It isn't just mana cost for Scyring either.  That's not that big a deal for a Tog deck that's trying to play pure control.  In fact, that's quite good.

The problem is the overall plan of Tog.  Scyring is better if it's playing control, but Tog also plays combo, aggro-control, aggro, combo-control, aggro-combo...  It just sucks playing Scyring if the deck is trying to play anything other than control, which limits the deck that othewise is the most versitle deck possably ever created.

I hear tell that Power Condruit can make it to where it's only upkeep is 1 forever, not cumulative.  This is, however, a rather anoying and frequently costly combo.  Both in terms of the mana required to do it and the space it would take up in the deck.

It's really not that powerful unless you are playing Landstill or Fish, and even then it's only good if you can FORCE your opponant to play a lot of cards and you have the mana back to support it.  In both cases, and pritty much every case for that matter, Standstill is just out and out better to begine with.  The card doesn't suck, it's just already replaced by a card with more function, that also happens to usually be better and cheaper and allows more opportunity to counter the spells that really matter.

If there are five cards in the deck that never get used, why NOT make them FoW and possably Stifle, which are cards that can at least help in the mirror?

I have never played the deck, so it's all just theory to me, but that just sounds like common sense to me.

It's impractical for my build since I don't have the card draw to pull it off first and second turn consistantly, but the Ub versions just don't use it because they can get clunky and Illusionary Mask has absolutely no other uses in the deck but fodder and 'Naught.

I can't stress how much good play is important to this deck.  If you don't know the deck well, you WILL loose.

Berserk is vital to the deck pulling third turn kills 70% of the time (and that is solitare, but also against slower combo decks like Eggs of Wisdom and traditional Trix).  However, from what you guys are saying, the turn three kill is really meaningless at such a high percent if the deck has no staying power.  That I would agree with if it wasn't for being able to pull off 10/10 creatures second and third turn nicely and frequently.  Not 'Naughts, but huge none the less.

I'm thinking cut green for blue for that problem to be solved.  Fling can just as easily be Shrapnal Blast.  Both are great, I just love being able to throw a 15/16 Atog for the kill...

The strength of the deck is that it can play three ways:   Combo, fast aggro and just plain big.

I disagree though that the deck can survive on only artifact lands.  From the mana problems that I had with this deck until I tweeked it so much it's just annoying to think about, I can honestly say that I don't think there is any chance of that happening without some serious luck.

Yes.  I have.  They are great cards and I wouldn't mind putting them MD at all, it's just that my personal play style tends to make me say "Who needs to disrupt when you can just kill?" and I follow that philosophy quite often unless the deck arctype demands differantly.

jpmeyer hit exactly what my problem with the Diciple build is:  they scoop too often for me.

Understand that I'm not trying to defend my deck, but I can explaine soem of the thought behind it.

I playtested Diciple and Berserk both.  I found that Berserk usually did on average four more damage than Diciple.  Even though it's not unpreventable, I liked how that worked out.  It's especially powerful with Atog and has netted me a turn three kill vertually every time I have pulled it against combo decks in game one.

Myr Enforcer is seriously expensive.  It may appear to be a turn one 4/4, but in most cases it just flat out wasn't.  It generally didn't even get played without Workshop until turn three, and that was too little, too late.  Serious Mana Drain target.

Myr Moonvessel was insaine.  With Skullclamp it was vertually a mini-Ancestral, plus it's a decent creature on it's own.  With Atog or Ravager it usually let me play one more artifact to sac for the last points of damage.

Tolarian Acadimy is absolutely invaluable to the deck.  The ability to darw 30 extra cards off a single Skullclamp in one turn lies within Tolarian alone (and I'm not kidding, I actually did that once and close to it several times, around 22-26).

Tooth of Chiss-Goria only got cut because of Fling and Berserk.  If they are aoust, Tooth is more than strong enough to put back in.

I don't like Arcbound Crusher in the deck.  Without Workshop it's never played fast enough, and if it's not played first turn, it's no longer any good.  Besides, it doesn't have to shear power of Atog or the flexability of Ravager, and usually ends up being an expensive Myr Enforcer.

I think it depends more on the deck than anything else.  Scyring and FoF are both great cards, but sometimes one is just better than the other.

Look at Keeper.  It runs both maindeck most times, and usually only one Scyring even though it's not restricted.  In Keeper FoF is just a better card more often becaues it's the more mana effeciant "bad tutor" and a cheaper draw engine.

However, I have seen some experimental Stax decks splashing black over blue to get Scyring and tutors over big blue and friends.  According to those players it just made more sense for the builds of the deck they wanted to aim for.  I'm not convinced the logic is there for that due to how perminant reliant the decks are, but they were pulling out locks faster with less reliance on extra mana than the Ru versions.

Very true.  Admitadly this deck was built just after the TPS and 0-2 land Belcher decks reached their prime and started to fall slightly.  It aimed at hitting the weaknesses in their decks slight inconsistancys.

It's not as strong now as it once was, but again, that's why I'm here.

Depending on the control deck, yes at times.

It's quite possable to kill third turn without having to use Berserk or Fling, but that only happens about 10% of the time.  Typically the deck will kill turn four with or without 'zerk/Fling, they are only in there to give the deck a fighting chance against combo decks.  Without them it suffers the same fate every other purely aggro deck does to the hands of combo.

I say turn four or five because there are times that it's difficult to do those last two or three damage without Fling or Berserk turn four.  That's one of the biggest reasons for sideboarded Shrapnal Blast too.

The deck only plays out that way when playing against combo decks.  Against everything else it goes for less explosiveness and more beatdown over the long game.  Against control decks I take out Atog for Welder so their counters are neutered until they get rid of it.  I can usually kill control decks turn four of five just playing like Stompy.  It's actually a pritty flexable deck.

It's a wash, but I like the filtering of Foothills so I don't get useless lands later.

If you really want to read how this deck came about, here's the address to the wizards.com boards topic I created for it.  You'll see it started out much differant than it ended up:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=189567

Originally I was running blue, but I found that it just made the deck choppy.  More often than not I would be waisting mana drawing cards instead of just drawing the cards I needed to begine with.  Splashing for draw actually proved to drop the consistancy of the deck rather than improve it.

Oh, by the way, the name of the deck is Virus (which I believe Veru came up with if memory serves me right).  It eats everything in sight and than just kills.

It has been requested of me that I bring this deck from the Wizards.com boards here for further inspection of it.  I'm averaging turn three kills or better about 70% of the time.

[list=]
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 " Jet
1 " Pearl
1 " Ruby
1 " Saphire
3 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Acadimy (more stable than Workshop and just as fast)
4 Taiga
1 Tree of Tails
2 Great Furnace
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Myr Moonvessel
4 Arcbound Worker
3 Arcbound Slith
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Atog
3 Frogmite
2 Myr Enforcer
4 Skullclamp
4 Berserk
4 Fling

Sideboard:

4 Goblin Welder
3 Shrapnal Blast
4 Tromnod's Crypt
4 Naturalize
[/list]

It's fast beyond all extent of reason, but I know it can still be improved.

Arcbound Slith is in there because it's great against control and solid against aggro, but comes out against combo decks.  I keep being asked about that one so I thought I would just out and say it this time.

Thoughts are always welcome, and suggestions are kinda why I'm here...