http://is.gd/fwsJx

Let me know where I went wrong.  Since it hit the press I've regretted not discussing Steel Hellkite more, since I like the card and it deserved more discussion.  Anything else?

The deck is fundamentally an Oath deck, this is very true.  Many weaknesses remain weaknesses, just as many strengths have survived my tweaks.  That said, I think Oath is a tier 1 deck, and if you can tweak a tier 1 deck to make it better, you might just win the next tourament. 

Playing vs. Marske this weekend in his native Netherlands, he had 2 Force of Will, a Mana Drain, a gifts ungiven, and 2 other cards in his hand), that's 6 cards in his hand for the mathematically challenged.  He had Library of Alexandria out with 4 other lands as well.  I cast Intution main phase, and it was fairly obvious at this point in the game that I had counters in my hand as well (FoW and/or Pierce), just from the number in my deck and the way the game played out.  Marske chose not to counter the Intution, having never played vs my deck, but having played vs several other decks with Intuition that do things like grab 3 copies of a certain key spell like Oath.  Well, I got Life from the Loam, Strip Mine, and Thoughtseize.  This guaranteed that the Library would not be active next turn no matter what happened, and it allowed me to just dredge Loam every turn until all Marske's lands were gone. 

The little things matter in Vintage, and so does having something the other guy isn't prepared to deal with.  The above anecdote isn't proof that I've improved the list, but all the things this deck can do add up, and the things its given up to get there (Tinker for Robot, etc) aren't all that missed.  If I had a nickel for every time I've tinkered and lost in the last few months, well, I'd have several nickels. 

Thanks for the interest from everyone, I hope my advice to try the deck out and have fun with it at least, is being taken to heart.

I don't view it as a "positioning" issue because the matchup by matchup "decks you tend to be strong against" and "decks you tend to be weak against" are going to look pretty similar.  In other words, this Oath deck doesn't get edge vs Tezz by shaving edge against MUD, or whatever the case may be.  Rather, I think it just plays a little better overall which gives you some edge everywhere.   

Another example: while I find that Intuition improves the deck a great deal, it doesn't help only in some matchups and not in others.  Its just overall going to perform a little better than Jaces 3-4 (or whatever) as you try to assemble and protect Oath against all the decks. 

My first article for StarCity, discussing an Oath deck I built with Intuition, Scroll Rack, Loam, Sun Titan, etc.  Let me know what you think.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/20024_Sun_Titan_Oath.html

(one thing I forgot to mention in article is Library, which I just barely cut for the 3rd Sea, which seemed necessary.

Earlier you wrote:


That's taking it personally.  "What you said doesn't apply to ME, because I'm just that much better than you with the Shop decks." is taking things very personally.  (Its also wrong, you aren't better than me, but I imagine you somehow don't agree so just forget that part of it for now.)  Meanwhile, you haven't refuted a single point I made in my blog post. 

Enjoyed the article.  Except for the chart (being simple and concise is a virtue, not a flaw, when it comes to graphs/charts and articles), for the most part the article was well thought out. 


5 color control (The Deck, for example) has access to much more of the cardpool than UB or UBg tezz, yet that doesn't help you answer the question of which deck is better.  The Deck certainly is more "flexible" in terms of what bullets or cards in general it can add, yet it isn't stronger than Tezz at the moment.  It isn't just Tezz and The Deck of course.  If you posit two new decklists, "access to cards" isn't going to be tremendously helpful in evaluating the decks.  "Number of cards you have access to" reeks of post-hoc explanation rather than useful metric.  You can't apply it prospectively in a novel context, you can only look at two decks, decide which one is better (independently of how many cards it has "access to"), and then observe that the better deck had access to more cards (which won't always be true, but you might just not be looking at the false cases, like Tezz vs The Deck, and thus think the metric is valuable). 

What portion of the cardpool a deck has access to doesn't strike me as a useful metric.

My article wasn't a personal attack on Workshop players, dude.  I always keep a Shop deck handy and I enjoy playing it myself.  I've played various versions, some 5c Stax, some MUD.  Some stock lists, right from a recent top 8, many with my own tweaks.  I explained why even though I think Shop decks are powerful, I wouldn't have played one at GenCon. 

Get over taking this stuff personally, and maybe you can start thinking rationally about your deck. 

Its not that hate exists.  As described in detail in the blog post, its the combination of hate existing and the fact that people know about your deck's popularity and WANT to beat it.  Its about having a field of players that are both willing and able to hate you out.  Willing means motivated to play those hate cards, like maindeck trygons, and able meaning those cards exist.  It isn't JUST one or the other, its both that makes Shops a bad choice.

Shop decks making the top8 or top4 doesn't mean the archetype was well positioned.  The matchup vs Owen/Bob is a bad matchup, and you were going to have to get through one or both of them to win the Sapphire trophy. 

Classic "I'll just play better to compensate for a poor deck choice" rationalization.  You can't just play tighter and beat a turn 1 Bob turn 2 Trygon, sometimes it just gets you.  No matter what deck I'm playing I intend to play it well, but that doesn't mean the deck selection decision is meaningless or somehow takes a back seat to my play skill.  Where do you gather that I'm afraid I can't play whichever Shop deck I choose correctly? 

It isnt "better" to play control.   Here is what I'm saying: you don't have to play a non-linear strategy, but if you do play a linear strategy, make sure one of these conditions is satisfied, 1) people are unprepared to defend themselves against that attack and/or
2) your deck is so strong along that angle of attack that even prepared opponents will not fare that well against you.

There will be tournaments where Shops is the right deck to play, GenCon wasn't one of them, and its because people expected Shops and the tools to be prepared are available.

Having to switch decks is a stong DISincentive to come prepared for deckX, meaning people don't like to switch decks, while the fact that adding 3-7 cards can swing a matchup vs MUD is a strong INCENTIVE to add those cards.  Its a matter of degree, I'm obviously not taking the position that TPS is an unbeatable strategy.  Sometimes by virtue of a format's diversity, you don't have those 3-7 slots or whatever it takes to devote to MUD, that's fine, that's an example of people being underprepared.  There is something different about MUD and Dredge (linear, one attack angle decks) than the blue decks.  I'm trying to explain that difference to people.

Here is an article I just posted to my Blog.  It was enough of a departure from the existing discussion of Chapin's article (and lengthy enough) to deserve a separate post and thread.  Let me know what you think.  Thanks.

http://sperlinggrove.blogspot.com/2010/08/why-mud-is-bad-angles-of-attack.html

I thought your article "How to build a Tezz deck that can't beat TPS" was really good.  Keep up the good work Stephen!  Wait, that wasn't the title? 

TPS is good vs Trygon/Ochoa/OwenTezz, expect it to return to the metagame in force.  As blue decks go, this one is laughably bad vs TPS.  I guess its nothing the ONE mindbreak trap in the sb can't fix......

I'll have to miss this due to GP Portland, but its good to see so cal Vintage expanding.  Good luck with the event.

I think Goyf is underplayed right now in these types of decks.  Considering him for the sideboard?

The ggslive replays suggest otherwise.  That was my whole point.  Also, everyone talks legacy expert this, legacy expert that, and yet a pro has won every single legacy GP ever played.

This play seems fine to me.  Trading imperial seal + the chance of drawing Time Twister for a brainstorm is reasonable.  I do have to point out, howver, that "or possibly leaving a land on top of my deck" isn't one of the things Jace does that's harmful.  When Jace "leaves" something on top of your deck, it feels like he is forcing you to draw it, but in reality he hasn't done anything at all.  The proof here is that whether you needle Jace or let them fateseal you, if the top card of your deck is a land, you're drawing a land.  What Jace DOES do is make you draw a land when the top of your library is [good card] then [land].  By putting the good card on bottom, it changes your draw step.  Kind of a nitpick but it is important to understand what Jace does I suppose.

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE-POST

There's around 50 people in the world with a rating of 2100 or greater, so I doubt it's that frequent that your friend battles one of them ("one of us" I should say [/end sick brags]) in eternal formats, but that's beside the point.  Its very difficult to be good at high level events, which again, is both skill and pressure testing, without practice at it.  You don't have to be a pro to be good, but you can still draw conclusions about a field of players by how many pros are in it.  The one or two possible exceptions in that field won't change the validity of your observations about the field as a whole.  

(also, it costs $25-30 to qualify for the pro tour in any of the many Sealed Deck PTQs held each year)

It wasn't just Owen's matches.  Maher's semifinals MUD opponent played very poorly.  What I want to ask is why you would have expected anything different?  There were only a small number of professional players in the tournament.  Expecting a high level of technical ability, as well as being able to remain focused when the stakes are high, from someone just by virtue of them being "familiar with vintage" or "an active member of the vintage community" isn't reasonable or fair to them.  

Remember, "Trygon-Jace-Control" isn't the 2010 Vintage Champion, Owen Turtenwald is.  Menendian, with his graphs and tables of "data" constantly confuses the two.  "Vault" and "Drain" don't win events, but often the better players in a room are wielding these cards, and do win.  

Watching the ggslive coverage of the top 8 of Vintage Champs was great, it showed how difficult it is to play Vintage at the highest level.  I'm sure Owen will respond to "how many matches were determined by mistakes" with "I can't be certain (you rarely get to see the opponent's mulligan decision, etc.), but several."

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/owens-a-win-taking-home-the-trophypainting-at-gencon/

Detailed and funny report.  Addresses some of the commentary from TMD about his deck, and explains some suggested tweaks going forward.  A must read really for Vintage players.

I don't think Vindicate is too slow for Legacy though.  Speed for the effect is key, O Ring is too slow for the effect it provides.  As another example, Jace is certainly slower than both Vindicate and O Ring but better than both in Legacy and Vintage.   And another thing is that Vindicate might actually be too slow for my vintage deck, its currently (along with Repeal) the 59th or 60th best card in that list, so who knows.  Glad you liked the article.

Just being silly.  I've never met you and don't actually harbor any bad feelings towards you, its just low hanging fruit (visible and polarizing personality in the eternal community) as I attempt to add some humor to my eternal articles.  Glad you found the article decent.

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/rule-of-law-haunted-but-encouraged/

This is my "report" from GP Columbus.  At the end I present what I would have played at GenCon if I didn't cancel my flight out there.  I briefly make the case for Vintage, since that can't be done enough. 

A more traditional 2x Tezzeret with no creatures other than inkwell.

Keep, Lotus Pearl Go. 

Force first threat (lodestone and spheres arent threats here) and emergency drain if they put together 2x null rod or rod and chalice 2 or tangle wire then null rod. 

Very nice report.  We're hoping to make vintage at shuffle and cut a monthly event, picking one sunday a month (maybe the first sunday of every month?) to hold it.  Appreciate you showing up and expressing interest in future events.  It was awesome to have players I haven't played with before not only show up, but show up with good decks and interesting decks! 

Tezzeret into Top when I knew you had a Nature's Claim in hand saved me, but I was also lucky to top, see nothing, shuffle, and then top into Drain Drain Force. 

REB/pyro is definitely awesome against my deck, and useful elsewhere, so I agree fitting them in would help.  I want to splash red myself but for now I'm trying to keep a manabase thats somewhat resiliant to wasteland.   

See you at future events, and if you ever feel like trekking to one of the nor cal events with Phil and myself, lemme know.

 

Chris (Oath) beat Rob (Grow/Fish) in semis.

Sperling (really nice guy, playing tezz) beat Chris (Oath) in finals. 

The field was 1 dredge, 1 hermit druid, 1 oath, 1 5cstax, 1 MUD, 2 BobTezz, 1 BoblessTezz, 1 Ad Nauseum, 1Grow, 1NobleFish

Pretty diverse field for an 11 man.  I got the bye round 1, then lost to MUD, then beat 5xStax, then Beat Fish.  Top 4 I beat MUD, then Oath.  I was the Bobless Tezz. 

started new thread here for my event this weekend:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40858.0

Shuffle and Cut Games - shuffleandcut.com
Suite 305, 2121 East Lambert Road, La Habra - (562) 694-9500

EDIT: 1pm not 12, STORE OPENS AT NOON.

Here's the deal.  I'll be there, others from so cal will be there, and we'll be looking to play some vintage.  Try and arrive before 1pm, and IF we have enough people interested in a tournament, we'll run one with 15 proxies allowed @ 1pm.  I expect that there will be enough (8 or more) to run a tournament, but I don't want to make any promises on such short notice.  

Again, that's 12pm **1pm**, at the address above, for a tournament if 8 or more show up, or just some casual battling if less than 8.

If the number of players is such that I can put up an Ancestral Recall and lose less than $50 or so (yes, I'm willing to lose money on it if that makes the tourney better for everyone), I will put up a Recall for 1st.  If players prefer (or not enough show) to just do store credit for the winner(s), we can do that.

This sunday is the timeframe I had in mind.  I really wanted to battle and there are GPs/Gencon/PT coming up that will prevent myself and others like web and lsv from playing in the next 4-5 weeks. 

I have a venue to host now, if I get enough interest, I can put on a tourney this Sunday for an ancestral recall.