That wasn't sarcasm when I said that.  I wasn't trying to continue whinning.  Those questions were trying to open up discussion of what people think.  They were serious and not whinning.

To begin with, I have been reading whenever I can and trying to educate myself on the issue.  I had genuinely dropped the issue for now, and haven't acted on your suggestions because the overall suggestion was to become more familiar with the issues and come up with new ideas and state why the old ones haven't worked... all of those things cannot be done overnight, they take time, which is why I haven't "put up" and I have been trying to discuss the whole thing on here, which is why I haven't "shut up".

If you're tired of me, simply don't respond.

No it isn't fair, hence the "I give up".

As for the change in design, I ran a couple of Magic stores at the time of the face change, and 99% of my customers complained about the change.  I had a lot of Magic players pass through my stores and one thing I have gathered is that players *generally* dislike change.  And not just casual players.  I find casual players more accepting of change, as if, being casual players, they expect the game to have changed every time they go to a shop, which is less often than the competative (daily) players.  That's just my observations.

More than the issues, I was uneducated as to the struggle that has gone on already, and the community that exists for 1.5.  I had no idea about The Source.   :shock:   For me, my greatest ignorance came from not knowing who was out there that actually plays 1.5.  For me, I thought BB's sad 1.5 forum was all there was.  I'm actually quite pleased to be wrong!     I'd rather have found a place like The Source than have immediate change in the Banned List.

That being said, I still hold true to my belief that every Format should be self-determined.  People constantly misunderstand and think it's about unbanning a couple cards, when really it is about the long-term future of the Format, including its growth in appeal.

Can someone tell me what the drawbacks are of separating the two?  What is the worst case scenario?  Workshop, Bazaar, Drain, and Ritual are Banned... and?  Does that mean the format would suck?  Does that mean it's unplayable?  I actually have faith in the DCI to make Bannings that are important for maintaining a balanced exciting environment.  Maybe that's because I'm a long time Extended player who is converting to 1.5.  I have lost so many of my favourites in Extended, including my beloved Oath.  But life goes on!  No one card defines an enironment in my opinion, and if it does then it isn't a healthy one to begin with.  Is a "play Dragon or beat Dragon" metagame healthy?

I know it's tricky when you get into Vintage because of the expensive cards.  If they were to restrict Workshop at this point they'd have so many pissed off players who have spent so much money on their cards, which is not a reality in Extended.  Card value does not enter into concern about the health of the environment.  Am I way off the mark of reality, or is that pretty accurate?

You're all right.  I give up.  No one cares, no one will care... actually at The Source, they roundly reject the idea of separating the lists!  Unbelievable.  The majority of voices over there think that the separation would lead to the demise of 1.5.  I can't beieve how absurd it is to me.  I cannot understand.  It seems that many Magic players dislike rocking the boat or changing things.  I have seen this time and again, especially I have seen this in Extended, and now again with this issue.

@ Ric - My lashing out is a result of frustration.   When I see at 5 websites that hundreds of people in total have read my post, and less than 20 have posted supporting posts, and of those zero have signed the petition, I get a little frustrated.  I'm not trying to be a politician, just trying to do what I thought someone should do.  Of course I take it personally, I can't help it.. it's my nature.  There can be no more valid reasons than those already discussed in your article.

I was naive which is equal to stupid in Magic terms... I guess that's why I am a MoggIntellect, not a VodalianIntellect or something.

For those wondering why I got so worked up and tried this campaign... here is a taste of the wonderful Type 1.5 forum at Brainburst:

quote:

Creatures:
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
2x Iridescent Angel
2x Callous Oppressor
2x Soul Warden
2x Raven, Guild Master
2x Scalpalexis
1x Arcanis, The Omnipotent

Enchantments/Artifacts:
3x Control Magic
2x Confiscate
2x Persuasion
2x Telepathy
1x Think Tank
2x Teferi's Moat
3x Pacifism

Instants/Sorceries:
4x Counterspell
3x Rites of Refusal
3x Demistify
3x Confound
4x Death Ward

8x Plains
10x Island

You might have noticed that some of my creatures, like the angels and arcanis the omnipotent are kind of expensive. You might have also noticed that I have a lot of spells that I like to keep in my hand to have as security. Now, when I have 8 cards, the first card that goes in the graveyard is akroma, or an iridescent angel or arcanis. That's because I have my deathwards to regenerate em for 1W. Kind of similar to the whole discard then zombify thing that some blue and black decks run on"

end quote

This is the kind of scrubbiness rife at that board, and this post in particular pushed me over the edge.  I began with a post on BB, then I posted at some other sites, and then someone said I should start a petition, which I did, etc.  So in one day, from this scrub post I tried to launch a campaign, which ended up laying me flat on my face.  Even the person who said start the petition didn't sign it.  Unreal.

Lessons learned:
1) There is no consensus on any issue in Magic;
2) Players generally dislike major change;
3) No campaign should be started until thorough research has been completed;
4) Players would rather spend 5 minutes telling me how stupid I am than take 5 minutes to sign a petition (they agree with);
5) No one has tried to bribe Randy Beuhler with the Cheesecake of the Month membership... could this be the answer we all seek?  Is this the true path to successful change?

It's funny.  No matter how much I warn people I don't know what I'm talking about, or how much I try to temper my words with warnings, people still lambaste me.  Now I know how politicians feel when they get soundbites used that are out of context.

Yeah, I'm going at this with fervor, because I am so tired of 1.5 not getting supported.  I used to run tournaments and for Type 1.5 everyone would grumble.  They said it was boring because it's just "unpowered" Type 1, when really it isn't.

I really believe that 1.5 would be better served with its own independent Banned list.  Simple as that.  Change is something most Magic players don't like, but it is a good thing.  I think no harm can come to 1.5 by a close monitoring and a Banned list based on those observations, based on that environment.  Only good can come of it.

What amazes me more than anything is not only the sheer apathy I have received, but the amount of vehemence I have faced.  I have twice been disillusioned by the MTG "community".  The first time was when I got cards ripped... I couldn't believe that one player would steal anothers cards... and this is the second time.  I sometimes forget that this isn't a "community" rather just a  group of people who play some game.  They aren't nicer or more supportive because of a common interest, and perhaps due to the competative nature of the game, many turn out to be complete jerks.  (Please note, this will bring a firestorm of flames upon me!   But the people who are offended by this statement would never have supported the cause to begin with.)

Name: Michael R Dolan
Age: born in '77
Location: Lanzhou/Yuzhong, Gansu, China
Occupation: English Teacher @ Lanzhou University
Free Time: Getting my MEd (Masters of Education) in Leadership and Management

MTG stuff:

Began Playing: Aug 1999?  UD
Hiuatuses: OD, TO, MD5

Favourite Tournament Card: Oath of Druids
Favourite Sentimental Card: Phyrexian Colossus
Favourite Card I Own: Alpha and Beta Demonic Tutors
Favourite Artist: Ron Spencer/Rob Alexander
Favourite Card (art): Pillage - Richard Kane-Ferguson
Favourite Colour: Red
Favourite Format: Draft and Extended (until 2005   )

Most Played Colour: Blue
Power Owned: not much, Mox Jet, Ancestral Recall
Other Notables: Library of Alexandria, 4 x Mana Drain, 3 x Bazaar of Baghdad

Other: Being in Western China I have no one to play with, so I am currently in a hiatus from Magic.  However, great news for me is that soon I will have a new apt. that has a computer and Internet access so I can at least play online!       Living in China has many advantages, but Magic is not one of them.

This was fun, but no one will read this!

Ric - you're right, I *am* uneducated when it comes to 1.5.  To be honest, I have had a lot of difficulty in trying to find people to play the format with.  I'm just fed up with trying to find people who are intersted in what I think is really the best format, for the reasons you said in your article (very good).

Restricting cards is horrible, just as you see in Yu-Gi-Oh!, where restricted cards are normal.  The player who draws the restricted card gets a huge advantage over those who don't draw it, and the better the card the more the advantage.  Furthermore, sometimes the advantage can be abused over and over via graveyard manipulation, making the advantage even greater.

I'm not trying to say I know 1.5 format very well, rather, I just want to see something done about it.  How can you see a groundswell of support for a format that is unsupported?  I think this is a perfect time to begin to campaign for it.  With the Extended rotation about one year away a lot of people will be looking to continue to use their Masticores and Cursed Scrolls.  It's a good chance to create interest in the format.

The unbanning of Gush and Fastbond are simply ideas.  I'd rather see them banned because of the 1.5 format than the Type 1 format.  That is all we are trying to say here.

As for the attitude that it isn't popular so why bother... in that case let's start to ignore Type 1 and see how much fun it is to play after several years.  The whole point is that it isn't played because of this policy.

Anyway, for those who support the cause, please fill out the petiton at this web site:

http://www.geocities.com/michaelrdolan/VintageMagic.html

I understand that coming to a Type 1 website asking people to care about 1.5 is like asking Type 2 players to care about Type 1, but I had hoped it would be different.

I am finding out that the Magic community will not really join me.  This is obvious.  It's funny that when Rebecca Guay gets fired because her art is too girlie, the people emailed WotC and got her back, yet something as important as this to the game, and people are apathetic.

It is an old problem, but how long do you live with an old problem before you take action.  I got sick of reading scrubby postings on the Brainburst Type 1.5 Deck Strategy board.  I'm talking Blue Control without Mana Drains, or some stupid Rebel Deck that didn't use Swords to Plowshares.  There's just a bunch of casual players on that board, and it got me quite frustrated.  I think Type 1.5 is one of the best environments.  It has the second largest card pool, but without the influence of power it could become so wide open and varied that it'd be so much fun to play.  Yet the current Banned policy leaves it stale and kind of the red-headed step child of Magic, and it really should be one of the most vibrant formats.

Next year Extended will rotate out 3 blocks, that's 9 sets gone in the blink of an eye.  I think this will alienate a lot of players from their favourite format.  All the staples of so many years will be gone once more, only to lose some staples like Cursed Scroll and Masticore will seriously disappoint many players.  I think this is a good chance for Type 1.5 to step up and be a great format where you don't have to have power to play with the cards you always liked playing with.  Black, missing for so long from Extended, could be strong again with Dark Ritual not being Banned.  Anything that keeps people playing Magic is something Wizards should look into, and invest time and energy into.

As to listing the cards  that should be unbanned, it is a little up to debate, and uncertain.  I don't pretend to know exactly which cards should be banned and which shouldn't.   I think they should stick to only banning cards and no restrictions.  I think that's good for the format.

Here's my opinion of cards that could possibly be brought back to Type 1.5:

Braingeyser - Could get abusive, but I think this is less dangerous than Stroke.
Burning Wish - Simply no reason not to unban this card
Chaos Orb - omg did I just suggest that?  Although it's a rulings nightmare, it'd be interesting to see what life would be like in an Orbed environment.  
Fact or Fiction - no brainer as far as I'm concerned.
Fastbond - I'm not sure about this one.  I don't know how abusive this could get.
Fork - In an environment that allows 4 x Berserk, I think 4 x Fork could be tested.  Without access to artifact mana, the RR would be more difficult to pay for.
Gush - I think this card is good but not abusive.
Lotus Petal - With little other 0 cc art mana, I think this one is safe to allow.
Mind's Desire - I think it is on the line... could this dominate the 1.5 format?  At least let it try.
Regrowth - Without the abusive power cards from Type 1, this is a good, but not broken card.
Vampiric Tutor - On top of the library is simply not as good as in your hand.  I would not even look at Demonic Consultation before allowing this card.  Consult is far more broken than this card is.
Voltaic Key - as aforementioned by someone above, why wouldn't you unban this?

That is my brief list of initially what I'd like to see unbanned.  I would maybe go as far as to unban Demonic Tutor.  Without the plethora of fast mana, could this simply be too slow for the environment to require banning, or would it simply be just a great staple card?  I have the feeling that Type 1.5 would be fast.

I hope all that post here will at least attempt to help change the policy.

Hi Vintage players,

I appeal to your sense of a good game to help us change the Wizards Type 1.5 Banned policy.

Right now, the 1.5 Banned list is based on the Type 1 environment, and the results have been disasterous for Type 1.5.  Some cards have been banned in 1.5 because they were abused by the powered Type 1 environment, which 1.5 is not.  Would they ban cards in Type 1 based on Extended?  Of course not!  So why are they basing the 1.5 Banned list on the Type 1 environment?

Please take the time to email Wizards, and have your friends email Wizards, and beg them to change the Type 1.5 Banned policy, so that it is separate from Type 1.