I don't think this card is pure upside. 

First off, it costs you a card and 2R for a 3/2 Menace.  That's not objectively terrible, but spending that much mana and a card is potentially downside all by itself.

Second, I don't think the draw-mill ability is all upside, except perhaps in an aggro or burn deck with maximum redundancy.  You're letting your opponent see your topdeck once a turn, and if they don't like it, giving them a chance to mill it.  Let's re-phrase the card a bit:

"At the beginning of your upkeep, your opponent Fateseals 1. If the opponent puts the card the bottom of your library, put it into the graveyard and he or she loses life equal to its casting cost.  If the opponent leaves the card on top, put that card into your hand."

So, yes, you are trading one random card on top for another.  Sure.  But, your enemy is getting to Fateseal every other card.  Kind of.  You get past the card either way, and you won't lose your regular draw step. They can't stop you from drawing your card normally, no.  But, they can influence your draws by kicking away any critical cards coming up.  In a deck with silver bullets or tutors, this gets potentially more serious. 

If your opponent is mill Lightning Bolts in a burn deck, then that's gravy; this guy acts a lot like Pyrostatic Pillar on-a-stick (the name escapes me).  But in a Vintage deck, I think the free Fateseal is actually kind of problematic.

Oh look disintegrate is back.   

Hey, if you wanna give out MS Paint artwork to last place,  I'm cool with that.   Rock on, King Bob.

Yes, Visitor does beat Bob everywhere BUT the draw ability.  But, when people turn to Bob, it's specifically BECAUSE of that draw ability, you know what I mean?  Visitor fills a totally different niche, one where the card draw is an unreliable bonus.  It's true that since Gush, Young Pyro, and Mentor showed up, Bob has been invisible.  And it's true that he's likely to stay that way with Thirst also being unrestricted.

But, look at what Bob did when he was legal.  His role was to be an absurdly threatening turn 1 drop from blue decks, largely.  Yeah, you hit the occasional Force of Will to much hilarity, but most of the time you're losing 0-1 life from cards you draw.  And draw he does.  As a draw engine, Bob did his job.  And he still can, if the meta adjusted to make him playable again.  If you want to draw cards off your 1B drop, Bob is still king.  

I was totally with you until that last bit.  No, I don't think Visitor actually exceeds Bob.  Sure, it's situationally better.  In particular, it lets you run a higher curve without fear.   But, if you're looking for a turn 1 draw engine, I think Bob is still far and away the better choice since it, you know, actually WILL draw you cards if it lives.  This dork will not.

But, like I said, I'm with you otherwise.  I will be brewing with this saucy lady.

Ah, excellent point.  

And to expand on this, if you are playing 8rack or something else with lots of discard, you have a huge percentage that you will not draw an instant.  The only instant speed discard is, what, Funeral Charm?

EDIT: Piracy Charm, too.

This card seems really powerful.  I'm really happy that Wizards tries this, steadily improving on old designs that proved not QUITE powerful enough.  (Blood Scriviner).  Let's examine this dork with a Vintage eye:

1. 3/1 for 1B.  That's absolutely fair stats and trades with virtually every creature that isn't cheated out in the format - most critically, Lodestone Golem.
2. It draws cards if your OPPONENT is Hellbent.  This makes it powerful in a discard shell.  Powerful enough to make 8rack.dec actually a thing? (Eh... no, because half of the cards you draw will be just more discard!)
3. It draws cards if YOU are Hellbent.  This is probably a less likely scenario, but in a Dark Times, Dredge, Dragon, or aggro deck, that's something that could totally happen.
4. It draws TWO cards if you AND your opponent are hellbent.  I can't see this happening too much, but this makes cards like Chain of Smog (yeah, you had to look that up, didn't ya), Bottomless Pit, Cunning Lethemancer, and Delerium Skiens much more powerful.

Yep, Xouman has it right.  Harness puts no conditions on HOW you cast the card from your yard, only that you may cast them.

Now, some effects, like Suspend, will have a problem with this because they only work from your hand.  But Force of Will?  Seems fine.

I dunno.  It is a 2R do-nothing on it's lonesome, and that's pretty bad.  However, Git probing for 2 each time seems pretty amazing for a card that's good already.  Double-bolt or double-REB seems fine.  Heck, you can even double flusterstorm or double force something in a pinch.  And, it leaves your yard intact the whole time.

This card does a WHOLE LOT if you get it going...

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH SNAP

You're totally right.

I withdraw all of my kind words for this card.

As with Steam Augury, so with this card.  That giant circular thing that Jace is looking at?  It's a toilet.  And it's flushing.  The poop.

I don't know how bad this is, really.  You guys are both assuming that you want exactly 1 card in your top X, and would not just take volume over that one card.  That's like assuming that Fact or Fiction is really just "pay 4 draw 1" when that's not the case at all.  It's a more flexible Fact or Fiction that misses one card at the X = 3 slot compared to its predecessor.  Let's look at this guy at each casting cost.

X = 0
You mill a card.

X = 1
You get the best of the top 2 cards, other one in the yard.

X = 2
You get the best of the top 3 cards OR you get 2 cards, the others in the yard.

X = 3+
You get the best of the top X cards or you get 2+ cards, others in yard.

...and we're doing this at instant speed.  I don't think you can disregard it at all; it's absolutely worth investigating.  


Steam Augury is a bucket of poop because the OPPONENT chooses which pile you get.  Meaning, you can never use Steam to get exactly the card you need.  With this and Fact, you ultimately choose which pile you need so if you really need a particular card, it's yours.

FoF is better at U3, but that's it.  You can't go Land, Mox, Go and hold up countermagic, then end of turn Epiphany for the best of the top 2 to find gas, for example.  Flexibility and scalability are important.

@rikrter: You are absolutely correct.  I am very confident that the conversation with Hasbro's attorneys focused on the fact that there were viable claims that MIGHT result from a violation of the Reserve List, chiefly Promissory Estoppel but also potential various state law deceptive trade practice laws (they vary). 

You then have to put yourself in WotC's shoes.  On the one hand, we have potential fallout from violating the policy and the money you'd make in doing so.  On the other hand, you have no risk and the same amount of money being spent all the time.  It's kind of a no-brainer, at least as long as Magic is growing and profitable.

But, all is not lost.  WotC is aggressively reprinting where they can (Shocklands! Fetchlands!) and printing situational substitutes for older cards when they can (Mana Drain's competition in different kinds of countermagic).  So far, they've been a bit too timid to print situational substitutes for the Power Nine, but there's no reason they cannot.  So, relax, the problem is being addressed in probably the most rational way possible.

Summary judgment comes after discovery and class certification and motions to dismiss and nonparties at fault and motions to compel and motions for protective order and depositions and practically everything before trial, i.e. after you are already in the poor house from paying your attorney. 

Advising a client to screw around because they probably win summary judgment based on facts that might or might not come out in discovery is dumb.

Or, more likely, you wait to sacrifice the Hexmage until you've put the ability on the stack.  That is:

Our Hero: "Brainstorm?"
Some Scoundrel: "Pass priority."
Out Hero: "Okay, brainstorm resolves, my Thing in the Ice triggers.  Hold priority.  Sacrifice Hexmage targeting thing."

That way, you don't lose the lady until you're pretty sure she'll be flipping the TITI.

Quote from: MirariKnight on Today at 02:14:27 pm
Quote from: nedleeds on Today at 01:40:03 pm
The tapped clause is an unneeded kick in the nuts.

Came here to say exactly this. Same card without the tapped clause and we're talking a potential playable. Oh well.

It's worse, sure, but it still works fine if you're playing her in a format where the creatures you need to kill are actually attacking you  (i.e. Modern).  She's gonna be a 4cc removal spell that then slowly ramps to win the game, and that's not too shabby.

EDIT: Also, not that it's super relevant for us, but I suspect this card means we're getting a new Emrakul in Eldritch Moon.  Here's my thought process:

1. She's named a "Harbinger."  That is, someone who heralds the arrival of someone else.  Who is the Galactus to her Silver Surfer?  There's some more powerful entity she's working for.  Who in Nahiri's past other than Emrakul fits the bill in this relationship?

2. She has a grudge against Sorin, but she's working for someone else who also has a reason to strike out at Sorin (See Harbinger).  Who other than Emrakul has such a reason that we know of?

3.  Something happened to make her royally angry with Sorin, something he's not proud of.  Betchya a lot of people she liked got axed and Sorin's to blame.  Emrakul's power set is corruption and intensifying feelings of loneliness and loss.  Seems like the perfect fit for an entity that could convince / corrupt Nahiri using her anger or loss resulting from Sorin's bad act.

4. Next set is Eldritch Moon, and with apologies to Marit Lage, ain't no one more Cthulu in all of Magic than Emrakul.  

5. Avacyn wasn't just locked in a prison or stabbed with an artifact like we see Nahiri doing to others.  She was corrupted and distorted - exactly the kind of power weilded by Emrakul, not Nahiri.

6. Both Nahiri and Emrakul were notably missing from the events of Battle for Zendikar, even though both had strong reasons otherwise to be involved.

7. The corruption being investigated on Innistrad artistically reminds you of Emrakul's corruption (tangles of worm-like tentacles).  

8. Our team of Eldrazi-fighting superfriends are investigating Innistrad and they still need a Black member of their super team.  Either Liliana or Sorin might plausibly fit that bill, if they encounter a multi-verse level threat important enough to set aside their individuality and do so.  The only threats that large we know of are Eldrazi and the Phyrexians, but the latter are locked in a single plane.  None of the other big bads like Nicol Bolas ever make themselves so obviously threatening as to invite a team-up like this.

9. Nahiri's ability to tinker something is not limited to artifacts, like you would expect; she can get creatures, too, like, say, Eldrazi.

All in all, I bet we're seeing a neutered Emrakul in Eldritch Moon.  If it's at least as decent as Ulamog was, that will warrant some discussion.

I agree with your evaluation.  Fine card is fine, but probably not in Vintage.

However, I note that Blightsteel Collossus is legal in Modern.  Shape Anew was already bubbling below the surface as a viable deck given the Thopter-birthing cards from Origins, and was already going to get better due to the Clue tokens in Shadows.  That deck, which is already Red-White-Blue, gets a great 4-drop that can tinker blightsteel all by itself if you protect it with tokens long enough.  It does compete with the Nalaar parents and Thopter Spy Network at the four slot, but it might be better than both anyway.

I predict this makes waves in Modern for exactly this reason.

That's nice for Modern, but in Vintage, I think we ask more of our spells than being totally useless combo pieces, since that slot is filled quite nicely by the 2cc Time Vault.

I'm glad people feel confidant taking strong positions.

Me?  I don't think that 1U for a board wipe and a 7/8 is "obviously" unplayable in Vintage, just like I don't think a card that needs four other spells to do anything is "obviously" playable.  I wouldn't mind playing with a set of TITIs.  Still, until we get them in our hands, it's hard to know how good they really are.

Situationally, maybe.  Goyf is better in two circumstances:

1. Goyf is a better topdeck if your hand is empty and you're drawing your way out of a problem.
2. Goyf is also better if your 2 drop beatstick gets bounced or blinked.  Granted, the work to re-flip Thing in the Ice is minimal, it's still work Goyf doesn't have to do.

I agree that in basically all other situations piloting a deck with lots of U cantrips and countermagic, I'd rather have Thing.

Not just that, but this dork doesn't auto-lose to chump blockers (due to the bounce effect) or removal when it's small (it's trivial to recast and reflip).  I think he takes the crown from Mana Gorger Hydra as the best vertical grower -- maybe even good enough for Delver to play!

What I don't get is why Wizards decided Blue needs to be the color of undercosted monsters with easy-to-satisfy conditions.  (Delver, Ensoul, this thing).  I mean, I GET IT, you want me to make my Cube all-blue, OKAY.

I didn't say it was GOOD, Chubby my man, I just said it was POSSIBLE.

Anyway, don't sleep too deep.  The Madness mechanic is in Shadows, and between Baby Jace, unrestricted Thirst, and Dack Fayden, it's never been easier to trigger Madness in Vintage.  (Well, except for when everyone played Psychatog I guess.)

Well, there is.  You can sacrifice/bounce/blink the Brain with it's second ability on the stack.  It won't place a counter, and last known information will be zero, so it will allow you to cast Suspend cards.

Best use I can think of for this is Greater Gargadon / Restore Balance combo, since it works nicely with both sides of the combo. 

The article is something of a misnomer, really.  None of the cards discussed in the article are "bad" in an absolute sense.  If you want "bad" cards, you're talking more like Chimney Imp and Storm Crow: cards that do virtually nothing and are strictly worse than alternatives.

No, most of the cards your article addresses are cards that break rules or have extreme effects.  LED makes 3 mana out of 0.  Marit Lage is a 20/20 that pops out of a land card.  Summoner's Pact gives you a tutor effect for 0 mana.  Delusions causes a (temporary) 20 point life swing. Flash puts a dork onto the battlefield for 2 mana.   Amulet of Vigor does not have a huge effect, but it is totally unique, making it a necessary cog in a very specific combo.

The takeaway here is not that bad cards become good.  Pillarfield Ox is never going to go from a junk common to the next LED.  No, the thesis of the article should be: "Watch out for cards with massive or unique effects because they are the engines that fuel combos as more cards are printed."

I think a lot of people are underestimating this as a mana generating effect.  It costs 2 and a card, and that's no joke.  However, once you make that investment, in a typical Vintage deck you will be casting cards at the 1 - 3 mana range pretty regularly.  Once Brain is out there, you can cast cards with it or not with no real difference except Sorceries get flash and Stifle becomes a slightly bigger roadblock.  (Stops the ability so you keep the spell, but lose the 1 mana.)  Each time you incidentally use Brain to cast a card, you generate an additional mana of any color you can use next turn.

Imagine this.

Turn 1: Mox, Island, Delver.
Turn 2: Fetch, Brain, pass. 
Turn 2 Opponent's End Step: Tap U, pay for Brain, cast Ponder.
Turn 3: Flip delver thanks to Ponder.  We now have 3 mana available and another "virtual" mana of any color thanks to Brain.

This isn't magical Christmas land, really.  This card rewards you for simply playing Magic.  After you've cast two spells using Brain, it's already going to pay for itself mana-wise, and more, on the next activation.  And, if you're in draw-go mode down the road, you can cash in a few counters to dig.  Scry 3 or more is no joke.

It doesn't do as much as Baby Jace for 2 mana, granted, but I think it's very powerful.

I like this card in Modern and Legacy.  I don't know that it's fast enough for Vintage, but it MIGHT be, since it's the cheapest way to cast Tinker on your opponent's end step we have at the moment.

1. Casting Cost - 2
This is significant. If you drop this, you're not dropping Jace, Goyf, Stoneforge, or some other clearly amazing two-drop. It's also likely not coming down on turn 1. In my mind, this is a huge liability. If any single problem will keep this from seeing play, it is the fact that it costs 2 instead of 1.

2. Activation Cost - 1
This is reasonable. Assuming you had 2 mana to cast it, it should be relatively easy to keep piloting your Modern or Legacy deck with 1 open mana at the end of your turn. End step, tap to ramp up Brains, should be pretty common. And, unless Chalice causes a sea change in how Legacy and Modern decks are built, you will ramp this to 1 - 3 and keep it there depending on what kind of spell you want to have on tap.

3. Ability 1 - Scry X
This is really important to make this card work. It allows you to ramp it back down, and without it, you might ramp it to 3 and then situationally want to be able to cast a cheaper spell. The fact that it's scrying reasonably deep makes it another very good end step play if you have no reason to ramp it or only want it set at 1. Very self-synergistic and a great design choice.

4. Ability 2 - Flash out an instant or sorcery with cost X
This is the part that I think you're all underselling. This ability does several things:

A - It fixes your mana. You are converting however many <> into colored mana to permit you cast the spell.

B - IT RAMPS FOR FREE. Let's say you want to cast Brainstorm. Normally, you spend U and get your 'storm on. With this on the battlefield, you pay <>, storm AND YOU NOW HAVE AN ADDITIONAL MANA OF ANY COLOR TO SPEND NEXT TURN. More precisely, you still got the Brainstorm and you still spent U, but now you can spend <> next turn to get two mana of any color for another spell. You've generated mana, and it hasn't slowed you down AT ALL to do it.

C - IT GIVES ALL YOUR SORCERIES FLASH. If you doubt how powerful it is to be able to wait and play spells on your opponent's end step, or in response to countermagic, take a look at Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique. (Hint: it can be REALLY powerful).

I don't know if it's unpopular or unique.  But I do have a pretty good idea how people outside the format looking in will view someone who equates their unwillingness to spend $20,0000 on Magic cards as not being dedicated enough to have a place in the community. It's not a good reaction, man. We want to grow the community, not tell people they are not good enough to join us.

So, yeah, abhorrent.  

EDIT: Also, I don't think your suggestion of someone pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps using drafts is realistic anymore.   I see very little trading happening in my local stores anymore.  Assuming you did dump 23 on a draft, you're only spending about 280 or so a year, which is 2800 in ten years.   That's no where near a Vintage deck, and trading can't make up the additional slack.  Not anymore.

I agree with Greg, and I find the sentiment he quotes from gkraigher at the end of his post abhorrent and a terrible thing to say as a member of the Vintage community.   At best,  it ignores the reality that perfect liquidity and perfect information allow prices to reach their maximum possible value faster than ever before.   At worst,  it's a self destructive, elitist attitude that discourages the growth of the format and will be cited by those who don't play it to prove we're all buttheads.

This is the usual wrangling over language we see all the time.   One side calls a sudden spike a "buyout," and the other side calls it a "correction."

The fact is, theres a measurable difference between the slow and steady growth of playable cards over time, and the rocket ship to Mars blasting off that we've seen in cards like null rod.  The latter is absolutely the result of the highly liquid Magic market, where people can and do bet huge amounts of money that the market can bear a higher price.  They make this bet by buying all the copies of a card readily available online, and then wait and see where the price settles.

This is a brutal and effective way to find out the maximum the market can possibly bear for a card.  If you think Magic prices are correct when they are as high as dealers can possibly charge and still move inventory, then you see it ad a price correction.  But make no mistake;  it's a buyout leading the charge, not just players steadily out bidding each other on eBay.

Geez, this conversation got really weird really fast.  Okay, pull up a chair, youngsters.

As you know, the Reserve List was established in reaction to Chronicles making people crap their pants about the value of Carrion Ants going down.  For awhile, the stated policy of the Reserve List allowed them to print "premium" versions of cards on the list.  So, they reprinted Mox Diamond, Memory Jar, and others in foil premium products.  Then they printed Phyrexian Negator in a supplemental product, and someone unloaded their dump truck into their drawers again.  Wizards took notice, and revised the policy so that now no paper printing legal in sanctioned events could EVER be printed.  They called it "closing the premium loophole."

But wait, there's more.  Wizards has also experimented a bit with how close they can get to printing cards on the Reserve List without technically violating it, culminating in Reverberate, which is Fork without the color-changing clause.  Apparently someone still had a bit of a sloppy fart over this, because someone (I think it was Rosewater?) made a statement in response about how they felt this card was too close to violating the "spirit" of the Reserve List even though it technically did not.  

So, where does that leave us?  Well, first off, someone out there still has trouble controlling their bowel movements, and when Wizards tinkers with the Reserve List, they soil themselves.  Lord knows who, but from the smell, someone is definitely reacting and talking to them, threatening perhaps even, each time they mess around with the List.  

As long as WotC thinks there is SOME POSSIBILITY of litigation or negative press associated with abolishing the Reserve List,  they won't do it.  Why would they?  They're printing money hand over fist as it is, and if they really wanted to save Eternal Formats, there is nothing at all stopping them.  They've been quietly printing cards that replace / substitute for / compete with Reserve List staples for a long time, and that trend will continue.  So, if you want to see Vintage and Legacy grow, push Wizards to do what they're doing - print cards for Eternal.  Eventually we'll get a dual land that is situationally better / worse than a Revised Dual, and then that barrier to entry will be gone.  Same can be done for the Power Nine - hell, they try reprinting them ALL THE TIME.  Remember Days Undoing?  

Focus your attention on new cards to save Eternal.  Not abolishing the Reserve List.  And, while you do, try to ignore the smell.

EDIT: Whooaaa... I somehow missed this page of the thread.  I blame the site migration.  Oh well, perhaps I should add to the conversation that's ACTUALLY HAPPENING...


Yeah, as you acknowledge, all of these points are wonderful things for the lawyers to argue about.  But you know what?  SOMEONE is apparently out there ready to have that fight if Wizards abolishes the Reserve List, and having that fight is expensive.  So, why bother?


Exactly.  You've got three options, really:

1. Abolish the Reserve List - Not going to happen.
2. Ban the Reserve List - This is only the answer if the question is, "How can we more quickly kill Legacy and Vintage?"

Which leaves us with:

3. Print cards that replace or compete with Reserve list cards.

And Wizards is ACTUALLY DOING JUST THIS.  Look at how deep into Eternal formats new cards are penetrating nowadays.  The penetration is real.  Just cool your heels, cheer on products like Conspiracy and Commander, and wait for the problem to resolve.  Because it is resolving!