Hey, it's Alden.  I was playing a tri-color combo-control deck, nicknamed "Jits" for Jank Is The Shit.  It ran some pretty terrible cards (as most of my decks do), but did pretty well.

Props to ELD for the proxy idea and the fun tournament, and slops to Andy for smashing my face Round 7.  Still a fun match though:)

"Perfecting Tendrils combo builds"

I can understand that if we are trying to create a "Perfect" build for Tendrils-based decks that arguing single cards in or out of the deck will occur and is, in fact, at times useful.  However, when a post is created with a innovative idea and become filled with debating over three or four cards, I believe the innovative side of Vintage's best becomes, in a sense, stifled.  No pun intended for the mentioned deck;)

I believe that we are all in agreement that we are dealing with primarily four versions of Tendrils -- Draw7, DeathLong, TPS (U/B), and TPS (5c).  
We all agree that each deck has specific characteristics as speed, consistency, disruption or bombs that give it a place in our Vintage level, though each differs on which.

The question posed pertained to "What is the Perfect Tendrils-based combo?"  This implies our current meta -- which changes according to where you live.  Living in the Northeast US, I've found our meta to be filled with primarily Workshop-based decks, Slaver/Titan, Mono-U or Fish, but also includes Tendrils, Dragon, 'Tog, FCG, and numerous other decks which occasionally pop up (i.e. Landstill, Belcher(s), Aggro, Oath, 4cc (yes, occasionally), and multiple others.)  I don't know the current meta's in other area's, but ask if it is very different from the above mentioned list, please post such.

If our post is aiming strictly at the current metagame, this is much different from aiming at Tendrils as a whole.  I believe this post is aimed towards Tendrils as a whole -- so if your meta includes more Workshop based decks, yes, more removal might be wise.  If Deathlong is better for your meta, yes, Consultation generally should be included -- I don't see why not for already stated reasons. But if we're staying away from the specific meta, and try to just create a "New and improved" version of Tendrils, I believe that (excluding the first page and MaxxMatt's post) we're turned away from "Perfecting Tendrils" and have just started what we see in each Tog, Fish and 4cc build -- arguments over personal preferences.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I believe that we should try to focus more in innovative ideas rather than debating if Frantic Search, Demonic Consultation, or a fourth copy of bounce would be included in our final build.  We began this post started from the bottom working our way up, beginning first with the mana base, needed brokenness, Tendrils, and Draw 7.  I believe the new questions to pose are:  Do metagame cards need to fill out the rest of the deck?  Does metagame depict such a strong force right now that we can't have one solid Tendrils combo build?  Is it even possible?

@ Windfall - I don't believe that the point of Brain Freeze in the Sideboard is for a new win condition, rather something to help.  At least I wouldn't switch the Tendrils for them, rather board in one or two.  If an opponent has played 15 spells, and then goes for a draw spell (Ancestral, Brainstorm, Wheel, Windfall, Jar, etc. as the 16th spell), and you follow it up with a Brain Freeze, they more than likely lose right there.  If they tried to run a cantrip turn one or two, failed, and hence have a deck of even a less size, it takes less spells.  They key to the kill is catching them EOT, when they play a draw spell, or (if you're lucky) to Ancestral them to death.  It actually works decently well vs. the mirror, and while Stifle can save you a turn, this can win you the game.

@ Marton - I don't believe Brain Freeze is generally a better card than Stifle, but in the mirror, I have little doubt that it is.  Again, Stifle can gain you a turn, possibly two - all you need to win.  But Brain Freeze can win it right there for you.  The only problem is if they go 9th spell, then Tendrils with a library full.  Luckily, with 4DR, Will, Desire, and of course the obvious large amounts of draw, this is rare.

@ Steve - 11 mana-lands is a bit odd, but if it works and isn't janky at all, I don't really want to touch it.  Besides, you're running 4 Rituals, 4 ESG's, Fastbond, and 13 mana producing artifacts, of which 10 have a 0cc.  As you said in your own words:

Which is all you need for a draw7, Draw, or Brokenness.  11 lands, 13 artifacts, and 8 additional mana producers = 34 cards, over half of the deck.  Henceforth, though the land count itself is low, the additional cards more than make up for it.

As for the Spiral issue - I've made my case, and won't beat it more than I have to.  Though Wish can be fun, we've also discussed the fact that it can be a dead card.  The preference (IMO) is either speed and consistency in this one slot or Wishable room board Tendrils, Hull Breach, Balance, or numerous other spells.  The only time I've regretted not having Wish in the MD is against Slaver (Tinker VS Tendrils for the face off), but even then you have games 2 and 3 if you couldn't race beforehand.  A third Tendrils I believe is not needed - I have yet to remove both win conditions with a DR, though it is totally possible.

As for Cunning Wish - it could be, but I'd assume that you'd want to have more instants on the SB for spot removal. What would be possibilities to fit in?  At least a Platinum Angel or Meddilng Mage wouldn't equal and auto-loss.  A Wish, Chain of Vapor, or Hurkyl's Recall are needed Maindecked if you want removal obviously, but if opting for speed,  something else entirely.  Guess it's back to the good 'ol playtesting arena for the Wish...just now blue...

@ Nehptis - Sideboard really changes wish whomever is playing Draw7.  Even now we've been discussing it.  Xantid Swarms are a pretty solid choice against control, with Tormod's Crypt being a second (though somewhat poor) second choice.  Swarms are solid though - they're good in other matchups as well.

@ Mixing Mike - Glad you've been testing out with Frantic Search, and that you've been having good results.  Since when have I not been the only player in Rhode Island who plays combo?   And when/if you playtest against someone else, perhaps you can let us know how that goes?  Goldfishing FS should be better than Spiral anyways because, well...you're goldfishing, and a free spell > 6cc cantrip if you don't need to worry about counters.

BTW - How does FS produce more mana than Time Spiral the majority of the time by the end of the game?  Will?  Other than that, I totally agree - Frantic Search has proven well, and I haven't found losing a 6cc Draw7 that hard to deal with.  

~ Alden ~

JDawg13 - please understand that the following is merely a collection of my own experiences in playtesting, and I am in no way trying to tell you that Time Spiral is bad; I'm simply offering my opinion.



I'll try to address each point you made;)

First off - Replacing a must counter with a card that hopes to draw a must counter.  True - but there are many, many instances in which a 6cc card is a "must counter" to any player, is perfect for Drains, and helps win the game - it doesn't win the game itself.  Frantic Search doesn't only draw for a "must counter", but can dig for anything you need.  Mana, Tutors, a Force, uping a storm count, and it uses only 3 mana if countered, usually 1 or none if it resolves.  

Maximum Threat Density of Draw7 - Must like a Brainstorm, Ancestral Recall, Dark Ritual, Crop Rotation or even ESG's, Frantic Search is there to lead into or be continuous acceleration with an inevitable 'pwnage' when you go off.  Like the cards listed in this pile, if they resolve, they usually all cost you 1, 0, or net you additional mana.  Except for the ESG's, they bounce you an additional storm.  And like the rest of the cards in this pile, they can all be used very quickly - Spiral cannot.  When I play Draw7, I want to sprint through the deck playing and drawing as much as possible, and a 3cc card that's going to better my hand, up my storm counter, and probably only cost me 1 or none to play is amazing.  Spiral = Greater threat at a greater cost - something that is definitely an option with the mana, but the greater cost I've found too great too often.  Brokenness + Spiral = boatloads of fun, but with the exception of Desire, Frantic Search is usually just as potent because you'll have drawn into a cheaper Draw7.

Keeping the buisness pure - Few decks have had complete synergy, and the closest things I have seen recently were Long and U/G/R Madness pre-LED's restriction.  With most other decks, you usually hit at least a couple cards that...well, at the time, you really don't want.  With Long/Madness, you could pretty much Mulligan once if you had to but always had a keepable hand with nearly everything ready to be played, discarded or Wished.  Draw7 and Belcher are now the closest because they're built to race, draw, and hit with such speed that the cards are forced to have synergy.  This brings us back to - keeping the buisness pure.

Frantic Search isn't a pure buisness spell because it doesn't allow you to say "cantrip" upon resolution, but neither do any mana sources, draw (excluding Draw-7), Forces, or Crop Rotation.  However, these spells find their place because they are buisness spells - just not auto-cantrips.  They moreso set up cantrips and allow them to happen with ease.  For reasons already explained, Frantic Search does this.  Time Spiral, though a cantrip, does not go off with ease usually, and doesn't usually untap more lands than a FS.  FS can search for FoW backup for a draw7, while Spiral would have to play a Draw7, get it countered, and play another Draw7 next turn.  I've just found that FS on many more occasions is the buisness I'd like to invest in, while Time Spiral gets left in the dust.

Teh Possibilities with Desire - Totally in Time Spiral's favor.  Hands down.  Possibly untap more lands (fun things with Fastbond), and Draws 7 instead of draw two, lose two.  Frantic Search is, as said before, "good" with Desire, but Time Spiral Owns.

Topdecking Mode - Honestly, Time Spiral is better than FS, but not by much.  Let's say you take a risky hand of a Draw-7, the mana to play it, and not much else - perhaps a Brainstorm.  I'd rather topdeck a FS at this point, with so little mana, than a Time Spiral that's just another dead card in my hand.  Later on, however, when mana is easily accesssible and begging to be ab(used), Time Spiral can swing for quite a lot more.  Topdecking preference = mana capacities, and obviously what your hand is looking like.  And as said before, a 6cc spell is tasty on a Drain when looking at Will, Wish, Scrying, Shaman w/artifacts on the board, Decree, Slaver, or numerous other things defining the meta.  

Please take into account that I'm not saying that people should definitely play Frantic Search OR not play Time Spiral, but that this so far has proven extremely fruitful in testing.  Please try it, at the very least.



@ skecreatoR - Brain Freeze does extremely well in a Belcher/TPS/Draw7 matchup, which I don't think JDawg13 is refuting.  It's based upon your meta.  If you run into a lot of combo, sure, run them.  However, many of us have a majority meta of control, and have to use those three additional sideboard slots to face whatever our meta will most likely be hitting.

~ Alden ~

Ephraim -
Playing combo I've had the same problem, but I've been fortunate enough to have friends or opponents with either colored dice or glass beads for the tally if I don't have paper.  However, paper's still easy enough.  The others just make it not as cluttered  :lol:
~ Alden ~

After goldfishing/playtesting this deck quite a bit, I'm sold on everything except for the Time Spiral.  Even the people who have included it seem to be using it as a "Good card", but waiting for something better - totally fine if it works for them, but I'd prefer a consistent cantrip over the inconsistent-yet-bigger.  I took out the Spiral and replaced it with the good 'ol Frantic Search.  Why?

- When going off, you usually don't have more than 3/4 lands unless Fastbond is in play.  Hence, Tolarian Academy has just as much fun with this card as with Time Spiral, and anything more usually isn't needed.

- An opening hand or second hand Frantic Search has won me games   much more often than a Time Spiral.  3cc is definitely doable, and with the 6cc of Spiral I would strongly prefer two Draw-7s, Frantic Search + Draw-7, Bargain, Desire, or numerous other things that just have a higher cantrip rate.

- In my testing, Time Spiral was great with Fastbond in play or off a Desire, but wasn't played much of the other time.  Other choices were just too tempting, and highly favorable over the TS.

So, though Frantic Search is no Draw-7, it often resolves (people don't usually counter it, waiting for the Draw-7's or win-now cards), hence netting you back at least part of your mana, digs, and only has a 3cc.  

Perhaps I have to playtest a bit more, but so far, Frantic Search > Time Spiral by far.  Please try this out, and let me know how you guys are feeling about it;)  

Thanks for the input - I'm glad that we're getting such feedback on this deck!  

~ Alden ~

Smmenen - I'm not disagreeing with you on the Swarms, just wondering what you would board out when you want them in.  I've never found it easy to determine.

Thanks about clearing up the Walk issue


Kushluk - Easy spot removal exists in Keeper/Germbus and Landstill (U/W) (and possibliy EBA), but what else without Wishing?  This leaves the following meta:  Tog, GAT, Slaver, MUD (few, but always there), Dragon, U/G Madness, Fish variants, Combo (Belcher/mirror), Food Chain Gobbos, Workshop/Aggro variants, and the few decks that are dying/dead (Oshawa, Mask, Survival, more Aggro.)  

Tog = Counterwall, Deed, and Tog himself.  However, a Dryad can force a Deed pop, pound in the damage you needed due to a not-full stormcount, and if needed, chump block to RFG some of your opponents cards.

GAT - Beatz vs Beatz.  I've never seen a GAT deck with spot removal, so I actually prefer the Dryad in this matchup.  Like in Tog, you can always block the 'tog and RFG some cards  

Control Slaver - Hell if they hit it, but if not, you're safe.  So what's a Dryad doing in here?  Again, this card can easily hit 4+ damage the turn after it comes into play, and since Slaver usually doesn't pack removal, she's golden.  It gives a definite clock whereas with the Draw7s they can try and hold behind a wall of counters or get out a Platinum Angel.  A single Dryad as won the matchup for me before, being more than the Slaver player can deal with at times.

MUD - I haven't had to face this deck in a while, but it seems to always pop up once or twice at tournys, though with personal twists.  Again, no removal = free smacks.  Karn can stop the Dryad for a turn or two, but in a deck with such prision, if you haven't won by the time they're setting up, it'll already be a tough ride.  Dryad does indeed help, however rare you hit this matchup.

Dragon - Let the race begin!  You often just want to face of with a 'who can combo out first?' mentality, but Dryad = clock as always.  If this turns into a later game (which happens time to time since Dragon packs Forces and Duress/Xantids), create a clock with Dryad.  That simple.

U/G Madness - I have never had the chance to face off this this deck, and couldn't find a JP decklist immediately.  But I would guess it's just as effective here in any control/aggro deck where they're not packing removal, but threats.  Dryad > Madness creatures most of the time, with the exception of Wurms or a giddy Mongrel.

Fish variants - Dryad isn't the best thing when they can easily poke it to death, but if you can ever get this up and running early, it's unbelieveable.  However, dead cards don't belong, so you'd want to SB it out for games two and three.

Combo - Race.  This is one of the matches where Dryad is usually a dead card.  Against Belcher I wouldn't even play it, but save the mana for something else.

Food Chain - You try to race this deck, and the only damage I've seen is when/if they board in blasts, in which case you race anyways.  Dryad = first card to board out.  

Workshop/Aggro - It'll always be there.  Aggro variants streamline there way to tournys one way or another, so I'm always prepared to face them.  However, like against most aggro, you just want to run over them with Tendrils.  Dryad usually doesn't even have to be cast.  

Dying/Dead - Combo out like you would usually want to.  Oshawa can get interesting with a Dryad on the board, though.

If a Keeper/Germbus/Landstill/EBA player sees a Dryad (especially one that's doing damage), they have to ponder leaving in removal.  I've played 3x Dryad's SB 1x MD before and game two stumbled into three swords.  Hence, running one MD may leave them with a dead card or two  game two...

Just my $0.02 on the issue.  I'm not saying that it has to be run, nor saying that I'm completely correct, but posting my experiences.  If I'm wrong on any accounts, please let me know - I'm always eager to make a Tendrils deck more compatible with the meta.  And since the majority of the meta I hit includes Slaver, GAT and Hulk, Dryad has almost always been golden.

~ Alden ~

Edit - Yea, I was wrong.  Don't play a MD creature.

I'm new to posting but definitely not new to the 'Drain - I've been playing combo for quite a while, and throughly read every article that tends to come out about them.  Therefore, posts by Smmenen tend to strike my attention for the infamous Draw7;)  
Regardless, I have a few questions about the build posted:

Why do you even bother putting Time Walk/Tendrils of Agony in the Sideboard if you can't Wish for it?  When would you see yourself sideboarding in a Time Walk except with perhaps the Swarms?  And in a matchup where you would want to sideboard in say, five cards, what do you often find yourself boarding out?

Do you often find yourself with Time Spiral in the first couple turns and you're just using it for FoW/Draw7 fodder?  I can see that Desiring into this card would be beyond awesomeness, but do you find yourself that often prefering Time Spiral to say, Frantic Search?

I have also found generally poor results with Swarms up here in the Northeast, where many of my matchups are packing Fire/Ice MD or SB.  Not to mention Fish builds eat them alive, and they're dead against non-control.  Draw7 needs as few "dead cards" as possible to run smoothly, and I have often found Swarms to be exactly that.  

Mock if you may, but I tend to maindeck a single Quirion Dryad.  The 2cc isn't hard at all, often resolves, and just makes a win easier.  The argument as been waged that, if Dryad doesn't hit first turn, it's not anywhere as potent (i.e. the type of "dead card" Draw7 doesn't want.)  In testing and in tourny's, I've found it to be exactly the opposite - Dryad at any point is a threat, and with the speed and rainbow colors of Draw7, she fits.  Give her a single turn and she'll usually swing for at least 4, counting that your combo didn't go off.  A single turn more than that, and you may not need Tendrils.  

If anything, it's another win condition in a deck that isn't running a Wish and is running 4DR.

Mox Diamond I often find to be a good fit too Steve - overall, I think you did a great job at the build and explaining your reasons as to why you chose the appropriate cards.  Keep it up - I eagerly watch for new ideas for combo, which sadly is often destroyed by the heavy Control atmosphere here in New England...

~ Alden ~[/i]

Marco

You have some decent choices if you're looking for budget cards to play in Easter Tendrils, but what you take away in Speed...well...you take away in the likelihood of winning.

Take Stone Calendar for example.  5 open mana to cast is something even T1 powered players have to aim for in combo decks, and with a God hand it's easy, but other than that, hope for turn 2-3.  In budget, things go a little slower, but rely on Rituals largely for that mana.  To place in cards such as Stone Calendar, Transmute Artifact, and Artificer's Intuition, you're placing more mana-hungry cards in an area where you simply don't need them.  They slow you down too badly, and to be competitive, Easter Tendrils has to be fast - something that these cards mentioned just aren't for this deck.

However, the good thing is you're thinking outside the box, and that's how decks reshape and, hopefully, become more competitive:)  However, once/if Night's Whisper find's it's way into Easter Tendrils...what would you think about taking out?  You said major re-working?  Sadly, much of the deck can't really be worked out - at least a dozen eggs, helms, Rituals, mana, not to mention Tendrils, Tutors, and budget brokenness make up a large essential of the deck.  If you change this deck big time, it's a totally new deck - probably just utilizing much of the same engine.  However, if you think up anything, let me know - I'm a combo player at heart, and am eager of new idea's to revive it in area's where control is dominating ::cough cough:: New England ::cough cough::
~ Alden ~