@Madmanmike: Imo between Monoliths, Vault, Moxen, Sol Ring, Crypt,Shops you should be able to drop your welder pretty much every turn one. The waste effects work pretty good with the aggro plan of the deck.
To play Spine of Ish Ash i d like to have another effect to sac it.

Leyline of sancity seems interesting and yet i haven't found lots of good spots for Helm+ LotV to board in

This is my actual lists, which is a hybrid of mud and comboshop

Lands
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    4  Ancient Tomb
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine

// Creatures
    4  Metalworker
    4  Kuldotha Forgemaster
    1  Sundering Titan
    4  Lodestone Golem
    1  Myr Battlesphere
    1 [ARC] Duplicant
    1  Karn, Silver Golem
    1  Steel Hellkite

// Spells
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
    1 [BIN] Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Time Vault
    4  Staff of Domination
    4 [DDE] Voltaic Key
    3  Grim Monolith
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Memory Jar
    2  Umbral Mantle
    1  Trinisphere
    4  Thorn of Amethyst

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Steel Hellkite
SB: 2  Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 4  Helm of Obedience
SB: 2  Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1  Triskelion
SB: 2  Relic of Progenitus

I put Leyline+Helm to the side, because with the 4 Serums i had too many bad topdecks and without Helm we are less vulnerable to Rod
Having 12 new slots gave me lot of opportunity. Starting with LOdestone seems good, adding some other other tutorable good dudes seems ok, too.
I tried to keep casting costs low enough so i could play them without Forgemaster. By adding more dudes Umral Mantle and Key gets a bit better, too.
Adding thorns with all those dudes and then wastes seemed quite natural then.

I am not sure about the Battlesphere and Duplicant.

Sry Shax that i made you to wirte this up just becasue i wasn't exact about my point.
I am aware of everything we can do with mantle....

But it's really good only with metalworker and if we have a metalworker which is still able to produce mana, mantle seems more like a win more.
We will have dropped our whole hand, so mantle won't have that much of an effect.
But if we have mantle without worker we sit on a pretty much dead card.
I try sensei div. top right now. We just have 4 shuffle effect what is pretty bad, but it combos with Volt Key and isn't that on his own.

There prob is sth. better, but effects to improve welder don't seem too get to me

How important is Mantle or Elixir in this deck? Seems to me like the worst cards in the deck.
Perhaps we could atleast play 2 other cards for it.

Everyone is talking about how Bob works under an remora and that both want our opponent to do nothing.
Sometimes you just draw either either Bob or remora other times one of the parts gets countered. Bob and Remora are our draw cards and engines. There is nothing wrong about it that both work quite good together.

If we splash green, we could perhaps atleast iclude 1 Natures claim main?

I'd like a Tendrills will, too.

Imo Jace and Tendrils dont work that good together.

I can`t see Basilisk Corollar becoming a strong card. It has to fight with Jittie and Jittie is just soo much better. Imo

@Stormimagus: I think your list is pretty interesting and beeing able to beat dredge game 1 (even if they go first) is really great.
How often will we see Ensnaring Bridge? Even if we expect to see it sometimes, a build with 4 Stax which are better in lots of matchups, instead of 4 Leyline+ 4 Helms, will handle the problem.

What i fear more like Bridges are opposing Stax decks including red. Opposing welders really suck, Leylines are helping there aswell, but unfortunately only on 1 Side.

How aggressively are you mulliganing in game 1 into Leyline? If you dont do that aggressively you will end up with 8 dead cards too often.

Is Leyline+1 Helm perhaps a better idea for a BR or 5c Stax build?
Perhaps we should leave the 12 pieces of combo in the side? Imo this clocks the side up too much

I have 3 questions:
1) If we think about including Diabolic Edict somewhere in our list, why not choose Chainer`s Edict over it. With every card we seek for card advantage, Chainer`s would offer this. Of course it`s sorcery speed, but with Mind Twist we hadn`t any problems either.

2) Why are we so sold about playing our counter 4+4? We could aswell play 4+2+2 or some other configuration. By doing so we could have our opponents guessing if the game moves on. If he`s guessing he will make more mistakes...

3) We play approx. 10 shuffle effects. And noone thought ob Sensei Div Top yet. This could be a good 1 of if we find some space

Hey guys,
i am from Germany and as most of you know the European Vintage scene isn`t that good and small, too.
I am interested in testing vs good players.
So i wanted to ask if there are some MWS tournaments with good players or a testing group i could join.
Perhpas ther`s some interest and we can get some action going

Thx alot

Here`s my actual List. I am not sure about the 2 Sculpting Steal. I played and additional Karn and Trisk, possible in these spots are some draws like Grafted Skullclamp, or some more mana sources.

I took a more Stax like approach to the deck. Karn was an auto include and Trisk is good vs Fish, Welder, Bob....

Mana: 25
4 Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Mox
1 Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Dudes: 11
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Karn
3 Trike
2 Sculpting Steel

Lock: 24
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds



Sideboard:
4 Tormods Crypt
3 Razorman
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Jester's Cap
1 Triskelion

What do you think about it?

I think it`s funny that the first posters just punched OP for his statements. OP gave reasons for every choice he made and playtested his deck. He put a lot of effort into this article. Even if not everything was right, atleast he got a lot of you guys thinking about this deck again.

So thank you for posting this and putting lots of effort into this "thing"

Imo Lodestone Golems impact on the Metagame will be too big, atleast in the next months, that any Storm combo deck will show up with great succes.  As you stated 9 Sphere is hard for this deck and now pretty much every Stax deck will play 9 Sphere effects.
It`s right that LOdestone Golem is weaker vs you then the normal Spheres, but then he just needs to swing into you once to make your key spell soo much weaker.

By the way i like Bob in this deck, but i really would like to have sth better than Thoughtseize or Pact

At first my list.

Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Savannah
    4  Windswept Heath
    2  Wooded Foothills
    1  Forest
    1  Plains
    1  Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
    4  Gaddock Teeg
    4  Tarmogoyf
    4  Xantid Swarm
    4 Qasali Pridemage
    4  Aven Mindcensor
    4  Glowrider
    3  Ethersworn Canonist
    4  Elvish Spirit Guide
    2  Ohran Viper

// Spells
    4  Null Rod
    2  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Emerald



Xantid was amazing for me. The cards i am really not sure about: Canonist and Glowrider and my tinker solutions Swords and  Viper.

Glowrider seems cool for the mana denial plan, but could be too slow and canonist are only really good vs combo, but atleast both can beatdown.
I am not sure what combination of swords and viper i should play main and in the board.

Let`s start with my list

Lands
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Wasteland
    5  Mountain
    4  Mishra's Workshop

// Creatures
    4  Goblin Welder
    4  Metalworker
    4  Gorilla Shaman (2)
    4  Solemn Simulacrum
    1  Sundering Titan
    1  Triskelavus
    1  Duplicant

// Spells
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Lotus Petal
    3  Sensei's Divining Top
    4  Sword of Fire and Ice
    4  Sphere of Resistance
    4  Thorn of Amethyst
    1  Trinisphere
    1  Staff of Domination
    1  Memory Jar

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4  Razormane Masticore
SB: 1  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3  Viashino Heretic
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast

I tried to get a real draw and search engine into my build. Therefore i try to abuse the effects of welder, Top and Solemn.
After that i built a normal mana denial plan around it, perhaps i need to squeeze 2 crucibles in it, but testing will show this.

What i am not too sure about is, are my silver bullets: Titan, Duplicant, Triskelavus and Staff.

What you think about this pile

How did Memory Jar work for you guys? I have the feeling that i really like sth else in mgrave, which matters right now and not sth i have to draw to via Jar.

Di dyou ever entomb a Jar?

I currently play this build. I just Playtest one MWS. At firstsome card choices:
Platz hasn`t done anything for me yet and was always boarded out (Storm combo plays bounce and i never played Ichorid which is the only deck it shines)
Nullstone Gargoyle can be good, but probabyl theres always a better card available, not sure about him yet.
I am not sure about the whole draw engine but Bazzar, which is amazing

Lands
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  City of Brass
    4  Gemstone Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    1 [ARE] Karn, Silver Golem
    1  Nullstone Gargoyle
    2  Master Transmuter
    2  Sharuum the Hegemon
    3  Sundering Titan
    1  Triskelavus
    1  Platinum Angel
    4  Goblin Welder

// Spells
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Black Lotus
    2  Intuition
    2  Careful Study
    2  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Mox Sapphire
    4  Force of Will
    2  Possessed Portal
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    1  Tinker
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Thirst for Knowledge
    1  Ancient Grudge
    4  Animate Dead

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Echoing Truth
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [DDC] Duress
SB: 1  Duplicant
SB: 1  Null Rod
SB: 1  Tormod's Crypt

This build and probably most others have huge problems with stax. I stand 0:6 vs it. Null Rod with Wastes is also a real pain, but far better than stax.

What Sideboard slots or maindeck hate can we put in vs stax?

If razorman would cost 4 i would love it, becasue you could search it with Tez.

I am searching for some other good answer, which i can search with Tez.

But Razorman is quite strong, but i think there should be a better card around, but i haven`t found it yet.
Ofcourse i am just speaking for Tez without a 3rd colour

Hi,
i think this deck has a hard matchup vs storm combo and other combo decks aswell, becasue it runs so few disruption and the side isn`t designed good vs it, aswell.

What are your thoughts on thisd?

Sry for my super stupid question, but what is your combo win condition without pyrite spellbomb? It can`t just be draw cards with aether spellbomb, clean the board with explosives and then swing over several turns.

Should there be a lone empty the warrens in it or is there some secret tech i don´t get?

I am surprised, that the synergz between Welder and Bazaar wasn`t reallz mentioned yet. It`s one of the finest things if you play Bazaar.
Ensnaring Bridge is for me the best aggro hoser atm.

someone mentioned it before, why aren`t we adding some Staffs o D if we are playing worker? I see it`s not a lock effect, but it`s a draw and a i win card, which can be really helpfull vs combo.

The only reason for me to play mud over R Stax is that Metalworker> Flux

With the relevant turn getting earlier and earlier, i would say turn 2 and 3 are often game deciding.
I don`t like that we will often have to wait till turn 3 to draw 2 cards, because we had an orchard in hand and dropped that before or even missed our 2nd island drops for some rounds.

What are you guys doing vs all these Gush Combo decks? I really think that i can win vs every deck, ok chances aren`t that good vs some, but most times theres really a way to solve the problems. I especially found it hard vs Control Combo variants, who play Mana Drain on their own. I am thinking about Arcane Denial atm, because it`s hard to remove and can kill lots of Combo decks.
My only problem is, that my sideboard slots are pretty short atm and it`s hard to cut some of them. Another option would be Mage on Gush, but they can play around that very well.

I tried to play a more control orientated Oath build(, but i got problems with my draw engine).
I am really interested in the interaction of Gush and the Orchards.
First we run fewer Islands than GAT or Storm Gush decks.
Second we will be 1-2 rounds slower quite often, because we have just 1 Islands in our starting 10 cards, which will kill us quite often in todays fast meta.

I really have not tested this build yet, but i played GAT and Oath before aswell as a Gush Storm Deck.

I lately started testing Bomberman, at first UWB, than UW and now UWR and i really like the ETW, but right now i am not sure if 2 of them is the right number.

The Tinker debate is very interesting and i think i will cut the Tinker+ ???, because DSC needs 2 rounds to win, which is often times too slow vs the modern aggro decks or most combos. Platz is possible, but is only really helpful vs Flash.
I even tried memory Jar, for the combo win, but this card is just bad ( Is hardcast able)

At times, where everyone runs Graveyard hate in the side and some decks even main wouldn´t there be better choices than Bomberman. Of course there are.
But my point is, how do we play against decks with extiprtae, Leyline or Crypt? we try to win our game with Lotus/Spellbomb, but both will hit the grave before we can go off.
I tired to squeeze some Jotun Grunts in...

My current List looks like that:

Creatures
  4 Goblin Lackey
  1 skirk Prospector
  4 Goblin Piledriver
  4 Goblin Warchief
  3 Goblin Matron
  3 Goblin Ringleader
  4 Earwig Squad
  2 Gempalm Incinerator
  1 Siege gang
  1 Goblin Sharpshooter
Spells
  1 Mox Ruby
  1 Mox Jet
  1 mana Crypt
  4 Thoughtseize
  1 Lotus petal
  1 Black Lotus
  4 Thorn of Amethyst
 

Lands
  3 Bloodstained Mire
  2 Wooded Foothills
 4 Badlands
 4 wastelands
4 Mountain
1 Strip
2 Simian Spirit Guide

For me this deck doesn´t work, i don´t know why. I played FCG for 3 years and was quite succesfull with them.
I think one of my problems is the low count of 1-drop-Goblins. Perhaps i should add some Vandals. Another problem is, that i don´t want to waste my second turn to drop a Thorn of amethyst. Furthermore i am not sure about the Wastelands, i am screwed myself quite often.
Atm i am very unhappy with the build.

Could you give me some improvemt tipps, plz.

 

I wanted to build a more control orientated Oath build. ( I played an UB control before with a transformal Oath side, because i had really no chance vs aggro, but beating control and Combo very easy)

Oath and friends
4oath of druids
4 forbidden orchard
2 tidespout tyrant
1 krosan reclamation

Mana
5 fetch
3 underground sea
3 tropical island
2 island
5 mox
1 black lotus
1 Lotus peta

Draw
2 Deep analysis
4 brainstorm
1Impuls

answers

1 brain freeze

control
4 force of will
4 mana drain
3 duress

Broken
2 Extirpate
1 yawgmoth’s will
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 Gifts Ungiven

tutors
1 demonic tutor
1 vamp tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 Regrowth

I am not sure about this List, i have the feeling i play not enough draw, but perhaps we can discuss this List a bit.
Thx

Why do you run Misdirection over Drain? What`s the reason for leaving mystical Tutor out, or am i just overlooking it?
I would call the draw engine passive, because we rely on over opponent to draw cards. On the other side Gush/Thirst and so on are active draws.
I don`t see right now, why we try to abuse another draw engine then Merchant/Anc/Gush/Fastbond? It´s the best draw engine available since a very long time.
I really fell in love with this deck, but it`s not that hard to play around remora.
I am excited to read your next tourney report.

Let´s create a very common scenario:
Turn 1: drop Remora plus offc. Mox
Turn 2: Pay 1 drop another land  /2 Mana open
Turn 3: Pay 2 drop again/2 Mana open

Turn 4: Pay 3 / 1 mana open
or sac remora

I think after this it´s too complex to go on.

But if you don´t hit a second acceleration in the second turn you can`t cast the Meditate under it.
And we can`t cast Meditate in one turn and drop a thread, because we are still too short on mana. This could come on turn 5 or 6 and even then we can just drop a useless 5/5 or 4/4 or a slaver and now we are open to action.
Ok now i have pretty often drain+ 2 Pitch counter in hand, but drain is outtapped pretty useless.

If we have try to meditate in their endstep, for me the normal play, we have to sac remora and give them an open Mainphase.

But there comes problem Nr. 2 to show up. I won`t have a thread in hand in most cases, which would be worth saccing the remora!

I tested this deck on Mws and i tried a build with a black spash at first for VAMP/DEM/WILL and hoped that i can take some games vs aggro down with combo Will mode, but most aggro decks run good disruption so this didn`t work that good.
I tried Intruder Alarm in the side vs aggro, but it didn´t work either.

Now i cahnged to the standard green build here.
I think of myself that i am playing control quite good. But this deck has lot of weaknesses:
1. Remora is outplayed by any creature based deck, ok this is not new. it`s important to drop in in the first 2 round, because otherwise the opponent is able to build his manabase with moxen before you can draw.

2. This deck runs 3 Titan +1 Platz+2 Show and Tell + Tinker + Platz/Slaver. These are 8 cards and you need 2 of them in your hand to play them. I end very often with show and tell in hand but no thread or the other way round.
In conlusion the problem is we don´t get a thread out and so we`ll give a lot of time to our opponent. They decide when the game starts!

3. We want to drain into Titan: We can`t do that early, because we are tapped out for remora, so the earliest turn to do that is turn 4 and even then we need an opponent who allows us to do that.


I very often have to let an early critter resolve and then get beaten down by it, because he doesn´t feed my remora and i can´t cast a meditate under the remora because i lack mana.

perhaps i just ran unlucky till now, but to me this decks looks a lot stronger than it is.

I hope you can get my thought although my englsih isn´t that good.