seems like dead weight to me.


As for the list, wouldnt a my battlesphere or 3 make quite a bit more impact than a hellkite when you are running welders?  those things get pretty stupid and fast.

and i am back from my weekend of getting stomped in legacy with my merfolk deck (I LOST TO A VAMPIRE DECK!!!!!). Roughest tourney in some time for me...and draft didnt go much better.

I did get to do quite a bit of testing this weekend with friends.

Some observations-
darksteel forge is such a hosing card. It comes out of left field and then my opponents deck all of a sudden has a ton of dead weight.

My forgemaster activations usually depend on one thing- do i have metal worker out or do i not?  If i do, I go for the nuts with either a staff of domination or memory jar (memory jar has yet to fail me...it usually means win if it lands). Without a welder, i pull out a huge robot fatty and go to town.

In one case, a friend pulled out his new berserk-infect-jank.dec. A slow hand and i was at 9 poison, the forgemaster came through to save me from humiliation with a timely tanglewire.  Thank goodness, i had been humiliated enough for one saturday .

Does not feel as consistent as my smokestack MUD deck i normally play, but it is FAR more interactive.


Ill give some more thoughts post pizza.

Im playing a fairly aggro mud build with the forgemaster toolbox as a set of answers, something on the line of-

4 lodestone golem
3 hellkites
4 metal workers
4 forgemasters

1 staff of domination
1 memory jar
1 sundering titan
1 karn

4 sphere of resistance
4 thorns
4 tangles
4 chalice

5 moxen
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 mana vault

4 workshops
3 factories
4 wasteland
1 city of traitors
1 stripmine
4 ancient tomb
1 tolarian academy


Thats off the top of my head. Could be a bit different.


As for precursor, I have a playset of foil golems that i preordered but have been too bummed out to play them since reading the FAQ. I might have to play with them a bit more.


I mean, i could always ditch the whole forgemaster approach, toss in the golems and swords of fire/ice and go to town with aggro mud full on.

Lately, I have been tinkering with the forgemaster in various MUD shells. Aside from the sheer annoyance of null rod, I have been pleasantly surprised with the outcomes.

Here are a few of my thoughts-
First of all, the sideboard can become fairly dynamic with the inclusion of such shenanigans as darksteel forge, ratchet bombs, duplicants, jester's cap, etc.


The combination of 3-4 forgemasters and associated toolbox can be run in most any workshop shell. In testing, its done well in both an aggro set up as well as a more prison set up.


Its still a 3/5 body which is no slouch when it comes out on turn 2-3. That being said, i have had the most success with the forgemaster in metalworker shells though i have yet to do extensive (aside from a casual game night with friends) of testing it within the welder shell, but obviously, things can get pretty crazy with a forgemaster, welder and something like a myr battlesphere.


My current generic toolbox has been something of-
memory jar
darksteel colossus/sundering titan
triskelion/karn
platinum emperium/angel
staff of domination

naturally things can be switched around a bit.


One important aspect, though, seems to be the mana base. It seems almost imperative in testing to have 4 factories and I personally have been toying with putting in 2 darksteel citadels as well. In quite a few games, i was able to sac a mox, factory and spent tangle wire for an answer.



And on a personal note, I like that its a bit more enjoyable to play shops with increased decision making due to a having a toolbox.

if you are hell bent on more creatures, and i think i mentioned this already.

ESPERZOA.  You can start to do some silly things with that, a riddlesmith and a welder out.

ugh....there are so many things i would rather run in a welder-shop shell than glowriders. And if you are going to run blue and want to play a fatty flier with EXTREME synergy with riddlesmith, why not esperzoa? Esperzoa also has the nice plus of being an artifact.

also, are crucibles really all that needed without smokestacks?


i could go a bit more but.... i dont want to completely overhaul the deck.

I have been playing with contagion clasp in MUD shells with some interesting success. The -1/1 is nice for a quick kill of something annoying, but a perpetual tangle wire (or even worse if you use two clasps) or a smokestack that ramps twice as fast is no joking matter.

They can also make a gemstone mine that never goes away in 5C lists. All in all, there are quite a few tricks a contagion clasp can pulll if you have 4 mana to fiddle around with (which i usually do in mud builds).

forgot to mention-
contagion clasp as a singleton is not too shabby either in MUD. The never ending tangle wire and a smokestack that can wipe the board twice as fast is wonderful!

as well as nabbing the singleton trinisphere


OR running MEMORY JAR!

i have been testing him with fairly surprising results as well.

Its nice to finally do something with a spent tanglewire rather than feed it to the smokestack... or the trinisphere that is just sitting there now. To top things off, he can eat himself in a pinch.

You have already mentioned the best part about him as well, well the best oft unnoticed part: his 3/5 body.

Honestly, i am torn from playing a more traditional mud set with lodestones and forgemasters with a few search targets (such as hellkite, angel, karn and sundering/darksteel) or full on aggro mud with swords of fire/ice, metal workers, a set of steel hellkites and roll.


As for search targets, even though a creature is nice, sometimes grabbing that smokestack is oh so nice....or even a single copy of ratchet bomb.

As for triskelion...not so much anymore. Trike handles them the turn he hits, the dragon takes a turn as does razormane.  But you do have to play around an active trike in some manner. Honestly though, i have not had that much trouble in with the cobra decks (though testing has been limited).

He is though, an interesting board option on second thought, especially since they just boarded in their artifact hate. Having some instant speed answers to their deck that can hit before are sent to the yard is not too shabby.


honestly though, like i said, i have not had really all that many problems.

ok i am following you now. I thought you were arguing that the mox had no place. NOW i see that he indeed was cutting all three for opals...which i agree is a bad idea.

I hate the idea of cutting trinisphere. It just gives MUD that "HOLY SH&%! TYPE 1" feel. Spheres do not have nearly the on the play turn one impact of shop-trini. Thats a nice way of saying GG in most cases. Even on the draw its a pretty nasty play.

Trinisphere's, as a singleton, statistical impact is low (like black lotus), but i dont hear anyone clamoring for lotus to be cut from mud lists b/c it is a dead draw under spheres or past turn 3.



As for dragon, i got my playset yesterday and have been playing this afternoon with quite a bit of pleasant success. I am running it in a metalworker shell and when that bad boy swings on turn 3, its game over.

its not not good. if anything is going to be cut, it will be vault.



no one is going to cut sol ring instead of mana vault or even crypt.

i think his point was that mox opal is a better option than mana crypt/sol ring/mana vault in 5c STAX. Its a reasonable point whether you agree with it or not.


but like i said prior, i would not dismiss the opal out of hand, even in MUD lists.

dragon was definitely my go-to guy for additions to the mud shell. I was pretty pumped about precursor golem until i found out he had horrible synergy with lodestone.

That aside, dragon has one big perk that you already mentioned: HE FLIES!

How refreshing to finally have an option that spoils the day for trygon.



I have reservations about not rolling with metal worker with dragon. Metalworker just brings in some extremely explosive plays. I can only see this working to the MUD player's advantage with the big mana cost mega flier that is the hellkite.

I dream of a creature base of something like-
4 lodestone
4 hellkites
2 karns
4 metal workers

with a nice few swords of fire and ice into the mix.

toss in the 13 sphere mix, compliments of artifacts, of which i think a mox opal or two has a place.

and there we go.

is it really a must have in MUD lists?  probably not. I can see it as a one or two of. Its legendary, has an annoying drawback (cant really roll till turn 2 reliably). It does make a nice 6th mox though. Better in Mud than the other 2 mox cousins (chrome and diamond).

and as the above poster states,

it performs far better in 5c stax than MUD lists

a pity about precursor golem... I was really on the bandwagon for him until the FAQ came out.  Still an interesting card, but that definitely sucked the wind from my sails...so to speak.


Im not nearly as pumped about prototype portal as everyone else. I dont think i am going to be dropping smokestack for this any time soon. Despite it being a "reverse" smokestack.


The two cards i am excited about the most are myr battlesphere (just b/c it makes a nasty welder deck than i can play with friends) and on a more competitive note, the steel hellkite. My lodestone golem was always looking for a quality buddy that could handle his arch enemy trygon.  My metalworker shop deck just got a nice upgrade.

To expound a bit, if you do not roll with the explosiveness of shops and power, then we need to adjust the build a bit.

Personally, i would play this as an U, aggro mud-

Something along the lines of-
4 spheres
4 thorns
4 aether vial

4 lodestones
4 master of etherium
4 etherium sculptor
4 myr enforcer
4 frogmite

4 thoughtcast (though kinda sucks with spheres rolling, still probably your best option)

1 mana vault
1 sol ring
1 crypt
1 petal

4 darksteel
4 seat of synod
8 other artifact lands depending on your bord
4 mishra's factory

I am willing to bet that if he is going to run a powerless and shopless list, then he will not have to worry with null rod.

by mud without power and shops....you mean affinity?

frogmites
myr enforcers
lodestone golems

artifact lands
ancient tombs

the blue/white artifact creatures


then you are golden.

Tolarian Academy is a much stronger mid/late draw than lotus.  It is free under the lock and allows for complete negation of most of the lock pieces as far as casting a permanent goes. As far as the other lands go, you dont carry them as one of's in your deck, increasingly likelihood to have them in your opening hand and first few draws...and lands are free drop permanent under a lock...unlike lotus.

As for pointing out that the only time lotus is a liability is in welder mirrors, that seems to be a liability on the rise.

As for your argument about welding it, saccing it and discarding to bazaar...ornithopter fits the same criteria, but i dont see it being played in stax decks.  But your point is that you have roughly a 1/25 chance to have a nuts draw and if you dont, you have an ornithopter.


I am not arguing that lotus does not lead to broken turns if you are on the play, I am just pointing out that in the stax list, it is one of the weaker cards over a long session of games.

sure, who has not had the opening hand of shop-lotus-golem-sphere for a near instant win?  I would have to say though, that mathematically, such a hand is pretty slim and hardly reason to weigh the merits of lotus, somewhere around 1 in 250. 

I mean, I suppose, under that line of thought, i should splash blue for tinker and whatever else for a turn one god hand.


We are not asking if lotus is good, but is it optimal in stax decks.


I think you missed my point, lotus turn one is great, the further into the game we go, the weaker a lotus draw becomes. I am referring to that, not of you having it on the board prior to a sphere/trini/thorn lock.



In the end, i dont think lotus makes stax less consistent for the trade off a random chance explosive opener.

Though, it is noted that lotus does have the nice place of being able to cast through a lock via holding off a turn (i.e put a lotus out under the lock at the added cost then use it next turn to nullify the lock). In my play, I have found these occurrences to be rare (mainly b/c i do not need lotus to cast under the lock). I mean for the most part, if you have 2-3 spheres up and running, game is probably in hand. And if its not, say storm is holding its position to hurkyll, lotus probably isnt going to do much anyway.

Here is my beef with lotus:

1. mathematically, you have a 13% chance of drawing it in your opening hand if you are on the go, lotus is worse on the draw, in my opinion. Not only this, you need to have an effective card for lotus to be valuable, thus lowering the chance of it being an impact on the game.

2. After turn one, lotus might as well be an ornithopter, though not always the case after a smokestack wipe.

3. it is a dead card (at the best) vs any deck running welders (which seems to be on the rise due to lodestone).


More often than not, when i draw lotus i usually wish it was any other card in my deck.

I think i failed to mention that i played the deck in various multiplayer settings.

I have the deep desire to play a sliver deck casually but am not sure how to go about it.

I am thinking about using a core of
4 muscle
4 sinew
4 virulent
4 quick
4 gemhide
4 sidewinder
4 crystaline
4 homing sliver
2 winged
2 might
and then a load of 1 ofs

Part of me really wants to roll with
4 muscle
4 sinew
4 homing
3 virulent
3 sidewinder

and then nothing but 1's.  And not the boring stuff like might. But fun stuff like the legion, overlord, queen, psionic,

not sure what would be the most "fun" route.  I am a bit turned off by gemhides though, just seem boring.

if you are really worried about other shop decks, just run red and toss in your welders. In the stax mirror, he who welds first usually wins. This can also be pretty nice if you are running razormane masticores and have the board on lock through spheres/thorns/whatever.

Also, 4 sculpting steels seems a bit much...they can be nice if you pack welders though.

As for only 2 spheres...I think this is the wrong choice.  Getting spheres rolling is a sure way to win, and most of the time, the extra 1-2 (depending on spheres) hits your opponent far harder than it hits you. Especially vs anything aggro-esque (you are in a fish meta). In a deck with so many potent mana lands, the card is just too much of a show stopper, especially later in the game when you have the edge.


As for duplicant...only if you see a ton of oath. Other wise, trisk or razormane is far more potent.


Also, out of curiosity, what has been your mileage from black lotus?  More often than not, it seems to be either a dead card or a pain in my neck (had a couple of mirrors where i had it welded for my lodestones).

what i am tinkering with so far is this-

4 lodestone golem
4 su-chi
4 solemn simulacrum
3 razor mane masticore
1 sundering titan

3 sword of fire and ice

4 goblin welder

4 sphere of resistance
4 tangle wires
1 trinisphere

5 moxen
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring

4 mishra's factory
4 mishra's workshop
4 ancient tomb
6 mountain
1 stripmine
1 tolarian academy



Thats a bit more toned down but still keeps the flavor of the deck.  More big fatties and less lock.



I am also tempted to run some kind of funky eater of days/smokestack deck for fun as well, though i have the feeling that will only be worse.

to be honest, i have found the biggest impact vs fish has been lodestone golem.  Its been the fatty i have always wanted for stax. Besides just having the 5/3 bottom, it has an immediate impact when it hits. Though it still gets eaten by predators and pridemages.  But on the up side, it can look a tarmogoyf in the face.

As for lavamancer, while he does force the noble fish user to not sit on pridemages he still cant stop a predator from eating a permanent a turn. The usual medicine for noble fish, aside from getting a chalice resolved at 2, is boarding in 4 magus of the moon. Razormanes, if you can get one going can put a serious hurt on noble fish.


To be honest, i think that if anything were to give gorilla shaman the boot (which i certainly think there are things) it would not be lavamancers.

TnT is not a bad idea...i had forgotten about that deck.  Sad thing is, when the hell did survival's get to be so expensive? 

Some of the card choices are not so bad in the deck.  Thorn of amethyst is mediocre while lodestone golem is a wrecking ball in this very casual meta. I did run across another deck with it and these white artifact creatures.

Maybe i should go that route?  it seems like it sucks, but maybe that isnt such a bad thing.

i am in a bit of a dilemma. I am an avid B/R stax player having migrated to stax after the restriction of brainstorm (almost quit entirely actually due to this restriction...), and have been rolling with shops since. The problem is that i moved to a new area with an avid type one player base...unfortunately, its not, how to put it...competitive. A better descriptive would be a type 2 and extended format with a smattering of cards from older sets.

I come in there excited the first night to play in the tournament (about 14-16 people) and end up stomping through it like a huge asshole with the toughest competition being a semi-decent goblin deck sporting a lone ruby.

I am trying to build a more casual friendly deck, but i dont have much in the way of a card pool aside from a tyrant oath deck from 2008 and my workshop deck.

My question is this, how can i build a deck that still feels like stax (runs shops and moxes) without feeling like an asshole when i play? 


Personally, i am leaning towards a more aggro oriented shop deck, but even then...i dont want to seem too overwhelming.

My list-

4 lodestone golem
4 juggernaut
2 triskelion
2 razormane masticore
2 karn, silver golem

4 sphere of resistance
4 thorn of amethyst
4 tangle wire
1 trinisphere

5 moxen
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 mana vault

4 mishra's workshop
4 wasteland
1 stripmine
4 mishra's factory
2 city of traitors
1 tolarian academy
4 ancient tomb


From my card pool, i also have-
welders
dark confidants
su-chi
staff of domination
smoke stack
etc, etc, etc