Does anyone have any opinions on overmaster  http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=2729in doomsday since we have a red splash for ingot chewers already?

Just realized you can pull this off with Entomb + Unearth. This reduces mana cost and adds more business parts to the deck. It also makes draw sevens better since you are likely to hit an Entomb at some point in you first or second hand. All you really need to worry about is the Unearth.

I thought this would be the best place to ask this. I always considered after the printing of Griselbrand that Oath would be a better card than Tezzeret if thirst was unrestricted (don't want to discuss that), I just thought with rituals in oath, would infernal contract/cruel bargain be worth looking at to make a turbo oath style list.

I would love to play this in modern if someone got it working, but I see this being the next flash in legacy. I think it has vintage potential though, and I love winning on turn 1/0.


I think the reasoning for guttural response in the belcher shell over pact was that empty the warrens was a win condition. Pact makes a lot of sense here.




What actually attracted me to this strategy was the similarity to hermit druid. I have long been a fan of hermit druid and wrote a primer for the deck years ago ( http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39844.0 ).
If you liked hermit I really urge you to give this a try, you will get hands that don't win on the spot, -Mulligan those. Your safe to go down to five cards and win easily, below that you will probably only win with a hand of hermit druid + 2 mana sources. In terms of consistency Ichorid really needs a bazaar and a dredger to start out. the worst case scenario for this deck is a hermit and 2 mana sources, although a spy/informer and 3-4 mana works too. I put the consistency of this deck in a vacuum at about the same as Ichorid. With the trade off's being outside of a vacuum consistency isn't everything.    

This is faster than hermit and that's the main advantage. You are easily disrupted with this deck (hermit wasn't strong in this regard either), but the main advantage is that you can avoid flusterstorm/thoughtseize/trinisphere (the key early plays that gave hermit problems).
This deck does still need work, Leyline on anticipation is my main addition of tech (try pacting for hermit on the draw with it out). I would love to hear other insights on how this can be more competitive.

I urge you to goldfish the bottom list if your worried about consistency. Winning isn't a problem, winning through hate is. 

I haven't seen any discussion on a list using balustrade spy/under city informer in vintage yet outside of the spoiler thread. I think that there's a lot of potential here so I thought I would start this up.
 

The idea is to play one of these guys with no land in your deck, you mill your entire library and put 3-4 nacromoebas onto the battlefield. Then cast a Dread Return from your graveyard and win with one of several win conditions.
So far the best viable win conditions are,

Sutured Ghoul + Dragon Breath (two cards, most compact kill)
Laboratory Maniac + Angel of Glory's Rise + Azami, Lady of Scrolls (one more card but does not require attack step and is immune to removal)

Others that work but aren't as good are,

Kiki-jiki +karmic guide+ pestermite (requires attck step, three cards)
Reveilark+mogg fanatic+body double+carrion feeder (four cards, target a player)
The Mimeoplasm + Triskelion/murderous redcap+ sutured ghoul/lord of extinction (targets a player)
Flame-Kin Zealot+2x Bridge from below (requires attack step)

It is also desirable to have Cabal Therapy in your deck in case you draw a combo piece. Bridge From Below is important too in case you need to discard a combo piece and need to keep creatures in play to cast Dread Return.

So far the best shell proposed has been a 0 mana belcher style build that focuses on a turn zero win (although mana severance and playing controll is also an option), for reference here's Lochinvar81's (very old) 0 land Belcher list,

4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Empty the Warrens
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar
1x Tinker
1x Timetwister

4x Goblin Welder
4x Guttural Response
4x Street Wraith
4x Manamorphose

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Tinder Wall
3x Chrome Mox*
1x Channel
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Lion’s Eye Diamond
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Grim Monolith

Sideboard
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Tormod’s Crypt
4x Storm Entity
2x Pyroblast
1x Gaea’s Blessing

Taken from http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37138.0;wap2

The obvious evolution would be to remove the unneeded cards and put in the chaff and new cards, creating something like this,

4x undercity informer
4x ballistrade spy
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar
1x Tinker
1x Timetwister

4x narcoemoba
4x Guttural Response
1x dread return
1x bridge from below
1x cabal therapy
1x sutured ghoul
1x dragon breath
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x dark ritual
4x Tinder Wall
4x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Lion’s Eye Diamond
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
4 summoner's pact

If I was to play this however I would use Leyline of Anticipation in place of Guttural Reponse (It blanks everything but Force of Will even on the draw and helps against workshops). I would also use Hermit Druid in place of the draw 7's.

I would play something like this,

4x undercity informer
4x ballistrade spy
4 hermit druid
4x narcoemoba
4x leyline of anticipation
1x dread return
1x bridge from below
2x cabal therapy
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 angel of glory's rise
1 laboratory maniac
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x dark ritual
4x wild cantor
3x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
4 summoner's pact

That works but there's probably better things to do.

I'm using +2 bridge +1 flame-kin zealot, it's 3 cards but has less vulnerabilities than ghoul and I can imprint a bridge and still be effective (one bridge already in deck). I'm also toying around with tinker + blightsteel in the deck, this is great if I need an extra turn to connect with my zombies because blightsteel doesn't get milled (gives me an extra draw).

I will add that to the toolbox.

In my playing around with the card I've found it to be almost the same as vampiric 2-5. Against dredge and workshops it's stellar, against creature decks it holds it's own. I know I can't build a deck that has favourable matches against everyone one so I'm happy to use this in a deck that looses to control and wins to everything else. The only strategy this that this card plays poorly to is counter magic. If you can live with that then this compromise is really worth it.

EDIT;

For reference heres my list

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Mox Opal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Necropotence
1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Oath of Druids
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire

Right now I think Enlightened Tutor is really good in combo.

Situation one,
You have a hand with a Dark Ritual and an Enlightened Tutor.

Cast Tutor for Necropotence, cast Necropotence with the Ritual.

Situation 2
You have a hand with a Necropotence/Gifts/Bargain/Tinker and an Enlightened Tutor.
Cast Tutor for Black Lotus, Cast your Threat.

What's crazy is that enlightened tutor is both halves of the combo. It also works with key-vault, but Necropotence is easier since dark ritual isn't dead without Necropotence.

The other option is to build a toolbox with Rest in Peace, Nihil Spellbomb, Sensei's Divining Top, Engineered Explosives, and Serenity. These would be in the sideboard and come in depending on the match. This is added versatility, Enlightened tutor improves you functionality as a combo deck and improves your games post board by giving you a toolbox approach.

Lastly I include a single Oath of Druids in every deck with Enlightened Tutor. This functions much the same way as Hurkyl's Recall in Merchant Scroll decks. For two mana I can Oath out my Tinker target and that will usually be enough to give me a chance against Workshops and Aggro.

Let me know how you see this.

Wild cantor is great as you can get it with pact to smooth out mana. If you have Wild Cantors in the deck you could use Angel of Glory's Rise to recur them and then win with Past in Flames -> Tendrils

I don't see why people are so hung up on the control match. This deck beats pretty much everything else easily, If this was the MTGTheSource forums the sky would have fallen and banning would be incoming. For the deck to require significant thought against one archetype is a very good thing.

I had a hand like that and lost on the draw to workshop-> trinisphere 

 I just moved to the east end of Toronto (Canada, -north of new york) and the beach is literally at my doorstep. Hopefully this gets downgraded a bit soon.

What planeswalker would you use with orchard?

Yeah it's weird my original goal was to make an ad nauseam list that was fast enough to beat dredge (easy) and meta'd against work shops to the point that that was an easy match. I don't think that's possible now and I've abandoned the project. The weird thing is that oath can be very fast these days if you have burning wish and rituals because of the ability to play with timetiwster and mind's desire in the sideboard. I think I would have much better luck with a burning oath deck if I wanted to win in the first two turns against Ichorid and workshops than ad nauseam.

Sandwich punch question (now that I'm in) If I order a club sand which that comes cut in halves or quarters how does that work if I don't put down the piece I'm on.

I've always liked tezz, agent of bolas in decks with orchard. I feel stupid playing a jace, brainstorming and then having it die a turn or two later. Paying four mana for a brainstom isn't on the power level of vintage. Paying 4 mana for 2-3 5/5's is, especially if they have haste (I would say this is on par to an early EtW for enough to win but not a high number, and doesn't need storm). I agree that in decks like long he is a monster because you can ritual him out on turn one from a mox + land + ritual and have a 5/5 attacking on turn two and be building up card advantage and more attackers from there.
I really wish he had some defensive ability like jace's bounce though.

Just wanted to update where I'm at with this,

4 Forbidden Orchard
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Burning Wish
3 Ad Nauseam
1 Necropotence
4 Dark Ritual
2 chain of vapor
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 mox emerald
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Duress
3 thoughtseize
4 Chrome Mox
4 oath of druids
1 griselbrand

Average CMC of 1.15 which is 0.05 higher than my original list at the top of the first page(which didn't have a maindeck tendrils). I've only died to CMC damage involving griselbrand once in about 80 goldfishes.

I agree completely. Right now I'm trying to make this worth doing; if it costs two mana to win then that could be the mana I cast oath with, -not a stretch to get, three is slightly pushing it. I'm probably just going to stick the oaths in the sideboard, but this is so far a helpful thought exercise.

If you look at it from a CMC point ,
   (memory's journey) +  (Past in flames) +   (Deep anal) = . That's a higher CMC than a griselbrand and 2 pacts or cost artifacts. So I really have to use a probe if I want this to be any better than a main deck griselbrand, even then I'm not saving much. I think I should be asking myself is what's the cheapest oath target to put in main deck that outclasses workshops.

Slight improvement to the PiF LED Lotus pile,

1) mill deck
2) Flashback memory's journey, put petal, lotus, LED in deck on upkeep.
3) draw a card on draw step
4) play mana artifact and break it for blue, flash back deep analysis drawing other two mana artifacts, break them for black and red
5) play Past in Flames
6) play storm chaff (IE rituals, duress, therapies)
7) win

It costs    but could costs just if you draw LED or lotus as the first mana artifact on step three.

Your right I just checked. Why not though? It's a a pre Masques rare that hasn't been reprinted. Shouldn't it be on the reserve list?

Just while were here, scroll rack is in commander arsenal, is that not on the reserved list? I thought it was which is weird, because if it is on the reserve list, could see like a vintage masters edition?
Edit: also an oversized sliver queen in arsenal which is on the reserved list.

The deck has balance and shattering spree to deal with those effects, in game two and three oath creatures are brought in to reinforce the oath plan.
I just realized something cool, I can keep Yawgmoth's will in the main deck, flash it back with past in flames, replay all my artifacts, then wish for tendrils. The question becomes what do I want main deck, tendrils or will? I think tendrils is the better call but will is so much cooler.

That's even better, I don't need Yawgmoth's will maindeck so it frees up a slot.
I looked at the oath into ingot chewer plan a while back, the problem I had was that I had to either let them keep playing creatures just so I could keep oathing, or I would end up with them oathing of my oath, and they would get better things than ingot chewers and one or two real creatures.

Oath would change for game 2/3 into griselbrand and/or maybe blightsteel if I expect sphere effects and graveyard hate. The idea is to get some easy activations from creature based decks game one, and increase threat density against the rest of the field. The other good thing is it takes 4 cards out of the sideboard (4 oaths) so there's room for more metaing.

I like the memory's journey idea, my only issue with it is the deep analysis, I dislike allocating two slots to the oath plan and one that's contingent to being in my graveyard when I win. I would also end up dropping memory jar or something as important from my list to play it and I don't want to do that. The main advantage I see of deep analysis is that reduces the cost to win by one mana. I'll test it but I'm not certain it necessitates the cut.

Hey I just had a dumb (probably) thought.
The main downside to Ad Nauseam (over something like long) with Burning wish is no main deck oath. What about using Eternal witness as an oath target so oath can fit main deck. You would be recurring Yawgmoth's will or a tutor for will, then winning with a full graveyard? The cute thing is I can even flash back a cabal therapy using the witness for protection.

For what it's worth I have a rebuild in my sideboard, I just want something on par with rebuild that's a wish target. Shattering spree is great, but it's not a rebuild or hurkyl's, I see this as something similar.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29449887/Modern_Masters?pg=last
Looks like wizards is reprinting a lot of modern legal cards, Tarmogoyf is confirmed. I see a lot of good implications for vintage in this with just goyf alone. If confidant, crucible, or other staples that are multi format get reprinted this would be a boon for the format.
What do you think?


Edit: details,

limited-run, draftable reprint set that features exclusively Modern-playables.

229 card set, 53 rares, 15 mythics. Comes in 24-pack booster boxes, MSRP $6.99/pack. Each pack comes with a foil, no basic lands. Goyf is confirmed at Mythic.