We have pondered over this in other threads. you might want to go to the stone-cold humans thread to see various suggestions. I´ve previously used eidolon of rhetoric, since it stops artifacts from being cast, as well as tabernacle at pendrell vale in concoction with knight of the reliquary and land destruction.

Although I´ve used both against menotor, I don´t have enough experience to tell you if they are your actual best options. Other people have surely tested enough though.

As a side note, I´ve tested the above list a bit. First few conclusions is that Knight of the reliquary is too slow (not a bomb, I guess) and that ESGs are just inferior to moxen in most circumstances: The most important use of accel in this deck is to be able to play consecutive two-drops on turns one and two. Moxen do that as effectively as ESGs on turn one if I land a stony silence and if I don´t, their mostly upside. I´m also testing Meddling mage off 4 caverns (and tundras) in the main, as it should be very strong against storm and not useless against shops.

Thanks for the clarification. It makes perfect sense, even before the restriction of chalice, since dredge has such a good game one against the field and can afford having a few bricks against an archetype or two. I dont play dredge and I guess I never saw it and thought about it before.

For me, the most eye-catching feature in the dredge list was the play set of mental missteps. Tsoatt has cut a bit into the engine and plays only FKZ as a pure dread return target to make room for misstep in the main. Is this common these days, to save sideboard space and improve the match-up against storm, or is it breaking new ground?

Thanks for the feedback Xouman,

The revokers are there. I´ve usually played less tahn four in these kinds of decks, but if the assumption is that the metagame is stretched out between storm and shops, revoker is one of the few cards that are good against both, even though the power-level of the card is not astronomical.
You might be right about mindcensor. I think it is better than arbiter (non-symmetrical for one, but both flying and flash are relevant abilities). Am I wrong? Is arbiter the better choice because of manacost? And more importantly: How many should I run of these creatures total? If I didn´t play ghost quarter, there would probably 0 in the maindeck as opposed to 6.
Chalice 1 is such a powerful play against so many decks that I believe that alone more than justifies running the allowed copy. Chalice isn´t the reason for cutting moxen; Stony silence and the ease of splashing a colour with the spirit guides are.
Stoneforge and equipment are good against important decks, but they do nothing against storm, belcher and oath. I think that comes close to disqualifying them from the maindeck at the moment. There is the tabernacle for tokens, and tabernacle could be a maindeck consideration. I could also run eidolon of rhetoric, which covers both pyromancer and mentor reasonably well. That is probably a sideboard card though. I wouldn´t side stoneforge and eidolon in against the same decks. Ghostly prison is interesting, but as you suggest, mentor will overpower it if it is allowed to play spells freely.
Noble hierarch is interesting. It may be more powerful than the spirit guides. The basic notion behind spirit guides is that most of the powerful cards available to me cost 1W and playing one the first turn is very important, since a combo player will need two counters to be able to untap and win turn three as opposed to one. A slower but more robust development will often be superior though.
Mental missteps may very well come in. They could easily replace swords to plowshares, for instance. Misstep is so bad against shops though.
And dryad militant is probably better now than ever. I´ll find room for it, since it easens the curve at any point in the game and is always relevant to a certain degree. Against creature decks, it attacks and blocks. The first inclination would be to shave a few arbiters/mindcensors and replace them with militants. I´m still not sure on which of those two to cut though, and how many: arbiter or mindcensor?

Hi guys,

I´ve been trying to figure out how to build a hatebear deck with as good matchups against storm and shops as possible, working under the assumption that those are the two dominating decks in the metagame and that they will become gradually stronger until something happens to significantly weaken storm. The first thing I did was to set up four lists; cards that are good against storm, cards that are good against shops, cards that are good against both and otherwise playable cards that aren´t good against neither. Of course these lists are incomplete. I would appreciate feedback to flesh them out:

Storm:
Thalia
Ethersworn Canonist and to a lesser extent Eidolon of Rhetoric (too hard to play on turn one)
Aegis of the Gods
Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor
Rest in Peace
Spirit of the Labyrinth (which has application against shops, due to its 3 point of power)
Mental misstep
Chalice of the void
Glowrider and Vryn Wingmare
Dryad militant
Gaddock Teeg

Shops:
Kataki (which is too easy for storm to play around, unless also pressured by a sphere effect)
Knight of the Reliquary (arguably too expensive, but very good once in play)
Mayor of Avabruck
Ghost quarter
Magus of the moon
Swords to plowshares
Stoneforge Mystic and assorted equipment
Dark confidant
Gaea´s Cradle
Basic lands

Storm and shops:
Stony Silence (which is only good against ravager versions of shops)
Wasteland/Strip
Deathrite shaman
Phyrexian revoker (not an all-star, but having decent application against both)
Leonin relic-warder
Qasali Pridemage (arguably weak against both decks, but not unplayable)
Pithing needle (Weak, since it doesn´t present a clock while the effect isn´t fully worth a card)

Neither storm nor shops:
Containment priest (weakens forgemaster, which is not good enough imo)
Grand abolisher
Karakas
Maze of ith
Tabernacle at pendrell vale (which has corner-case application against both decks)
Cavern of souls (Becomes better if TPS becomes a thing)
Mother of runes (at an all time low at the moment)
Grafdigger´s cage (stops will, but is so much weaker than rest in peace against storm that I believe it belongs here)
Abrupt decay (Which is weaker against shops than the artifact-removing creatures and has only marginal applications against storm)

One of the key takeaways here was that ghost quarter is quite interesting, since it is already turned on against shops and the creatures that naturally back it up are good against storm. This leads me to believe that a hatebears deck designed to beat both decks should accomodate for ghost quarter. That again points toward a design with light mana requirements; White Trash as opposed to a multicoloured human-based deck. The fact that Cavern of souls isn´t as good as it was before chalice was restricted enforces this idea. So the decklist I´m currently one isn´t innovative in any way, but I think it might have merit for being relatively clean. Note that it has a green splash mostly because elvish spirit guide is a good accelerator in a deck that aims to play stony silence as early as possible. This could easily become a red splash:

4 Artifacts:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Chalice of the void (It still hurts my feelings that they had to take these away from us)

28 Creatures:
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Elvish spirit guide
2 Kataki, War´s Wage
2 Knight of the Reliquary (I´m a sucker for this card, alright. Maybe it is flat out a mistake to have it in here, but it provides so much resiliency in slower match-ups.)
2 Leonin Arbiter (In your experience, how many creatures are needed to support ghost quarter?)
4 Leonin Relic-warder
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Vryn Wingmare (I really don´t like this card, but it has broad application and flying is a thing)

5 Enchantments:
1 Rest in Peace (clearly a hedge)
4 Stony Silence

2 Instants:
2 Swords to Plowshares (Another hedge. Stp is probably at it´s worst in 4 years or so.)

21 Lands:
2 Cavern of Souls (The deck has 12 white sources and 11 green sources, not counting cavern. I think that is as low as I´m willing to go, so not room for more caverns. Still a good card against blue decks.)
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Karakas (Still almost free to play. It is a liability against shops, but provides some cool interactions with all the little legends.)
3 Plains
4 Savannah
1 Strip Mine
1 Windswept heath (Could cut this and a cavern for a plains and a horizon canopy and still feel fine with my coloured mana.)


Sideboard:
4 containment priest (Which brings the hate for oath up to a fine level.)
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kataki, War´s Wage
1 Knight of The Reliquary (Shops, landstill, non-blue creature decks)
2 Choke (Together with Teeg, this gives the deck a shot against mentor, even though the match-up is probably still weak)
3 Rest in peace (Which brings the hate for dredge up to a fine level.)
1 Maze of Ith (Drawn-out creature match-ups)
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (Dredge and gush decks. May be a main-deck consideration over Stp.)

Any sort of feed-back is very welcome. I test very little and haven´t played this against hangarback aggro or dark petition storm. If you have tried something similar: Can this work, or is it futile to try?

I used to play cabal therapy in goblin lists, since it has strong synergy with earwig squad (resolving one informs you of how to use the other). One of the limitations with goblins is that it requires too high of a creature density to really support gitaxian probe (which should be good with earwig squad too). Rogues offers some additional synergy between therapy and looter.

This construction is missing cement though. I don´t want to be playing with oona´s blackguards and bitterblossoms. If young pyromancer was a rogue, the deck would be set. For now, waiting for another quality 1-2cc rogue or goblin that is good outside a 25+ goblins deck.

Could you please elaborate on the choice over both hammer mage and relic warder over Kataki? Particularly in an unpowered list with spirit guides, Kataki just stands out to me like a cleaner, more efficient maindeck card than hammer mage. It is only really effective together with a strong mana denial package, but you´ve got that covered. When artifact hate is weak (say against blue-red delver) Kataki at least puts a bit of pressure on the manabase, deals 2 and is easy to cast.

If Leonin Relic Warder had a relevant creature type, I would play it over Kataki. Even though Kataki has an easy manacost, it´s gravy that you can reasonably set your second cavern to spirit.

And: I would never leave home without the fourth wasteland in the main.

Thanks for the clarifications. I was sold on Eidolon from your primer. Not so much grand abolisher, but I´m sure that changes after having tested it. Though I have tested mayor some, I guess I need more time with him before he starts shining. In my mind, he would play out very well, but he hasn´t in practice yet.

I see spirit of the labyrinth as an alternative to teeg. They stop many of the same cards and force of will is largely turned off by this deck anyway. Teeg also has a manacost as complicated as pridemage in a cavern deck. Dig through time is one of the cards that give teeg an edge though.

When it comes to Tabernacle, I get that it´s essential. I play in a small playgroup and we don´t allow proxies, but I think there might be a Tabernacle that someone could lend me. I also don´t own power and would use 4 spirit guides instead of the jewelery (and still run chalice and stony for my friends, who do run power).

Thanks for the primer and a very polished list Storm.

I have been tinkering with knights and deathrites since deathrite was printed and have never really understood why you and Guli have been including nobels and less than 4 shamans. A few questions:

Could you explain the decision of running only 3 knights? It seems she is the only real fat in the deck and brings utility in every match-up. I guess the actual question might be: Which would be your cards number 61 to 63 in the main and which are the first 1-3 candidates for cutting?

I have been running bojuka bog in the main or side, depending on how likely it has seemed to face dredge. Bog doesn´t match very well with containment priest (or cage, before that) and I´m getting more and more convinced by Tabernacle, after having doubted its effectiveness initially. The problem is the price tag. I don´t think I will ever afford to buy it. Do you have an advice on maindeck dredge hate if Tabernacle is not an option?

It seems containment priest has utility in enough match-ups that it may warrant a maindeck slot. Especially, since opponents will often not be prepared to see her game one, before she flashes in. Could you give us a few words on why they are all in the side?

I´m a bit skeptical to the spread of creature types among your hate-bears and would try to reduce it by one type. I think that would be cat/wizard in most circumstances, and possibly go to 4 abrupt decay. Eidolon (spirit) seems really sweet, especially as a unique answer to mentor. Do you think spirit of the labyrinth is worth considering main or side?

I´ve been testing mayor and find him win-more. Since you propose to side him in versus shops (important) and mirror matches (less important), how about other alternatives with broader application? I would lead towards Kataki (another spirit), which should be effective with 5 strips in the main and ghost quarter(s) in the side.

So, blue control decks have gotten a very reliable ad reasonably fast kill condition. This reminds me of when tarmogoyf was printed; it was decent in aggro decks at the time, but fit even better in controlling, blue shells.

I´m not looking to play this guy myself, but expect it to be a nightmare for the low-powered creature decks I like to play. I´ve been thinking of good answers, but am coming up short. Of course most spot removal spells deal with it, but a counter or even a gush in response ends up putting a guy in play that outgrows mine. It seems like a decent thing to name with meddling mage, sine it will tend to be a 3-4 of. Has anybody found an actual strong way to answer this card for a creature deck?

Is a counterbalance control deck that doesn´t want to wrath the board every few turns conceivable? I´d love to see this in action with countertop, meddling mage and vendilion clique.

Thanks Boggyb! I believe this makes dryad arbor playable in vial Maverick (no GSZs).

Hi guys,

Does dryad arbor have a converted mana cost? Or more specifically, can I vial it in with a vial with no counters on it?

Thanks in advance,

I really like the synergy between this and counterbalance. In the late game, rather than finding an otherwise useless sorcery to make angels or animate a puny, destructable land, the scry-machine turns into a 4-turn, unblockable clock. Of course Jace already does something similar.

This doesn´t make it vintage playable at all of course, but I´d like to give it a swing anyway.

Such a shame they nerfed bazaar trader. Giving away illusions of grandeur would be old-school and cool. And quite doable on turn three.

Isn´t most of the point of putting oath in this deck to play around hate? Witness into yawgwin gets owned both by Thalia and Leyline.

Wow! Great catch. I have never thought of the range of possibilities this opens up with lackey. 

Hehe... Goblin recruiter, pandemonium, lackey, ringleader, lackey, Kiki-jiki, lightning crafter, Skirk prospector... For instance, athough pandemonium is only for casual.

This card may have other uses, apart from a beater in blue control/aggro control. It might be a sideboard option in legacy burn decks against blue, for instance. Looks like a must-counter.

I have had problems finding evasive early drops to turn on ninja of the deep hours without being useless in the deck otherwise. Sadly, ninja was good a few years ago and I don´t see how this card makes it good again by itself.

Would love to use it in casual though. Mono blue with this, ninja, snapcaster, delver and back to basics could be fun.

This. I love your current creature suite though.

Oops, kinda forgot that confidant has a draw-back. Still, I think the deck would benefit from scrapping sneak attack alltogether and reducing the number of bombs. Of course I may be way off base. No experience against sneak attack.

A shame you can't make it this year! I would probably have played aggro-combo: Ghastclamp plus tendrils. It combos off late-ish (turn 4-5), but packs 4 very effective cabal therapies main and some bounce to keep big creatures off. I'm pretty happy with it, and I think it's a good choice for this years meta. We seem to be low on pure aggro and it deals quite well with combo. I'll send you a link to the decklist once I bother to put it together.

Have fun with work, home and cars!

Hehehe..

Show and tell turn two looks strong. I'm not so sure about sneak attack though. I would try lowering the numbers on your creatures, sneak attacks and big-Jace and replace them with draw/deck manipulation, to avoid dead draws. Running black for confidants and tutors may be the most obvious choice, but splashing red for sneak attack is risky in the meta you're facing. Also: People will probably pack hate for permanent-based combos. Though being an enchantment rather than an artifact helps, sneak attack still has a big, bright bulls-eye painted on it.

Though sneak attack is hilarious, I'm pretty sure straight UB with tinker or oath would be better.

And wheel of fortune will be better for half your opponents than it'll be for you. I wouldn't run it main, at least.

I wish I could face you in The Cave this year. Unfortunately I'll be in another country at the time.

Nice! Should be really good alongside ninja of the deep hours (since you play a bunch of crappy one-drops).

Makes sense. Thank you!

Thank you! The card reads quite clearly, but I wondered if they had done something with evoke precisely to avoid this kind of interaction.

Hi guys!

When I evoke a creature (ingot chewer), can I respond to the sacrifice trigger with an effect (in this case, sacrifice the creature to carrion feeder)?

Hi guys!

Does cabal ritual count itself in the graveyard when it resolves? (if it is the seventh card, do I get 5 mana?)

This. In most instances you should be able to side it out for something better. And if not you still got instant speed vindicate, so it's all fine.

Oops. Thank you Peter, I didn't take that into account. Even though clamp and specter don't go well together, they are both strong cards that have a lot of interconnecting synergies in the proposed list. I think I would still try and make them fit. Specter can still be clamped and sacced to all the sorceries in the list, for instance.

Adding another color sounds like a bad idea. You will manascrew yourself regularly and black has a lot more to offer this deck.

I was surprised not to see skullclamp in your list, as it goes very well with ghasts and specters (kind of broken, actually). A more powerful draw engine will also allow you to play the full set of rituals. Null rod would be the only sensible reason not to run clamp here, IMO.

Take a look at a friend's old pox deck: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=796&iddeck=4921

The most interesting difference between your build and his, is the inclusion of four urborg, tomb of yawgmoth. This lets him play non-swamp lands like wasteland and factory. Rather than factory, I would be inclined to try out dark depths, since you get the ability to just kill your opponent. I'm sure someone has tested this a fair deal and could provide you with a tuned list, but I would take your deck and do this with it:

15 Hand Hate:
3   Pox
4   Smallpox
3   Inquisition of Kozilek
4   Cabal Therapy (can hit yourself, functions with your creatures. Consider it a more flexible and fun! hymn to tourach)

10 Creatures:
4   Bloodghast
3   Sedraxis Specter
3   vampire hexmage

7 "Draw":
4   skullclamp
3   crucible of worlds

3 Stuff:
1   vampiric tutor
1   demonic consultation
1   demonic tutor

26 Mana:
4   Dark ritual
4   Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4   Wasteland
1   Strip mine
3   Dark depths
5   fetchlands
5   Swamp