of Druids
1 Gaea's Blessing
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
3 Misdirection
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Darksteel Colossus
4 Forbiddan Orchard
4 Wasteland
5 Moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
SB:
2 Echoing Truth
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Null Rod
2 Ancient Hydra
1 Platinum Angel
1 Woodripper
3 Oxidize

I have never played Oath before.  I felt very akward with the deck for a while, but I tested a bit ahead of time.  
Decided against Challice or Duress.  Went with more search with the Tops and 3 Misdirection instead.  Dreamers can be very control intensive or very aggro intensive (FCG, Fish).  I figured Duress wasn't going to cut it and Challice was sub-par.  Misdirect is soooo good right now that I decided to try it out.  Other than that, the build is very standard.  I did decide against Crop Rotation at the last minute, though.

By the way, I haven't played against an Oath deck at Dreamer's in six months, so I figured it would be a nice deck to run.

Round 1, v. Joe K playing OATH (the damn mirror)

The mirror.  And I'm not very good with my own deck yet.  Shit.

Game 1
He wins the roll and mulligans down to 4 cards.  Holy crap, I should win this easily.  I draw 2 Brainstorms, 1 Waste, 1 Vamp, 1 Fetch, 1 Impulse and 1 Tropical.  I keep.  He goes first.  He plays Waste and passes the turn.  I draw another Brainstorm.  I Waste his Waste, thinking he is mana screwed.  This was a serious misplay.  I should have played the Tropical.  His next turn he plays Orchard, casts Ancestral.  Shit.  I have one token.  On my turn I draw an Oath.  I play the Tropical and pass the turn.  I forget to attack.  I am the worst player in the world.  He draws, plays a mox and casts Oath.  I have two tokens.  Crap.  I brainstorm into Mana Leak, Top and Land.  I suck.  Next turn I play a Fetchland and cast my own Oath.  Damn, do I suck.  He then activates MY Oath and HIS Oath, gets two dudes and beats me down.  I forgot that he can use my Oath too.  I suck ass.  He beat me down after mulling to 4 cards.  This is going to be a long day.

Sideboard out Akroma, 2 Impulse for 2 Echoing Truth and 1 Platinum Angel

Game 2 is uneventful.  He plays a 2nd turn Oath with Force back-up.  We both have Orchards and Wastes, but he got his Orchard out one turn earlier, and he had his Waste one turn earlier too, so I am left with two tokens to his one.  I die.

At this point I'm pretty bummed.  I haven't been doing well lately.  My luck is awful.  He mulls down to 4 and still wins?  He has a turn 2 Oath with coutnter back-up?  I suck.

Games 0-2
Matches 0-1

Round 2 v Pat playing a Dark Fish Vial variant

Game 1
He wins the roll and plays a turn one Vial off an Underground Sea.  He doesn't seem happy with his hand.  I have Orchard and a Jet, but no Oath.  I draw Vamp, play Wasteland on his Sea, cast Jet and end the turn.  He misses his land drop turn 2, sets his Vial at 1 counter and ends turn.  I Vamp for Oath, draw it, play Orchard and cast Oath.  He says "I can't win".  He misses his land drop again, setting Vial at 2.  I Oath out Akroma and he scoops.

I board out 1 Misdirection, 1 Impulse and put in 1 Echoing Truth and 1 Ancient Hydra.  This was a mistake.  I should have taken out Akroma for another Hydra.

Game 2
He plays first.  My draw is 2 Orchard, 2 Oath, 1 Lotus, 1 Sapphire, 1 Top.  He plays Lotus, Jet, Fetch, Wretch, Dimir Cutpurse!  WTF.  I'm on a serious clock.  I draw Darksteel Colossus.  Crap.  I play Orchard, Sapphire, Oath.  NOTE:  Is this the correct play?  Should I have played two Oaths?  I figured not, just incase he boarded in Echoing Truth, but I guess it wouldn't have mattered.  

He attacks for 5 with the token, the Wretch and the Cutpurse.  I discard Colossus.  It's shuffled back in, and I take 5.   He casts another Cutpurse.  He ends turn and I activate Oath on my upkeep.  I Oath up Ancient Hydra.  Unbelieveable!  I draw Brainstorm, play Lotus and my other Orchard and pass the turn.  I have a Hydra in play with 5 mana on the table against 2 Cutpurses, 1 Wretch and 1 Sprit Token.  It's no contest.  He draws and swings on his turn.  I deal two damage to the first Cutpurse, deal 2 damage to the Wretch and declare my Hydra as a blocker on the 2nd Cutpurse.  I didn't tap my Orchard to kill the other Token because it would have been a wash anyway and I wanted to be able to Brainstorm.  I take 1 damage.  I brainstorm, finding nothing important.  I Oath up Akroma and commence beatdown.

Games 2-0 (2-2)
Matches 1-1

Round 3 v. Jesse playing OATH

2nd Oath deck in three rounds?  WTF.

Game 1.  He goes first.  He plays 2nd turn Oath with Orchard.  I play my own Orchard and Brainstorm.  We both have one token in play, both Orchards tapped.  He tries to tap Orchard during his untap step to activate Oath on his upkeep, but it doesn't work that way and the judge tells him so.  He creates another token by Brainstorming, then Wastes my tapped Orchard.  He has two tokens.  I draw Wasteland, one turn too late.  I hate this.  We had very simmilar hands, but he went first and got two tokens to my one.  He proceeds to beat the shit out of me with Akroma or Razia, I can't remember which.

Board in 2 Echoing Truth for 2 Impulse.  He boards in cards like mad.  Something like seven cards.  I decide at the last minute to not put Platinum Angel in.  I figured Tinker Angel might be a good play if I am way down and about to die.  In the end I decided not to put the Angel in.

Game 2 I have first turn Tinker/Colossus off Mox Ruby, Island and Pearl.  I sac Pearl.  His first turn is Land, Ruby, Echoing Truth on my Colossus.  I Misdirect the Echoing Truth to his Ruby.  Our Rubies return to hand.  I draw Stripmine and kill his land, swing with Colossus.  He draws his next card, scoops and on to game 3.

Game 3 is awful for both of us.  I get 12 mana sources in 18 cards.  That's too many.  Three of those were Wastelands, though.  I manage to Leak an early Oath, he Misdirects, pitching Echoing Truth, I Misdirect, pitching Echoing Truth.  GG.  I keep him to only Orchards with my Wastes.  He needs to use Orchards to cast Impulses, Brainstorms.  He's searching, but I have an army of Sprit Tokens.  By the time he gets any steam, he is at 5 life and I have 6 tokens.  I win.

Games 2-1 (4-3)
Matches 2-1

Round 4 Ben K playing OATH

Alright.  Now I'm pissed.  Paired against the mirror 3 times?  Shit.  Ben had a more traditional OATH deck.  Duresses and Challices.  I feel my Misdirections give me an advantage in this match-up, even though conventional wisdom would indicate otherwise.

Game 1 he Duresses twice in three turns, and searches for Oath.  He has two Orchards in play and my army is building.  By the time he casts Oath I have 5 tokens and his life is just too low.

Board out 2 Impulse 1 Akroma, in 2 Echoing Truth 1 Platinum Angel.  I figure that the Angel can be Tinkered out in the face of a massive Token army or whatever.  

Game 2 he plays first.  He has first turn Orchard Oath.  I have first turn Orchard Oath.  He has 2nd turn Wasteland.  I have 2nd turn Wasteland, but, again, I can't win that battle.  It's about who goes first.  His one token to my two mean that I lose to Akroma.

Game 3 I have first turn Oath with Misdirect back-up for his Force.  On his turn I Oath out Platinum Angel.  He looks shaken.  He tells me he has no answer for it.  He scoops.  No bounce spells, I ask?  None.  He wasn't expecting Oath.  I look at his board.

Games  2-1 (6-4)
Matches 3-1

Round 5 v. Someone.  ID to final 8.

Games (6-4)
Matches 3-1-1

T8 v. Justin with TT Confident

Game 1.  I mulled to five.  My draw is 2 Brainstorm, 2 Misdirection, 1 Wasteland.  It was the best I could do.  He plays first, playing Underground Sea and Top.  I draw Impulse, play Waste on his Sea and pass the turn.  He uses Top.  On his next turn he plays another Sea.  He casts two Moxes.  I draw an off-color Mox, play it and pass the turn.  If only I had that Top.  My hand is 2 Brainstorm, 1 Impulse and 2 Misdirection with one Mox in play.  I'm screwed.  He brainstorms EOT.  Next turn he casts Ancestral main phase.  I Misdirect.  He brainstorms and...  he has no response.  I'm back in the game.  Hell yeah.  Off of the Ancestral, I draw a Fetch, an Oath and an Orchard.  On my next turn I draw a Mana Leak.  I play Orchard, Oath.  He is shocked.  He didn't know I was playing Oath.  He digs a bit with Top and Brainstorms on his turn.  He has four cards in hand, Top in play along with a ton of other artifacts.  I Oath up Akroma and swing him down to 12, then play a Fetch.  He knows he has one turn to live.  On his turn he draws a card, uses Top to draw another.  He plays a dig spell, re-casts Top, casts Mana Vault, taps it to Top.  He uses a Fetch and Tops again.  He plays a Mox, giving him two untapped at this point.  He plays Black Lotus.  I should have Leaked it.  I thought about it, but didnt' do it.  He then uses one mana from the Vault, the two Moxes and the Lotus to cast the last card in his hand, MINDS DESIRE!  He Desires for 6.  I'm a turn away from winning.  He filps 1 card.  It's a Brainstorm.  He casts it.  He flips the next five.  A drain, a Bargain, a... well, that's all you need.  He finds a Tendrils and kills me.

Board out 2 Tops 2 Impulse, for 3 Null Rod and 1 Platinum Angel.

I go first.  I have Orchard/Oath turn 2, but he has a Force.  I end up Brainstorming and finding Null Rod.  I play it by turn 5 or so, and he has 2 Spirit Tokens.  Null Rod shuts down his mana, though.  He has only two land and few cards in hand.  Next turn I play another Orchard and Tinker away a Mox for Platinum Angel.  Was this the right play?  he's at 18 life.  It's a 5 or 6 turn clock, but I can't die.  Should I have gotten Colossus?  Three turns later he plays a third land, casts Rebuild.  I lose Null Rod and Platinum Angel, then I lose the game from my tokens.  I should have gotten the Colossus.

Games 0-2 (6-6)
Matches 3-2-1

Still, there were five Oath decks at Dreamers, and I was the only one that made top 8.  

Well, orgcandman, after seeing your response and looking at your decklist, we just have fundamenatally different ways of looking at control.  Most of your logic is sound, but I feel it is outdated.  I also I feel your deck is somewhat random.  I mean no disrespect in saying so, of course.  Your arguments, though, are quite situational and perhaps don't represent true "in game" situations.

Your example of using Cunning Wish to get back a card lost to Scrying is a great example.  The synergy between the two cards is great, and is something I explored at length six months ago.  But such a strategy should be done with multiple Cunning Wishes and a sideboard option that takes advantage of the versitality of the cards.  One lone Cunning Wish seems random and very situational.  In your example, you are first turn Ancestraling, then Scrying, Wishing, and Ancestraling again over the next couple of turns.  Very, very situational, and not a reason to run one Wish.  A side note; I don't understand how you can power-up multiple Scryings early with only 4 Fetchlands and no Wastes.

Look, you run 2 Plows, 2 Pithing Needles.  I run 4 Engineered Explosives.  Both of us can deal with Welders.  I feel, though, that the 4 EE sets me up for a better long game with more a versitaile card.  One Plow kills one Welder.  One EE sweeps the board of 1cc spells.  Still, if I were playing white, I would run Plow.  I don't blame you for doing so, I just disagree that 4cc is better than 3cc.

You have 1 Cunning Wish, 1 Red Blast, 2 Swords, 2 Duresses, 2 Needles and 1 Shaman maindeck.  Genearlly, when I see a decklist like that I kinda assume a deck is trying to do way too much and, as a result, won't be doing anything very well.  All of these cards are situational "bombs".  Shaman just owns a lot of decks right now.  Duress is great in a pinch.  Needle can shut down an entire deck strategy.  Still, you have so many 1 and 2 of's with these situational cards that I don't see you having what you need when you need it.  I see an opponent laying a Bazzar and you not having the Needle, instead having the Plow or Duress in hand.  I see an opponent playing a Uba Mask and you don't have the Shaman or Wish, you have a Red Blast in hand instead.  I see an opponent playing a Echoing Truth on your tokens, and you have a Plow or Needle instead of your Red Blast.  There is nothing like having the exact card you need when you need it, but with 1 and 2 of's, that just isn't likely.  Vamp makes this a little less sketchy.  You certianly should have Vamp maindeck.  Also, if using Balance for devestating board advantage is your style, then you should definately be running Vamp so you can Balance early.

And Lotus Petal?  To me, that should be Fetchland #5.  Especially in a 4cc deck.

Look, I appreciate your comments and insight.  I just see your deck as being extremely flawed (as I'm sure you do about mine).  We just have fundamental disagreements about 3/4cc right now.

First, let me say that I'm sure that we have serious disagreements as to the nature of control.  That's fine.  I'll try to explain my thought process here and we can perhaps for a consensus.  Perhaps not, but it's still fun to discuss.

1) Mana denial - you stated that it dilutes the mana base.  I disagree.  26 sources, counting Wastes/Strip, in a 3cc deck is fine.  I have no problems with the mana base. 

2) We agree on Shaman.  Good.

3) Cunning Wish causes a major bastardization of the board.  When do you wish?  Do you waste a Tutor on Wish instead of Tutoring for Tinker or Will?  I can only immagine a few situations where Tutoring for Wish would be better than Tutoring for Tinker or Will.  In fact, I seet his as being sooo rare that I just don't run Wish.  It's not worth giving up the board slots for such a narrow purpose.  We might have to disagree on this.



4) I don't understand your point, here...


5) Again, we disagree.  The rando Tinker/Collosus isn't reason enough to run White for Swords.  In fact, at my last tournament I lost to far more Welders than I did Colossossossusses.  Fire/Ice is just fine against Welder.  Sure, Swords is great, but it's not worth going up to 4cc and wrecking the mana base.  Yeah, Balance is awesome.  It gets you out of a jam big time, but not worth it for a 4cc mana base.

I see the meta as being one in which decks quickly build resources by drawing cards or casting extremely good spells, then, after quickling building up, decks simply "go off".  Balance doesn't do much in that situation except to stall the "build-up" phase.  Balance kills Welders v. Stacks.  It doesn't do much against Oath.  Again, it's great in the control mirror, but that match isn't common.  Sure, Balance is great against Food Chains too, but 4 EE can handle Food Chains pretty well.  And with 3 Gorilla Shaman, I usually can't Balance away their Welders because we both have a creature in play.

And Decree is not optimal.  It's slow and takes time to develop.  By the time you are casting Decree for three or four, you should have already won the game or your opponent should be so locked down that you can kill him with anything.  It's not worth cutting red for Decree.

Shaman, Rack and Ruin and Red Blast are just toooooo good right now.  Look at the meta!  Granted, I'd like a disenchant effect for Oath, but EE does fine.


Again, I disagree.  Welder is sneaky.  A good opponent doesn't just have to sacrafice Moxes.  They have all kinds of artifacts they can throw away to get whatever they need from the graveyard.  Workshop provides an opponent with a 3cc artifact turn 1 that can be Welded early in the game before Shaman can deal with that artifact.  You need to be able to deal with Welder at any point in the game, either with a counter or with some other control measure (EE for 1 does the job, so does Fire/Ice or even Crypt).

7) We disagree on Pithing Needle. 


I'm not playing 4cc at all.  I'm playing 3cc.  Perhaps I'm not playing it correctly, but you'll just have to assume that I am and that I know how to play.  The argument is about deckbuilding, anyway.

Look, if you are going to play a deck with a bunch of Tutors and One-of's (one Shaman, one Decree, one Explosives, one Cunning Wish, for example), why wouldn't you play Gifts?  It's much better and has much better cards.  I don't want to play Gifts.  I want to DISRUPT Gifts with my Shaman, wastes, Explosives and Crypts.

As for the EE.  You need 3 or 4 so you can reliably use them on turn 1 or 2 of almost every game.  One is not enough to deal with the large and diverse number of threats out there.  EE is like a Shaman, in a way.  A turn 1 Shaman, and your opponent holds his Moxes in his hand.  EE is the same way.  You cast it for 2 against Oath or Dragon and they sit with Oath or Animate in their hands until they can deal with the EE.  Set it for 1 against Stax and they hold their Welders until they can deal with it.  It allows you to DISRUPT their early game plan so you can Waste, Strip, Shaman your way to significantly throwing their early build-up phase off (pushing back the Clock, as I like to call it).  This doesn't allow them to "go off" as they would perhaps like to.  It allows you to draw enough cards so when they try to "go off", you can counter or hate them into a losing situation.

And I would love to fit Library in, but with Wastes the mana base can't handle it right now.

I thought I'd chime in here and maybe take this thread in a different direction.  I've been playing 3cc for quite some time and after a tremendous number of tournaments and endless hours of playtesting I can tell you all it's a difficult deck to build correctly.  I mentioned a while back that this deck needs to be far more redundant and focused and less cute.  My conclusions, after countless hours, are as such...

1) Mana denial is extremely good right now.  I cannot immagine a fate worse than letting an opponent use a Workshop or Bazzar unhindered right now.  Wastelands are soooo good. 

2) Gorilla Shaman is the 2nd best creature in the game, behind Welder.  Play as many Shaman as you can!

3) Cunning Wish is too slow, it doesn't allow for a sideboard full of hate and it greatly disrupts the flow of your own disruption.  It took me a long time to realize that Cunning Wish was sub-par, but once I did I haven't gone back.

4) Tinker-Colossus is simply the best win condition in the game. 

5) White can't disrupt like Red can.  The correct color combination for 3cc, in my opinion, is U/B/r.

6) You can't win a game unless you can deal with Welder all the time.

7) Pithing Needle is dissapointing.

After comming to these conclusions, I built my deck as such.  It relies heavily on tutors and card drawing, but is very redundant.  It's also got a board packed full of hate.

Mana:
5 Fetch
3 Islands
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Islands
4 Wastelands
1 Stripmine
5 Moxes
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

4 Skeletal Scrying
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk
1 Yag Will

1 Tinker
1 Mystical
1 Vampiric
1 Demonic

4 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible

1 Platinum Angel
1 Darksteel Collosus
3 Gorilla Shaman

Board:
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Red Blast
1 Gorilla Shaman


Explosives is just awesome.  It kills creatures, helps control an opponents mana base, it destroys pesky enchantments like Oath (land-mox-explosives for 2 is a great turn 1 play against Oath).  It's just a phenomonal card.  Very flexible and very redundant.

Sure, you lose Plow and Decree.  I never liked Decree anyway.  It's too slow.  Plow is a great catch-all card, but it isn't the best card for dealing with creatures in this meta. 

Will they restrict Gifts?

Sorry about that.  Didn't mean to be suck a dickweed.

Seriously, that guy was a totall asshole.  Man.  I go away for a couple of months and come back to find a total asshole at Dreamer's.  Very sad.

Nice job on the report and the win, too.

Man.   I remember soooo much.  I've got to be well past the 10 year mark as a player.

I remember when BD and Neutral Ground were the only things keeping the format alive. 

I remember when the best Type I players were the ones to pimp out Keeper, then hold on to it for years without any major changes.

I remember the endless arguments about single card choices in Keeper.

I remember when Type II had a restricted list.

Hell, I remember my first tournament when a guy played a Chaos Orb and killed my Sengir Vampire.

I remember when I bought my first set of dual lands.  4 badlands.  $16 for the set.

I remember when foils came out and everyone had a fit.

I remember some people getting upset when Berzerk was unrestricted.  Oh, the humanity!

I remember the Doomsday stuff, but I can't remember if I was fooled by it (so I probabally was).

I remember when Azhrei would get pissed off at people who would misspell his name!  And when his semi-monthly articles on Star City were called "Type I Gold".

I remember when it all changed:  When Chapin won the big Type I tournament at Gen Con with Gro.  That signaled an end to the era of Keeper dominance.  Before that, Keeper was king.  Sure, Necro had its day, then it was restricted.  The High Tide deck had its day, then was busted up by restriction.  Mono Blue had its day, then Fact was restricted (I remember people seriously talking about restricting Back to Basics too!).  Through it all, Keeper was constant.  After Chapin, though, it all changed. 

If any of the Eau Claire or Minneapolis folks want to ride down with me, let me know.  I'm planning on heading down Friday around noon, staying in a hotel as close as possible.

This is the dilemma.  It's hard to take the format seriously when the costs of the staple cards are so high, but it's even harder to take the format seriously when a 10 year old plays a Portal forest scribbled with the words Black Lotus.

The question is, what do you want the format to look like?  If your only concern is tournament attendence, then unlimited proxies allows for the largest tournament participation.  If you want the format to be more serious, for serious minded players and collectors who have to work hard to find the cards to enter to format, then allowing no proxies is the way to go.

So, as with anything, balance is the key.  Limiting number of proxies allows for increased participation, but forces participants to take deckbuilding and collecting somewhat seriously.  Limiting proxies to a specific number allows us to invite more good players into the foramt, which should increase play level, while still maintaining some format integrity (assuming such a thing exists).  Sure, you still get the annoying guy with Black Lotus scribbled illegibilly on a Forest, but you should get a better level of play overall.

Also, it's absurd to limit proxies to only expensive, scarce cards.  This actually punishes people who already have the older cards by not allowing them to proxy the new stuff.

Lastly, I would like to add that, from my personal experience, the format is just absolutely huge right now.  A shitton of new players have entered our format over the past two years.  Many of these new players are great guys, solid players who have enhanced our format.  Others, though, are just plain dickweeds.  I remember one annoying kid insulting me for having power (the whole "your stupid.  sell your power and proxy").  Side note, I have noticed a backlash among many who don't have power agaisnt those who do.  The "you think you're so cool because you have power" grap gets pretty old.  I know that it's only poorly veiled jealously, but grow up.

Also, many of the new players don't have the human factor.  I remember going to tournaments and asking people about their families, their jobs.  Meeting friends.  Chatting for hours about stuff.  Actually caring about the people I played against.  You had to care about your opponents back then.  Those people were all that was keeping the format (or local metagame) together, and you became pretty attached, even though you would only see eachother once every few months.  Now, that human factor is hard to find in opponents.  If we continue to grow, and not care, we will continue to see tournament reports that read "round 1 opponent playing WTF, don't know his name, I won 2-1.  Round 2 opponent, don't know his name, won 2-0 in 10 minutes...".  Allowing large numbers of proxies will expand our format, but at what cost?

Every tournament format has barriers to entry.  The least expensive format, in regards to tournament participation, is draft and sealed events.  The most expensive is Type I.  Most argue that barriers to entry limit participation in our format, and relaxing barriers to entry by allowing proxies will help our format grow.  This is a reasonable argument, but at what point does the integrity of the format suffer?

Is the high barrier to entry for Type I damaging to the format?

 Â    Most would say that cost of cards prohibits entry into tournaments by many, severely limiting tournament participation.  From the perspective of tournament attendance, unlimited proxies would allow maximum participation by the most players.  Unlimited proxies, however, could potentially infuse the tournament with a large number of bad players who have a limited understanding of the format, of the rules and of the decorum of a tournament as an event.  Also, unlimited proxies might severely diminish utility for a player who is unproxied.  Surely unlimited and unregulated proxies lead to worse play, more mistakes by opponents and greater match time spent reading messy proxies that would otherwise be instantly recognizable.  Also, unlimited and unregulated proxies can potentially lead to greater occurrences of cheating and dishonest play (imagine Duressing an opponent who has seven identical cards scribbled with black marker, some words scratched out, intentionally misspelled to be misleading...).

 Â    Allowing no proxies prevents confusion and should, theoretically, lead to the highest level of play.  This assumes that people who are serious about the format will be serious about finding the cards to be competitive in the format, even if that means buying or borrowing expensive older cards.  Also, individuals who have obtained older expensive cards prior to high prices increases have to remain current by buying newer cards that improve their decks.  Lastly, no proxies means there is no possibility of a mistake being made to do poor proxy quality, which should increase play level.  From this perspective, the barrier to entry is positive in that it keeps out all but the most serious player.

 Â    So, theoretically, no proxies leads to highest levels of play quality while unlimited proxies leads to greatest number of participants.  Limiting the number of proxies seeks to balance the two while still maintaining a barrier to entry that ensures the participant is somewhat serious about the format.  Traditionally (past four years or so) the number of proxies was limited to five.  Five proxies allowed the participant to build a decent, competitive deck but required the player to collect all but the most expensive of cards.  Five proxy limits recognized that the player without every good, expensive card couldn't build every good, expensive deck.  The five proxy limit rewarded the individual who had every card by forcing the proxied player to play sometimes sub-optimal decks.

 Â    Ten proxies, which is becoming increasingly trendy, allows most participants to play with the very best cards and build all but the most expensive of decks.  Participants are still required to collect, but, at most, they have to buy or borrow two or three cards that cost over $100.  For most, this is considered an acceptable barrier to entry (find the two or three expensive cards needed or play a less expensive deck).  The participant is still required to collect numerous cards that range from $5-$30, but even average collectors should be able to find or borrow most of those cards easily.  I most highly endorse the 10 proxy limit.  I find that 10 proxies allows for the highest level of tournament participation while maintaining the integrity of the format.

 Â    If ten proxies is good, twelve is better, right?  Or twenty?  No.  At some point tournament play gets worse.  Bad players who don't take the format seriously will compete in tournaments.  Instances of mistakes and cheating will increase.  I understand that 12 proxies is an attempt to get Legacy crossover (after all, if they have the duals, forces, brainstorms and fetches already, they can proxy the rest).  If the player is serious and WANTS to be in our format and WANTS to take the format seriously, they will find the cards and be competitive within the 10 proxy limit.

When is the Tournament of Champions again?

Also, two tournaments on the same weekend will be tough for some of us with families.  If they were on different weekends, I'd gladly go to both.  Same weekend, though, and I'm pretty much sticking to Dreamer's.

Thanks for the info, though.

I think you have two different decks rolled into one.  Generally, that's not good.

Do you want to find the Naught/Mask combo fast and kill an opponent quickly, or do you want uber-disruption, like Shaman, Wretch and Chains that hose other deck strategies?  Right now you have a deck that is trying to do everything and, in doing so, has some weaknesses.

I am in agreement with Mordred in that some of your card selection seems very rando.  Two rando Rack and Ruins.  Two rando Jittes.  The rando Burning Wish.  The Chanis.  These cards don't seem to fit well in your deck strategy.  Let's say you have done a great job of disrupting your opponent.  You have Wasted and Duressed and you have a Gorilla Shaman in play.  Your opponent starts to stabalize after turn four or five.  They start to stabalize, develop a hand, develop a mana base and play threats.  Meanwhile you are drawing Rack and Ruins, Chains or Wretches. 

You have the disruption to slow-down the game and land early blows to your opponent's mana base and hand.  Then what?    Conventional wisdom suggests you do two things:  Find your combo kill, or continue to apply pressure with consistant beats.  The thing is, both require some substantial card drawing... card drawing which you don't really have.

So, pull the Chains.  Pull the Jittes.  Pull the Rack and Ruins.  That's what sideboards are for.  Immagine a sideboard like this:

4 Chains (that would be just so frightingly good!)
3 Rack and Ruin
Then any combination of
Tormod's Crypts or Wretches
Red Blasts
Bloodmoons
Pithing Needles
Cursed Scrolls (anti-fish TECH!)
Engineered Explosives
Powder Keg
Diabolic Edict
Terror (underrated and fun!)

Putting the Racks, Wretches and Chains in the board frees-up just a ton of space.  It leads to more consistant draws against decks, also.  I mean, do you really want to be drawing Wretches when your opponent is playing Fish?  Or Oath?  Or Mono-blue?  Against Slaver, sure it's good, but your 4 Shaman and the ton of disruption are enough to keep active Welders at bay.  Don't you think?

Then, you have space in your deck.  Space for card drawing.  Space for better, more efficient, more utilitarian creatues.  Or even space for more tutors, if you really want to go that route.

Also, if you don't have the Emerald and Sapphire, I would proxy them, cut the Petal and straighten out the mana base a little bit. 

Best of luck, and let us know how it progresses.

Wow, Maxx, good analysis.  I do, however, disagree with some of your logic.


This is overly simplistic for many reasons.  First, Skeletal is not an early game card drawing spell.  It is generally a mid-game spell.  The early game is for Wastes, Gorilla Shaman, EE's, Tutors and Brainsorms.  The strategy is simple, as you mentioned.  ATTACK THE OPPONENT'S STRATEGY.  How?  It's not that hard.

- Build-up a mana base while denying a mana base to the opponent.
- Get your opponent to stall out
- Find a win condition

Now, of course it doesn't always work that way.  That's overly simplistic.  Still, in most of my games I have found that EE and Gorilla are excellent at denying an opponent's strategy.  EE can generally come down unmolested against aggro decks (Food Chains) and can do some serious damage to decks like Fish.  It's inexpensive and can be fueled with Moxes, allowing Wastes to hinder the opponent's mana development.  That means I can dedicated land drops to Wastes while using EE to act as a semi-board sweeper. 

But, yes, if ALL I do is Brainstorm, waste and hold on to a Mana Drain for three turns and hope to topdeck into answers, then I will most likely lose agasint other decks.



Aah.  Here is the problem.  My deck has a pretty low mana curve compared to other Keeperesque decks.  No 4cc spells, like Exalted, and very few mana intensive spells (4xScrying).  I am not counting Platinum Angel and Darksteel here.  I usually end-up Tinkering them out.  So, if I draw a bunch of cards off a Scrying, I'm going to fill my hand with Shaman, Brainsorms, EE's, counterspells and mana.  I won't have useless Cunning Wishes that I can't cast.

This brings me to my next point.  CUNNING WISH IS ASS!  It is not a very good card in control decks.  I used to love Cunning Wish, but it has fallen out of favor with me tremendously.  It's soooooo slow and it is very mana intensive.  Most of the answers in the board are black or red.  That means if you are going to Cunning Wish early you need blue, but it can't be a basic Island ulness you have the moxes to support your wish target.  You can't Cunning Wish early for Edict, for example, because by the time you Fetch an Island and then Fetch again for an Underground Sea, the equiped Rootwalla has hit you and it's too late.  EE is just better.  Especially in the current Fish-laden metagame.  Further, with 5x Wastelands maindeck, Cunning Wish is sub-par.  4xEE is far better, I have found. 

Also, in this Fish laden (multi-color Fish, none the less) metagame, 5 Waste/Strip is a must.  Most decks running Fetchlands will have two or three basics.  They can fetch a basic land, or two, but Wastelands can cut off a color again.  When Pithing Needle comes into the format, one of the first plays for most decks will be to play Needle naming Wasteland.  (Shaman and EE in my deck take care of the Needle).

So, we profoundly disagree on the nature of a control deck.  I feel that Cunning Wish is horrible right now.  I feel that Duress, while a good card, is not good in the current metagame.  I feel that the Waste/Shaman/EE strategy of controling an opponent's mana base is superior.  EE/Shaman provides tremendous card advantage and redundency.  You feel that the deck should be about the flexibility of Cunning Wish combined with a tremendous number of card drawing spells.  It's all about card advantage.  I just see it in a different way.

Well, you have to rely on Welders for a win condition.  Welders can be somewhat fragile in the current meta.  Also, I don't know many Slaver decks that try to lock down a mana base with Waste, Crucible, Explosives, Monkey. 

Slaver and Keeper are different decks.  Different strengths, weaknesses and strategies.  Slaver has a very tough time against Oath, doesn't it?  Doesn't Slaver have a tough match-up against Fish?  If your argument is that Slaver is supposed to be the evolution of contro, I just have to disagree.  People said the same thing about Tog two years ago, and where is Tog now?

As for this:
White.  To cut white or not?  That is the question.

Option 1: Add white, cut Wastelands, go with the Needle and possibly Medling Mage and control the opponent's spell base.

Option 2: Cut white, go with Wastelands - Shaman - Crucible - Explosives and control the opponent's mana base.

I like controling the mana base.  I find it to be far more reliable when you don't know what your opponent is playing.  That's not to say that White is wrong.  I just found that it was all too easy for my opponents to disrupt MY mana base when playing 4cc instead of 3cc.  Also, I think the Needle isn't as good as many seem to believe.  I feel it is a card that is handy against some decks, but it's uses are narrow agaisnt an extremely varried metagame.  What do you do with your first turn needle agaisnt round 1 rando?  If you know your opponent it's a very handy card to have.  But in a field of unknowns...

I don't think I'd cut Scrying for Thirst.  I hate the discard aspect of Thirst and I love the fact that I can drain into a big Scrying.  Still, I might add one Thrist for now (in place of the rando Fire/Ice) and see how it goes.