what about Porcelain Legionnaire?

decent defender for all mud creatures, he is not the beater emissary is but easier to be played (mana cost plus throrn/ golem), emissary right now can be the target of metamorph and then she is not that useful.

any comments?

^
i am waiting for these answers too!
furthermore, Max what do you believe about darkblast as a sideboard slot?
does it deserve it with all these snapcasters or it really doesnt matter right now with the printing of Liliana?

@boggyb you are probably right, this is just a thought i have never used it in a real game so thats were the "less possible" thing comes. maybe a rules guru may enlighten us and something about smokestack too!

@Random Noob
  sorry i cant answer your posts as i dont have any feedback using death' s shadow because i disagree with its use theoritically hands down. But this is just my opininon. i am looking forward for more ideas from you though, maybe we can finf another silver bullet or a different strategy for dark tinmes.
@2nd lawl what's your opinion about plunge into darkness? is it playable?
also, have you attented the TDG Summer Open? how did it go, any notable new uses or something else like a mini report? you are the mastermind of this deck waiting for news!

@boggyb: hex is a great anti tool vs MUD (it can pass through lodestone and thorn). till now with the exception of engineered explosives if a MUD palyer sets a chalice at 2 in the first round or even later then it is probably a gg. this type of play is really dangerous and a MUD pilot who knows the way dark times plays will always keep a hand with chalice even if he hasnt got a sphere. with the printing of this card we have a great possibility dodging this crucial play as you can reset chalice. another huge application is vs tangle wire where you still can remove counters and the same is true about smokestack with the exception that the last doesnt see any play right now with the rise of cat stax/MUD sub archetype. remember reseting the counters at the end of their turns or at least at the beginning of your upkeep thus you probably may have some problems with the stack (as i do!). other cunning ways utilising hex vs MUD is blocking with the parasite a greater p/t creature and instantly removing counters from the above cards (or dark depths if you have it in play!) to give a suprise kill to a less skilled player or even going the beatdown route removing counters for marit lage. another thing (but less possible ) you can do is removing counters from chalice the time a player plays a card with less mana cost than the counters setted in chalice to instantly counter it (ex a MUD pilot plays a mana crypt and in response you remove two counters from a chalice set at 2 so you counter mana crypt). in my eyes this creature changed a lot the matchup vs MUD.
another archetype you should use this card is vs blue based decks that heavily rely on planeswalkers to end the game (jace, tezzerret). thus, vampire hexmage and pithing needle may serve this role as well.
other not very applicable uses (considering the meta) is vs decks with powder keg/ ratchet bomb (MUD), gemstone mine (dredge), engineered explosives (trinket mage blue based), aether vial  (aggro decks).
hope these help!

on a sidenote. plunge into darkness is a good card. i assume you mention it as a 1 of. a big problem of this card is the loss of life and the counter war. but it can be a great tool. i havent use it but i will definately give it a try. waiting for other opinions on this card too and some feedback maybe!

in my humble opinion after seeing the shift of meta the cards that we may keep under control (to use or not to use) should be:
crucible of worlds
snuff out
2 emissary of despair

EDIT: Phyrexian Tower

sorry for messing up the thread i just noticed i didnt mention it.

Leyline of the (Null) Rod   
Type Enchantment or Artifact
If Leyline of the (Null) Rod is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.
Activated abilities of artifacts can't be activated.

Every once in a while I hear someone complaining that vintage is dead because some decks are overpowered and can have explosive 1st turns. Well, gencons results may suggest that this is true (dredge has explosive starts however is not the kind of deck that we can say overpowered if we compare it with blue based, ritual based or MUD decks). In addition I heard something about 140 people competed this year in gencon something that implies that vintage is still popular. But aside dredge is there any other competitive deck not using full power? The answer is Null Rod based decks aka noble fish, TMWA, Dark Times. Last year Dark Times top8ed in Gencon. This year I saw something about a GW beats that hasn’t been confirmed yet that top8ed in Gencon. Nevertheless, null rod seems the weakest archetype. There are a few stubborn men/ women that want to play competitive without the use of full power or dredge. Well, I think this is our only chance. I strongly believe that a card like this can give a whole new perspective in vintage and new competitive archetypes would arise. I think this is a well rounded card that has surely its props but some drawbacks too.
1)   costs  . You either play it in the first round or it is much slower that Null Rod.
2)   You NEED to play it in the first round. That means that either you will mulligan aggresively either you auto include 4 serum powder. Either way you choose it means less cards drawn or more dead draws as the game proceeds.
3)   The metagame is allredy prepared for something like this with the exception of MUD.
4)   Either if you play it in the first round nobody can guarantee you that it will stay (something that is true about Null Rod) but it will slow down a little bit your opponents. Even if you immediately draw another one you must wait a number of rounds depending of your mana to replay it. This will slow YOU down.
5)   It wont affect the type II format greatly like Jace for example did.
6)   The other archetypes (with the exception of MUD probably) CAN adapt.
7)   It is colorless so every deck can hardcast it,

That’s all for now. I am sure that if this card comes to your attention you will find many other things to say and that is a well rounded card that may be printed. I think that the format cries out for a card like that. This is a good chance to see pet sligh decks for example reappear in vintage. The variety of decks will change and I believe this is the best for the format. I would like to hear the opininions of more experienced vintage players and I hope this thread will earn the pros’s interest. Well I will have to wait until the dust from this year’s Gencon settles.

P.s. I am sorry in advance to admin/ mods if a card like this has already been proposed. I just say this because this card seems pretty much obvious to my eyes.

Agreed.

@Random Noob i am not going to comment your list because you seek mainly 2nd lawl's advice. this is totally right as he is the creator of this deck and i really appreciate his opinion.


i believe that was me but check the thread that i will post in the card creation forum about my other suggestion that exists in the dark times primer.


@2nd_lawl: well, yesterday when i replied it was too late for me to discuss it more. now after two cups of coffee i can rephrase what i wanted to say.
i love darkblast its a permanent creature destruction as i see it (bobs, revokers, narcos- own bobs vs bridge from below, random x/2s of fish decks). i am not going to say that is youseful against slash panther as i believe we wont have the mana to play it twice vs MUD. So, for me this is a staple. my deepest concern is snuff out. previously, i have mentioned that maybe we can try dismember. this card costs 4 life as snuff out does plus 1 more mana which is obviously CRUCIAL vs MUD. vs fish thet are pretty much the same card. trying dismember should only be a good idea if we have an empty slot vs blue based decks because it can kill bobs and become a mini time walk vs blightsteel. so the pros of dismember are the choice to use it vs blue under the condition that we have an extra slot. just a thought.

in my humble opinion after seeing the shift of meta the cards that we may keep under control (to use or not to use) should be:
crucible of worlds
snuff out
2 emissary of despair

i would not cut imperial seal. we need tutors and this on is as cheap as it gets. except maybe spoils of the vault that in my suprise @Random Noob didnt mention.

A! a last thing. @2nd_lawl have you ever tried to pilot this deck with a transfoming sideboard? a decklist that has similar card choices with dark times i want to mention
owned by Forino (necro anyone?  ) exists in this link http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1475. ofcourse the goal is staying monoblack but have you ever considered it? it should be fun but i am not that good in developoing new strategies. my main concern is against what type of deck this strategy can serve better than the sideboards you have suggested (aside the element of suprise). just a shot in the dark.
Cheers!

well written. waiting for your opinion about trini vs s. sacrament too. p.s. thoughts about phyrexian tower? i will start using it with the beginning of my new playtesting. i am just waiting for the shift of the meta after gencon!

great post 2nd lawl! i was lurking in the dark waiting for more news. obeyline is necessary in this deck i wouldnt change it with anything. keep up the good work. i would like to say that i was really happy that you didnt include trinisphere in your last report but i am afraid that it was just a meta call... currently my side is:
1 pithing needle
2 hex parasite
1 snuff out
1 engineered explosives
1 mana crypt
3 null rod
2 ghost quarter
2 yixlid jailer
1 darkblast
1 sadistic sacrament

i am not sure about my 2 last options but i am very stubborn to exclude them. the thing that makes me sad is that ss doesnt win you the game vs oath (most decklists run 4 creatures +jace + key/vault/beat within). however, compare trini with ss. if you play the first one vs TPS doesnt win you the game by itself, but ss does. thus, i guess that vs TPS you mulligan to leyline. anyway i will post with a more detailed approach as soon as i can.

single card discuccion
 
Legendary Creature- Elf Rogue
Whenever a creature deals combat damage to one of your opponents its controller may draw a card
2/2
Possible candidate for fish instead of cold- eyed selkie?
bad news legendary, no islandwalk
good news it doesnt need exalted, all your creatures may attack so you do maximum  damage and you draw card(s), fish decks usually have more than one creature in play.
Thoughts?

3 edicts and 3 d.depths along with 4 tutors should be enough!

i cant see a reason to add a new color to this deck. my opinion is staying monoblack as our worst matchup remains MUD. why offer new targets to waste/strip effects? the real power this deck has is its basic lands. even fetchlands would have a negative effect.
i believe that the card we must consider is hex parasite: clearly an auto include (probably as a 2 of) and perharps a substitution to emissary of despair as i can see.
pretty much interesting is the card dismember. this may be a candidate of snuff out slot. it hits lodestone (the main reason snuff out made the list), precursor golem, metalworker, steel hellkite (same as snuff out), doesnt hit wurmcoil engine, tarmo (an obvious drawback to snuff out) but it kills opposing confidants. Probably the last wont make the difference including it but it reserves a mention to this thread.
one other card is phyrexian metamorph. again, a card that could battle for the snuff out slot. considering snuff out is used vs fish and MUD this card can be played for its cost vs 8/13 of the resistors and can be a potential target for lodestone, crucible, other MUD fatties plus trygon, predator tarmo, qasali, tiker bot of current meta (Blightsteel Colossus) etc. it can act as a pseudoremoval, has some potentail but i think that i prefer a standard removal.
praetor's grip. i recently made a mini review. the only thing i will add is that it can steal duress too, but i think it is a bit sophisticated, nobody else mentioned it, so no?
thats all from me. hex parasite was a gift for this deck.

@stormanimangus I am a little bit confused so i will let a rules guru to answer this puzzle!

it seems early (without seeing all the other cards of the set) but i believe hex parasite deserves it. the opinions regarding its use vs tangle wire, smokestack, chalice at @2 (it is not a typo as we all know that is the main problem- semi instant loss of this deck vs MUD) as well as that it can pass through lodestone and thorn (these are the 8/13 of the resistors of MUD) intrigue me very much. As we all know until now the sb plan vs MUD is adding:
2 * emissary
2 * quarter
1 * EE
1 * snuff out
1 * mana crypt
From these cards the best canditate to cut is in my opinion emissary of despair. she is a nice clock but her sole use is vs MUD minimising the design space of our sb. i believe that hex parasite deserves these spots as it can play the role of the defender vs golems that emissary couldnt in addition with all the other abilities which are the main reasons we discuss about this card.

In addition this can be useful vs plainswalkers, remora, gemstone mine, aether vial and in extremely rare situations activating Marit Lage as mentioned above or in general strategy discussion. Hex parasite gives us the opportunity to add an extremely useful tool that will help greatly.

Enough about it for now. The other card that may be useful is praetors grip. i am not sure if this one is useful to this deck but it may help us vs blue based decks. some applications:
stealing an orchard from oath
yawgmoths will
tendrils
natures claim or ancestrall recall (we could also play them if thre is black lotus or lotus petal online. extremely rare)
demonic tutor (and play it too!)
vampiric tutor
pithing needle/ crucible/ mana artifact
strip mine/ wasteland
time vault
tinker/fatty
dark confidant
i find this card extremely versatileand may serve double duty either by pseudo sad saccing an opponent to avoid a coup de grace if we already are in a disadvantageous position (for example voltaic key allready on play) or by stealing someting dependind of the game state to use it as soon as possible (see some ideas above).
i find it better than sad sac and it may worth a try as a one of in sb.
looking forward for your opinions.

2nd lawl you are right about it. i have forgotten this because i havent tested the deck since the introduction of SCARS. but i also want to say that i cut necro because of pithing needle. i would use this card for trisk, hellkite, mine/ crucible if they have it online.
without any playtesting i think that dark times has a better chance against the modern workshop decklists (after SCARS). but i m afraid that MBS add nothing to our arsenal. so we stick to your last version.

.
2nd lawl do you believe that this shift to the meta meaning a lot more metalworkers on the board isn t a reasonable answer playing more null rods on the second match specifically when you play first? or we normally board in the usual hate meaning EE, snuff out, 2* quarter,mana crypt, 2* emissary of despair taking out null rod, necro, 5*helm/void?

2nd lawl: have you encountered any metalworker/hellkite MUD list? how is the matchup in there? i still find that the toughest match against us to be brown's MUD list. Looking forward for your new updated primer!

it seems that you missed a card in sb. could you please tell us which is?

as i said before i am only playtesting with the worst case scenario. that means on the draw. so if you think about it in the most games my opponent plays turn one lan mox followed by confidant (blue control viriants, TPS) or something like oath. as you see i am in a really disadvangeous position. it is great on the play when first turn you have played thoughtseize or duress to get rid their explosive start. then we can start thinking about the mana denial strategy. maybe i am not piloting the deck correct but that is why i am discussing with all you guys. but most of the times when on the draw i am trying to play all my other stuff first and almost never played wasteland/ strip before my third turn. i believe that the mana denial plan vs blue is the strategy to go when on the play. that is not true when i play second vs MUD variants where i almost always play a wasteland  effect on the first turn (i pack at least 2 ghost quarter in my sb). vs MUD i prefer playing the helm/ void combo instead of null rod so i dont have an opinion about this strategy. thus the mana denial strategy really works vs MUD. i have asked 2nd lawl to make us a mini report from waterbury to see how his deck looked like with the addition of ghost quarter and how it worked for him but hasnt made one. i cant give you any feedback from tournaments so my opinion is based 100% from playtesting with friends.

null rod has been included in this deck from its beginning. after extensive playtesting i have seen that its use is vs all the blue based decks mainly because of vault/ key, i am playtesting on the draw so i cant really say what is its use when on the play. i dont really like it but as all the others say it is crucial. i am afraid that null based deck havent got any chance against the current meta. as long as wotc doesnt print a null rod with legs or even better something like:

Leyline of the (null) rod 
insert leyline cardtext
insert null rod text

with this adittion i believe that we will see a huge comeback of all null rod based decks. until that day comes i can just only dream.

i believe helm/ void is the way to go considering yawg wil, crucible of worlds, bazaar, three cards that are heavily played in all the decks we have to beat. even if you wont assemble the combo getting helm online it adds dissruption to our game in contrast with your combo pieces that could be easily dead draws. considering other thoughts saying we shoulnt maindeck helm/ void i think that i disagree because in the first game you cannot rely exclusively in cards like null rod. i playtested a lot this deck and i have seen that null rod is great versus the modern mana drain decks (with the exception of de Mars list). i havent found it useful vs MUD as i never use it. i am still wondering if 4 null rod is the right play. i make a contrast with some thoughts of S. Menendian back in the days of suicide black 2k9 primer where he suggested playing 8 duress effects instead of hymn to tourach. we need targeted disruption. as i saw in an other conversation in this forum (i cant remember where) an idea that seems to have potential is using 4 pithing needle (i am not saying maindecking them, i believe that the maindecked list is great). with the disruption package that this deck has, i think p.needle has a chance because it can stop almost the same cards as null rod, it costs one mana less, and stops fetches and jace. i am afraid that null rod is slow because in the second turn we have to play a creature to get this deck going. i still use n.rod (i am trying to find a way to put some ancient tombs in there but it didnt work) but i ll try a different approach. 2nd lawl i havent seen a single answer in all these posts i made but we should keep discussing new ideas if we want to improve this deck.

2nd lawl could you please give us a mini report from waterbury ? any new thoughts about the mono black version? have you tested something new from scars? ratchet trap seems decent but it cant play around cotv at two.

as i mentioned before i ve made several tests with this deck and i believe going monoblack is the best possible route. i may be wrong because i am a little bit stubborn with the mono black all these years but this archetype is competitive. i made some minor changes to the md. here is the list.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Necropotence
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog

from the playtesting, i made i can see that max s built is very close to optimal. i found that TPS is a trouble we can solve mainly with the use of sadistic sacrament thats why i included it in place of crucible. bojuka bog in my opinion is a card we must use. for the sideboard i had a little different approach as i was already using 1 egineered explosives. i playtested really hard vs dredge where i saw that the inclusion of 4 ghost quarter isn t that helpful as i was expecting. so i ended up with 2 ghost quarter in the sideboard mainly because of MUD where that card really shines. destroying a workshop with this is like shutting down 3 moxes. consider also that null rod when on the draw is a card you cant cast easy. For MUD the inclusion of 4 emissary of despair is crucial for our survival.
so a part of the sideboard consists:
4 emissary of despair
2 ghost quarter
2 yixlid jailer
1 engineered explosives
1 darkblast
1 perish.

These are 11 cards. now we must include additional hate vs tps, aggrojace (GenCon champion) and oath. about fish i can t say much it. i agree with max' s approach.
i may sound heretic but i can t find a way including 2- 3 null rods. i am afraid that sad sac is the best possible answer at least vs tps and oath. null rod is great on the play in contrast with sad sac. i know that this approach is beyond logic but i would like to have your thoughts. i am thinking that the 1 null sod in the main can serve its role as a silver bullet when on the play via the use of tutors. Please dont ban me for this thought! as for the last 1-2 slots what do you say about a copy of forbidden orchard and 1 additional engineered explosives? this could act as an additional hate vs fish too. max i would like to hear your opinion.

the hardest matchup semms to be MUD. i made intensive playtesting using as sb material 4 emissary of despair and ghost quarter. these emissaries are beasts! when on the play i found that this matchup can be affordable. however i am afraid that we should  include ghost quarter if we want to have a chance when on the draw. this grants additional lands to play around the spheres and at most a great mana denial plan.
i playtested null rod too and in about 40 matches i rarely cast it. that happened because either i was already winning or i just couldnt cast spells. Chalice of the void on the other hand was a nice addition as i could cast it for 0 even when on the draw. i cant find a way to include it.
any other thoughts about adding 4 quater? and if so you find necessary to include crucible of worlds in the original decklist?
any other suggestions against this matchup. i am afraid when scars of mirrodin will be released mud will become even tougher to handle with a mono black deck.

thank you 2nd lawl for your primer. it has been a long time since a mono black deck (archetype) appeared in top 8s. i posted in another forum too about this deck but i see here that the innovator himself is posting so i said i will give it a try. the community as well seems more intrigued to discuss about this deck. by the way thanks s.m. for your quick reply . i am looking forward hearing your opinions as i have seen you have participated to this forum too. well i think that these are enough.  lets go to the topic now. i have proposed the cut of emissary of despair but s.m. said the opposite. the same did 2nd lawl as i understand from his posts as it is a good play vs a chalice set at 2. i should playtest them.
Other Cards to Consider:
1.bojuka bog (as a 1 of as stormanimagus said)
2.cabal pit (as a 1 of instead of darkblast maybe? at this time it kills dark confidant, hierarch, oath tokens, welder and selkie. what do you believe? we can sacrifice time and design space for a removal like this that kills the creatures already mentioned in addition to pridemage and meddling mage which seem problematic when they name hexmage?)
3.fetches (djinn mentioned about a way to calculate fetching and "thinning". does anyone have the results to see if it works?)
4.ghost quarter (serves double duty vs dredge and mud so we can cut jailers to get some more space to the sb. and yes i know jailer is the best dredge hate  :wink:but perharps we can adjust the sb to reteain our advantage vs dredge and at the same time correlate the most difficult match up)
5.full set of bitterblossom (as above, double duty vs fish and mud)
6. dystopia vs oath and fish? or even
7. perish and massacre as a 1 of?
 thoughts? thank you for your time...

hi everyone. can somebody help me find the way to replay to a topic that belongs to the vintage dec discussion. i now i am totally noob......