Yes, i thought of allot of ways to have a draw engine...or something that would help in the top deck mode.  The closest thing i got was 3 crop and 2 senseis, add demonic,vampiric, and tinker you have 6 cards for shuffle effects, and the double welder free draw with sensei.  
adding more bazzars is also a good idea.

If i could i would fit all the cards in the world to have an asnwear to all sort of problems...but the fact with fish is...we don't have any tutors or a solid draw engine to take up1-2 card spaces just to add BOUNCE for a random card.  Add a 1-2 copy of SHinobi if you are worried about big creatures.  The way i play My Fish is to eat their board so they don't even have a chance to get a robot in play, that is why i play null rod,gorilla,waste,daze, to eat up thier time.   playing for the past month's with this version i never had a problem since if they did cast tinker i would be already in a bad spot which ment i would of lost anyways or id let them play since i would win.     

Hi, if i'm not mistaken TPS was one of the first Storm decks (after Grim long with burning wish no?) to come out.  When the DCI said it was ok to use Imperial Seal and Grim Tutor a new deck took form called Pitch Long. Pitch long is a faster version of the TPS deck using cards like 3-4 Cabal Ritual, 2-3 Grim tutors and even an infernal contract to win the game in the first turns.  TPS on ther other hand in my opinion is more solid since it plays a more controlish role in the first 1-2 turns with dures while trying to sneak bombs. They both have the ability to win games in the first 2-3 turns but Pitch has a higher percentage rate, but can also be disrupted easier. 

  Now with all the MUD no one really plays Pitch...they usually go the Dark confidant TPS rout (BOB Tendril's) 

   Beside's that old article on smokestack, i had to put my reasons why i don't play smoke. Especially since i now that with out this card i would make allot of people skeptic on the deck.  If you guys say that this deck does not work without smoke, i can tell you right now it's not the case. I opened this thread since playing with this deck i see result's and so wanted to share with any stax player a new way (let's call it this) to see and play 5c Stax.
   
 My main reasons why i took out that card was for the current meta. Back in 2007 when gush,merchant, and brain ruled everything i took Iamfish advice and tried this new architype....and infact worked and i took home a nice mox sapphire. Now that the meta is kind of same but slower, i thought to myself why not try it again? and my result's look the same as back in 2007.
the printing of nature's claim and the main deck inclusion of trygon,ancient grudge made me want to quite with the smoke play since they would have a whole turn to do there buisness and when finally i would put a counter...i would see it in the grave  -.-''

Now, do i hate smoke? nooooo! do i feel like playing it now? no.     it's just a meta call.

  Ok now on the chalice and Ray...like everybody we only have 15 cards in the side. So i wanted to fit not only cards that can effect just one card or one particulare situation, but in other ways. so ray only answears oath, but maybe that oath player has a voltaic key,black or vault and so ray becomes useless.   Replica hit's almost anything, spell pierce can't touch it and you don't need to save up that 2 mana for ray since you can play it, attack and just wait and be reused with welder. Not to mention thae whole prob of chalice at 2 interfirence. If i added the rays, then i would only have 2 grudge against the Mud match.

i though at first the samething, but i can assure you that it's not the case.   this deck holds it's on against the MUD match.

   I have to agree, it has to do witht the more consistent manabase. i have played the red shop deck and even UBA stax, and at some point or another it always happens...you get mana screwed where instead of drawing that ancient/city you draw a loonely mountain, or the other way around. 

  This is my new way (an upgrade) to view and play stax. I would lime to' know your results with staxless...maybe give me some advice on my weak spots... =)

  I go on my current results and not history... By this, i mean that when i play staxless i win far more than when i played with smokestack. I started a staxless stax thread so it was only obvious to explain why i don't play smoke..i have no problem with that card since i too have fun playing it. But i like i said i see results with staxless, can't do nothing about it..  Maybe i'm just lucky who knows.. Or the noob oppo?

My main reasons not to play smoke are written above, we just have different opinions.

 The reason 5c stax is still around is it's ability to adapt to any style of meta..whichlike i said at the current moment where i play it's filled with mud,fish, control.. And from the way things are going i'm gonna keep my ratchet bombs and wurmcoils...from the moment things start to change, ill most likely readapt and make other changes as well.

  Here it is, the 5c staxless stax thread!   
I wanted to open this thread since i see this deck as a real competitor for the current meta (gush,oath,tezz,ichorid,Mud).

 Let's go with the Decklist and my card choosing:
STAXLESS STAX

4 Mishra's workshop
4 Wateland
4 City Of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian accademy
1 Strip-Mine
1 Bazaar Of Baghdad

17 Lands

4 Goblin Welder
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Gorilla Shaman

Creatures 10

5 Mox
2 Mox opal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Balance
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere Of Resistence
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Trinisphere
1 Memory Jar
2 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Chalice Of The Void

Side:

3 Sylvon Replica
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Chalice Of The Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Relic Of Pregenitus

   I like my Stax not 2-3 or 4...but 5 colored...why? well because playing 5 colors i can have an answer for pretty much anything that comes at my way, the only thing though is... you have to be preprared. i have a silver bullet for everything, i tried at some point or another to remove one of those cards listed above but found myself sometimes stranded since i could not find the right answer even having a tutor in hand to get any card i wanted.I like to have this concept with Stax.."Having threats that can be also asnwears to win the Game"    But WAIT!!!!  I know... i'm sure you are missing the SmOkEsTaKe  and want an explanation before i right anymore... ok, so here we go.  Like "iamfish" once wrote...

"There is a new card coming out in Coldsnap.  I’ll tell you what it does and then you can tell me if it is good in type 1.

It costs 4 mana(More than Yawgmoth’s Will, Necro, Tinker, or Thirst for Knowledge)

When you play it, here’s what it does:
NOTHING.

You pass the turn.  On your opponent’s turn it does:
NOTHING

You take your next turn.  You put a counter on it.  Then, guess what it does:
NOTHING

You pass the turn.  On your opponent’s turn(now four turns later) it does:
The worst Misguided Rage ever. (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=24852)

Okay, big deal.  You spent 4 mana, four turns, and a card to make your opponent sacrifice his worst permanent.  It can’t get worse, can it.

On your next turn, you sacrifice a permanent as well.  Ladies and gentleman, this card is worse than Misguided Rage.

Are you ready for the real surprise.  As the more astute of you have already noticed, this is not a card from Coldsnap.  On the contrary, it is a card you all have already been using without questioning its merit: Smokestack.

Yes, I am using this forum to suggest that Smokestack is a hands-down terrible card in type 1.  I will continue my argument and submit for critique a deck discussion about a Staxless build I have been tearing up type 1 tournaments with.

First, and foremost, let me seemingly go back on my word and so that Smokestack is not unusable, but rather just too much of a situation specific card.  Consider that you are on the play versus a Control Slaver deck and you keep a hand including Mox, Mishra’s Workshop, Crucible of Worlds, and Smokestack.   This should put you in a very agreeable situation, assuming the Smokestack is not Force of Willed.  One would argue that this is the primary reason why the card is good.  Here are the flaws in the argument.

1.)   The matchup has to do with the quality of Smokestack.  If the deck you were playing against were Ichorid, Fish(or some other deck with Wasteland to hit your Workshop and keep Crucible off the board), GrimLong or some other Combo deck, or another Stax deck, you might have an advantage, but certainly not a lock.
2.)   Decks like Control Slaver or Gifts, the two decks that this first turn play is best against, can still very commonly handle this draw with a Force of Will, a first turn Welder from CS or a Mox heavy hand from Gifts.
3.)   Thoughtlessly claiming that a card is good because it can be part of an early lock makes the following other cards “good”: Nether Void, Possessed Portal, Rule of Law(against Combo), Stasis, and Land Equilibrium.
4.)   Thoughtlessly claiming that a card is good because it can combo with other cards, like Stax with Crucible or Goblin Welder, is true, but weak.  When you combine two cards in Type 1 they should do things like, Tinker into Colossus, or Weld in a Mindslaver.  Basically, I am surprised that people get excited about being able to turn Smokestack, from “each player sacrifices” permanents to “your opponent sacrifice one thing each turn.”
5.)   Without a card to combo with Smokestack, in most matchups the card is nothing spectacular, falling just above the line of symmetrical.  Type 1 cards need to be a little bit better that “just above symmetrical.”
6.)   Most importantly, Smokestack is a very suboptimal draw mid to late game.  The card offers an out if played early, but after a few turns, its effects are not felt unless the game runs for many, many more turns.

It is for these reason and more that I would suggest that Smokestack is simply a great sideboard card against Control decks.  Unfortunately, this is not much of a claim, as there are plenty of control deck hosers out there to choose from."

Card Choices:
 
  This was wrote back in 2006, but i still see that it can still apply in this current meta. Especially NOW since MUD has shown up in dominance, and people are packing allot..I mean ALLOT of artifact hate. I started thinking to myself how i wanted cards that could react to things like ancient grudge and nature's claim... cards that had impact on the game as soon as they touched ground.


 Every Stax deck I have ever seen (besides UBA stax with the bazaar engine or B/R confidant engine) has the big problem of not having a solid draw engine. I i went to work to solve this problem. I tried everything! every color spell i could think of..but nothing worked. Then one day i had the brilliant idea to add the Sensei's so i could smooth out the top decks, but realized i missed the shuffle effects... then came another brilliant idea to add more crop rotations to shuffle and at the same time use it as a fetch land and to play bazaar/strip to have the game sealed... In theory the concept sounded really good with 4 chalice and sphere to slow the game down, have 4 crucible to give it that strip consistency. It did not work since adding all this stuff also makes you loose some other cards that at times can save you from a tough spot.
   So i went back to basics...

4 Tangle wire's:   They play the role of "Time Walk"... add in an active welder and  those 4 turns can become almost 6-7 turns. I would never dream of playing less tha 4.When played it does something immediately,It keeps Fish’s creatures at bay, and also that horrible card "MANA DRAIN" and heck...even that pesky "Spell Pierce". when played with sphere it usually makes all you spells resolve easily 

2 Chalice of the Void:   Is it a maindeck, sideboard, or neither card? from testing...i see it as a card that has to be main and side...so it's obvious how i play only 2 maindeck. This is not MUD, most of my spells cost 1-3-and up. setting too many  chalice's hurt's you sometimes more than it hurt's them. Chalice is a solid card on the play, but on the draw on the draw you are purely reactionary...so if you are lucky enough to get it in hand good, otherwise at mid game set it at 2 to cut off hurkyl-thorn-fish creature's-mana drain... and the list goes on and on.

2 Mox Opal: Thank you GOD! 5c stax plays 5 color mana base, which at times gives you a shaky mana base involving shops and a thick five color assortment of spells. So back then i used to play 2 relics, but now this card takes it spot since we play enough artifact's to not worry about it's metalcraft ability. I play 2 since i would first need to figure out what else to take out to find room for other 2, but it's leggendary...so..   


2 Wurmcoil Engine: Oh yes! the big bad WURM!!!!  He is the MAN of the deck... that card that saves me from fish.  my main concern when playing this deck was the 50% chance of loosing to Fish deck's. but now adding in the Wurm i see my possibility's rise 60-70% once he resolves.  he gains life, kills the goyf...and most of all laughs at the quasali ability. Not to mention the horrible situation that Mana Crypt/city has put all of us where gaining some life is mandatory.



SIDE:
 At one point i almost gave up on this part. The advantage of playing a 5c deck is the ability to have a wide veriaty of cards to chose from to battle other decks, the problem though is having too many ideas and trying to fit them all in a 15 card slot.

My main concerns were Ichorid,Oath,Mud and Fish.

3 REPLICA:   Biggest concern was Oath, i liked the ray of revelation...but also love playing chalice at 2. ok, so next came nature's claim which could also be used to play against MUD, but only one problem occured...MUD loves playing chalice at 1 against me, or having that thorn in play followed by a lovely waste 
Then i read a Report by "Punki" and saw the Replica, i never gave it a thought, actually i really did not like it...until i tried it and saw the result's. I'ts artifact,can be played first turn with workshop, a 1/3 body, can do nice tricks with welder, chalice at 2 or 1 does not hurt,can be put in an oath as well as a Mud match-up... oh did i mention it's an artifact that cost 3?

2 Chalice: For the  "On the play" against pretty much any deck.  does wonder's against the TPS match-up.

3 Relic's/2 Tormod's:  For the Ichorid match i figured the 2 tormod's/3 relics. leyline was not consistent, and if bounced i had no way to put it back in play right away..relic's/crypt are artifact,cheap, and reusable with welder.


Since i saw allot of threads on different Stax/Mud decks, i wanted to maybe get your interest in a deck that for the current Gush-Control-Mud ..meta has a very good shot at being a tier one deck.
 I'm sure for the people that will try to play this deck it will feel really different from other builds since this deck is allot less aggressive compared to other Stax deck's that are available, but i guarantee that with enough play and practice this does bring in result's.  (Modify it depending on Meta)



-BOMBERMAN-

 

i agree with you that it can give you a great advantage!  i always played with both moxe's... just now did i add Black lotus since at first thought, thought it was not all that needed... but again, in recent testing the first tunr black really helps out. Only in the late game it becomes one of those dead draws.

everyone has their own style of play so i'll just stick to staxless

anyway, from what you wrote and checking your list i see that maybe my list is a bit stronger against MUD (I play 2 gorilla main,chalice if on the play, no smoke to clonge up stuff....plus my side is also pacts more answears like an extra grudge and extra replica.)..my staxless and original Stax /with smoke) had more cards for that particulare match than what i see from your list. I surely did not win all my games against MUD, but on a percentage, i won like 70-60%.

i side almost the same as you do depending on who starts.
 
on draw or if i play first i always add some grave hate to take care of that sometimes horrible first turn crucible, or if they copy mine.

good job keeping 5c stax alive!   

I read the report because i wanted to understand better your problems with MUD. Maybe is because you have 2 cards less than me for MUD?  i have 3 replica's in side,2 Grudge, and 2 shaman main...  and never really had any type of problems...even back then when i only had 2 shamans main and 1RacknR 1Shattering spree side.

can you tell me how you side? meaning the cards you take out and put in on the "DRAW" & on the "PLAY".maybe you are doing something wrong??  I'm no guru, but have been playing Stax for quite a while and might be able to help in some sort of way =)

since crop got un restricted i tried a version of 4 crops and 2 sensei's for draw/top deck engine, where i would use crop nopt only to get a land, but also shuffle the deck so i can manipulate it with sensei...but i just did not like it.

why not just try UBA stax, other wise it can get messy trying to mix too many things.

                  ...last thought...try staxless  ^^

i really like the whole frantic search idea

No, i must of explained myself wrong.  i too think it's the best storm deck to play against Workshop, and really like it fot the current meta.  what i was saying was, i see big clunky spells like Jace,Tinker,robot, and maybe even merchant for a faster "Combo" style of play. Those change's were the first that popped in my mind, then i tried what i said but did not like it... now I'm playing

Maindeck (60):
Spells (47):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
2 cabal ritual
2 repeal
3 duress
1 gift

Lands (13):
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea

a more tps style of approach, only with the confidant solid draw engine.

might be just me...but i see all this blue decks ALL THE SAME. besides the 4 "dark Ritual's" this deck is not that different from jace control and so fourth.

why not got a different route?  i mean it's in the ritual base combo thread, but goes the speed of a  control...
 i'm thinking of adding more speed...  maybe going for 2 cabal ritual's, and taking out 2 jace. followed by the entry of imperial seal, and 1-2 grim tutor's. i suggest moving the big robot in side.

as far as the mutavault tech goes, sure mishra is stronger, and the most frequent things i counter cost one, but you never know when that mutavault will come in handy to counter that gamebreaking card  

So far, no combo problems...storm decks play with little lands so that's when all the daze(s) cursecatcher,stifle,null come in handy...  the main focus is to hit their mana and counter only the bombs.

The toughest part for this deck was creating a good solid SIDE! and as of right now i think i have done that part correctly.  why?
my main concern was the noble fish-Oath-Ichorid matches...   on my first side i had no ichorid side cause i had to add all the noble fish-oath hate since they are played far more than ichorid. That was not a correct thing to do, since i a good deck has to be prepare for everydeck.................... ......sooooo, i went back and took out the standtills to add main deck protections that would also help outside of those matche's (beside's the ichorid one)   ...THE 3 SPELL SNARE!  with those i could counter all the pesky cards that otherwise would really hurt like oath,tarmo,sphere... and bla bla bla..   adding that to main helped me remove cards so i could add the 4 relics (against ichorid, i think at least 4 cards have to be obbliggatory to have a chance).

Why bounce? that is why i play 4 reb in side... takes care of trygon and jace. Lodestone is a 5/3 body (but we have flux and ingot to take care of that) and the rest of the creature's can be taken care of with lavamancer or jitte. the only thing that we cannot stop is a sphy or inkwell...but when that happens, i just say oh well and play next game.  can't always win..  having 2 bounce spells with a weak draw engine and no tutor's is kind of pointless no?

heck yeah!  spell snare should be enough.. why not take out the 3 spell pierce and ad the 4 spell snare and 2 more creature's? maybe waterfront bouncer if so concerned

everything is going smoothly with the 3 ingot 2 flux strategy plan.  rack and ruin cost 3, and a fish player does not play the 5 moxes plus other eccellarations..and having a sphere in play is tough to cast.  i prefer the flux where if i do cast it, and put pressure it can be a gg for opponent, where maybe a resolved RnR gives you only momentary advantage ( untill he throws down another bomb)

in recent testing matches i see that gorilla shaman is amazing! 3 is the perfect number since it really just hits the moxes and sometimes things like aether vial or sol ring-voltaic key's, not to mention we play the null rod, so when you play a null gorilla just stands there as a 1/1 creature...  that's why i love ninja! no creature is dead! =P

yes, back then 4 grim lava was the right number to play since there were allot of creatures that if not dealt with it would spell game over (like goblin welder). But in todays meta, the only creature that grim hit's is confidant...trygon is a 2/3, i rarely see goblin welder being played, same goes for lotus cobra...plus tarmo is usually really big-same for lodestone golem.   So my perfect number is 2. Same reason i took out the main Fire-ice.

Love daze, it's amazing, i used to play 4, but then realized that it was just a bit too much... so i tried 3, and loving it since! in todays meta i see that players have to push their spells in order to organize their game, where back then they had 4 brain that could be used when wanted or thirst...but now, you have to play preordian, confidant, jace, as soon as possible since they are played at sorcery speed.

i remember back then playing the bouncer...great card, but as of right now i prefer the 3 main deck spell snare.  i only like bouncer against the oath match up.

as far as the whole brain standstill drawing is thing... i've decided to go the more meandeck way of things... and removed both for some solid counter magic...

so after testing some more, i figured " what the heck!" for oath why bot play 3 spell snare in main! it takes out aoth,tarmo,confidant, and so on...   

so i took out..  3 standstill and 2 faerie conclave for +sage +3spell snare +black.
my side also changed, and now consist of 4 relic,4reb,2 jitte,3 ingot, and 2 flux...so far so good!

what could i cut for spell pierce? i'm thinking that the spellstutters are taking it's place

i have to try annul, since nice..but i also wanted something to handle a played oath in case they win the counter war.

my new sideboard looks like this...
1 null rod
4 reb
2 umezawas
3 gilded drake/annul
3 ingot chewer
2 energy flux
took out the kira's since they are preatty useless...

faerie conclave is slow at times, and i would of agreed with you a couple of weeks ago till i tryid them...and have to say that at the moment, i never had trouble..even helped me win a game...untill i fiind something better i'm just gonna leave them.
   ..yeah mishra is better overall, but using the spellstutters tech i have to use mutavalts.

you would think that playing 4 would be the right move, but in testing i see that the biggest threats cost one mana... and i rearly had to use spellstutter to counter at 2...and even less 3-4.     
 
 On Vendillian Clique... i never liked the card. I don't see any big deal with it, the only reason i would play it is to have a 3/1 flyer.

 i thought about jace allot of times... never tested since i see that fish has a really low mana curve, i prefer to draw three or have people use their counter on standstill. most likely if i ever did cast it i would be already winning, so it would be more of a win more card.

forgot to mention ( but obvious) how i run no tutor's... so having ravenous or just 2 gargon is not going to cut it... 

hi, i totally agree that my side does SUCK!
 
the only thing i would never take out at the moment are the 4 reb and the 2 umezawa's jitte...the rest i can change no prob.

right now i took out the 2 kira's and 1 energy flux for  3 ingot chewer... vandal is good, but i think 3 ingot and 2 energy is sufficent enought...   while your side is aimed against mud and ichorid... what about Oath? it's been rising lately... and the noble fish match up?

Let's bring back an old favorite...
how about a deck that in the current metagame creates havoc???
a deck that has all the right creature's to answera MOST (not all) of your problems...????
well....here it is!!!   

U/R

4 volcanic island
4 scalding tarn
3 mutavault
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
2 feari conclave
1 flooded strand
2 island

3 gorilla shaman
2 grim lavamencer
4 ninja of the deep hour
3 cursecatcher
3 spellstuter sprite
2 sage of epityr

4 force of will
1 misdirection
3 daze
3 stifle
3 null rod
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 mox sapphire
1 mox ruby
3 standstill

Side
3 gilded drake
2 umezawa's jitte
1 null rod
4 red elemental blast
3 energy flux
2 kira, great glass spinner


so where to begin...?  well let me start off from saying that i'm a 5c stax player and never really considered playing any type of fish decks until a cuople of weeks ago on MWS...fooling around i tried all the FISH deck's possible.. except Noble fish since i really don't like it, don't ask me why... anyway i tried UBW with chalice and aether vial but nothing...then i tried with the null rod's and nothing... then came the time to try WB...but yet it seemed like something was missing.   so i went ahead and tryid a whacky version of U/R fish with 4 magus of the moon main, and saw that while it crushed gush deck when resolved, had serious trouble on the rest of the field...     so i tried google for help!  i searched all the U/R fish decks for advice but noticed that nobody was playing the deck anymore...so i was on my on... untill i noticed a faerie fish deck that intrigued me.

let me explain some of the cards....

why spellstutter sprite? i was sceptic at first... but various testing showed me that it's help me win so many games, it was what fish deck's were missing, a caounter for all the cheap (broken cards) like vamp,ancestral, mystical and so on when you are at the mid game and your opp has enough mana to tap for daze and cursecathcer  ...nice little tech
plus having the mutavault hepls with the faerie count..

Standstill is BACK!   the current meta is slow.. so let's bring back an old favorite.....  Standstill!  but only three this times since i noticed how 4 sometimes was little too much..but now i never  complain.

all the other card's i don't think i have to comment on... usuale stuff.

Now the side!   i had big trouble finding the right side...  and to tell you the truth i still have trouble..if you guys can help me out i would really appreciate it.

Big question..THE GILDED DRAKE'S , the most dif match-up i have is the OATH matchup.  The main reason is that i have no bounce, and i don't really think that some echoing truth is gonna stop oath...so i was trying out sigil of sleep, but in the end i figured that the little drake can handle oath and even the casual mirror fish match up, stilling a goyf or other neat creatures... while the sigil would be harder to cast and keep in the board.     any thought's? i still have not yet used it....

jitte for obvious mirror matche's...

4 red elemental blast in side are priceless.... especially in this deck, i may add a 5(pyroblast).

3 energy flux... for those big bad MUD decks... maybe leave one flux and add 4 ingot chewer?  i don't know... would like some help here also.

my main cocern are the oath match-up's and the Ichorid decks since for those i really don't have a side for... i'm tired of taking up 4-6 cards for a ichorid deck that i may not even go against, so i say what the hell and totally forget that deck! =)

yes i too think that the replica is better, but this was my old list back in late 07-08 if i'm not mistaken...the replica is the cards that i always wished for since i had trouble with oath sideboard... since i loved ray of revelation but i also loved playing chalice at 2, so i had to change.

If i had to bring my list i would def take out relic and maybe barbarian for 2 mox opal, the rest i would preatty much leave it as it is... but i too love the wumcoil, but i just don't know what to take out... it's a tough one.. trust me, 3 smoke is the perfect number..and the casual ratchet bomb goes great!

I LOVE MEMORY JAR! i see allot of top players never playing it in their list, or having something to say bad about it...  i think of it as an extra "counter this card or i win" thing... plus 5cstax having no draw engine u usually have to go in top deck mode, i prefer drawing memory than a smoke...
Not to mention how many games it won me...!

now with barbarian.. the whole idea i loved from the very begining. killing fish creatures, maybe the welder war, or just killing thee oppo with crucible ring recursion... but out of all my testing and tournament's i only actually won 2 maybe 3 games with it. allot of times i hoped it was a gemstone or city or something that could of have given me colored mana.  so like with my new list, took out barbarian and put the 2 mox opal.

The whole metalworker thing is a coin flip... if they start first and lay metal with 5 bombs it's usually gg, unless you can draw balance or tangle then something else to follow..
My side when playing mud is this...  (if i go first)

-4 tangle (since you go first, you have to be the active player...having wire in the opening hand is really not that good)
-sundering (no need)
-crop         (no need..maybe to get bazaar with welder)
-trini       
-2 sphere
 
+2 chalice   (chalice in the opening hand is really really good...  best play is at 0)
+3 replica   
+2 ancient grudge
+2 relic or tormod


On the draw...

- chalice       ..all of them
-sundering
-crop
- sphere     all of them
-trini

graveyard hate... mmm... to tell you the truth i really never had that much trouble. try tricking them in removing all your grave  with a single waste or a bomb with welder active, that should do it most of the times.


plz let me know how the tourn went =)

I can see where you guys are coming from... I too thought the samething. I played my first tournament with a 5c stax (i choosed staxless) and won my mox sapphire... then i played other tournaments and got 3 times in top 8 and once finals for a mox pearl but lost to a U/w Fish (my fault since i tryed a OATH side in a stax deck   -.-  yes i'm crazy i know...)
then i thought to myself that smokestack was a really strong card not to play... so i threw it in and played a couple of other tournaments only to see my but being whooped in the finals for a black lotus to a U/R fish....    (I HATE FISH!!!)
all this to say that against creature heavy decks... i see smoke not that good... i have wurmcoil to handle that plus rathcet, then have monkey to deal with pesky artifatcs that might bother me. also against Mud or other 5c builds i see my staxless deck more favorable on winning...

Punki...here is my old list that had smoke ratchet and chalice...

4 mishra
4 waste
4 city brass
2 gemstone
strip
tolarian
bazaar
barbarian ring

5 mox
black,crypt,vault,sol
1 coalition relic
3 sphere
trinisphere
3 smoke
1 ratchet
2 chalice
memory jar
4 tangle wire
3 crucible
sundering titan
triskelion

4 welder
2 monkey's

tinker
vamp
demonic
crop
balance
ancestral

SIDE.....
1 aura fracture
1 chalice
1 choke
2 red blast
1 triskelion
1 duplicant
3 leyline
1 tormod's crypt
1 pyroblast
1 rack ruin
1 shattering spree
1 darkbalst
1 jester's cap

Let me explain myself better, i never said that it's a common scenario..just said that sometimes in a late-mid game smokestack is sometims useless... =)
A mid/late game scenario...

Me= draw smoke and play it... 1.turn does nothing...
                                          2.my turn, i pass does nothing...
opp=i sac one of my useless permanent...
Me=                                    3.i sac my own perm...
Opp= (4 turn and now smoke becomes dangerous for them)

My take on it why not have something faster that impacts the game in a quicker maner like ratchet bomb, or shaman.. 

I love smoke.. and sometimes it helped me win games.. but i prefer my stax ..staxless

i forgot to mention that my list plays seething song and i dont play with voltaic's or the monolith's...  i also run 4 main deck serum.
great idea on the leyline of anticipation..did not think of it, on the ingot i have to say that it saved me allot against mud.. mud has no draw engine so my top decks are just better than there's...  plus magic is also luck so if he can draw 3 lock pieces i can dra 5 I win card's no? 
Ichorid i do not side since testing i see that i'm faster...  they have no counter so gg.
thanks agains on the blue leyline.

The main reason is so i have a low mana curve, ratchet and gorilla cost way less and sometimes do allot more than a single smoke on the field. Reason 2 is that allot of times playing against aggro/aggro control decks where they play waste, playing a first turn smoke is kind of risky... allot of times they waste me and if i don't have lands in hand it's usually game over.obviously the deck play's different from traditional 5cstax since the main concern is to land a welder, play tangle wire as a time walk.. and really be good with timing to lock opp out. if you've been playing traditional stax you may need to practice a little, but in the end it pays off.. =)   (plus i like staxless since i won my first tourn with it ^^ )

personally i think smoke sometimes just becomes too slow.. mid game i draw smoke and have to wait at least 3-4 turns before it actually hurt's the other player board.  why not have monkey destroy all the artifact's just for one mana and can start doing something in the first turn? or even better have the same effect with ratchet bomb...  what does smoke kill that other cards in my deck can't? 

first i'll answer the third question...  i tried playing with 4 mox opal but it was too risky... and allot of times was a dead draw in late game... plus if i ever played a chalice for zero in the first turn opal would be useless. so i tried 2, and have to say that i never have color problems, my old list ran 4 city-2-gemstone-1barbarina- and 1/2 relics... the only prob was relic cost 3 and kind of slowed me down..now with opal the deck is so much smoother...haveing 2 artifacts in play is real easy and having one more colored mana never hurt's 5cstax.
you should try it out and let me know how it plays for you.

..No, since i play 2 and chalice is God when played on the first turn for zero... and late game for 2.  no reason runnning 4 where sometimes against decks like Mud-fish.ect it's really useless and hurt's you more than them...  same goes for playing 3, so i tested and saw 2 was the right number...  I never play it at one in the first turns.so far never had problems.

me and my friends are actually planning to particepate from now on with 3 identical belcher decks... 
i really need help with the side...   

so far... SIDE:
4 ingot chewer    (GOD)
3guttural resp       (not bad)
4 stomr entity
4 deus of calamity..

but it just does not convince me... aside from ingot..
any help would be appreciated 

Where are all my 5c stax fans????!!!

a couple of month's ago i thought that 5c had no chance since the whole metagame swithched... i tried playing but saw that it was not as solid as MUD... then a couple of weeks ago i created this...   My old Staxless STAX!  the same deck that made me top 8 numerous times in Italy (I live in Italy) and even one me my first tournament.. (won a mox sapphire!)

all i did was update the list a little and....   wuuaaalllaaaaaaa!     on mws i'm on a 10-2 streak... (i only play against competitive deck)

here it goes...
STAXless STAX!   

2 MOX OPAL
5mox
lotus
manacrypt, vault, sol ring
4 shop
4 waste
1 strip
1 tolarian
4 city brass
2 gemstone mine
1 bazaar

4 welder
2 monkey
1 sundering titan
2 wurmcoil engine
1 triskelion

crop rotation
balance
2 chalice of void
memory jar
demonic
vampiric
ancestral
tinker
4 tangle wire
2 ratchet bomb
Trini
4 sphere resistance
2 crucible

SB

2 chalice of the void
3 REB
2 tomod's crypt
3 relic of prog
3 sylvok replica
2 ancient grudge

...tangle wire is my personal time walk...and the 2 mox opal replaced my then good friend relic for colored mana.
i have a good matchup against pretty much anything on the field, i might wanna change the ichorid side, but so far so good.

First let me say...  I stumbled on 5c stax 4 years ago and one a really important tournament... from that day on i fell in love with the deck making numerous top 8...love your approach with the deck, i would maybe cut the main ancient's for 2 shaman.. just my take
 Anyway.. can't agree with you more! i think 5c stax is the only stax deck that even if it goes second or does not drop a huge threat on turn one.. can still win a game.