Thanks for the answer, glad to see it's such a sensible rule.

Olivier Ruel, in his SCG premium article on from Tuesday, suggested that on MTGO it's worth floating extra mana when casting spells into order to confuse your opponent into a mistake when you are playing against Mana Leak and the like. Is this a trick we have to watch out for offline too, or would it be frowned upon in a paper tournament?

A concrete situation:

Alan has 8 untapped basic lands in play. Betty has 1U untapped and a Mana Leak in hand.
Alan taps 6 of his lands and announces Baneslayer Angel, leaving one mana floating but not explicitly saying so.
Betty looks at Alan's board, sees that he only has two mana untapped, and casts Mana Leak targetting the Baneslayer. Alan lets the Mana Leak resolve and pays the three mana, using two from untapped lands and the one he had floating.

Betty calls a judge; she feels aggrieved because Alan was clearly trying to mislead her. Alan argues that everything he did was totally within the rules and Betty should have been paying attention.

What happens next? How would you approach this?

(Mana Leak: 1U, counter target spell unless its controller pays 3 mana, Baneslayer costs 5 mana to play)

Vangue memory:

Someone (probably Smemmen) had taken a known deck (Drain Slaver?), cut some random cards, added four Brainstorms, renamed it 'Meandeck Slaver', and started talking about how it was a fundamental redesign of the whole thing.

Also, wouldn't it make sense to merge the Newbie and Introductions forums, seeing as they are essentially the same thing?

I like the idea, but I feel that the new layout involves a few too many clicks. There are only so many active threads at a time, and when they are spread over a lot of different boards it means a lot more page loads to keep track of everything when we used to be able to see almost everything on one page. It's better for focussed discussion, but worse for people who are just browsing.

Also, the old Legacy forums seem to have gone AWOL from the archives.

Well, this at instant speed would be strictly better than Opt, which is not a bad card in itself.

It's still very respectable at sorcery speed.

Preordain is really good. Better than Serum Visions, I think. Chandra's Spitfire is also pretty interesting.


EDIT: What about Chandra's Spitfire + Gelectrode? That's just murderous.

What's a donk-Brainstorm?

But the people you were stomping probably didn't really want to be tournament-level players. They just wanted to have a fun time with their favourite old decks, and resented you for turning up with tuned Vintage monstrosities and making them look stupid. Sure, you've paid for your power, but if you have nobody to play against you may as well not have it.

Like it or not, if you want to get people interested you've got to give them something to pique their interest. That takes time, and yes, it will probably mean you putting away some of your power cards for a while, so your opponents aren't suffering through watching someone with $2000 worth of deck grind out ridiculous blowout victories every game. If you ever try it again, then I would urge you to suck it up and put the power cards away. By all means play a strong deck, but try to make sure that your opponents don't feel like they are wasting their time.

Fair enough, I can understand that. I'm as much interested in the kinds of thing that would you be looking for when you talk to the players, and what resolutions you would consider. Would you be able to comment on that?

Thanks,

(Just so you know, this doesn't relate to a recent incident, and it wasn't a big issue for anyone concerned. It's loosely based on something that happened to me several years ago in an informal limited event, with me in Arnold's position)

1)
Arnold has 3 vanilla 3/3s in play and is on 8 life. He uses a notepad to keep track of both players' life totals.
Betty has 2 vanilla 4/4s in play. She uses a dice to keep track of her own life total.

Neither player has any cards in hand and nothing relevant in their graveyards.

Arnold attacks Betty with all of his 3/3s. Before blockers are declared, a dispute breaks out about Betty's life total. Arnold has it recorded as 3 on his notepad, while Betty's dice says 6. A judge is called.

Arnold doesn't have a terribly clear picture of how his opponent got to 3 life (his pad has a series of 3-point deductions from Betty's life total over a few turns) but stands by his own record, saying he thinks Betty might have forgotten to record the life loss from an attack.

Betty has a relatively clear verbal account of the game, and insists her opponent must have accidentally double-recorded the damage from a previous attack.

The outcome of the game hinges on this decision. Which value of Betty's life would you accept as true?

Would your ruling change if attackers had not been declared yet?

2)
Exactly the same as above except:
Betty has an additional 2/2 creature in play.
Blockers have been declared, and Betty has chosen to block a 3/3 with each 4/4, and leave one 3/3 unblocked.


Extra:
Would anything change in either situation if either or both players had a few cards in hand (say two)?
Would anything depend on any personal knowledge you might have of the two players?
Would the REL of the tournament factor into your treatment of the situation?


(EDIT: Betty's account was verbal)

(Inspired by BDM, I'm trying out a silly Kiln Fiend/Wee Dragonauts/Distortion Strike deck. By habit, I put my lands at the top in the MWS window)


<FL Studio> please dont play backwards
It is now turn 3 (FL Studio)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
FL Studio untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
FL Studio draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
<Nazdakka> ?
<FL Studio> land goes behind the creatures
FL Studio plays Auntie's Hovel from Hand
FL Studio taps Auntie's Hovel
<Nazdakka> I play this way, thanks.
It is now the Combat Phase, Beginning Of Combat Step
It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
<FL Studio> please play the right way
<FL Studio> its annoying otherwise
FL Studio taps Prickly Boggart
FL Studio taps Prickly Boggart
<Nazdakka> There is no right way. I like playing this way.
Nazdakka's life total is now 19 (-1)
<FL Studio> there is a right way
<FL Studio> and you aren't playing accordingly
<FL Studio> you need to review the game format, if that is what you believe
<Nazdakka> Does this really matter?
<FL Studio> please put your land where land goes
<Nazdakka> I like it this way. Sorry if you don't like it.
<FL Studio> i'm sorry you like it that way
<Nazdakka> Do you want to play or not?
<FL Studio> follow the rules
<Nazdakka> Show me this rule.
<FL Studio> last time im going to say it
<FL Studio> please play
<FL Studio> the correct way
<Nazdakka> It's your turn.
<FL Studio> im waiting
<FL Studio> you are now disqualified
<FL Studio> ignorant puke
<System> Player Lost

Seriously?

For this effect, 5-6 mana is probably 'fair', while 4 is pretty strong but not outside the realms of probability. I know, it seems low given Ivory Mask is 2WW, but that card is pretty expensive for what it is. Would be nice if there was more going on with the card beyond 'colourless Ivory Mask' though.

How about this as a way of achieving the same thing while doing something a bit more exciting?

Sphere of Protection
2
Artifact
Spells that target you cost 2 more to play.

If you want to keep it so that you can't use it like a Warchief to give things haste, just say 'target goblin you don't control'.

Yeah, you're right there. Blink lets it block and then blink to avoid damage, but that's about it. Make it '0: Exile ~this~ until end of turn, then return it' instead. With respect to costing I think it's probably OK at WWW - remember trample will still work - but if people aren't sure then it could easily go to 1WWW, 2WW or similar.


So it's immune to a sacrifice caused by Diabolic Edict, but not to being sarcificed as a cost to play Nantuko Husk's ability? That's downright wierd. It will also be non-obvious to newer players that it's immune to Lightning Bolt, even though it is.

I guess my main objection to this card is from a development standpoint - I don't think that either your version (with the replacement ability) or the original would be interesting enough to play with to justify making players understand all the nuances of how it works. We can get 90% of the functionality using existing rules technology (some combination of indestructible, shroud, flicker, etc.), but to get the final 10% we have to invoke a very wierd and non-obvious corner of the rulebook. Sure, it could probably be fixed with an enormous pile of reminder text, but that's also far from ideal.

I don't think that would be wise. How lucky or otherwise you were during a tournament doesn't really matter, so there's no reason to spent mental energy worrying about it. Sure, if you kept track of everything that went wrong you can tell better bad beat stories, but that's not really helping you


If I made a mistake during a game and went on to lose the game, I view that mistake as having cost me the game, regardless of whatever factors are involved. Yes, this is probably not true in many cases - games will happen from time to time that for whatever reason, you just can't win. But concentrating on my own play means I'm worrying about the things I can control, not about what a bitch Lady Luck is.

Of course, you can take this too far. You can, sometimes, do the right thing and still lose. I remember selling someone a spare Lorwyn booster I had in my bag for ~£2.50. He opens it, and whaddya know, the rare is a foil Thoughtseize. Was it a mistake to sell him that pack? I'd have got a much better result by opening it, obviously, but there was no way I could have known that beforehand, so I didn't make a mistake.

The original card probably wouldn't work within the rules, and combos both spectacularly and dangerously with anything that lets you sacrifice creatures for some useful effect.

I'm really not sure what Delha's version does in practice. What do you mean by 'effect'? I think that word should be 'ability'. If so, I think the card works, although it still has plenty of wierd interactions that will confuse a lot of people. My reading is that it would die to combat damage, toughness reduction, sacrifice and direct damage, but not Wrath of God, Terror, or Seal of Doom, which is really wierd. Is it worth the confusion?

Zeus-Online's version works within the rules and is fairly costed. However, the abilities seem really redundant - the card feels like it either wants to be indestructible or have the graveyard ability, not both. A case where the whole is less than the sum of its parts. Nothing scary from a power perspective, however.

Also, if you want to do this more simply, maybe something like:

Divine Messenger
WWW
Creature - Angel
Flying, Shroud
0: Exile Divine Messenger then return it to play.
1/1

You could also use an Astral Slide-style ability instead of a Flicker ability if you want it to dodge Wrath. This version also gives you infinite Enters the Battlefield triggers if you have something appropriate in play - Pandemonium?

This is only true if you are getting a card with a specific property (a land, a creature, a snail with converted mana cost 7 or greater, etc.). If the card is like Demonic Tutor and simply says 'search your library for a card', you have to find something.

In this case, however, the fetchlands are looking for a card with specific properties (land card with a given basic land type), so you can fail to find.

Seems to me that if Time Stop worked, this should work too.

Sorry, but you just can't make Welder tokens. That's just a non-starter for various reasons (complexity, power, etc.).



I think this version is essentially OK. Is there anything genuinely gamebreaking in Standard or Extended that you can get? Onslaught has rotated out of Extended, taking most of the really scary Goblins with it, and even if you do have something spectacular to get, this is still a 1/1 that gets summoning sickness, plus three cards is a lot. We could bump up the card's mana cost to 2-3 though, if we want to be cautious.

It seems that everyone has a different take on how to get the new Eldrazi monstrocities into play. Some go for green and/or red-based mana ramping, some produce a ton of Eldrazi Spawn tokens, some try to sneak them into play using Polymorph or Oath, some again use the instant-speed loophole in their anti-reanimation clauses.

Me?

My current idea is to go mono-brown and use some of the massive amounts of mana you can get from artifacts. To whit:

'Ramping like it's the year 2000'
Casual Legacy

4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Miren, the Moaning Well
3 Blasted Landscape

1 Duplicant
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Spawnsire of Ulamog
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Platinum Angel
4 Epochrasite
4 Bottle Gnomes

4 All is Dust
4 Expedition Map
4 Sun Droplet
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Staff of Domination

SB:
Any spare Eldrazi I have lying around for the Spawnsire to get. At least one Emrakul, ideally three, plus enough random other Eldrazi to ensure that the game ends in the extra turn(s).

Some defense is necessary, hence Epochrasite, Bottle Gnomes, All is Dust and Sun Droplet. You can't just focus everything on ramping or even a slow creature deck will run you over. Staff of Domination is there as a hugely flexible alternative mana sink - anything you need, it can provide it.

One possibility is that Cloudposts might be a better options for serious mana-production. They would give some more room for utility lands, but the options aren't spectacular - I guess, given that I don't have access to Maze of Ith or Tabernacle, that it would be some mixture of Wasteland, Quicksand, random manlands, Scorched Ruins and the like. Another option would be some number of Everflowing Chalices to supplament the Thran Dynamos. One other mana-related consideration is that I'm putting a lot of work on the shoulders of 4 Expedition maps - I need them to both assemble the Urzatron and find Eye of Ugin so I can tutor for fatties.

I'm also not sure on the ratio of fatties/mana sinks to mana and to defense. Currently I have 18 cards primarily for defense (Epochrasite, Bottle Gnomes, All is Dust, Platinum Angel, Duplicant and Sun Droplet), 9 mana sinks (4 Eldrazi, Staff, and Eye of Ugin's tutoring), and 35 cards that are concerned with mana production. Eye of Ugin and Staff both provide permenant ways of sinking large amounts of excess mana, but that's only 5 cards.

Emrakul is, by a mile, the best Eldrazi if I can get it to hit play. The extra turn is huge, as he always gets to swing, and when he does the game is almost always over. The other Eldrazi aren't quite as conclusive, unless I get to 20 mana and activate Spawnsire of Ulamog's ability. I've considered cutting back on the other Eldrazi for another Emrakul or two... but they both provide a cheaper option and some utility if fetched with Eye.

As a final note, if this deck REALLY gets going, some trully outrageous things can happen. 24 mana with Eye of Ugin and Miren in play equals infinite turns by finding Emrakul for 7 with Eye, casting it for 13, then next turn attacking then saccing it to Miren, finding it with Eye and looping around again. Spawnsire's 20 mana ability should always win the game because it casts the cards you get, so allowing you to gain lots of extra turns with multiple Emrakuls. Both of these may sound like overkill, but if you have several players to kill they could potentially eliminate a lot of potential risks.




So... how are you planning to get the Eldrazi into play?

Excellent concept, execution is good but not perfect.

- Should be a sorcery. Discard almost always is; it avoids rules problems where someone who doesn't know the rules too well tries to make their opponent discard a card 'in response' to their opponent casting that card, and also irritating situations where a player with an empty hand draws their card for the turn, but is immediately forced to discard it before they can do anything.

- Not sure about the kicker. The card works just fine without it, which says to me that maybe it could be removed in the name of elegance, but the kicker is a nice extra layer. Maybe this is a case where you can generate two cards from one idea by doing simple version (B, 3 cards), and then extending it by adding a kicker (B, kicker 1, 4 cards/2 cards)?

I've never seen Slivers work particularly well in multiplayer. I've seen lots of people try for the sort of deck you are going for, what tends to happen is that they build up a really impressive board of Slivers, and then either they get ganged up on by the rest of the table because their board looks so scary, or someone wraths and they're left with nothing. You need to figure out a way to give the deck some endurance, and perhaps slow-roll your threats to avoid looking too scary.

Some stuff to think about:

Patriach's Bidding is a really good way of recovering from Wrath effects - it depends a little on how many tribal decks you see in your group, but you'll usually end up a long way ahead. Living Death can do a similar job.
Wild Pair can be very impressive in a Sliver deck. It requires your deck to be largely built around it, but you can get some amazing turns from it.
Frenetic Sliver is very handy for keeping your army alive.
Harmonic Sliver is great utility. Having a way of breaking up other people's combos can be gamesaving.

Therapy/Rector is also covered in that article. It's viewed as different, because you can potentially gain an advantage by searching after seeing his hand (you could get a different enchantment, or if you were getting Bargain and you saw that he had Krosan Grip, you'd know that you'd need to put as many Bargain activations as you want on the stack rather than drawing 1 at a time).

I think the complexity you get in Vintage and the complexity in Lorwyn limited (and by extension, Lorwyn casual constructed) were two different beasts. Lorwyn limited, as I recall, tended to produce highly complex board states, with lots of different interacting parts. There was so much going on with all the tribal stuff and the changelings that it was quite easy to miss on-table tricks, and nothing makes you feel like an idiot like missing something that's right there in front of you.

eg.
A: 'Start of my upkeep, Waterspout Weavers reveals Faerie Harbinger, it gains flying because they are both wizards.'

B: 'Ok'

A: 'Draw, attack with the Weavers'

B: 'Block with my Boggart Sprite-Chaser.'

A: 'Whuh?'

B: 'It has flying because Skeletal Changeling is a Faerie'

A: 'Oh yeah. Your guy dies?'

B: 'No, because Mad Auntie gives all goblins +1/+1'.

A: '...crap.'


You don't get that kind of thing in Vintage. The complexity there comes from the fact that you're playing very broken almost-highlander decks, and there are a very large number of possibilities arising from any given play. You can mistakes, sure, but they tend to be easier to hide, like putting the wrong card on top with Brainstorm or whatever.

Nature's Call
3GG
Instant - Trap
If an opponent has been more than 3 feet from his or her library for more than 1 minute during this turn or the last, you may pay G rather than Nature's Call's mana cost.
Search your library for up to two creature cards, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

Remember to wash your hands.

...

Okay, so WoTC probably wouldn't print this. Would we?


Current wording:

Nature's Call
3GG
Instant - Trap
If an opponent has been more than 3 feet from his or her library for more than 1 minute during this turn or the last, you may pay G rather than Nature's Call's mana cost.
Search your library for up to two creature cards, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

Remember to wash your hands.

If this saw print, in 1v1 this versus Naturalise would be a format-specific call. If you care about killing Planeswalkers significantly more than you care about killing artifact creatures, you use this, otherwise you use Naturalise.

This was partially inspired by the difficulty of killing planeswalkers in multiplayer formats - there just aren't many simple ways of just making them go away. It's very frustrating getting wrecked by Ajani or whatever while sitting with a hand full of ways of dealing with normal problem permanents (Naturalise, Nantuko Vigilante, etc.). Artifact creatures are less of a worry because they are still creatures, so have plenty of ways of getting caught in the usual multiplayer crossfire, but there really aren't that many ways of just killing a planeswalker. I'd certainly use this over Naturalise in some of my multiplayer decks

Nature's Grip
1G
Sorcery
Destroy target nonland, noncreature permanent.

Probably too boring to generate much discussion, but I bet Wizards are going to do it soon



Current Wording:

Nature's Grip
1G
Sorcery
Destroy target nonland, noncreature permanent.

FlyFlySideOfFry is right. A 0 mana artifact you can play from your sideboard is just plain broken. Even in environments where you can't do Arcane Denial tricks, I'm sure 4 free permenants could be used for something. There's also the benefit that you could very possibly do something clever by using it a bit like Hermit Druid to dump your entire library.


I'm afraid this has already been done: Rites of Spring.


Agreed. This card would fundamentally change the game of Magic.

I wouldn't be too suprised to see Seal reprinted, either in a FtV-style boxed set or a mass-produced base set. It's a simple, clean card that fits well for black's flavour.

With respect to power level, I know it's banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage, but that doesn't necessarily mean it would be problematic in smaller formats. Tutoring is a mechanic that grows in power depending on what it can search for, and bombs of the order of Yawgmoth's Will, Time Vault and Tinker just don't exist in Standard or Extended.