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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Workshop!
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on: August 15, 2004, 03:55:48 am
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As for restricitng workshop I see no need to unless workshop decks become dominant. Right now, they are part of a healthy metagame so I see no need to kill off the archetype(s).
Your post says that the workshop is a problem and why wait when we already know the problem. To wait until everybody bought their Workshops and then restrict it isen´t that crazy.
Why did they restrict Mind´s Desire before it was released? Why not see if it would be a problem first? It wasen´t a problem for the metagame until we saw what was going to happen.
Problems shall be repaired before we crash the meta!!
Many people doesn´t have to pay $$ or their workshops and then loose a lot of $$.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / See the problem!
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on: August 14, 2004, 04:14:55 am
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Thank you Zelyon! You seem to understand the probelm.
Anyone going to Gencon? Are you playing a Workshop based deck? If not good luck!. StaX, EuroStax is going to own you all.
About Crucible Of the Worlds it may seem like a problem in the beginning but just wait until after Gencon and we´ll see that it´s not.
If a 4C, Fish, Landstill packs their decks with Crucible Of The Worlds and Wastelands then give me one reason that URphidian packed with Blood Moons won´t humiliate those decks.
Crucible is just a new cool card that we have too learn to live with, sure it´s good but it´s just a card that some people just overpower for the moment.
The only decks that can take take out it´s full power of CoW is prisondecks like Stax where it acts like an extra lockpart (Oneway Smokestack). It isen´t the best turn one drop but it´s a perfect turn 2 drop in prisondecks. Turn one Trinisphere or Sphere and a turn 2 CoW should make the lock hard enough to break.
I have discussed this for a few weeks already at the Swedish forums. Artifacts is supposed to have a higher castingcost because they can be played in all decks. The problem is that Workshop takes away the drawback of the highcasting cost artifacts and makes them droppable on turn one and that wasen´t supposed by R&D. If we look at type2, Extended, Standard.
Trinisphere (3)
Land + Chrome Mox(imprintcard)
Land + Trinisphere
A turn 2 Trinisphere with a Cmox this is acceptable in a format like T2, Standard, Extended. People even have the chance to disrupt the opponents manabase before he can resolve the Trinisphere on Turn2.
Type1
Workshop + Trinisphere
Your opponent can´t do anything until turn3 if not running Wastelands or Workshops also. This can´t be what Wizards had in Mind.
Without the Workshop
(City Of Traitors,Ancient Tomb) + Mox + Trinisphere
Same scenario but you have to get three cards instead of the 2 cards and this is more acceptable in Type1.
The problem is that good StaX players mulligan to a Trinisphere first Turn against many matchups cause they know that a resolved Trinisphere first turn is a autowin. It neats them 2 more cards and 2 more turns to play more lockparts.
Workshop has to go, Yes i am sorry to say that but that is the truth to make the format healty again . And everybody that has payed 200-250 $ for their Workshops, this gotta be done sooner or later.
Thank You!
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Get Real!
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on: August 13, 2004, 02:52:41 pm
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Ok, Everybody on this thread ... Please try to get some focus and see the problem "Workshop" This is the only card that makes these cards to powerfull.
You want to give Stax a 6th gear, restrict Wasteland is ridicoulus.
Crucible Of The Worlds isen´t a problem at all i just can´t understand the disscusion on restricting a card like this. Give me an URphidian deck packed with maindecked Blood Moons and i will crush 4c Control with Crucible Of The Worlds.
So .. people remember FOCUS!
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / What impact will Crucible of Worlds have on the metagame?
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on: August 13, 2004, 03:48:48 am
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You probably missed out that some decks are almost mono brown, like MUD. Also, darksteel citadel is great vs gorilla shaman and provides a cheap artifact for goblin welder. Ok, probably the monobrown decks but in general. Island Vs Gorilla shaman works as good. cheap artifact for goblin welder.... Is there any place in the deck to put in a land that only produces 1 colorless. Don´t you rather play Ancient Tomb.
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5
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / What impact will Crucible of Worlds have on the metagame?
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on: August 13, 2004, 02:46:25 am
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About Darksteel Citadel!!
Why play this shitty land when you can play a basicland instead.
The only threat is Stripmine and you can only have one!
Citadel is even affected by nonbasic hosers so why run a land that is worse than a basic land and only produces colorless mana and is affected by Blood Moon and others hosers.
Solution for Crucible Of The Worlds is Blood Moon, If we say that you play against 4c Control with 2 Crucible Of The Worlds and you resolve a Blood Moon. All his lands is mountains incl. his Wastlands/Stripmine. So just pack your decks with Blood Moon and your going to own all Crucible Decks.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / What impact will Crucible of Worlds have on the metagame?
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on: August 13, 2004, 02:29:34 am
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Turn 1: Opponent Plays Workshop ---> Trinishipere You say: OH CRAP!! i dont have FoW... resolves Turn 2: Opponent plays Strip mine... Taps workshop... Casts CoW :shock: You Scoop knowing nomatter what you do... you will never have another turn. That is format distorting That's called a hard lock combo. And it involves 3 cards. And it depends on your opponent not going first (to play out moxen, etc). And it depends on them not being some ass with combo who can go land, ESG, ESG, Oxidize. And it depends on a pair of 3 CC artifacts. And it depends on them not grinning maniacally and Wasting your Workshop. And it depends on them not going Workshop, Crucible too. The list goes on and on. From the ever-distorted standpoint of a guy whose deck has a consistent Turn 2 goldfish (with plenty of Turn 1's to boot) and packs a set of Forces of Will, I don't find this combo to be terribly threatening, let alone format-defining. Your argument also ignores the fact that Trinisphere is just as vital to the lock. Should that get the axe too? -Dan The list doesn´t go on and on ... Here´s the list and it is short. Force Of Will Wasteland Workshop Are you serious ....combo who can go land, ESG, ESG, Oxidize. You play 4 cards and you take away his first threat without the lotus to back you up you probably can´t do nothing next turn anyway. That's called a hard lock combo. And it involves 3 cards. Yes it´s true but it´s not a combination of 2 4ofs in the deck. About any card he resolves gives the same result. It´s not a big problem to accomplish a hard lock with all these lockcomponents. Your argument also ignores the fact that Trinisphere is just as vital to the lock. Should that get the axe too? No neither Trinisphere nor Cow should get the axe the problem is Workshop who can fuel both these cards on turn1. Without the Workshop It´s a 3 card combo to resolve booth Trinisphere and Cow. About turn one wins!! , StaX is probably the deck that accomplishes most turn one wins today. Not by lethal damage on turn one but it locks the opponent and says, sorry you can´t win ! Wan´t to scoop or shall we play some more turns just for fun. Thank You!
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Workshop??
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on: August 12, 2004, 03:20:47 am
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We have discussed this for about some weeks already at our Swedish forums. The problem isen´t Crucible the problem is Workshop based decks like Stax. Stax is a prison deck that this card can abuse more than any other deck. If workshop would be restricted then a turn one Trinisphere, CoW, Smokestack or whatever isen´t possible in the same way it is today. As i see it the only deck that really can make really good use of it is Ws based decks. Fish and Landstill can use it too but in Stax it´s house. Against Stax decks we had 2 weapons Force Of Will and Wasteland and now when they have CoW also then the Wasteland isen´t a problem for them. This acts as an extra oneway smokestack in the deck and it was hard too keep your perms with an smokestack on 1.
If you are a Stax player and know what your oppponent plays he often takes mulligans too achieve a Turn one Trinisphere or other brokeness. This gotta be stopped or we are going to have somekind of a crazy Workshop meta for Workshopplayers only.
Pack cards like CoW in all decks seems stupid just cause your opponent plays CoW.
Regards! Jarmo!
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Sydcon Tournament ..
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on: August 03, 2004, 01:21:22 pm
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After 3 days of playing i have played against most of the top Tier1 decks out there. As i assumed Stax was a terrible matchup if i didn´t draw like a god. There was one more Draw7. This one was really hard too, i got 2 looses against Draw7 in these 3 days. The deck i played looked like this.
Maindeck:
The Combos: 4 Hermit Druid
1 Sutured Ghoul 1 Krosan Reclamation 1 Dragon Breath
3 Reanimate 2 Exhume
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought 4 Illusionary Mask
Blue search/Broken:
4 Brainstorm 1 Time Walk 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Mystical Tutor
Disruption:
3 Duress 3 Cabal Therapy
Black search/Broken:
2 Tainted Pact 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Yawgmoth´s Will
Mana acceleration:
1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Black Lotus 1 Mana Crypt
Lands:
4 Bayou 4 Underground Sea 3 Polluted Delta 2 City Of Brass 2 Bloodstained Mire
Sideboard:
2 Xantid Swarm 2 Hurkyl´s Recall 2 Pernicious Deed 2 Lighting Greaves 2 Gilded Drake 2 Root Maze 1 Coffin Purge 1 Ray of Revelation 1 Chain Of Vapor
On day2 we had a tournament with 50-60 pers with a looot of power. My final result became 10th place. Decks that i faced this day was.
Landstill 2-1 Draw7 0-2 Fish 2-1 4c Control 2-0 Stax 1-2 Reanimator 2-0
I just have to say to all of you that 4c control is a pretty easy matchup, i played against three different builds and won all of them. Presideboard and after sideboard. The Draw7 matchup could be improved a little but i have put the 2 Root Mazes in for this matchup and Dragon aswell. The big problem here in Sweden is the Stax matchup cause it´s terrible if you don´t win the DICE.
Day 1 i lost to Draw7 and Stax. Day2 i lost to Draw7 and Stax. Day3 i had to catch the bus.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Changes!
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on: July 25, 2004, 05:28:16 am
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In the decklist that i posted first i have made some changes.
-1 Tainted Pact +1 Reanimate
I have playtested the deck some and noticed how important it´s to get a animate spell asap. So one tainted pact is replaced with one Reanimate.
Next week we are having 3 Type1 Tournaments in 3 days a row and this is going to be where i make a Full Playtest of the deck. First day 120$ / Winner, Second day 120$ / Winner, Third day 650 $ / Cash for the flight to Gencon.
So ill report to you all how it went those 3 days next week.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Answer to the top 2 posts!
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on: July 13, 2004, 04:15:56 pm
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Having 4 animate spells gives you a high percentage to get one in your starting hand and if you don´t maybe you got the Mask and other goodies on your starting hand. The deck isen´t built 100% around the Hermit you can win with Dreadnoughts too. Some say more some say less animate spells. I have already discussed why i run more then 0 or 2 (Will only wincondition). Just read the older posts. Activating the Hermit EOT isen´t an option if you aren´t 100% sure. Make use of your Cabal Therapy´s for god sake.
A way to play ..
Turn 1 Play Hermit Turn 2 Activate Hermit Flashback Cabal Therapy (Target FoW) If you drawn a Reanimate or Exhume Play it and WIN! If not flashback Krosan Reclamation (Put 2 Reanimate spells ontop) Turn 3 Play Reanimate/Exhume (Unlucky countered)! Turn 4 Play Reanimate/Exhume & WIN!
This is kind of a perfect play and a none perfect way.
This deck isen´t for a player that doesn´t like to take a mulligan or two sometimes cause you have to do this sometimes.
I have considered testing a heavy blue based Ghoulnought deck.
What makes this better / Worse?
I have cut the Animate Spells to 2 , but included 2 topdeck tutors (Lim Dul´s Vault) that can get this pretty fast. The Tainted Pacts could remove Animate spells from the game and LIm Dul´s keeps them in the deck. Probabably the Lim Dul´s makes the deck a little slower. 4 Force Of Will Instead of the Duress and 2 Misd. . I think the FoW is powerhouse in this deck, if you combo out on turn 2,3 with Cabal Therapy backup and have a foW or a Misdirection on your hand then you should be safe. Probably the deck will suffer a little of it´s speed but you get a more stable build. The Misdirections could possibly work out some problems with spot removal like StP and others. This deck hasen´t been tested at all yet so i have to try i out in a tournament and report back how it went.
The Deck
4 Hermit Druid
1 Sutured Ghoul 1 Krosan Reclamation 1 Dragon Breath
1 Reanimate 1 Exhume
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought 4 Illusionary Mask
Blue search/Broken:
4 Brainstorm 1 Time Walk 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Chain Of Vapors
Multicolor Search:
2 Lim Dul´s Vault
Disruption:
4 Force Of Will 2 Misdirection 2 Cabal Therapy
Black search/Broken:
1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Yawgmoth´s Will
Mana acceleration:
1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Black Lotus 1 Mana Crypt
Lands:
2 Tropical Island 2 Bayou 4 Underground Sea 3 Polluted Delta 2 City Of Brass 2 Bloodstained Mire
Double post merged. I already told you to stop. -Jacob
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Heavy Blue Ghoulnought
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on: July 11, 2004, 12:36:41 pm
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I have considerd testing a heavyblue Ghoulnought deck by replacing: - 3 Duress - 1 Brainstorm - 3 Tainted Pact + 4 Force Of Will + 3 Lim Dul´s Vault 15 blue cards, i think is about the minimum you can have. I belive the deck will be one turn slower. I have tested this once with the FoW´s and sometimes i had the problem not to have any blue card to pitch. The duress does not ever backfire on me. Lim Dul´s is a multicolor vampiric (A little better) but requires on-color mana so the off-color moxen and crypt doesn´t help here, probably slows down a little. Plus this is card is not cardadvantage unlike tainted pact and others. I have played with the Lim Dul´s so many times and i always begin with 4 and in the end i have 0 i the deck. Probably the same thing will happen again. What is the advantages/Disadvantages with the Lim Dul´s Vault. Advantage: Dig thru the whole deck. Stack 5 next cards. No cards in graveyard or out of game. Disadvantge: Multicolor BU Cards on top of library (No card in hand). What do you think? Am i out of track, i don´t know !! I think 4 wish might be too much. Testing should be done with 1-4, of course, but I think 2-3 would be the optimal configuration. It is good, though, because wish can serve a dual purpose: providing answers/resiliency to hate, while helping to combo off more reliable by acting as multiples of your combo creatures.
start of wishboard suggestions: so far we have: 1 hermit druid 1 phyrexian dreadnaught
I also suggest: 1 uktabi orangutang (sex monkey can rape things: platinum angel, damping matrix) 1 faceless butcher About providing answers/resiliency! The deck has 2 different win conditions (maindeck) so i don´t belive that i need more maindeck answers (Living Wish) to make the deck more stable. If somebody have a deck with both artifact hate & Graveyard hate in maindeck then i am really unlucky. After the first match i have the possibility to sideboard/Countersideboard (Lucky me!) so it shouldn´t be a problem. I cut the wishes even in my 2 Land Belcher they didn´t do nothing. Double post merged.
-Jacob
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / GhoulNought ( A new deck based on Illusionary Mask ).
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on: July 10, 2004, 04:50:48 am
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I fully understand what you all have in mind and i promise i´ll test it even if i doubt it will give result. If you run a full set of Living Wish and use the wish first turn. Second turn Hermit resolve. Opponent plays fire. I draw a wish! What happens now? What i am trying to say is it probably will be a totally dead card many times. Then Brainstorm and shuffle it away. The beauty of the card, though, is that you can configure your sideboard such that it is never dead. See: Volrath's Stronghold Volrath's Shapeshifter Apprentice/Doomed Necromancer etc. Yes its true, but the deck already got enough ´I win cards maindeck´ so i don´t think i need more in sideboard, plus it´s much slower. It´s true it´s possible to brainstorm it away but then it´s like having 3 dead cards in the library except when i need an answer. In this scenario and many more the tainted is a much more Active card vs Living Wish. What does the other people here on TMD think about the discussion of Living Wish? Can we discuss this and close the discussion of Living Wish. But what I am trying to say is that control decks would have to board both forms of hate, both artifact and graveyard to deal with the problem (except STP), and having the masknaught plan screwed over by Rack and Ruin, or STP has no effect on you being able to combo out with Hermit. Control decks can waste all of the resources they want on the masknaught combo and you will still be able to use the Hermit plan hitch free. STP kills your Hermit before you can even tap it, as does Fire/Ice. If I were to SB vs. your deck with an average 4cControl deck, I'd do this... -1 Fire/Ice -1 Decree of Justice -1 Cunning Wish (if running 3) +2 Rack and Ruin +1 StoP That allows me to stop your Hermits faster (aka turn 1 with 3 StoP), and kill naughts/masks. I find that control decks in general are moving away from the grave hate in the sbs. In general yes, though I see a lot of decks around me that still run grave hate mostly because of Welders and Hulk. Vengeur masqué has 11 must counter spells: 3 Volrath's Shapeshipfter 4 Illusionary Mask 4 Survival of the Fittest
I would have said 5 for Ghoulnought : 1 Krosan Reclamation 4 Illusionary Mask Ahh yes, but by the time they play Krosan Reclamation, you've already allowed them to activate a Hermit, therefore giving them access to at least 4 Cabal Therapies, leaving you dead in the water. As i said before 4c Control is one of the hardest matchups and your sideboarding seems OK. But the Fire/Ice is really nice against this deck too, possibility to kill Hermit and Tap the Dreadnought or Ghoul. I found this very anoying when playing against Keeper/4c Control. What has been discussed in 48 posts, of course when a new deck idea is born people just spam a lot and give ideas. It´s good but many ideas is just plain brainstorming and not tested in reality so much of it is probably mumbo jambo. This is what we have discussed so far. Let´s see... Discussed Cards: Impulse Thirst For Knowledge Tainted Pact Intuition Living Wish (Put one Hermit and one Dreadnought in sideboard) Survival Of The Fittest Lim Dul´s Vault Discussed cards that´s a potiental threat: Null Rod Rack & Ruin Damping Matrix Swords To Plowshares Fire/Ice Jester´s Cap FoW Goblin Welder Mana issues: 22 Lands Include ESG Sol Ring Other winconditions: Tendrils Dragon Power Artifact/Monotlith/Stroke How many of each card: 2-X Animate Spells 1-2 Krosan Reclamation How should the disruption look like: For the moment. 3 Duress 2 Cabal Therapy Really Hard Matchups: 4c Control StaX Maybe i have forgot something but this is pretty much what have been discussed so if we take all the facts and begin to discuss what can be done. I have worked with this deck in a couple of months or so and i don´t belive it´s in perfect shape yet so what shall be done to perfect the deck. Has anybody tried the deck yet and can give some comments how it feels. Reminds me a little of a deck I used to toy around with.
My main question is, why run so many conditional/suboptimal cards when all you need to combo out is Will. You explained it yourself You talked about conditional/suboptimal cards, The Animate Spells works as 4 extra Hermits if they get killed (Except Stp). You want a animate spell asap so you can combo out without Krosan R. You have the possibility to Reanimate opponents creatures (Welder, Tog). Just think of how fun it could be to have an active Hermit and animate you opponents Tog, I´ll remove my grave 25 damage in you. Possibility to put 2 animate spells with the same cc on top of your library (Cotv). In case of much life loss you can use Exhume instead of Reanimate. Their is so many reasons to have 4 Animate Spells + Will. If you build the deck just around Krosan i think it won´t work at all. That´s just my opinion but i ain´t sure of course. I have tested with 2 and it didn´t work, so if i will build it around Will then it probably won´t work at all. Posts merged. Do not double post. Never, ever, ever, quadruple post.
-Jacob
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / GhoulNought ( A new deck based on Illusionary Mask ).
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on: July 09, 2004, 11:28:56 am
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I'm fairly confident from my experiences running mask decks that you'd be doing yourself a favor if you tested the following configuration
maindeck: 3 druid 3 dreadnought 4 living wish
sideboard: 1 druid 1 dreadnought
this would also allow you to do things like wish for strip mine to counter that pesky maze of ith that just means you loose sometimes. I just feel like this would make you almost always go off on turn 2 or 3 because you could be virtually assured with essentially 7 of each in your deck that you would draw the druid or the dreadnought when you wanted it. turn one wish, turn two druid, turn three win is alot better then sitting there waiting to draw one or trying to mull into one. Considering how strongly your deck is based on creatures I just don't see how living wish would ever be dead for you. I mean it's always less dead then a second druid, and a 36/36 is gonna win anyway. also it lets you get back guys who got sent farming which would help the 4CC matchup some.
Hale I fully understand what you all have in mind and i promise i´ll test it even if i doubt it will give result. If you run a full set of Living Wish and use the wish first turn. Second turn Hermit resolve. Opponent plays fire. I draw a wish! What happens now? What i am trying to say is it probably will be a totally dead card many times. And if somebody kills my Hermit (except STP) then i have the possibilty to Animate my hermit. So if the first one dies then i have 7 ways to get a hermit in to play anyway.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: A look at the other Maskbuilds!
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on: July 09, 2004, 09:14:08 am
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The Vengeour Mask has about the same must counters as the Ghoulnought deck.
Vengeur masqué has 11 must counter spells: 3 Volrath's Shapeshipfter 4 Illusionary Mask 4 Survival of the Fittest I would have said 5 for Ghoulnought : 1 Krosan Reclamation 4 Illusionary Mask Both decks suffer from the same hate Artifact removal and Graveyard hate. Actually, I lost a lot of games to mana screw (Wasteland mainly). Let's have look at the last 4 tournies I played Vengeur Masqué in 2003: 5-2-0 2 losses due to mana issues (screw and timely Wasteland) 7-0-0 can't complain here 7-1-1 lost to multiple Wasteland 5-1-1 lost to combo fair and square The really big difference here is the speed! Vengeour Mask needs a lot more time to set up the kill and that gives the opponent more time to find answers or even kill ya. It happened only once out of 4 tournies. What do you think about this people? I think it's a combo deck, while Vengeur Masqué isn't. Yes it´s true this is plain combo we are talking about. Depending on the deck you are facing the Hermit Druid is a must counter. If this resolves then you guaranteed have a disruption (Cabal Therapy) before you go off. If you let the Hermit resolve turn one, then it´s possible to go off turn 2 with backup, i consider this a must counter if you haven´t got Swords or Fire/Ice. Depending on who starts you will only have one land on my turn 2 and that´s not even mana for Mana Drain and my therapy will likely hit yor FoW. Yes i see that you have made good results with Vengeour Mask but that was a year ago, how does it work in the current metagame?
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / GhoulNought ( A new deck based on Illusionary Mask ).
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on: July 09, 2004, 06:00:30 am
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Reminds me a little of a deck I used to toy around with. My main question is, why run so many conditional/suboptimal cards when all you need to combo out is Will. You explained it yourself Silverbullets - The Bullet is Yawgmoth´s Will!. I haven´t explained it yet so i´ll explain it now. After you have activated the druid, played Therapy, and when you play your Krosan Reclamation you put the i win the game card "WILL" on top of your library. When you play Will you can play all cards in your library and the nice part here is that you know can play the Chain Of Vapor to get rid of any pesky permanent and then just combo out. All you need is Druid, and then you flashback reclamation for Will and a random card (I always took Time Walk or Lotus depending in my mana resources if 2 open take walk, if three just flashback the reclamation. If less mana left either lotus of some disruption spell) Then you can win with any combo that your deck can include. I used Grim/Power Artifact because it only used one dead card and I wanted to play with Cunning Wishes anyway. But there are better options now. You could use Tendrils, or even just a single Burning Wish will do the job (with a Tendrils in your Side). This makes the deck more one-sided, and often a turn slower, and easier to hate out, but it also gives you mass of space to add anything to prevent that. And you dodge swords/bounce issues I just wanted to make sure if you thought of this possibilty too, I'm not sure if it's better, but if one has potential, than the other might just have too. Koen Ok, The Yawgmoth´s will is a mid, lategame option. On turn 2-3 you got to stick with the Animate Spells. And i haven´t built the deck totally on Krosan Reclamation it is a kind of backup route. Like i said before that in 70% of the cases when i Activate the Druid i already have a Animate Spell on hand or the Will. I have played with 2 Animate Spells but i didn´t work my way. In my opinion you must have 4 Animate Spells to make this deck playable. You can´t build the deck just around the Krosan cause then you are really F*cked. There is another problem that we have discussed , Cotv - If someone put Cotv on (1) Then you have different CC spells to choose from Exhume, Will depending on the mana you have. If you going to put 2 cards on the top of your library (Shuffle) then you want 2 cards with the same CC so you have 2 i win the game cards on top depending on the mana you have. I do not recommend to put Time Walk, Yawgmoth´s Will on top just to make it faster if you aren´t 100% sure it will resolve. I made this against a Landstill deck at the Swedish Masters and he topdecked Force Of Will so i was out. Always put 2 threats on top then it´s possible to win even if he topdecks. I have tried to play with 2 Krosan R. Maindeck but when i draw these or get them in my opening hand it´s like a Mulligan. The deck already has a few "Dead Cards" and there isen´t room for more. I would like to have one more Ghoul and perhaps one more Krosan R. but the deck will draw many dead hands. I agree with VGB. living wish also gives you an answer to nullrod or damping matrix, both of which can hurt this deck a lot. if you rework the side to include wish targets you could run alot of good stuff in there for problem cards/matches. Null Rod isen´t a big problem for this deck cause it can win with the Suthered Ghoul. I have played against many Fish decks and the speed of this deck is their fall. The must mulligan to a Null Rod to be sure and even then i can win with the Ghoul. Have you played vs Slaver variants? They can always board Jester's Cap if worst comes to worst. :lol:
But seriously, how resilliant to hate is it? Even 4 LED/Wish Long had Duress/FoW/Xantids and still lost plenty of games. Rector had Cabal Therapy/FoW and still lost to Coffin Purge. What happens If your Krosan Rec's get RFG? Don't you just lose? About the Jester Cap, It won´t happen, i haven´t seen this card in a long time. You just have to play the deck and try it out, of course this deck can loose too, i haven´t said that it wins all the time. What other maskbuilds do we have and what do they suffer. Vengeur Mask SpoilsMask (Tainted Mask) Ninja Mask Ghoulnought If we look at the different builds of Vengeour Mask they contain 4 Force Of Will´s or 4 FoW and 4 Duress. And this deck contains 3 Duress and 2 Cabal Therapy. The Vengeour Mask has about the same must counters as the Ghoulnought deck. Both decks suffer from the same hate Artifact removal and Graveyard hate. Both decks can win instant (Shapeshifter + Phage) kill. Ghoulnought with the Suthered Ghoul. The really big difference here is the speed! Vengeour Mask needs a lot more time to set up the kill and that gives the opponent more time to find answers or even kill ya. And the shapeshifter combo is even more disruptable than the Hermit combo. All the usual graveyard hate works and even a wasteland can make you sad. The spoilsmask and Tainted Mask suffers from all the arifact hate their is so this deck isen´t even discussable. What do you think about this people? The deck looks interesting. You mentioned that 4cc was a tough matchup, but what about other common decks? I would imagine that the fow+rod packed by most aggro decks nowadays could pose some problems, and although the tendrils story was awsome, isn't pure combo usually faster? The problem isen´t really FoW+Rod cause the deck can handle both of them. The hardest matchups is 4c Control and Stax. You win with a creature so Swords and Fire/Ice are really awesome against this deck. Swords kills Dreadnought and Ghoul. Fire/Ice can tap your big guys or kill the Hermit before it losses summoning sickness. Against Stax you really need to win that DICE to have a chance. Living Wish - This is really to slow for this deck. This deck is all about speed and Living Wish is just to slow. Is there any Tier1 type 1 deck that runs Living Wish? Belcher! But is it Tier1? The answer to you question whould be "Worse". The speed argument is valid, and I was expecting it - nonetheless, playing Hermit via Illusionary Mask costs the same, does it not (2 for mask, 2 for druid)? Also, would Draw7 run 4 x Burning Wish if it could? Of course, even without 4 x LED - the potential to employ 5 demonic tutors is just too powerful to resist. Just because no deck currently breaks Living Wish doesn't mean that it can't happen - especially when that deck looks like it could use 4 additional creature DT's (assuming what you are looking for the majority of the time is Hermit, and sometimes to some smaller extent Dreadnought). To present one last argument in favor of Living Wish, consider this scenario: you have a resolved Hermit in play, and your opponent sends it farming before it goes active. The number of Druids you have tutorable drops by a much lower percentage than if you were not playing Living Wish at all. I will test this, maybe your upto something. I Think i have discussed this before but i don´t want more NON-active cards in the deck. If i would replace my Tainted Pacts with Wish i personally think they would do nothing. The deck is already so tight so i can´t put in more non-active cards in it. Maybe one wish but that´s it! Posts Merged.
DO NOT POST SIX TIMES IN A ROW.
-JAcob
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / GhoulNought ( A new deck based on Illusionary Mask ).
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on: July 08, 2004, 12:09:17 pm
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Before Kee-per (thats its name, get over it) got big again I'd say this had a great shot at being a rogue powerhouse... but the re-emergance of swords to plowshares makes this kind of strategy a lot more dangerous. True!, Keeper is one of the hardest matchups for this deck, Decks that packs Swords and Fire/Ice are really hard matchups but that doesn´t say that the deck won´t work in the current meta. I have tested the deck against keeper and it was hard but not impossible. The deck can combo out turn 2 with backup of disruption ( Cabal Therapy ) and that´s hard for any deck out there. Against any control deck this deck puts a lot of pressure, there is so many must counters and disruption so it´s hard for them to keep up. Living wish ? I don´t really get what i should use it for , if you could give me some advice what i should wish for?
Survival Of The Fittest - I already got an engine in the deck that is much faster (Hermit Druid) . So this one doesn´t belong in this deck. Survival/Living Wish aren't necessarily engines as much as they are redundancy for the creatures in your deck - although Survival does function as an engine with Squee. Survival also tends to work better with Volrath's Shapeshifter, though. If you sideboard a single Dreadnought and Druid and play 4 wishes, not only do you render them somewhat resistant to Swords, you essentially run 7 maindeck copies of each. With Wish, you can also fetch bullets such as Shaman (the Gorilla or Viridian kind), or even things like Shapeshifter for grins. I was asking your opinion as to the impact these cards would have on your build for better or worse, as you are vastly more conversant with this deck than I. Living Wish - This is really to slow for this deck. This deck is all about speed and Living Wish is just to slow. Is there any Tier1 type 1 deck that runs Living Wish? Belcher! But is it Tier1? The answer to you question whould be "Worse". Silverbullets - The Bullet is Yawgmoth´s Will!. I haven´t explained it yet so i´ll explain it now. After you have activated the druid, played Therapy, and when you play your Krosan Reclamation you put the i win the game card "WILL" on top of your library. When you play Will you can play all cards in your library and the nice part here is that you know can play the Chain Of Vapor to get rid of any pesky permanent and then just combo out. Double post merged
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / GhoulNought ( A new deck based on Illusionary Mask ).
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on: July 08, 2004, 08:59:43 am
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Excellent deck!
What are your thoughts on using Living Wish or Survival? Thx! Living wish ? I don´t really get what i should use it for , if you could give me some advice what i should wish for? Survival Of The Fittest - I already got an engine in the deck that is much faster (Hermit Druid) . So this one doesn´t belong in this deck.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / GhoulNought ( A new deck based on Illusionary Mask ).
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on: July 08, 2004, 08:43:58 am
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Because Hermit Druid is a one-card combo. Activate, then on your next upkeep flashback Krosan Reclamation to put an animate spell on top of your library. One-card combo, which is what makes this deck worth investigating. I just want to notice that in 70 % of the games i got the animate spell on my hand and the Krosan is just a backup plan if it got countered or disrupted in some way. That´s why i run 4 copies of animate spells so i´ll get one asap.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / GhoulNought ( A new deck based on Illusionary Mask ).
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on: July 08, 2004, 08:26:23 am
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@Methuselahn That's what it seems like in the first place, but it' simply not true. What hits artifacts does not hit the druid combo and vise versa. If you see hate against one combo, go for the other one! I have played against this deck and even if you would happend to know what you're up against it is more or less impossible to sidebaord against. You cannot sidebaord against both combo's unless you have Swords to Plowshares.
Now, what I don't like with this deck is Tainted Pact. Say that you want to go for a Druid since you know that will win you the game and before you find a Druid you turn over the Ghoul. You cannot continue searching for a Druid, so should you stop then and get a Gouhl in your hand? Doesn't seem like an option to me, so you'll have to continue. But then you'll render your whole Druid combo uesless since you removed your only Ghoul. I would go for Thirst for Knowledge since you have so many cards that you want to get down in the graveyard. It just seems to help the concept even though it doesn't dig that deep. Ok, we have some alternatives like Impulse, Thirst For Knowledge, Tainted Pact. Wollblad if you ignore the part of flipping Suthered Ghoul with the Tainted Pact what card had you choosen ? Cause when you play the deck this doesn´t happen, you even have the Brainstorms that can put the Ghoul back. So if we analyse the cards: 2U Thirst For Knowledge - Draw three cards and then discard an artifact or two other cards. This would be discarding a mana artifact or a combo piece or discard 2 other cards like Ghoul + A card or 2 other cards. You don´t want to discard a combo piece if you don´t have multipels and if you discard 2 cards then this isen´t even card advantage. This is a 3cc spell and i don´t think it belongs in this deck. It´s possible for the opponent to use graveyard removal during the match so you can´t win with the Hermit combo and in a Welder meta you don´t want to discard artifacts when you play with Dreadnoughts. 1U Impulse - Look at the top 4 cards and put one in your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library. Personally i think this is better than the TFK in this deck. You got the possibility to choose from 4 cards and put the Ghoul and Breath on the bottom of your library. This one digs 1 card more and costs 1cc less then the TFK. 1B Tainted Pact - This one digs about 8 cards sometimes less and sometimes more. We are playing combo here so of course this isen´t 100% stable but almost. You want the combo pieces and you want them fast. This one goes twice as deep as Impulse for the same CC. This card totally rocks in this deck cause if you go either Hermit kill or Dreadnought kill and play a Tainted Pact it happens many times that the opposite combo cards flips first and i am very happy that i didn´t have to draw all that crap.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / GhoulNought ( A new deck based on Illusionary Mask ).
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on: July 08, 2004, 07:42:58 am
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It looks like the deck will suffer splash damage from the things that harm both Dragon and other artifact decks. This being graveyard hate and artifact hate... rod, rackNruin, Matrix, etc. It just doesn't seem like 3 Duress, 2 Therapy and 1 Vapor is enough to protect your combo. First game they have their wishes ( If not maindecked hate ) to get an answer and this deck is so explosive so you will probably win on speed. Second game they´ll have to sideboard against both combos or just sideboard against the combo that is hardest for their matchup. Many many times when i have played this deck i won the first match with dreadnoughts, people begins to crazy sideboard against artifacts and then i´ll just win with the Ghoul. It´s hard to sideboard against this deck cause you win by 2 different combos and people have to sideboard both artifact removal and graveyard hate. One more reminder is that Dragon is a pretty much dead deck so people doesn´t have that much sideboard against dragon anymore. Null Rod and Rack & Ruin, what do i care i´ll just animate my Ghoul. After sideboard i have answers to all these cards, you just have to countersideboard. Give the deck a try before you throw it in the thrashcan.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / GhoulNought ( A new deck based on Illusionary Mask ).
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on: July 08, 2004, 06:18:43 am
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Illusionary Mask ´ The forgotten & Lost Artifact ´Decks containing Illusionary Mask hasen´t been seen in a long time so here is a totally new Mask deck ´ Ghoulnought ´ . It´s based around the the old Tainted Mask and the extended deck Angry Hermit. The deck seems to work good in this metagame, but it seems to have some problems against Stax if you haven´t got a very good starting hand of course. I have played it in tournaments and 2/3 times i got to the Top8. And here in Sweden/Gothenburg we have a pretty solid metagame so can the deck make any good results here then it should work everywhere. I have played decks containing illusionary mask for 4 years and tried all archetypes and made many by myself and this archetype has solved the problems that makes the other mask decks unplayable (except shapeshifter builds). The deck has a secondary win condition that isen´t an artifact and wins the same turn as i resolves. The deck is as fast as Dragon or even faster. So all Maskplayers here is a new design of a Mask deck to try out. Deckname: GhoulNought Deckcreator: Jarmo LaakkonenMaindeck:The Combos:4 Hermit Druid 1 Sutured Ghoul 1 Krosan Reclamation 1 Dragon Breath 3 Reanimate 2 Exhume 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought 4 Illusionary Mask Blue search/Broken:4 Brainstorm 1 Time Walk 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Chain Of Vapors Disruption:3 Duress 2 Cabal Therapy Black search/Broken:2 Tainted Pact 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Yawgmoth´s Will Mana acceleration:1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Black Lotus 1 Mana Crypt Lands:4 Bayou 4 Underground Sea 3 Polluted Delta 2 City Of Brass 2 Bloodstained Mire Sideboard:3 Xantid Swarm 2 Hurkyl´s Recall 3 Pernicious Deed 2 Lighting Greaves 2 Coffin Purge 1 Ray of Revelation 2 Metagame Slots I´ll go thru all the card choices so you all know what i have tested and what results the card had.! * 4 Hermit Druid I'll run four of these of course, you want to resolve one of these the first turn. Not much to talk about here! * 1 Sutured Ghoul I'll run just 1 of this one cause you don´t want have 1 or 2 of these in your hand. The only problem is if you get the one and only on starting hand without a brainstorm. But this have never been a problem. So i´ll stick with one. * 1 Krosan Reclamation I´ll run just 1 of this one too cause you don´t want multipels in your starting hand. It´s possible to have one extra in sideboard against controldecks. * 1 Dragon Breath Not much too say, haste to your Suthered Ghoul. Possible to hardcast on your dreadnoughts or hermit druids. * 2 Reanimate, 2 Exhume I have chosen to run 2 of each, you will want to have one of these asap so you can combo out. Why 2 of each why not 4 reanimate? I tried this out and when aggrodecks hits you hard & fast you won´t have the life to animate the ghoul. You take damage from fetchlands & Crypt too. It´s good against the Cotw too. I´ll tell you a story against a Tendrils deck later. * 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, 4 Illusionary Mask One of the combo parts. Not much to say here, you can remove the dreadnoughts to the Suthered Ghoul for a 48/48 Trample/Haste monster. * 4 Brainstorm This card works so fine and 4 is needed. Finds the combo parts or hides cards. Possibilty too put back Ghoul, Breath and other junk you don´t need. * 1 Time Walk, 1 Ancestral Recall Just broken! * 1 Mystical Tutor Maybe will be replaced, but it can get Ancestral, Animation spell, Yawgmoth´s Will. * 1 Chain Of Vapors This has to be in there, it´s a answer to all perms there is. It can even save your mask, dread from a R&R or a DISK blow out. Is there a P.Angel or any other nasty artifact or enchanment then you can go Activate Druid and play Will, play Vapor and do the thing. * 3 Duress, 2 Cabal Therapy I´ll want to have 4 Duress but 3,2 seems to be the best configuration after all. When you play against control it often happens that you play out 2 druids and when you activate the druid and play the first Therapy you probably go for FoW, If you take out his force and see that he has one more answer then you can sac the other druid and take out the second answer before comboing out. * 3 Tainted Pact I´ll want 4 of this one to, maybe switch the Mystical for the fourth Tainted, but i am not sure yet. I have tried Impulse and Thirst for Knowledge in this place but they don´t just fit, TFK is card advantage but it doesn´t dig deep enough. The Tainted digs about 8 cards and the cards i have four of is the needed cards. So in the end tainted seems to be the best alternative. * 1 Vampiric Tutor, 1 Demonic Tutor, 1 Yawgmoth´s Will These are just the broken cards that black has to offer. * Mana acceleration: 5 Moxen, Lotus, Mana Crypt why no Sol Ring? I have tried out the Sol Ring but didn´t like it at all it kinda slowed me down. First turn i want to drop a land and a 0cc artifact boost so i can drop a Mask, Druid, Tainted, Demonic or a 1cc spel. To play Land + Sol Ring feels lame, You got to do better then that. * Lands: Not much to say here, it works very good, tried to make it work as good as it gets with the Tainted pacts too, Could improve it a little i think. 5 Fetch seems to be good, want these with the brainstorm and to smooth out the colors. * Sideboard choices is discussable. I haven´t made any match analysis yet so you have to wait for that. Tendrils Story!When i played against a Tendrils deck in the Swedish Masters. ME: Polluted Delta,Fetch Bayou, Mox Sapphire, Mana Crypt, Mask + Hermit Druid. I got a pretty sweat hand but only junk left in my hand. Me 19 Life. HIM: This was a long one , He goes off first turn with Timetwister and drops a lot of moxen, Rituals and goes for Tendrils for 18 damage. ME: (1 Life) Upkeep: Survived the Mana Crypt. I got a sweat new 7 card hand. He knows that i play Mask+Dread and he´s at 38 Life so it takes 4 strikes with a Dreadnought. So he kinda smiles :lol: at me. So i play a Underground sea, Flip the druid and he still smiles :lol: . Activate, i tell him that i have no basic lands in the deck so is it possible to just put the chunk into the graveyard? He says OK!. I´ll flashback my therapy and say FoW, that´s the only thing he could run that could stop me. He shows me crap. Of course i got the exhume when he used the twister. I´ll play exhume. I put my Suthered Ghoul in play, remove 4 Dreadnoughts and put dragon breath on the Ghoul. He begins to read on all the cards and doesn´t seem to understand. Then i Attack for 48 damage so he´s at -10 life. The smile  went away and he talked about this all day. Of course the deck could be improved but i am stuck! What do you people here on TMD think about it. What changes could be made with maindeck or sideboard to make it even better. We have about 3 Maskplayers in Sweden so the development of mask builds is kinda slow. I am probably the only one who is trying to develop new archetypes in Sweden.
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