I'd disagree that it is inherent, unless you're playing it at 0. In fact, against a deck like Terra Nova, it's one of the best cards. It lets you clear Spheres cheap and get onto your cheap mana plan.

Typically the under powered list requirement is no p9, time vault, bazaar of baghdad, or mishra's workshop. I've occasionally seen others added but those are stalwarts.

Really wish we had a real game three. The first two were really close. Was a great match either way and I was glad that you went on to take it down.

Roland I believe.

I appreciate the support guys. I love the community and would certainly love to join the ranks of the VSL but I think they are looking for more star power still. I definitely like to play the deck I think is best suited for the room, regardless of whether or not it contains Mana Drain (my personal bias). It certainly has worked for me over the past few years.

Personally, I think Reid Duke is the best fit if it works with his schedule. He has recent IRL Vintage success and is a well known MtGO personality. Plus, he is super informative when approached and thus I believe he would also add great commentary, which is something I think the VSL just lost with the departure of Dave.

Think I might make the trip down for this. Do I have to pre-reg or anything like that Cal?

You should explore Tasigur over Oona as your Dragon kill.. He's won me many games

As far as I know, DoT is legal on Friday and thus will be legal for this.

QFT, was going to post the exact same thing. Delving past Sphere/LSG is way bigger.

Leyline stops Will, Crucible, and Delve cards in addition to the mirror. Not that any of those are necessarily a problem, but they do get turned off by Leyline pretty well.

"Hey Tom, I never win anything big"

Last 3 events Nick DiJohn has split the prizes...Not buying that anymore buddy! Great job. The innovation of Cavern in Forgemaster from you and Keith is great and is consistently putting up numbers. Glad to see it!

Priest decks usually have Misstep. The time you spend investing into finding Darkblast and casting two is significant. Then if they Misstep you it's really tough to come back. I found Murderous Cut and other spells to be more reliable at actually answering Priest despite being harder to actually get into hand. Also, a lot of decks on Priest are also on Rest in Peace. I was on 4 Darkblast last time I played Dredge and got crushed by any UWx deck because of Priest. I'm not sure that we can afford to be all in on Darkblast. It's why I borrowed 60 cards to play Mentor at EE and not Dredge (I haven't found a suitable answer yet either).

Oh in that case I'm out

I'm 100% in for this. Let's have a party, because there ain't no party like a Nick Coss party.

I'd show up. The store is nice and the staff is very good. They were a newer store in the beginning and had limited inventory for Vintage players. I hope that has been addressed as time has progressed and that they start running events again!

JACO I assume that Delve spells might also have had some role in the consideration of Grafdiggers Cage vs Tormod's Crypt. Against Gifts, Crypt is quite good still as it cuts a lot of piles off.

Congratulations Brian. I've always told you that I thought you were an amazing player and this proves it. You've certainly set the bar for what Mentor decks should be doing going forward. I'm very happy to see the success. Look forward to casting Chalice at your hand in the near future...and then flipping Blightsteel to Dark Confidant. We've had some epic matches since your return to M:tG and great times externally of events. Look forward to the next adventure with you.

Ugh this is running against the Black Magic Event. I already promised Cal I would hit that up. At least I will make it to TDG next week.

Dragon Shields w/ Perfect Fits. I split all KMC sleeves every time I use them.

Are we really citing the MTGO results as being relevant to real life Vintage? The dearth of Wasteland in the metagame (hopefully fixed with the coming re-release of tempest block) combined with infinite bugs on key cards (Tangle Wire most notably) combined with Bomberman being completely unplayable due to the clock+clicks means that key portions of the metagame are absent at all times. I look at the daily results and laugh that so much Pyro + Spell decks are there in such absurd numbers, because I know it is not indicative of anything other of what to prepare for if I want to play on MTGO. Actual events play out significantly different from the metagame on MTGO. Cruise was busted and I think we found that out externally of MTGO, though it certainly reinforced the position pretty well because of the lack of predators.

Delver didn't exist as a deck until two years ago or so. Citing Gush's performance isn't relevant to this discussion as the games were significantly different when Gro was dominant. The game is different now and then. You can draw upon the history, but pretend it's a definitive parallel as you are and you are likely to make mistakes. Treasure Cruise dominated 2014, not Gush or Delver. Those were just the best associates for Cruise. We'll see how things unfold in the coming year, but I think any Mentor deck that tries to be Delver will give up a lot against Shops and be cutting off its hand to feed its face. I look forward to you trying to prove otherwise.

Greg and Brian (oath x2) split the finals after slaying Sam (merfolk) and Ashok (dd). I wasn't there but got the breakdown.

That only means your deck is better for the VSL. Which while quite entertaining and great for exposure, it is clearly not a representation of the format nor a guide for how to build or play the decks in question. Further, your claim just illustrates that neither you nor Rich came upon a constitution that could overcome Delver reliably without an early Mentor, not that it didn't exist.

I've seen what you stated. I disagree with the premise that bigger mana decks are inherently weak against Delver. The ones I saw were playing things like Will, Jace, Gifts, or combinations and I've found that none are really necessary with Mentor. They are clunky and super awkward when Mentor isn't out early - I agree with both you and Rich there. It seems to me that stems from people being too focused on getting triggers off it and not just letting the card do the work. It is absurdly powerful. Let it close games and it will. If you give up everything and the kitchen sink to try to burst in one turn you just become a slower Belcher deck. If you try to add a ton of back up plans you have awkward hands that don't go anywhere. I don't mind passing multiple turns with the card in play in any match up as I chunk them down. People have died to Trinket Mage many a time, this card is quite better at that aspect.

A Delver variant still has issues with Delver playing underneath it. You fall prey to the same pitfalls as the bigger mana decks unless the Delver player has a weak hand. They can get to the Tempo game faster and have more resources to fight to protect their cards than you do. Even +1 Mox and +1 CMC is significant. Sure, if you can lend Mentor and get triggers and survive two turns/time walk you will win, but so do the big mana decks. You have slightly better draw steps and perhaps better filtering and trade off early pressure and control of the mid game.

Regrowth requires green which sends us into UWg land which is awkward or into four colors which is likely worse. I agree that is not a great place to be.

I like a lot about Kevin's deck, but am wary about Remora playing such a prominent role. When Vintage games were won primarily through spells I was a huge fan of Remora and put many tournaments away with its power. Like many of its brethren, the times have changed its efficacy. We live in a world now defined by creatures. It's arrived to the point that one of the best creatures in Vintage history is at most an afterthought to the meta. Dark Confidant used to survive forever because of a lack of removal while providing a clock and taxing an unused resource (life total). Now, there is ubiquitous removal in main decks, blockers that trade favorably, and the life total has become more precious than ever. The format has shifted. I think he had a lot of strong ideas that could potentially go somewhere, but was held back by his past associations with some really awesome cards that haven't kept up with the power creep well. I'll admit firsthand I'm not familiar with his meta-game so it's quite possible that Remora is great there. Looking at the format overall, and anticipating what I would expect to see at something like champs, I'd be very wary of playing the card. I think the three of us build our decks for that environment and then tailor them to fit a specific event/meta that we go to.

In short, we've come to different conclusions. I've had similar discussions with Rich about this as well. We are working on scheduling a testing session to derive some more concrete data to discuss as opposed to bandying about ideas on TMD with no common point of reference.

You can play a Bomberman style deck without Trinket Mage or even Salvagers itself. It was done for a little while in certain versions of Blue Angels. I think there is definite strength in considering a plan that is reactive and robust that closes with alacrity. Mentor removes the need for Lotus to be present and the inclusion of Spellbomb in lists because of the sheer velocity it brings to the table. Again, I hope to unveil what I think will become the Standard for which Mentor decks will fall be built as going forward in the near future.

While it's possible that your list is stronger against Delver, Storm's point (and one I find myself agreeing with) is that your game elsewhere suffers significantly because of the concessions you are making to Delver. By trimming down so heavily on your mana base, you weaken your Shops game. You are locked into the same Delver plan with a built in Sphere on your Pyromancer and no Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, or Trygon Predator. Those are significant changes to the match up. You can fall prey to competent Wasteland play and can lose the ability to Gush into the 3rd mana source from two lands that you desperately need. If the Delver deck can play underneath you and get to leveraging Tempo while you still dig for your threat, they can apply their game fairly easily. I understand that you put a lot of work into developing this, but I'm not seeing the same results you are whenever I play with/against this style of Mentor deck. I personally have found Mentor to perform significantly better behind Cavern of Souls in a more Bomberman style deck that features the full artifact mana compliment, Top, and Academy. Suddenly your Shops match up is bolstered because of the more robust mana base and lack of a tertiary color. Meanwhile, typical blue strategies have a significant difficulty with Cavern. Plenty of people have shown how powerful Humans are, and you can look over some of those decks to see some truly powerful cards that really put pressure on opponents. I've personally found this approach to bear the most fruit utilizing Mentor across various match ups while not ignoring any of them. Purchasing my new home visa a vis my collection has hindered me from getting tournament matches with my list due to both card availability and a lack of time to make trips, but I'm very confident in its power level.

I will be there.

It depends what you are doing as your plan. If you want to talk a little about it, I can give you some insight on how to crack Shops as just UW. We've been doing it for years with Bomberman, it's not impossible as UW. That said, Dack Fayden's +1 in other match ups is absurd and might just pull you there separate from the Shop mu, but that's up to you.

It all depends on what the group wants, but you can try some of the DnD games that they put out. They have a lot of story but typically are a little more closed off than a typical home game. I tend to really enjoy the crazy scenario's that players invent. Maybe there is a Skype based game you could look into? It certainly is something that could work with enough effort from the players.

Sample sizes are not even close to getting near a representative amount of indicating the deck's quality. We also can't even know who the opponents are or what their builds are, so we are looking at a lot of raw data that is not really applicable to evaluate. I look at the list and see a BUG Fish deck that hasn't done much to avoid the pitfalls of its predecessors. The deck as presented will either match up with what the opponent is doing and crush inconsolably or have the wrong cards and be crushed. If you can keep this up for another 40-50 matches against tournament caliber decks then I think you might have something. I just don't see that as being realistic. It's ok to lose a game/match, you can not win them all.

I'd buy at least one. I don't know what the back end is but a front end of $1 is more than reasonable as a keepsake from the event. If the back end is reasonable I'd love to see this as a more regular thing for bigger events.

You look great! True story! GGs

I think my assessment of UR Delver is accurate. You must have too because you added Green to shore up that match up, at my behest in the same thread you linked.

I wasn't the only one playing Null Rod. All Terra Nova decks do and they made up a sizeable portion of the meta. Other players have finished well with Stax and Rod aside from me in the past 6 months. Just because you ignore a trend that doesn't fit your narrative doesn't make it go away.