so, i'm not a dredge player but it is definately prevailent in my meta game and im well enough versed in it's merthods to understand most of it's inner-actions.
that being said i must also say that i've delved into these threads and found nothing about tolarian winds.....

tolarian winds 1u
instant
discard your hand, then draw that many cards.

i am not a practitioner of dredge, so i'm not advocating the inclusion of tolarian winds, but this does seem like the proper place to inquire as to why i havn't heard it's merits debated.
 

so i guess that card is just as lame as the name implies, huh?
goblin bombardment + fecundity, to draw cards per blue mana... woot-woot

U: Regenerate Spiny Starfish.
At end of turn, if Spiny Starfish regenerated this turn, put a 0/1 blue Starfish creature token into play for each time it regenerated this turn.


C. Rules text:

501.5. Regenerate

501.5a If the effect of a resolving spell or ability regenerates a permanent, it creates a replacement effect that protects the permanent the next time it would be destroyed this turn. In this case, “Regenerate [permanent]” means “The next time [permanent] would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage from it, tap it, and (if it’s in combat) remove it from combat.”

so does this mean i generate a token for each U i spend on regenerating spiny starfish?

post board i've been siding out 1 WGD for 1 living wish. that nulls extirpate.

 i also run ancient grudge and ray of revelation. that helps pop off crpyt and relic. with such a surplus of tutors plus so many cards to load the yard these prove to be really efficient.

 the double animate is still the biggest play for wgd post board.  hate is circumventable, but counters are a perpetual threat.
 seeing as how my combo is an instant and duress is a sorcery i'm also hard pressed not to play some number of alternate wins. i play read the runes/cunning wish, plus the typical Oona kill, that way i should have no problem picking up my winning under counter hate.

the win at instant speed is a realy tough contender for most yard hate, however i draw, pitch, tutor, for a lot of cards. this in mind i like to have the option to either remove, or play around the hate, to better accomodate myself in a random situation. because if anyone else plays wgd like i do they've found that most plays are random but function well do to card synergy.

as far as fish decks are concerned caller of the claw has been my mvp.
cannonist, rootmaze, and teeg, and aven mindscencor are all irrelevent to caller. pridemage is of no real concern unless you've already lost the tempo,(which you shouldn't), and samuri of the pale curtain becomes the must answer. which isn't an incredible hassle.

stax has been tricky for me. mono red and 9 spere. i've started plowing through those decks though by utilzing pithing needle and lake of the dead. i love boarding out my artifact accelerants and boarding in lake of the dead. it's a land, it's unexpected, and it produces explosive mana when it hits the board.

in short, i think beyond durres effects most hate/control belongs boarded in wgd. and a lot of that should be yard abusable do to synergy. some bounce for leylines and a plan for dredge and the deck becomes quite resilient post board. especially considering you probably only need 1 more win at that point.

you should play a fourth WGD main deck and 1 living wish sideboard. that way you see the dragon with study or thoughtseize more often and, you can board out 1 dragon for 1 wish for extirpate defense.
as far as maindeck hate like crypt/relic, i wouldn't recomend it. however if it is a course you deem to be beneficial, i would suggest something with flashback to increase intuition synergy. ancient grudge, ray of revelation, or coffin purge.
also being unpowered you have sufficient room for an altermate win con. i would focus on that in the decks construction. maybe Iona and a reanimate spell. or better yet something eay to set up with tutors that doesn't abuse the yard.

if a deck like this wanted a green time walk why wouldn't you board in 4 seedtimes. last time i checked 3 out of 4 decks ran blue.

where do you sign up?

good post fury. let me add on a few points.

yard hate
i was not only speaking of activated abilities and instant speed effects here. you must also consider the replacement effect from leyline or the triggered abillity from planar void. these both shut down our combo and our ability to use DA to draw into a solution.

speed
it is a tempo sacrifice to cut 9 mana accelerants post board, but there are still a couple of available second turn wins beyond that point, and frequent 3-4 turn wins with a duress back up or a double animate.
 is that really subpar to a teir 1 deck post board? what does tps or ant do there? hold a force instead of animate #2?

control measures
 has anyone actually tested the control options that entomb presents? with 4 entomb and 4 tutors the power of a single ancient grudge or ray of revelation is quite accessable.
this is pretty, leyline/crypt/relic, proof.
in addition to disruption and post board bounce you gain a nice protection wall.
also consider this. a player will duress your force or chain. who calls entomb?

sen triplets
sen is a fun card. i used to play it in edh. i've usually went without second reanimation targets because if i get the animate off i usually just want the draw. but if i was to put the extra creature in i would call platinum angel. i added one to my SCV and it raised the dredge wins, fish wins, and combo wins.

it seems the point of differance revolves around
4 force             4 thought seize
4 intuition    vs. 4 entomb
ring/moxen       4 ritual
3 DA                tutors

i would like to devise a gauntlet of decks and run both of these builds through it and note the differences. determine which cards or the lack there of, caused the wins or the losses.
it would make for an interesting study.
 

is there any relevant info in these letters?

it's nice to hear from a player that has been playing WGD as lond as i have. i've seen you post on other deagon threads i was wondering if you were going to pick up these newer ones.
abeyance sounds like a good call to me. there has been times when i wanted an orims chant but i never quite thought about abeyance.
i was more curious about the sen triplets in the board. what matches does this see play in?

you stated you did not beleive the speed versions of WGD could yield results. This is a fair statement. have you ever ran an ANT build?  the ritual dragon lists play something like this game 1. your trying to increase your odds of drawing into a turn 1 kill. this requires minimizing mana consuming draw spells, spells with only one function, and protection that is usually needed beyound turn2.
however, this is were the beauty lies, post board the deck gains strength. i play 3 pithing needle, 2 chain of vapor, and 1 echoing truth that come in mandatory evey match. on top of 4 maindeck thoghtseize and 4 tutors, the deck stands a legitimate chance at controling all neccessary threats. not to mention the 4 leyline, hurkylls recall ,and tormods crypt i run for hate. i also have the option of wishing for a counter mid combo. that's a fair amount of control for a deck that has the ability to get a turn 1-2 win even post board on a lucky draw.
post board rituals near always come out. speed is not the goal in those games ritual dragon is only built for speed in game 1.

i beleive the most underestimated factor is the decks tendancy to win off a lone land.

anyways, i like your list, do you ever find yourself wishing that one of those chain of vapors was an echoing truth?
i was also wodering about mystical tutor not making the cut? i know you draw a lot of cards, but post board i figured you would need to see some tutor power with the grave hate knocking out the better part of intuition/DA's draw ability.
has this not been a problem?

Considering you play no artifact accelerants have you tested rootmaze? it doesnt remove threats, but is does give you time to duress them. alsn i beleive sol ring to be of use in lists like these.

well spoken.
  on demonic vs. magus i beleive you may be making the wrong comparison. I play 4 blak tutors in my dragon build. the mvp is not demonic tutor, but demonic consultation.
  Magus of the bazaar is good. it allows the horror to be more effective, which i failed to address in my post, i was merely trying to elaborate on the neccessity of speed over heavy draw to wrap up game 1 quickly. you need game 1.
 magus is great pre or post, but should probably only show up post for tempo reasons.
because as you said:
Situation #1: You have Dragon.
Magus allows for turn 1 Magus followed by turn 2 Duress, Animate for the win.
 this does not win. it only draws the game un less you amazingly have an Oona in the yard or hand.
Had that magus been an entomb/study, you would have accomplished the same thing without mana acceleration needed. wich makes it more likely to occur.
this alone shows the drop in tempo you receive from magus. you are now dependant on turn 1 acceleration to get your quick win which turns a 3 card plan into a 4 card plan.
however this does not mean these cards are better choices than magus. there are many other contributing factors. this was only a look at tempo.

on force/durres
this is a hard decision for any combo player. i myself play the durres effects because i like the abillity to thoughtseize my wgd and i like maximizing ritual efficiency.
i understand the dire need to eradicate bounce from the equation, and god forbid, extirpate.
bounce isn't as much of a problem for some wgd but i imagine it would be for this deck.
tezz did it to me twice in testing but luckily i had not burned through most of my deck yet on those occasions. once i was able to get back online. bouce is not game over for dragon. especially if you run heavy black ritual/entomb. those builds frequently win off 1 land anyways.

i was advocating, and am currently testing, the force plan on the assumption that i will draw more cards than my opponent and thereby, make my counters more relevant than disruption, due to the sheer number i can cast if need be. if my opponent has bounce i can force instead of using crucial mana for the pre-emptive durres. you can not cast durres mid combo either if they bounce while you're balls deep in a triggered ability chain. however you can force here.
this is a main reason why i run a cunning wish in my ritual build. i can durres or thought seize off ritual mana all day or wish for a counter mid combo.

it should also be noted, because it is sometimes relevant, that if you are comboing for mana off orchard, than a player may hesitate to cast their control spell. this is the same with drain.

as far as a secondary re-animation target goes, i highly recomend it. i play them myself sometimes. however if it isn't iona it must be shroud because the whole reason to go that route is to circumvent bounce, because you certainly are not dodging yard hate this way. i actually played 1 reanimate before as  something i could demonic for and cast off the same ritual.
the flaw i found in this plan was it does not win instantly and allows me a chance to still lose.
i would rather just cast the animate here and call a draw.

this is my list.

4 worldgorger dragon
1 caller of the claw
artifacts(5)
1 black lotus
1 lotus petal
1 mox saphire
1 mox jet
1 mana crypt
enchantments(7)
4 animate dead
3 dance of the dead
1 necromancy
instants(19)
4 dark ritual
4 entomb
4 read the runes
2 cunning wish
1 demonic consultation
1 vampiric tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 brainstorm
sorcery(7)
4 thoughtseize
1 demonic tutor
1 imperial seal
land(17)
4 bazaar of baghdad
4 forbidden orchard
1 polluted delta
4 underground sea
4 misty rainforest
1 gemstone mine

my fish yields run like yours.
i assume were you insert rotate i insert thoughtseize, which isn't only utilized for disruption. turn 1 ritual,seize,animate is a strong tempo boost.
it adds for another reliable option over entomb animate and takes dependance off bazaar.

rotate is good but in the face of so many card options it isn't optimal. you have to have some protection or you just won't win. redundancy and necromancy help, but some times you need a counter or duress effect to go anywhere game1.

what are the additional 11 cards you fish with off your partial list?  recall is an auto include. it can open a turn one discard step to pitch WGD.

riftstone portal is an option but i wouldnt yard it unless bazaar was already in play. then i wouldn't need green or white. only black and blue. unless you mean to rotate off my bazaar for a mana producing land, but bazaar would already be tapped and could not produce the green that R.P. allows. so i guess i'm not really following that.

I'm starting to think you play rotate like i play runes. to find the win once infinant.
both of these cards do something else when compared. rotae finds a bazaarpre-combo and runes pitches gorge/draws for mana pre-combo. i guess it's a judgement call from ther more than likely based upon the rest of the repsective build more than the cards themselves.

So far in testing i have not found a reason to run this build over traditional WGD.
yes the draw engine is supperior, however i beleive that relevance to be questionable.
3 points
1. traditional wgd sees it's pieces just as fast as this build.
2.you're not drawing ino a force or any other counter for that matter.
3. without petal or ritual you're really not even drawing into the mana to disrupt.

DicemanX's wgdx played a superior draw engine to it's contemporaries, intuition/deep analysis, this was relevant only due to the presence of F.O.W.
you draw more cards, you counter more spells, you win with more surety.

-by playing the advanced bazaar engineyou make yourself less prone to disruption and more prone to wate/lock effects.
-by running disruption over counters you slow your clock on averageand make yourself more prone to being countered.
you may be able to draw 3duress, but you can't cast them all, or even most of them if one of your land drops is bazaar. this is emphasized by the limited(2) black accelerants.
your acceleration seems to be geared for magus(a long game card or a good card on a good draw.), and animate dead, (the final spell you will play.)
insted i beleive the accelerants should be allocated to accomodate your protection, which in this case, is all black.
-I't's not good principle to cast your disruption until you think you can win before you know your oppnent can draw.
-A force in the hand counters a force on the stack. A duress in the hand doesn't do much.
-I beleive the inclusion of 8 force/pact/pierce over the 8 duress effects, would increase the deck's efficiency on many levels.

additional blue could be included to increase F.O.W. yeilds, however i doubt it's neccessary to include the typically requisite 20 blue spells when you playsuch a massive draw engine.

my testing will steer this way.


what are your current side board thoughts? what have you found this builds hardest match ups to be ?

EDIT_ on magus.
magus is an exceptional card that i'm surprised hasn't found it's way to dragon builds before now.
it takes pressure off protecting bazaar. magus is un-wastable and not the first card to get named to needle. it can also absorb bounce spells that would target your dragon under normal circumstances. but i do beleive it to be better utilized as a board card. no one would board in creature removal if they did not see magus game 1, and it serve well as an answer finder under bazaar lock pressure. game 1 i would play careful study. if, as you state, magus relevacy steers towards the turn 2 win off a mox then study fufills the same roll. it's not as stable late gme but it adds for good hate circumvention game 2-3.
dragon should maximize speed game 1 and this change does not divert that course. it even enables you to take an additional turn to find your mox.

this is all very true. i must just have bad luck against stax. they always seem to get god draws when i'm on the other side of the table. they always seem to weld into stax via bazaar pretty quick.
i played 18 games(preboard 3 rounds) with this build replacing the off color moxen with dark rituals. here were the results:
wgd  8 wins 10 losses
dredge 5 wins 1 loss
scv 2 wins 4 losses
stax 3 wins 3 losses
my tezz player was mia, so no further testing there.

i found my self playing poorly at first i was trying to mull past the draw engine and find the animate plus bazaar or bazaar plus dragon. i remember passing a first turn magus cast, with an animate in hand. in retrospect that was a poor decision.
i really didn't utilize magus at all besides 2 matches against stax. when do you go with the magus plan? i used him the other day against tezz and liked him. he kind of strikes me as a board slot against the drain or stax match.
was he the reason you opted for moxen over rituals? rituals allowed me my win over dredge.
they strike me as quite powerful here.

i've wanted to play crop rotate in dragon for a long time especially with orchard for the oath transformation. however it's never managed to yeild positive results for me. the extra tutor slots seem to slow the clock about a turn. i've usually opted for finding cards that win in multiple scenarios, instead of playing cards that consume mana and fetch cards that win in a set scenario. dragon is aiming to win in the first 3 turns.
crop roation does hit bazzar which is free to play for the win and the pitch, however rotate costs 1, and animate costs 2 ,which means you have to produce 3 mana and you only get 2 land drops before bazaar and one of those mana has to be green. this is all turn 3.
if you want to win on turn 2 with rotate you have to find 3 mana with only 1 land drop before bazaar and you have to produce a green.
this also limits your abbility to cast disruption before you combo. i currently run 4 black tutors in my build that hit any card, but only because they're black, meaning i can cast them off ritual. if the same cards were blue i would probably not play them in dragon.
crop rotation is tempting but it just doesn't fit.

it is a very rare occurance to have to call a draw once you cast an animate. the problem in this match for me was casting the animate. with no rituals, no ring, and no vault a chalice at zero locks out all acceleration. with one land drop needing to be bazaar before you cast animate that means i have to go three turns atleast without seeing 1 of 9 spere effects or a tangle wire, (if chalice is in play.), befor i can cast animate for the win and atleast 2 turns with an alternate way to pitch wgd on turn 1. thats a lot for a forceless wgd build to struggle against.
i don't play force in my dragon build either and currently i'm running 6 duress effects. my best wepon against stax is a turn 1 win and i didn't happen to net any of those in the 12 games i played but i plan on playing another 12 with a slightly modified version of this build tomorrow. 

i put together your list and played 12 games last night. 4 against SCV, 4 against tezz, and 4 against mono red stax. all pre board. tezz won1, SCV won0, stax won3, dragon won8.

 this is about what i expected. where do your results against stax differ from mine? every dragon build i play has bad stax matches. am i just doing something wrong?
with a first turn chalice@0 and sphere, followed by a turn 2 sphere, how do you get on? how do you fight through a turn 1 chalice@0 followed by a tangle wire? with 5 waste effects and you having a low permanent count for smoke stax, how can you even get the animate out? sure you can out draw stax but that doesn't help for anything but pitching WGD. a hand full of cards you can't cast is of very little value. you just slowly watch your life dwindle to barbarian ring.
am i making crucial play mistakes? or do stax builds just very by our respective metagames. i tend to have good match ups against B/R stax with dragon.

and as for noble fish, ive had amazing results with bounce in the board and caller of the claw in traditional dragon builds.

sideboard
1 lake of the dead
1 echoing truth
2 chain of vapor
1 stroke of genius
3 pithing needle
1 pact of negation
4 leyline of the void
1 hurkyll's recall
1 tormods crypt

this is the sideboard for my wgd build that i've had eccelent results with.
i've found that stax is the largest threat pre or post board. mono red stax inparticular.

i've played many versions of dragon including squee. i didn't use horror maybe that would have helped. i ended up running more green and little blue i cut down the number of dragons, played living wish to fight through extirpate, survival ofthe fittest to pitch, xantid swarm to protect(usually i wished this was a city of solitude), and crop rotation to find bazaar and lake of the dead.
the deck ended up being slow and worthless. great for casual play at cardshops but horrible for competative vintage.
 when i tried squee i never saw a hand i wanted to keep and mulligans were a killer. the only reason i initally wanted squee was for survival an bazaar. survival turned out to be slow crap and i cut bazzar for study.
now that i.ve re-introduced bazaar into my build sque could be a possibility. however i think i circumvent the need for squee in playing multiples of essential cards. this way i can activate bazaar pitch my cards and still have the cars to win.
i understand in doing this i really can't utilize bazaar as a draw engine, but does dragon really need that? i usually see 2 out of 3 win components in my first hand and a lot of times i don't even win with bazaar. i like magus he's cool . but he's another guy that i wouldn't want to see in my first hand.
i guess i have 3 questions.
1- what turn do you typically see a win on game1?
2-what turn do you see a win with castable disruption?
3-how is your match up against stax, pre and post board?

when i was a kid my elves used to kill people with killer bees.
if you win with killer bees, you're a pimp

yeah i imagine tutors do make wraiths good. that was my favorite part of whispers and study. it allowed for some crazy first turns when you saw multiple accelerants.
have you ever tried running the DA in the board to maximize speed on game 1. or do you still play  complete oath board?

by the bye- how is your match up against dredge?

kaervek's spite.
if your first T.o.A isn't lethal it should do the job.
suicide can win EOT,and a turn faster at that.
it's not only a horrible vintage card that fits this list, it's a horrible vintage card that no one has ever heard of.

Please use capitals where appropriate in future.
-Godder

@swawagon
you are right about the thoughtsieze and i've emphasized many times that i would like to fit more them in. i beleive it is really what the build needs. would you have any suggestions on their inclusion that does not call for the removal of wish.

on the topic of board configuration vs. second game hate.... well i suppose i meant it like this, enchantment removal that comes in for oath, along with diabolic edict are good against dragon, but not game over. Greater Garadon is useless, bounce is harsh as well, but not game over and if a player had additional bounce in the board they would send it in against dragon or oath. the point is that dragon can still fight through all of this. however, dragon can not fight through extirpate, and fighting through crypt/relic is much more difficult than replaying your field. it does not take much time to get on-line again with dragon

i'm still up in the air as to whether  the transformational build or the fight and hate build is better.
i am sure about some facts though.
with oath in i would rather see dragon hate.
with dragon in i would rather see oath hate, even though it is still effective against dragon.
this tells me that deception is a strong element, and i would like to exploit that.
so the information i was trying to garner from my question was highly relevant in determining which sideboard may be the optimal choice.

@brassman
i thouroughly agree with your statement on something of this nature being a classic mistake in sideboarding. however, if you analze my sideboard posted, against the transformational oath boards, then compare that to the current feild, do you really think i'm sacrificing deck strength.
the only strength i may lose through the deception could be the tokens i give them from orchard. but if that means i see a GG or even a diabolic edict game 2 instead of an extirpate then i think it was well worth it. Gambits do not always come at a sacrifice

thank you both for your posts. any more input will be appreciated.

the side board has changed to include 1 hurkyll's recall and 1tormod's crypt. the list now looks like this:
Creatures(5)
4 worldgorger dragon
1 caller of the claw
artifacts(5)
1 black lotus
1 lotus petal
1 mox saphire
1 mox jet
1 mana crypt
enchantments(7)
4 animate dead
3 dance of the dead
1 necromancy
instants(19)
4 dark ritual
4 entomb
4 read the runes
2 cunning wish
1 demonic consultation
1 vampiric tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 brainstorm
sorcery(7)
4 duress
1 demonic tutor
1 imperial seal
land(17)
4 bazaar of baghdad
4 forbidden orchard
1 polluted delta
4 underground sea
4 misty rainforest
1 gemstone mine

sideboard
1 lake of the dead
1 echoing truth
2 chain of vapor
1 stroke of genius
3 pithing needle
1 pact of negation
4 leyline of the void
1 hurkyll's recall
1 tormods crypt

an idea for further posting.... not many players expect to see WGD in a competative enviorment, therefor they do not pack sideboard cards especially for it. so my question is what would you board in against WGD from what deck. extirpate is clearly the best choice however most people i play against only pack leylines, crypts, and relics for yard removal. traps are also efficient but i don't beleive many players consider that.

 the large question is this: if you were to play against wgd and see orchard, misty, and no green spells, would you board for dragon combo or oath of druids?

them i would at least switch the consultation for an imperial seal.

Maybe squirell nest and earthcraft  with a full slate of e.tutor. or draco explosion with wordly and sylvan tutors. or a platinum angel with necro and final fortune. these would all be funny but i still recomend wgd.

it seems isochron scepter and a small pool of imprintable cards could be a choice. i know that's typically underpowered in todays meta, but then again so is a combo that doesn't win. so scepter is probably a good choice for the budget. it can answer permanent threats like oath/ fish/dredge/ and whatever pluas it adds an adiitional lock with lab when you apply an orim's chant or a counter. plus with intuition and accumulated knowledge it's a nice draw engine and if you're not satisfied with remora maybe you could use a new option
 

i would assume something like innocent blood would be good with bitterblossom. also with ritual and so many cheap cards, how long does it take you to topdeck? you don't run much draw. shouldn't  you should consider 4night whisper over consultation, 1 land, 1thoughtsieze, and 1 card. probably a blossom unless you decide to include more cards to abuse blossom.
right now i don't see how you use tendrills unless you hit will or necro. i wouldn't think you would normally hold that many cards, and you only run 3 cards that provide card advantage at a pace faster than confidant, which i'm sure usually gets knocked off the board before anything else you play. eitherway he must take several turns before he can impact the storm count.
maybe you should play around with clamp and see if it shows results with your blossoms.

this just doesn't seem very competative. what turn do you usually win by?  if someone brings in hate on your clamp, what do you do? you should have atleast 1 fecundity in the board, and 1 undiscovered paradise maindeck to rotate for.
also you run tutors. why not play atleast 1 crucible.
with the large mana cost on ob nixis you could benifit from cards like lake of the dead, cabal coffers, or some such accelerant lands.
really to be competative it seems like you have to have something other than clamp to fill your hand with lands, because clamp is slow without fastbond to push it along, and with only 2 tutors you need clamp to help find fastbond. you should consider other ways to drop more lands. if you ran blue i would say sea drake and gush or for a land i'd say lotus vale, or other lands that let you return lands.
what is your normal method of fetching fastbond, what turn do you usually see it by?

you should try worldgorger dragon combo without bazaar.  carefull study and entomb still allow for a steady second turn win especially if the meta is mainly aggro. dark ritual is a good solution to no moxes in the meta. by running powerless you lose 4 cards out of the build and bazaars still would be an option if you cared to purchase them.