Did you miss a number there, somewhere?

Heh.

Please don't remind me.  I almost cried.

You said you expected to see a lot of fish/shops, but you didn't face any.  How was your build in testing against them?  Do you think your dredge hate was too light, or did your opponent just do well?

I think Jace is a dude.

Grats on T8ing.

And gives your opponent a turn to do whatever they'd like, unlike Iona and Terastadon, which is pretty much the discussion, and hardly worth diminishing with words like silly, since those decks have proven themselves, and this card isn't out yet. 

This would be an important factor in half of my little brother's deck ideas . . .

Not being an artifact makes it not as good, though. 

I've always enjoyed resolving a Disk against a Stax deck.  I'm not sure I'd ever want to be casting it in a deck where every other non-land card is an artifact that's going to die when the Disk is set off.

Powder Keg is pretty good, and works well against oath sometimes.  I haven't tested such an aggro mud deck, however.

We're all a little dumb now and then.

I DID think it was pactable, when I posted that, which would have made it even more technically (as in, not that important an improvement, but we're just talking about new cards here) better. 

As is . . . who knows.  It opens up some space on defensive cards, by having the win condition uncounterable.  Something better than this would have to be printed to make me want to play vintage elves (well . . . seriously want to.  I always WANT to!) 

Might have interesting applications in other formats, but I haven't really tested anything in those for a while.

Not that elves is a top tier deck, but this guy technically makes it better!

You haven't listed a casting cost, if it has been spoiled.  I'm assuming it doesn't really matter too much, but it would be interesting to know!

Is that supposed to be another sphinxy tinker target?

In regards to two deeds:  I think the idea behind this deck is that if that's right for your meta, that's what you play!  If in testing against the decks you expect to face, the extra deed improves your matchups, then definitely go for it!  (not that this isn't true for any deck, but it seems that The Deck is very sensitive to fine tuning.)

I imagine it depends a lot on your meta, but wasteland for a blue is pretty awesome against some decks.  I have never been comfortable testing without it.  More artifact/enchantment hate might be better against a ton of oaths and shops.

I was talking about this card with my brother last night, and I said that I would be less surprised to see this card show up more in the Tezz mirror than in fish decks.

I guess time and testing will tell if it's any good!

(I'd love to play merfolk in vintage!)

While taking their vault/key is a possible line of play, I think that what people are more excited about is just removing the tinker target and vault, which is probably good-game if it happens.

Well what are the other people like?  Are they in your boat, less powered than you, or more powered than you?

You can obviously build tezz and just substitute some seats/ islands for moxes and just be slower.

Oath is still really powerful, even without moxes.

Chrome mox is probably a bad idea no matter what you do. 

If everyone else is sporting full power, or something (unlikely, it kinda sounds like, from what you said) then definitely go the null rod route.  BUG fish rocks. 

That deck doesn't look any more strained for mana than the other ones that play wastelands.  It seems like they'd help with shops and dredge.  I guess their power is diminished if you aren't going to run any other mana disruption, though.   How do you feel about that so far?  (I personally love wastes/rods/stifles and it feels unnatural not to have them around when I play!)

This IS the appropriate thread for 'have you tested vault/key?' (I'm only being a little snarky, but it DOES seem on par with recurring time walk and tutors with a grunt)

Is 'dig' really the right word?  This card seems to just dump the dirt back in the hole after it's done.

So what has further testing shown this to be good in, meadbert?  It seems like it would be pretty good with a fetch land, which would  let you drop it on the first turn, then take the best card and shuffle away the rest on the next.  it seems like it would fit best in something like the deck, or landstill, but those are decks that have a hard time adding things to their mana bases.  I can't see replacing Top in Tezz, but that's probably because I really like the lists that have a couple repeals.

I like the card!

The problem, soapbox, is that you took a deck that has put up some results, then proceeded to change it, choosing some cards that have proven themselves to others as less than optimal.  You then argued that the deck as an archetype is less than optimal.

This got you two varieties of responses, which are not unpredictable:  Some people said "well duh, your list isn't very good" and left it at that.  Some others went further to talk about why your list does not seem optimal, and how they perceived this being connected to your understanding (or lack) of this deck.

I think that if your argument was structured something like "Here are my testing results of several 'the deck' lists that have placed well against the decks in my meta." (what/where IS your meta?) "The deck didn't perform as well as I feel it could, so I made some card changes, and here is my reasoning behind all of them.  Here is my new testing data, that posted better results, but still not strong enough for me to be able to take this deck to my local meta,"  then you would only have the second variety of replies. 

Ironically, given the nature of your original post, some of the responses and conversations have been quite good.  I haven't tested the deck enough to say anything that hasn't been said, but it's a very exciting one and I am glad to see some strong opinions about it.

Teferi's Isle was always one of my favorite lands!  Now it got better.  Technically. 

There a are a bunch of lands that make extra mana, which come into play tapped to offset that extra mana.  Sadly, I think vintage is all set on fast mana.

The answer to the the smokestack question, is (you are right) completely dependent on game state.   Some basic things:

-Look for how it's interacting with your other cards.  Tanglewires, crucibles, welders, and sphere effects all enhance the asymmetry of a smokestacks.

-Make sure you're in a good position to benefit from it.  Ramping it up to clear the board when you're 'behind' might not be the best play if they end up in an even stronger position after the dust clears.

-Look out for tricks (stifle, instant speed artifact kill, etc,) that can mess up a plan.  If you're playing fish, it might be best not to ramp it up, for example.

As far as having multiples out, unless your opponent is threatening to put them in your graveyard with a possible deed. rank and ruin, or something similar, playing a second one probably won't hurt you(as long as there isn't something better to be done with the mana!). At that point, you're probably on your way to winning the game, though.

I don't see Vampiric tutor on your list.  It seems like it would be a good inclusion, since it's probably better than mystical in this case.

I didn't mean to imply Rods would be replaced in the deck, just that we went on to test post-board games, and I was experimenting with sideboard choices.

Perhaps the years of any kind of aggro deck being a bye for U/R landstill lulled me into complacency.

That is indeed good to know, and would undoubtedly have saved several losses!

I think that hands made bad by the CIPT nature of Conclave will not be improved by replacing that card with one of colorless mana sources 11-13.  Conclave hasn't been a problem for me.

So I tested this version yesterday and today against BUG fish for about two dozen games.  I think there was one game where he ever drew a card of confidant when it mattered, so I am not worried about dealing with them.  Tarmogoyf, on the other hand, was a huge problem, and the main contributor to my 60-70 percent loss ratio.

I ended up testing with the nullrods main for a bit, but we both had them so we had some dead draws.  I then replaced them with Lightning Bolts, as this was one of my old favorites (old as in before tarmogoyf!) which didn't seem to help out much, and my opponent probably got a lot more mileage out of the Duresses and Oxidizes he brought in.  I will have to test with more bounce.  Has that been strong enough to answer Goyfs, for others?  (I did often find myself top-decking the Force or Drain a turn or two after the green guy landed.)

I didn't test bringing in the Red Elemental Blasts yet, and I think that will help with my second big issue-- Stifle on Standstill.   That play hurt me a few times.

Spell Snare would obviously be an all star in this matchup, but-- as people have noted-- it's not as good in many others, so probably not worth slots.

Pyroclasm, while one of my favorite cards, seems quite bad to side in here.  Against noble fish, I'd want it more, though.  Is that what people have found as well?

Well, those are my thoughts/ findings!

Viper is probably unsupportable in this sort of deck.

Goyf generally works in any deck.  Landstill get's the benefit of always wanting enchantments in the graveyard too, while hating on every other kind of card the opponent can play.

Worth testing, I bet.

In case I was being vague, and you were directing that at me, Killane:

I liked your proposal!

I paid 150 for my ruby when I was 15, my dad got my lotus for 300 for my 18th birthday.  I could certainly sell them for more than that now.  I don't think anyone is arguing that we can send our kids to college if we buy lots of power now, but I think vintage cards hold their as well as, and perhaps more than the majority of the play sets of cards required to build multiple decks in, say, type-2.   

It's probably something people DO need attention drawn to, but maybe not people on these boards so much.  I know my local store went from having to convince type one players to try type 2, to having no one come to type 1, and two dozen plus show up for FNM.   It makes me a sad panda.