here's how I would envision a nice play:

turn 1
land + mox = null rod
turn 2
wasteland, duress go

or

turn 1
mishra's factory + mox = null rod
turn 2
land, attack for two
may not have the greatest synergy with null rod, but turn two beat for two is better than a turn two, go.

I would say off the duress, or the mini beats you've already got a good game going, you can duress away a counterspell or an oath, or you can just start to beat face. Oath of druids is also an excellent play, though that has already been mentioned.

A problem I've found with null rod is that it's almost a crutch. If I'm playing a deck that relies a lot on null rod, ie. fish I'm looking to get it out on turn one or two for sure. if I don't my game plan is kinda looking rough, because lord knows they are gonna go mox mox lotus broken on my ass and I may as well scoop. or, if I see an opening hand with mox, land, rod, I'm bound to keep it because everyone knows that a null rod first turn is pretty good normally. now I could have had crap in the rest of my hand, but I would rely on old faithful to help me out, and just sit behind a lousy null rod and do nothing the rest of the game.

now if I do have null rod out, I've lost my mana acceleration (God willing so have they), and when I do draw null rod off the top of my deck (which is bound to happen with slow fish) it's a dead card.

I wouldn't worry about wastelands keeping you off mana too much. If you fear wastelands, I would certainly make room for pithing needles They can screw over most decks. What deck doesn't have something with some activated ability? and if you find them useless, side them out!

I would say that regardless of what is on the board, card advantage is everything. How can you avoid "groundpounders" or big creatures without cards in your hand, or drawpower? And shock or no, I'd take a chump blocker every turn that draws me answers if I had the choice.

Eandori, I would say that your version of slaver is merely focused towards your meta, not superior to other builds, or inferior by all means. You've done what you needed to do to win. You've defended your version very well justifying your reasons for cards. I would find no reason to run all of the cards that you run, not meaning you shouldn't run those cards.

I was the:
opponent. The deck showed some awesome potential. I was playing bridshit against him. What would I meddling mage, honestly? That turn one lions is savage, but, wtf? Would I mage the hound which he can only play a one of (at a time)? Do I mage the true believer when I don't have anything that really targets him? This deck was awesome to see in action. Our last match came down literally to the last turn, where it was you with enough blockers, and me with not just enough for a kill.

I think even one crusade in the deck would do wonders. It's force bait for your opponent, who likes a 3/2 or 3/3 swinging at them when they can prevent it? It is pyroclasm avoidance, and how many type one creatures that aren't crazy casting cost (or played avoiding the casting cost) are greater than 1/1 or 2/2? Think about the turn one lotus, crusade, lions/hound? Then turn two you've open mana for two more lions/hounds or a believer... You're still playing the curv with a crusade, even as a one of.

Also I noticed that silver knight was suggested. That's a very good idea against goblins. It would eat every single goblin they could ever play (especially accompanied by a crusade!). Side board them if you feel goblins as a potential threat for the day.

Nice job rendering the deck and I give you props for being brave enough to play it, and whats better, pull through with it. I look forward to playing you again.

I like the looks of this deck.

But I think that one of the best things fish can do is play cards under standstill, right? U/R Gay fish could essentially do that with faerie conclaves, factories, and cloud of faeries cast multiple times then tossing a standstill down. but here it just looks like you cast a standstill and you can't play under it like u/w fish can with aether vial.

also, how does your u/w fish matchup look?

I believe that is why knowing how to properly sideboard makes the deck useable against multiple archetypes. For wastes, you've got sacred ground, (edited due to brainfart). And don't forget, a lot of times when an opponent CoV's, it slows them down a little as well, because they do probably have 2 cc spells, 1cc spells, etc. Sure it might be part of their game plan, but it does slow them down and give you room to play.


I think exit is right here. You can play under null rod. Sure it's gonna hinder you, but what game doesn't have a few curve balls thrown in your face? You roll with the punches and play through them. This is also why familiarity with the metagame is also clutch. One certainly has to know what to look out for and when to hold their cards and show them. When to explode all over their face and when not to.

has it been effectively tested to run clouds and boas? two evasive creatures are by far better than one right? not to mention the fact that adding in fairies over CoTH gives you one more thing pitchable to force of will. also something I've tended to do most often is place the curiosity on the grim lavamancer and ping or attack the opponent and draw a card with it. it's another form of damage (Irrelevant digression removed. ) of which you can draw a card or two off.

though I think to utilize the faerie's maximum ability of untapping up to two lands and then dropping a standstill in the opponent's face wouldn't it be optimum to run four instead of three faeries as suggested?

very true breath weapon. river boas have an evasion factor that dryads do not. so I guess the choice of the boas and the dryads come down to this: evasion regenerator with curiosity? or a massive creature eater?

I like what you've stated and written here. it was written in a very logical and well organized fashion, kudos to you. but you act like you made such a revelation. when in fact, you basically only changed about four cards in the deck.

the up to date version most people are running in wtf/r (I believe) is 6 fetches, probably 1-2 oxidize (if any), maybe 2 stifles, 1-2 call of the herd, and of course, brainstorm over standstill.

yes, it does make sense to run standstill with cloud of faeries. you drop a cloud, then you drop a standstill. that's a powerful play where you can lay beats like it's nobody's business while drawing cards. you can utilize that and be none the wiser.

however, in the match against fish, brainstorm would be appear to be superior. they can run conclaves, and factories, when you can only run the factories, and when you draw into standstill you're like, crap, I can't use the stanstill. not to say that you can use brainstorm that easily either, you'd still have to break the standstill to be able to brainstorm. it has always appeared to me that the person who wins the match against fish is the person who resolves the pinger first. you drop a spiketail, I ping it. you resolve a cloud, I ping it. but, if you drop a call of the herd they say, I can't ping this, can I? yes, the call of the herd is mana hungry and maybe it needs a relacement (rogue elephants? lol) this does look like a decent build, but I hardly think that in comparison the orlove build of wtf/r is suboptimal.

nice work though and good evidence, it's nice to see that you just didn't say, that build is crap, this build is superior.

I think you're all missing the point of my post.

when I played the deck, it ran smoothly. it was very well balanced, not susceptible to color screwage or anything. I was skeptic at first whether or not with the three colors would go over well. but after playing it at a tournament, it went very well and there were no kinks at all. the brainstorms worked most well, and I don't think that I would need standstill. the only issue I had was that in comparison to fish, this deck doesn't draw as well. but it didn't matter really. I don't think that the draw is an issue with the 2/1 regenerating beasticks, w00t!

my comment on the akroma was just a cheapshot at my friend who said there would be no reanimation and I wouldn't need the crypt's in my sideboard. but it's all good and he knows that.

but as to the recomendation of the return to hand spell, I think that I may be able to ditch a 4th stifle to do it. I would play echoing truth over chain of vapor. it returns all with the same name for the same casting cost 1U as opposed to UU, and there is no chance of it coming back at your face (ignoring misdirection or any other type of counter-action spell).

I like the idea of taking out the chalices. I can't tell you how many times I've drawn a late game chalice with bfd and been like, w00t, a dead card, or been playing another workshop deck and saying to myself, I wish I had an earlier fatty like juggernaut.

it's a very good idea adding in the 'nauts, but I think you agree when I say you might as well take out the colossus, it really is just useful with tinker. however, I don't see that getting enough mana to actually hardcast it is that difficult. on the mana, I don't really see how you won't have an artifact in play, so maybe you should cut the other shivan reef for another glimmervoid? it certainly seems like you'll always have an artifact in play to be able to utilize it, and it isn't pain land. though I think that the difference between a single glimmervoid and a ahivan reef is pretty much trivial.

looks like fun and I'm sure I'll play it sometime. keep working at it and I think keying toward your meta you'll do very well with it.

austin

I noticed that when echoing truth hit the board to bounce something back, people's jaws always dropped and it meant the game went the totally opposite direction. the best thing about it is that there is almost always a use for it. someone breaks a standstill to drop a juggernaut on the board for example, you draw into the echoing truth, there's no need to counter the juggy, you bounce the naut nack to their hand next turn. or if there's a nasty artifact sitting on the board you don't like (ie. tanglewire), you can just echo that back to their hand. it's kinda like stifle in the fact that there is almost always a use for it when you draw it or if youh ave it in your hand. I think after having seen it action it makes a whole lot of sense. my only question is, what did you cut to place the truth in?

last night I played in a local type 1 tournament where there were no proxies, so of course I was unpowered. there were normally 4-5 people there, but this time, there were about 25 people there, it was ridiculous. I was unpowered and missing some cards so I had to make some cuts. my deck list looked like follows:

Creatures:
4x River Boa
4x Spiketail Hatchling
3x Grim Lavamancer
1x Suq'Ata Firewalker
1x Gorilla Shaman
1x Call of The Herd

Spells:
4x Curiosity
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
3x Daze (replacing ancestral)
1x Artifact Mutation

Land:
5x Blue Fetches
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
2x Island (replacing moxen)

My sidebaord is pretty much irrelivant.

All I played against were scrub.dec and two decks which were good one of which by a poor sideboard choice I would have had the match. The first good deck I played was Gay/R Fish. This deck we've all seen before, and I think that wtf/r should have it in the mirror match, but what it honestly appears to come down to is who resolves the grim lavamancer first or the firewalker first. because as soon as one of those hits the board, they can kiss their creatures goodbye and the game is won.

the second deck I played that was decent was a reanimoator deck. no one likes it when an akroma, angel of wrath hits the board followed by a platinum angel. I could deal with the plat, but the akroma just destroyed me. I asked my friend at the beginning of the tournament, think I should put tormod's crypt in my sb? Nah he says, there won't be a need. sure enough, in the first round of finals I play a reanimator deck. owned.

the deck played really very smooth like this. there were very little issues of not being able to pull a land when you needed it, and the factory beats were just awesome. the disruption provided by the 4 maindeck stifles and the 3 dazes were just superb, no one could keep anything on the board long enough for them to makle a critical play, or they never got anything on the board to begin with.

over all, this deck played very very well. it had the control that the fish mirror didn't have normally, and that really hurt them.

one thing this deck kinda of lacks at times is a draw engine. it hurts when you have to pitch curiosity to a force of will, but it hurts more when you have to face a 5/6 flying, trample, haste protection from red, protection from black, first strike, attacking doesn't cause it to tap attacker.  don't think anything can be worked into this deck, I don't think LOA really has a place seeing as it doesn't have the standstill to propel the draw. but the brainstorm is a very very good choice over the standstill. it's hard to lay the beats when you an't break your own standstill.

Hey Hale, it's Austin, the kid who can't play draw7. We met at Speed's house Friday night.

I noticed that you discarded the idea of splashing black. Now I know this may sound cheesey, but if you splashed black, there is always the option of dropping in disciple of the vault. That appears to have amazing synergy with the genesis chamber and clamp combo, as well as any artifacts that just get hosed in the process of games. Also, you can clamp it and or make it a chump blocker. It's a minor detail, but it's something to toy with, but I'm sure you already have.

I like the deck, I watched it being played some in Pittsfield when I wasn't coming in ninth place with a 76 percent win percentage. Lol, good luck and I'll keep an eye on the forum and offer some input.

well, if the deck hates you like it hates me, you should see a plethera of land. it's all I draw I swear to god. I'm thinking of cutting a fourth mishra's factory for something useful, I don't know what yet. maybe a coastal piracy just to ef people up, lol.

well, the thing about CoTH is the fact that it's a one of (with the opportunity for a second off the flashback). So, hopefully, later in the game when you play it to seal the victory, you'd have the backup to play against the manadrain? And for that matter crucible and the riverboa's are prime manadrain targets as well...

it's also missing the daze we've been toying with along with the third null rod. it has to be a completely different metagame there. who would pass up the opportunity for the 3rd or even the 4th null rod with the amount of artifacts that we have running around? also, they don't have any maindeck artifact hate either, no oxidize or artifact mutation. This deck looks so much like the gay/r fish build that I don't think it's even a wtf build... they even had a black vise in the sideboard? wtf mate?

so, to recap nataz post and to clear things up, I ask if this is what your deck currently looks like (roughly) for I am obviously a retard:

MD:
1x Gorilla Shaman
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Spiketail Hatchling
4x River Boa
1x Call of the Herd

4x Force of Will
3x Null Rod
4x Brainstorm
4x Curiosity
1x Ancestral Recall
2x daze
2x Crucible of Worlds
3x Stifle

1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
2x Island (one in question here)


something I'm thinking is the possibility of dropping a single island, and maybe adding in a second CoTH or a 4th stifle/daze. I might even go as far to say as to drop the second crucible as well. I think that either the disruption or the beats would be a good call for dropping the island and the 3cc artifact. if the single island is dropped, something to think about would be the last stifle, therfore it would up the count of potential one drops or first turn dazes. I'm hesitant to place another CoTH because it's a 3cc and you would have just dropped a mana source for a large beast.

something I noticed about the deck while fishing today: the disruption is crucial with the small beasts that we've got in the deck. I think sacraficing the one turn (time walk) and the maindeck oxidize for the control aspect is a very very good idea. in doing so, we screw up their tempo and gain our own timewalk without the 2cc slot. let's face the fact that we all want to lay down a second turn riverboa and just lay the unblockable beats on for ten turns for the kill.

I like your list dunedan. but in thinking that you run two stifles, two oxidize, and one crucible, I'd think you could cut one oxidize and one stifle, or a crucible and go with one of the two others? Or maybe an island, because I find that the amount of land I get with almost the same build just doesn't stop coming. I can see that the stifles are just a disgusting utility card, they can always be used whether it's stifling an early or late fetch, an animation of a factory, or a welder or something, they are a utility card that is most useful, so I'd lean more towards an oxidize (and I still insist that artifact mutation should be used over oxidize, though it ups the 2cc spot) and the crucible.

my feelings on crucible maindecked: playing gay/r fish I've been thinking that it does have a place in the sideboard, no question. but maindecked, it seems kind of mana hungry to me. three mana is a lot when you just need all of your land to attack and cast spells. I don't necessarily agree about the maindeck, but the sb most def. you're call though.

I find that once the deck has a counterspell of sorts played against it on a draw7 whether it's FoW, manadrain, daze (god forbid you lose to a daze with this deck) or whatever, it loses it's steam and goes into topdeck mode just too fast to be reliable for a win. it needs to have more ability to have a pick-me-up once you lose a draw7 or a search.

I noticed that too. I was playing last night against gay/r fish and all I seemed to want to draw was just land after land. I couldn't get spells when I needed them, just land. I was running the 6 fetch and 6 land trial version here with the two call of the herd and it was just getting stomped on by the gay/r because I just savagely pulled lands.

oh, and is it possible to get an up to date view of a decklist here? I'm interested to see what everyone's testing out and running, assuming we're fully powered.

and I also like the idea of a maindeck artifact mutation over an oxidize, who expects a maindeck mutation?

yeah, congrats on the win bro, bout time one of us took a tournament. can I get some props for driving your ass all over new england? lol gg, and yes, the savage squishy floor tech of Justin's carpet was key, but I did lose both days, sigh. oh well, team maine puts another on the board.

we should start a poll, should we be: team maine, team hick, team backwoods, team savage topdeck skills, or team sasquatch?

lol, congrats, we should definetly hit up the pittsfield four power tourney if we can swing it.

has anyone given a good look-at to Suq'Ata Firewalker? sure, it's a 3cc, but it'd a 1UU. in that sense, it's pretty good because all of your color producing lands can produce the blue mana. it's good on curiosity, and it's also pitchable to force if worst comes to worst.

also, another possible thing which I think was over looked was the hidden guerillas. a 5/3 trampler if an artifact is cast for one mana? wtf mate ( :lol:  ironic I should use such a word as wtf in this post isn't it?)? that's almost as good as a null rod, what control deck wants a 5/3 trampler pummeling their face on turn two? it screams force me, yes? I understand that it would only be a two of, which kind of hurts, and the mirror against u/r fish (which I guess really wouldn't be a mirror at all would it?) wouldn't be as good, but that's where we have the sb.

but as to the sb choice, I think that the sb is strictly meta dependent. say I walk into this mall tournament where I live and play scrub.dec we've completely missed the meta, right? so, maybe there shouldn't be so much focus on the sb, and not make it as dependent and tight. though I agree the sb is a very important aspect of a deck. but to the sideboard: maybe naturalize isn't such a bad thing to keep in there. with back to basics running around, and maybe even my suggestion of hidden guerillas, maybe the nonbasic hate and enchantments floating around just say side in naturalize please? something to look into, and I think I may start playing this deck, it just feels nasty.

looking at your list, a lot of fatness comes from nasty artifact creatures, you could run one or two maindeck artifact mutations, that would be pretty sick, throw 8 1/1's in their face after destroying a sundering titan. it could definetly be something to toy with.

I like the deck, it looks like it's coming along nicely. it does show some very good promise. and stifle even if it's one belong's maindeck.

yes, but to mull with powder you have to have it in your hand. thus, if you don't have powder in your hand, you've gotta take one less to mull for it, say you have it in your hand, that's like having 5 cards. it's only good if you are guaranteed to have it in your first opening hand and it's a bad opening hand. otherwise it's a dead card.

yes, but it thins out the deck of stuff that you probably need at one point or another. nonetheless, I think this whole argument is on the condition that you draw serum powder in a hand you choose to mulligan with, thus making it an even more poor card.

you can play with it, I probably won't.

@vegeta

wu said:


therefore I was trying to say, you can pitch moxen to tfk as well, there is no need to keep serum powder in the deck because "it pitches to TFK." and under trinisphere everything costs three to play, yes? so, where serum powder costs three to play and moxen cost zero, under trinisphere everything still costs three to play anyways. now, a mox can produce one colored mana and a powder can produce one colorless mana. I'd much rather have the colored mana over the colorless mana on the board. you either pitch the moxen or the powder or you cast them, correct?

and I was never under the assumption that we had both in hand at any time. I think you were the one to assume that I was talking about having them both in hand. and refresh my memory, what in this deck isn't broken aside from serum powder? and removing from game consequence is: you can't get anything you remove from the game back in this deck.

and yes, that fat kid av blows the mind.

moxen/crypt/lotus are all pitchable to TFK if you've got a trinisphere on the board. not only that, but you have to pay three to cast powder anyways, so there isn't a drawback to paying the three for any colored mox, or a two producing mana source. keeping a serum powder just to pitch for TFK is no reason to keep it at all. whereas, with a powder you are paying three for a single colorless mana. you might as well keep a mox and have a red or a blue.

my thoughts on this, you can mull all you want, ASSUMING YOU GET THE POWDER IN YOUR HAND. otherwise, it's a savagely dead topdeck card that I'd rather have brainstorm in place of.

now comes an issue when you rftg cards, what in this deck can you justafiably remove from the game? certainly not a welder, thirsts are pretty good I hear, while topdecking land when you don't need it sucks, lands can get you off to a pretty good start with workshops, ancient tombs, volcanic islands. triskelions are basically your only form of removal here, and sundering titans are normally the ones to bring home the win. what's that really leave to remove? uh... moxen are pretty good, you don't usually want to remove those from the game, and we always need a workshop to get us on our feet. can you really sacrafice any of this? seriously I think the weakest card in the deck is probably now serum powder or shivan reef, and shivan reef isn't that bad.

I don't know about serum powder.