I always throught this deck should splash black for Dark Confidant as it is the most insane draw engine possible for the deck.  I don't know if that's been tested or not, so if it is feel free to ignore me

Sorry, I can't read X_X.  Mostly I was just being an advocate of the cognivore route.  I was always very pleased with it.

Back during the Tinker-era of extended a few years ago, I ran a r/g oath deck, but I used the popular-at-the-time Cognivore as the kill.  It was chock full of burn, and also played a card that just seemed to be a wrecking ball: Fling. 

I never got to seriously play it, because 1) no Orchid, 2) Tinker rapped it.

Just some food for thought.

Rick Dupont and University of Central Florida

Next year you can play a dragon deck, but with no other creatures in the deck   Well, you can run squee, just have some way or removing them or not having them in the yard for when you go off.

Superpower: Levitation
Retarded Super Power: Ability to only levitate at 10000 miles in the air.

Super power: Walking over water
Retarded Super Power: Walking on a bed without it moving too much (but still moving a little bit).

Super power: Screams that cause sonic booms that knock down your foes
Retarded Super Power: Screaming so that people are forced to punch infants.  Aka like Ashlee Simpsons

Super power: Covering yourself in some element, like Fire (human torch) or Ice (iceman).
Retarded Super Power: Covering yourself in poison ivy.  No, not the plant, the rash.

Super power: heat vision
Retarded Super Power: lukewarm or Room temperature vision.

When does ansobulte nothing happen in the game in which you would want to hardcast a 4cc permanent that doesn't win you the game?

Like I said...there are just better things to do and better cards to play in this deck.

Simulacrum is a great card.  Believe me, I am in now way saying the opposite.  I love the guy.

HOWEVER...there are better things you can do and at cheaper costs.  Activating mindslaver and winning the game comes to mind, and it costs the same as Jens.  Rack and Ruin costs 1 less, and blows up stax's threats, as opposed to playing AROUND them.  Chalice can prevent Fish's critters from seeing play...Fire/Ice can blow dem up good.

It's a good card, but there are better options.

I checked the rules, and didn't see any rules against rec-suring old topics.

I've recently grown tired on MonoU and once again want to return to my old habits of turning Juggernaut's sideways.

Plus, I gots me 4 DCI ones.  It pains me to see them sitting in my binder doing nothing.

Jacob: I was wondering if you had done any work on this deck recently.  Your last post indicated that you had been testing red over white, what were your conclusions? 

I agree completely.  Mirrodin meant lots and lots of artifacts, which is vintage's best friend.  Kamigawa was full of..um...legends.  Yeah...we all know how much t1 loves legends...

I'm fairly certain that Team Paragon was the original T1 team that included members of Shortbus and Meandeck.  The team split mostly due to areas which people came from...namely the northeast consisted of Meandeck and Shortbus is...wherever they are 0_0...

During the "boom" of Vintage in 04 it seemed like the entire community was pulling together to further the format.  Tournaments were getting a lot of promotion, the SCG p9 tournaments were pulling everyone together, united in their need for further promotion.  Decks were being tuned by everyone, and thoughts were being thrown out en masse for others to run with.  Then, for some reason, all that seemed to stop.  The only time we ever heard about a deck was heard about or discussed was well after it was debuted in a tournament.

Now, I agree that teams do want their secret tech to be hidden until they storm a tournament with it so that they can win money/cards/etc...that makes perfect since.  I remember at one point during 04 that the monday after origins there was a smmenem article about MonoU.  It was a pre-tournament report, before he had even gone to the tournament.  He detailed all of his tests, his card choices, cards he had tried, cards he thought about trying...it was very comprehensive.  Rarely do you see something like that nowadays.  I haven't really seen an article like that in a long time.

This revealing of decks post-tournament has somewhat created a demand for results.  A deck or idea doesn't even seem to be considered worthy of anyone's attention unless it has shown results in a tournament.  And unfrotunately, not everyone has the skills necessary to improve a deck design to make it tournament worthy, or good enough to place high enough in a tournament.  This seems to stifle quite a few ideas that others may not think of or even consider just due to the fact that, while quite innovative, not developed enough to be tournament worthy. 

In order to continue to improve and further the format, people need to be more open to ideas from more people, they need to be willing to try out just about anything, not just dismiss something.  It's hard to say something is going to be bad if you haven't tested it or attempted to improve it.

It's hard to compare Ophie to Dimir Cutpurse.  The reason that Phid was so good was because normally you were casting him off drain mana.  I know that I constantly drained something, then used 2 of the mana and a single mana source on my turn to lay down an ophie, leaving plenty of mana available for counter-backup.

With Dimir you absolutely have to tap out in order to play it, unless you try to circumvent that with some sort of mana-fixing spell...none of which are very good that are available.

Finkle has the same mana-problem as Dimir, but Finkle has evasion, which means a LOT.

The mana I think is the main reason why Dimir, while really awesome, not playable.

Anyone want to get www.zherbusrules.com and have it redirect to tmd?

I highly doubt that SCG would pay people to try to show support in the merge.  This isn't the Bush administration, it's StarCityGames.  They have done a lot for the vintage community, and they have done a lot for magic as a whole. 

A few days ago I was asking myself "I haven't heard from Zherbus in a while....probably around a year!  I wonder what's going to happen to TMD, is it on a yearly contract for the hosting?  Will he continue to foot the bill if he isn't doing anything for the site anymore?"

Now we have our answer, it's going to stay here, and just a measly ad-banner on the top of the page (note: not a pop-up, merely an ad-banner.  Has anyone ever been annoyed by the one on SCG?).

I would say that Sundering Titan had a major impact.  While it may not be that powerful at the moment...it's presence changed the way people built their mana bases.

Oh, there is Vintage interest allright, at least there WAS.

About 4 people were really intersted in T1, but it all centered in Orlando.

Unfortunately...

I moved away, another guy got his deck stolen, and another one passed away.

So Vintage, for the moment, seems to be wanning...

Someone is bitter...

Anyways, I actaully like the deck, though I'm not sure about the inclusion of red.  It just seems like wasteland or two would make your deck cry, have you tested the fish matchup (or any other wasteland.dec match)?

Well, you can EOT Enlighten Tutor up a win condition, like a Juggs or a Trike/Titan....

After doing some preliminary testing, I've discovered that the loss of Mishra's Workshop only hurts the speed because of the loss of an easier turn 1 Su-Chi.  Unless I had Workshop + Mox Sapphire, it would be turn 3 Until I would get a chance to Transmute.

However, with my current mana set-up...I can get a turn 2 Su-Chi with...

2 lands + Dark Ritual
2 Lands + Sol Ring
2 Lands + Mana Crypt
1 Land + Mana Vault
Ancient Tomb + Sol Ring
Ancient Tomb + Mana Crypt (Turn 1!)
Land + Lotus Petal + Dark Ritual

As well as getting the turn 2 suchi turn 3 transmute...

Turn 1 Land, turn 2 Ancient Tomb + Dark Rit -> Gilded Lotus
Turn 1 Land, Sol Ringl.  Turn 2 Dark rit -> Gilded Lotus.

Both of these plays pretty much assure that I'll have enough mana for the rest of game (barring removal).

The only problem I have run into so far is the 20 counterspell.dec BBS ripoff that someone is playing.  Since I don't have the explosiveness that the Moxen provide me outside of the Suchi Combo (Lotus + Shop -> Triskelion), I can't sneak things in under countermagic (though, if I am on the play, turn 2 Su-Chi could go all the way since he doesn't run FoW, yay budget to the extreme!).  Therefore, defense grid is definately going to be in the sideboard.  It can come out with...

turn 1:
Ancient Tomb
Land + Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Land + Mana Vault/Dark Ritual (I'll take a mana burn to stop his entire deck).

Turn 2 is just obvious, and if I am first on the play, I can drop it before they get counter mana open, outside of a random Daze/Force Spike or a Lotus Petal or something.

Alright, let me explain first the reasoning behind building this deck.

I recently moved to the Panhandle of Florida, so instead of having wonderful 10-proxy tournaments every sunday...I am now left with *shudder* Sanctioned Type 1 tournaments.  This wouldn't be so bad, except for the fact that I am currently lacking the funds to get Power, Drains, and/or Workshops.  Therefor, I have to work with what I possess, which is pretty much everything else (duals, FoW, Welders, Artifact goodness...)

I also know that I don't have to deal with other people with power, or high-quality decks for that matter.  For example, I know a person who is playing Cognivore Oath, and a person running the High Tide - Palinchrone combo.

Working off what I know I posses (or can easily get) I brainstormed on a "budget" version of The Roscoe.

For reference, here is a list of Roscoe (at least, the list that I ran with proxies that I grew to know and love).

latinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
4 Goblin Welder
4 Su-Chi

1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mindslaver
1 Memory jar

4 thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Transmute Artifact
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 Fire/Ice

1 Grim Monolith
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Saphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Manavault
2 Gilded Lotus

4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Flooded Strand

Bolded are the "power cards" that I don't posses, or have a way of getting.  Taking these losses into account, here is my first version of Budget Roscoe

Cleveland Steamer V.1 (name pending)

4 Su-Chi
2 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Pentavus

2 Goblin Welder
4 Transmute Artifact
1 Tinker

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Crucible of the Worlds
1 Memory Jar
1 Jester's Cap

4 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
3 Gilded Lotus
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Stripmine

I wanted to go for a more straight artifact-beatdown route with the deck, hence the added number of creatures.  I really really have fallen in love with Triskelion, which is why it gets the nod over other creatures to increase the count of.  Platinum Angel is a given, as is Sundering Titan, though he does have a higher risk of blowing up more lands since I am running a third color.  The Pentavus has been added to at least give me some fodder to use with my Goblin Welder, seeing as how I don't have a vomit of Mox to use at my disposal anymore.

The reduced Goblin Welder amount is solely because I don't except a lot of artifact hate, plus the fact that I can't abuse it as easily with the budget concerns. 

The next thing to address is the addition of black.  Since I don't have an abundant amount of Moxen nor Mishra's Workshop to use to my full advantage, I decided to try out the one-shot Workshop that is Dark Ritual.  Ideally, a turn 1 land, turn 2 land + dark rit -> Su-Chi, which will allow for me to use Su-Chi.  After adding in Black, the next obvious two cards would obviously be Yawgmoth's Win, as well as Demonic Tutor (to replace the Mystical Tutor that I originally had.

The Jester's Cap may seem random, but I don't know if there is any combo in the meta, plus if I can get it out quickly against Oath it seems like it would be easy to win. 

The mana base is the only thing I am really shaky on.  I wanted to make sure I got plenty of colored mana, and I didn't want to be totally screwed against Wasteland.dec(s), since I am not completely sure what is going to be played at any of the tournaments.  I was able to retain my 4 basic lands from the original list, and Ancient Tomb can hopefully help out where Mishra's Workshop used to be.

Any comments, suggestions, and questions are appreciated.

Thanks,
Zeke

Monoblue Revisited, Mar 05
Ben Kowal

4 Ophidian
2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Powder Keg

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection

4 Impulse
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
10 Island


This was a decklist posted by Kowal on my thread about MonoU.  He was very adament about skipping creatures and running Shackles/Phid beatdown. 

Here are a couple of versions that I have been playing around with.

Spell Control:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
1 Misdirection
3 Chalice of the Void

Board Control:
3 Back to Basics
2 Powder Keg

Win:
4 Ophidian
2 Vedalken Shackles

Draw:
3 Impulse
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Mana:
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
3 Polluted Delta
10 Islands

Sideboard:
3 Seal of Removal
3 Energy Flux
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Old Man of the Sea
1 Back to Basics
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Chalice of the Void


And going with the more traditional Morphling kill...

Spell Control:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
3 Chalice of the Void

Board Control:
3 Back to Basics
2 Powder Keg

Win:
4 Ophidian
2 Morphling

Draw:
4 Impulse
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor

Mana:
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
3 Polluted Delta
11 Islands

Sideboard:
3 Seal of Removal
3 Energy Flux
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Old Man of the Sea
1 Back to Basics
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Chalice of the Void

(Obviously the lack of fetches are due to my personal lack of fetches, just take away islands until you have as many fetches as you wnat...)

The reason I liked Fire/Ice was mostly because of Ice, so that I could tap down fat until I get something to remove it.  Of course, the only fat removal I have is Waterfront Bouncer and Gilded Drake.  If I did replace it with anything, it would probably not be Daze, as without Spiketail  don't think it's as effective.  Possibly MisD or stifle?

I loved U/R Fish.  It was, without a doubt, one of the most fun decks that I had played in quite a long time.  However, the thing that made it the most fun was after I made my own changes to it.  Namely, removing horrible cards like Voidmage Prodigy.  I also experimented with Lavamancer-ish cards for the deck, namely Razorfin Hunter and Suq’Ata Firewalker.

With the resurgence of Fish decks, I’ve found that most of the creatures would be quite vulnerable to the removal that is found in U/R Fish.  U/W would be decimated, while mongrel would become less deadly due to all the pumps that would need to be used in order to keep in on the field (though it is still quite a problem…)

After kicking around ideas in my head a few times, here is a rough list that I’ve come up with.

3 Spiketail Hatchling
2 Flying Man
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Razorfin Hunter

4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Curiosity
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mountain
3 Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

Many of you will notice the absence of the PhidNinja, but seeing as how over half the creatures in the deck don’t attack, he isn’t as great as normally.  Also, with the fact that it says “deals damage to an opponent” and not combat damage, I’ve elected to go with Curiosity to support Standstill as a draw engine. 

In order to try to maximize Aether Vial, I’ve kept all the creatures in the 1 and 2 drop, which is why Razorfin Hunter is chosen over cards like Suq’Ata or any other pinger.

The 3 Spiketail Hatchling and 2 Flying Men are used more or less out of lack of thought for any other creature.

After some initial testing, Aether Vial seems rather…unnecessary in the deck, though it does seem quite good still.  I think that the current creature set cannot abuse Vial as the deck should, so there are two places to go with the deck.

U/R Phish (No Vial)

2 Suq’Ata Firewalker
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Razorfin Hunter

4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Curiosity
2 Fire/Ice
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Chalice of the Void

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mountain
3 Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

U/R Phish (With Vial)

3 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Gilded Drake
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Razorfin Hunter

4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Curiosity
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mountain
3 Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

The Vial-less version can increase it’s creature-base away from only 2 kinds of drops, and thus Suq’Ata gets an inclusion into the deck.  Curiosity also goes to a 4-of, due to the increased amount of “pingers” in the deck.  Fire/Ice also makes a maindeck introduction, just because I think the card is great.  It is removal that can also handle oath (tap your guy) and replaces itself in that form.

The version with Vial borrows a trick from the U/W deck from Extended.  You can use Gilded Drake to steal a creature, then bounce the Drake back to your hand.  With Vial, this can be done at instant speed, not given your opponent a chance to use the creature they play, nor a chance to use the Drake.  It can also throw it out as a surprise blocker.  With 5/3-ish decks and Oath rising in popularity in it’s various forms, stealing an opponent’s creature permanently without having to protect another creature at the same time seems rather strong (as opposed to SeaSinger, which dies to Triskelion and Ancient Hydra).

A lot of people are fearing Old Man of the Sea, in which I like to have a special Sideboard card for it.  It’s a little old friend of the Red Mage…Lightning Bolt.  How convenient that Old Man has 3 toughness (though a pinger + fire/ice works just as well…and with the increased amount of pingers in the deck it may be unnecessary for Lightning Bolt, but having to only rely on 1 card is great).  Lightning Bolt also combines with a single pinger to take care of Platinum Angel.

Truthfully, the only reason I am working on this deck is because I hate U/W fish with an unbridled passion, though I am not quite sure why.  Perhaps U/R has become a “pet deck”, perhaps it’s because I lost to it once when I refused to draw more than 2 lands for an entire match.  Either way, comments, suggestions, and questions are all appreciated.

A lot of people seem to be saying that both Null Rod and Vial/Chalice Fish could "abuse" Standstill the same.  And then they go and talk about how good players break standstill at EOT, to force the player to discard.

Remember that Aether Vial lets you play creatures at INSTANT SPEED.  Meaning, if the standstill get broken, instead of discarding cards, you get to play a creature that you have freshly drawn (or at worst, just have to discard less cards).

I am a big supporter of Aether Vial/Chalice fish.  I liked it the minute I saw it come out, and I was kicking myself for not thinking about it myself, seeing as how I have always been a big Fish fan.

My main question has to do with the disappearance of red.  Did Grim Lavamancer and Fire/Ice just not make the cut anymore?  I would think that Lavamancer would still be one of the best creatures that the deck could play (and infinitely better than a card like Ictian Javinaleers, or however you spell it). 

It's good to see someone actually wanting to use Mike Long's World (aka Enter the Dungeon).  It was the only non-land card out of Unhinged that I wanted copies of.

I'm curious as to why Armadillo Cloak didn't make the list, especially since it is GW, like the deck.

The only decks packing Null Rod are fish decks, and those may have been regaining popularity, but not enough to warrent the removal of shackles.  Every other deck in the format relies too much on either artifacts to win, or the mana accel from Moxen to use Null Rod.  I don't think we have to worry about that.

And I also don't think anone here suggested Ninja of the Deep Hours for the deck.  If anything, I'd run Theiving Magpie over the Ninja.

Whenever I cast ophie it always seems to be off a mana drain, so i rarely have to pay more than U for it.

Back to Basics is such a good card, though.  There has to be some room to fit it into the deck.  After playing a bit I don't exactly want to remove MisD, but possibly cut it to 1?  We could cut 1 MisD, 1 impulse, and we only have to find room for 1 more card to put (unless, we run 61 cards).