@RavenFire:

Derf. Ya. Whoops.

@kuwv:

Well, vs Belcher combo, it's pretty damn good. Also, most 4cc decks I've played have been running Crucible of Worlds... this is a pretty good way to combat it. The only pro Oxidize has over the Magus is that Magus can be StPed/Fired/Etc'd, but there is no red Oxidize and Magus's strength vs Workshops more than makes up for that imo.

Magus of the Unseen, although inferior at taking care of moxen (which Null Rod already does), is better than Vandal or Mox Monkey for several reasons:

#1: Magus of the Unseen takes care of artifacts reliably through many situations. Vandal doesnt work if they have a blocker and Gorilla Shaman can't take out 2cc+ artifacts unless you have a lot of mana. Now, I know that if we are dealing with a Trinisphere or a Chalice of the Void, Magus of the Unseen lacks in potency. However, Shamans can't take care of those either and Goblin Vandal only works against those some of the time.

#2: Magus of the Unseen is good against Workshop Aggro, whereas Vandal and Monkey are not. Goblin Vandal won't get hits in that often when they can drop quick fat, and Mox Monkey is completely useless at taking out fat creatures. Magus is excellent at stealing and using Workshop Aggro's creatures against them. Magus can't really steal Triskelion unless you have Null Rod, but all of these creatures are equally unable to deal with Triskelion unless you have Null Rod. Basically, Magus is better there.

#3: Crucible of Worlds, one of the most powerful cards in the metagame as of right now, can really screw you over. If you have it, it can really screw your opponent over. Magus of the Unseen here acts as both an Oxidize and a Crucible of Worlds, taking the enormous advantage that comes with having a Crucible out. Goblin Vandal only destroys Crucible sometimes, and Mox Monkey doesnt even destroy it at all, unless you've managed to accumulate 7 mana.

I recently switched back from UG Fish to UR Fish after having a slight revelation that Magus of the Unseen was a bit better than Oxidize because it not only deals with but steals artifact fat, Crucibles, and other random artifacts. And because Old Man of the Sea gives Ur a good answer to Suq'Ata Firewalker. And because UG Fish lacks a good answer to Propaganda and Back to Basics like REB. This is my list, its a bit wierd but its been working well. I haven't been able to test vs Mono U yet, but I've tested against stax, artifact aggro, and slaver with a few matches against the mirror and its worked pretty well so far.

SB:  2 Rack and Ruin
SB:  2 Suq'Ata Firewalker
SB:  2 Misdirection
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Crucible of Worlds
SB:  2 Energy Flux
SB:  2 Maze of Ith
SB:  1 Null Rod
        3 Flooded Strand
        4 Volcanic Island
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Polluted Delta
        1 Mox Sapphire
        2 Island
        2 Faerie Conclave
        4 Mishra's Factory
        3 Null Rod
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        4 Curiosity
        4 Standstill
        4 Force of Will
        4 Spiketail Hatchling
        2 Daze
        2 Old Man of the Sea
        4 Cloud of Faeries
        1 Crucible of Worlds
        2 Magus of the Unseen
        4 Grim Lavamancer

I still need more testing as to whether Suq'Ata Firewalker will still dominate the mirror as it did with UG now that Old Man of the Sea is starting to be used. So far I haven't played anyone running it MD or SB, but I have a feeling I will soon.

But the main point is Magus of the Unseen. This guy is good. One situation that often comes up is where I steal a fattie at their beginning of combat and make it trade with a Juggernaut. 2 for 0s pwn. Stealing Crucibles is pretty nice too. Even if your opponent doesn't run too many artifacts, its still never completely dead, as it can steal a mox if you're attempting to manascrew your opponent or it can steal a powder keg and possibly destroy a Morphling (if you're lucky). I haven't tested vs monoU yet with this deck though, because I could only find one person using it and I got savagely owned (well, 1-2) a few times using UG Fish.

Anyway, please tell me what you think of Magus of the Unseen in UR Fish.

VERY nice article. We need the laymen who don't read Starcity to understand that Type 1 is not a mythical format of turn 1 kills and all p9 decks...anymore

yeah, thats why im not running witnesses, and, for the sake of the deck's fishiness, i should definitely cut 1 firewalker for another Spiketail and maybe run a 3rd Firewalker in the SB.

As for the aggro matchup, I really think this does better. Regeneration IS really good, because River Boa, virtual card advantagewise, can be a 2-3-4 for 1, because its kind of stupid to attack into a River Boa unless you are able to kill it after it blocks with a removal spell or unless you can kill the Fish player outright in the process. Even if they do have to waste a removal spell, thats a 2 for 1. And fish needs all the help it can get vs aggro. Drop of Honey adds a lot to Fish as well, since its a cheap, quick option for taking out big and hard to deal with creatures. When we are playing against artifact aggro, Oxidize can deal with big creatures very fast and Magus of the Unseen (which Ur Fish might want to run as well) is quite useful.

Good job mindtone! Sorry about the bad luck with matchups though Artifact Aggro is indeed pretty hellish for Fish, since 99% of it is pure Fish hate. Loading up on anti hate has stolen me a few matches, but I usually end up losing 1-2

This thread has sparked some pretty good discussion imo, I took a break to A. Go on vacation, and B. Test some more.

This is my current list:

5 Fetchlands
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Yavimaya Coast

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 River Boa
3 Spiketail Hatchling (heresy!)
3 Suq'Ata Firewalker

4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Curiosity
2 Daze
2 Oxidize
3 Null Rod
1 Regrowth
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

SB:
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Maze of Ith
2 Magus of the Unseen
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Drop of Honey
2 Energy Flux
1 Oxidize
1 Stifle
1 Null Rod

Comments: 3 Spiketail Hatchling. Ya. I know. However, I HAD to fit Oxidize in. Crucible is a gamebreaker no matter whose side its on, and the ability to destroy Crucible added to the fact that Oxidize is almost never dead anyway makes Oxidize a must in the MD. Jacob is 10000% right there. Perhaps a Daze should be cut instead.

Blue Elemental Blast is a nice card in the sideboard... although its not as powerful as Grim Lavamancer, it takes care of Welders pretty nicely. It also has the added bonus of destroying Blood Moon. There's been a lot more Fish hate than usual recently... curse you PTW and Smemnen.

Magus of the Unseen is very very fun vs Workshop Aggro. Its by no means new tech but its more useful now than ever imo.

Crucible of Worlds continues to be disgustingly great vs control. I have won several matches that I thought I had lost because I topdecked Crucible and denied 4cc control of white after he managed to force through an Angel.

As for the matchup vs 4cc control, its been going pretty well. Its kind of like playing vs old Keeper except that their Morphlings are a lot more dangerous and Rootwater Thief can't save us. Crucibles have been amazing after game 1, and I'm fooling around with sbing in Maze of Ith.

Crucible is so powerful in this format that it might warrant maindecking. Space is hard to find though, but I would like to test it MD because its a nice card to have vs Control, Fish, and even Workshop.

Although double blue is not usually a problem, Grim Lavamancer is indeed better for taking out Welders. Suq'Ata is a lot slower, but even so, UG Fish still has a very very strong workshop matchup.

Gandalf, I'm not running Witnesses, I'm just testing them. There are alot of drawbacks, and I don't think I will run them. However, they have promise and I am testing them. Just wanna clear that up

I'm not so sure. I know that the GG cc is really a bizznatch, but, like regrowth, we won't be planning to play it on Turn 2/3. It would most likely be a turn 5 play or even later. However, the fact that it lacks synergy with the rest of the deck is kind of annoying. However, Regrowth has been incredibly powerful, and Witness is just as powerful. Yes, the GG casting cost may make it uncastable, but 3 mana is not too much for a type of effect that I will never use before turn 5. Testing will show whether getting GG is feasible by then. I just like it because it is card advantage and board advantage all in one. All I'm saying here is to not bash it until you test it.

@Ineffable:

By loses to aggro, what do you mean? If you mean loses to UG Madness, you're sort of right, and if i expect a 100% metagame of that I will start playing Waterfront Bouncer and Gilded Drake again. And even without those cards, you would be surprised at how much a card like Drop of Honey helps. I would consider UG fish to have a better aggro matchup in most cases because of River Boa and Drop of Honey. The aggro decks I am worried about are largely unaffected by Grim Lavamancer. Unless you are talking about Food Chain Goblins, which is a near-unwinnable matchup for UR Fish too. Artifact aggro decks? Heh. I'll admit UR Fish has a better Suicide Black matchup...   This deck pwns artifact aggro decks more efficiently than UR Fish because it has Oxidize AND Drop of Honey, which happens to take out the welders that can make Rack and Ruin useless as well. Drop of Honey accomplishes what Grim Lavamancer and Rack and Ruin do together, which is why it's such a bomb. Its tier one so stfu test and come back with results. I'm serious.

Just a note: I'm starting to test Eternal Witness, as Regrowth has been incredible. So far looking disgusting. If anyone else has tried these, let us know how they've been working.

What I've done is -1 Firewalker, -1 Daze, -1 Faerie Conclave, +2 Eternal Witness, +1 Treetop Village. Let me know if you think this is blasphemy or you have a better idea of what to swap.

Yeah, although rack is somewhat better against Slaver, Oxidize is just really damn fast, and if you play in a Stax/Welder Mud metagame where 3 mana is an ordeal to get, it can destroy incredibly annoying early Smokestacks/Tangle Wires/Chalices for 2, provided you can counter any Trinispheres.

I've been testing the Crucible vs the mirror, Landstill, Tog, 4c control, and even workshop decks, and it has been working out really well so far. The sheer ability to Wasteland every turn in the middle of the game when you already have enough mana is huge... the only game I've lost from that situation is where my opponent dropped Blood Moon the turn after.

In my opinion, cutting the Standstill/cloud/conclave thing was a huge mistake. Notice how its done better with standstills. Although its true Gay/r can sometimes abuse standstill just a tiny bit better (Turn 1 lavamancer Turn 2 standstill almost guaruntees board advantage), the difference between the decks' abilities to abuse Standstill is pretty much negligable. I'm not trying to insult Brainstorm or anything, maybe a few could be run in some fish lists alongside Standstill, if Fish needs more draw, but this thread is about UG Fish, not UG Zoo.

Well...

Before I post the decklist, I will address the most obvious question that most of you people reading this post are thinking: How the hell is this better than UR Fish?

I've tested both UR Fish and UG Fish a lot, and I can say that the style of play is pretty much identical. These are very very similar decks, the only real maindeck difference being River Boas and Suq'Ata Firewalkers vs Grim Lavamancers, Voidmage Prodigies, and Gorilla Shaman(s). Both decks are very good against Tog, Slaver, etc. However, I am under the impression that UG Fish is better.

Please don't stone me.

UG Fish can really dominate the mirror. River Boa and most importantly Suq'Ata Firewalker provide excellent answers that most UR Fish decks have almost no ways to deal with. I have played a ton of UR Fish decks with UG Fish, and UG Fish can definitley pwn the mirror, unless PTW is playing.

What matchups get worse when you switch from UR to UG fish? not too many. The dragon matchup gets slightly worse since you lack an early answer to Xantid Swarm, but not really much else changes.

The aggro matchups don't really get worse either, since River Boa and Drop of Honey from the sideboard can help a lot.

Speaking of that, most consider Gay/r to have a better sideboard. REB and R&R are really insane, but Drop of Honey and Oxidize can make up for much of that.

Alright, lemme move on to a sample list (my most current list):

5 Fetchlands
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Yavimaya Coast
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 River Boa
3 Suq'Ata Firewalker

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
1 Stifle
3 Null Rod
4 Standstill
4 Curiosity
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth

SB:
3 Oxidize
2 Energy Flux
1 Null Rod
2 Maze of Ith
2 Drop of Honey
1 Stifle
2 Crucible of Worlds (its been SICK in testing)
2 metagame slots (Magus of the Unseen is one of my favorites for here)

Alright, so I guess the main point of this thread is to debate how viable UG Fish is in Type 1. In my opinion, it is as good or even slightly better than UR Fish, which is already one of the best decks in Type 1, and the reason why it hasnt been posting more good results is that it has been way underplayed and undertested (Jacob Orlove stopped playing Fish, and I've only been to one IRL tourney with it, where it was svgly dominated by tiebreakers)

Of course, I could be a stupid newb and my vast number of Apprentice and MWS matches could all mean nothing, so lemme hear ur opinions.

PS: Crucible is really tasty.

Sphere of Resistance is sick vs Fish.... I would NOT board it out.

Why isnt Skullclamp being used in T1 aggro? This is a question I have been pondering for the past... 3 minutes, and it continued to perplex me until I began writing this post. Type 1 "aggro decks" appear to be inherently different from Type 2 aggro decks. It seems like, in Type 2,
there are many more board sweepers in the metagame, and there are no ways for aggro decks to deal with them except overwhelming the opposing decks with fuel. Most decks labeled aggro in Type 1, therefore, are very different from Type 2 aggro decks such as Goblins and Ravager. I have come to the conclusion, in the 3 minutes, that with the exception of Food Chain Goblins and MitDem Ravager, all Type 1 aggro decks deemed viable are actually Aggro-Control decks. I have also come to the conclusion in the 3 minutes that aggro-control decks aren't exactly good with Skullclamp. Part of the Aggro-Control decks nature seems to be to counter or preclude the opponent's options for winning and not-dying with their massive board advantage. Aggro decks, in Type 2 at least, don't really try to take away the options of the defending deck, but instead try to be too fast for those options.
Aggro-Control decks in Type 1 seem to take away the opponent's options/win by gaining control of the board... and Skullclamp weakens your board rather than strengthens it. Sure, you can make your board better by playing the freshly drawn cards off the clamp into play, but this takes time and mana, and aggro-control decks need to deny their opponent of as much time as possible.

I was looking at the modular thread, which seemed to me like
a very typical aggro-control deck, capable of amassing very powerful board advantage and thus winning. It doesn't run Skullclamp, and it doesn't seem like Clamp would be as good as the seemingly slower Sword of Fire and Ice.

This is because Skullclamp is actually slower in improving your board advantage.

Sure, it gives you fuel to deal with the slings and arrows of removal and countermagic, but your board is left with less, because you can't drop your entire hand all at once to reinvigorate it until the next turn. Skullclamp gives time to your opponent, and in Type 1 decks are very good at abusing time.

Don't get me wrong at all. I'm not calling Skullclamp bad at all. I've played WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much Type 2 in the past few months to say that. I'm just saying that it's not stellar in Aggro-Control. Please O Vintage Adepts, do not eat my unborn children (I will find a girl who looks somewhat like a girl with a fetish for nerds yet!)

These tenets of Aggro-Control that I've been naming hold true with
Fish too. Aggro-Control decks really neeeed board advantage to win,
and if an aggro-control deck doesnt have board advantage, it is losing.
One reason why Standstill is better than Brainstorm in aggro-control decks is that Brainstorm isn't nearly as effective at helping you attain board advantage as Standstill is at allowing you to retain board advantage. Board advantage is very easy to attain with Fish, and making it even stronger is a very important thing.

One reason why Pernicious Deed is so good against aggro-control decks (if it resolves ) is that it really shuts down their momentum and destroys board advantage instantly. Aggro-Control has been so sucessful
in Type 1 largely due to a lack of effective board sweepers that Aggro-Control decks don't have answers to. (Pernicious Deed is like the only one, and it doesn't work against every situation)
The only viable aggro-control deck that I can think of in Type 2, R/G Beasts, has a terrible time dealing with board sweepers in Type 2 as well.

Hmm... I appear to have drifted off the subject of Skullclamp and into  random subjects pertaining to Aggro-Control. And this post is getting long. So let me conclude:

For Skullclamp to be useful in a Type 1 deck, the deck must...

A. Not be Aggro-Control, but instead pure aggro or Aggro-Combo.
B. Not already have a very effective draw engine that allows the deck
to overwhelm the opponent. (sorry FCG.)
C. Be synergistic with Skullclamp, like how T2 Ravager and Goblins are.

Soo... For an AGGRO/aggro-combo (remember, im not talking about pure Combo decks)
deck to work well with Skullclamp in Type 1, it must fit all three of those criteria.

Yep. That means that Skullclamp is officially good in Type 1 Ravager affinity (not modular), which happens
to look exactly the same as Type 2 Ravager affinity.

So... I guess the only thing to say now is to start deckbuilding with these rules in mind...

...If you can find a creature base that has enough raw synergy and power to form the base of a pure aggro/aggro-combo deck BESIDES the affinity creatures and goblins.


Good Luck!

(edit: ...i didnt know it was possible to have this many run-on sentences in one post)

I have not tested this deck, but Biskelion = 2 for 1 alone, and with Sword/Modular counters it can do even more. 3 for a 2/2 does seem pretty icky, especially in control or combo matchups (alright, alright, its good vs kobolds), but against Fish, Welders, and Goblins, he looks like pure card advantage that synergizes well.

<3 being the only 14-year old on TMD... except for ifflejink :S

Yeah

under the light in my room they reflected badly, but Sheldon said that they would be fine in the florescent lighting of the tournament area :s

my mom wanted a judge to interview, so i suggested Sheldon Menery. She had a section with a bunch of quotes from him in it, but her editors cut it out as well as a lot of other stuff because they didn't give her that much space for the article...

yes, im 100% serious... you can ask The Atog Lord if you want, my mom and i met him on the shuttle back from the tournament site to the airport

Arcane Denial + Brainstorm is still a 3 mana inspiration that requires getting two seperate cards... but Arcane Denial + Plagarize = tech

very nice article rakso, this has been the best one ive read  by you in a while...

LOLOLOL.

My mom wrote that when we went to the JSS champs so that they would pay part of the airfare and so that she wouldn't be bored there ;P

A note of introduction. This is Thissa, I was a member for a while till the AOL ban… I’ve put in a false email address and ive figured out how to use internet explorer… if this isn’t allowed, you can reban me till I convince my mom to get hotmail. With that said, I will begin my post/rant.


Well. I believe we (by we I mean PTW) have already established in this thread that for UR Fish, Standstill > Brainstorm.

Orlove:

Ok. So… what you’re suggesting, is that you no longer play anything even close to Fish.

You suggest doing this by taking out the abusiveness of Standstill and replacing it with more abusive creatures… that still attempt to have synergy with Curiosity. Which, in the end, may not be the best choice for draw in your URG beats deck. The evasion/curiosity synergy is quite formidable, but all it does is make that deck Zoo with counters and draw. That’s completely different, therefore please don’t even compare Fish and Blue Zoo (I will be using that name for the rest of my disgruntled rant).

Something tells me Blue Zoo is going in the same direction UG Madness did. I seem to recall jpmeyer saying something about UG madness originating as a Curiosity deck without the Standstills, to allow better creatures (sound familiar?), but eventually it turned into UG madness because the creature quality was just better. UG madness is a very respectable deck, and I believe that Blue Zoo may eventually turn into a respectable deck too, although GREATLY different and probably without Curiosity. However, it will be completely different, and will therefore be uncomparable with Fish because it will look nothing like it. Running slightly better Fishesque creatures with a few Curiosities and Force of Wills thrown in doesn’t really make a good deck in my opinion, due to a huge lack of synergy. Therefore, when Blue Zoo finds some underlying synergy like UG madness and Fish have, it will no longer be comparable with Fish.

Seriously, I believe that for anything even resembling aggro to be successful in Type 1, it has to have a CRAPLOAD of synergy. Oshawa Stompy did. UG madness does. Old Madness did. Ravager Affinity does. Food Chain Goblins does. Fish does. Sligh? Suiblack? Old Zoo? 10land Stompy? Those are all terrible decks lacking synergy. I think we should try and face it. Aggro and Aggro-Control need synergy like Fish needs Standstill, like America needs someone besides bush, like magic players need pr0n.

VIVE LA STANDSTILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(edit: hmm... i sound like an arrogant asshole, naming your deck and all, trashing it, etc... my appologies in advance if this is the case)