My list usually goldfishes on turns 2-4, but that's not factoring in disruption, and I don't know about the non-ritual version as I haven't played it nearly as much as others.

In practice, turn 2 wins can worry about less disruption because often the opponent won't have drain mana or they've only seen a card or two or maybe they've played a set-up spell (bob, jace, etc.) and are tapped.  If it's gone to turn 3 or later, it becomes more important to worry about stripping their hand or having protection as they've had time to dig for more answers.

I usually use all of my cantrips except for Gush and Gitaxian Probe.  I consider Gush part of the combo in the early game.  Additionally, if you Gush on turn 2 and find Doomsday, you still have to wait two more turns to use another Gush to get into your pile, which is bad.  I'd rather just draw off the top and hold the gush.  Additionally, you don't want to gush into discarding, so I usually don't gush for the draw until turn 3 or 4, and even then usually only if i'm really out of gas.

I usually hold Gitaxian Probe, if you're running it, rather than simply blind drawing with it because a free draw post-doomsday is way more valuable than a blind draw pre-doomsday.  So, again, as long as i have gas, i hold it.

With pretty much every other cantrip, i go to town.  In my list, I'm looking for a 3-card combo (d. rit, dd, and gush) and they're all 4-ofs, so i'm digging pretty hard during the first few turns, depending on what's in my hand.

No argument there. I either win quick or I fall too far behind. that's almost definitely why there's such a large disparity between my win percentage on the play vs the draw against shops.

Your point about gifts is interesting. I didn't play in 06, but I wonder if there are any other parallels to be drawn.

I only disagree with Steve on one point. He's absolutely correct that speed is just another way to play vintage and or any particular archetype. It is certainly not the only or best method, and much of it depends on metagame and personal preference. I pilot aggressive decks better so I've stuck with the ritual version. But I certainly don't have as good of a long game as a more resilient controlling version.

The point that I disagree on is that ritual is bad in the shops matchup. I've found it to be very good because it allows me to fetch out islands rather than undergrounds. I don't have to expose myself to wastelands as early or as often.

Also on the shops matchup, Rob's point is that I've won a lot of games by countering his first threat, then using ritual to cast doomsday on my first or second turn without him getting another chance to cast anything.  That's what he means by not interacting meaningfully, not that he just didn't play anything. I dont think anyone would believe that rob doesn't know how to pilot a shops deck extremely well.

so unless he has a hand with two threats to deploy one the first turn, I have a very decent chance to win the game. The 4 rituals just makes that a little more consistent. Of course that's not to say that rituals don't come with weaknesses.  Obviously, strengthening one situation weakens another. There's just no getting around that fact.

As additional data, not that its a lot, but I just tested with Will Magraan tonight (4 rituals and no fast bond). we played 10 pre-board games and went 50-50. I won 4 of the games that I was on the play and 1 on the draw. I would say, as a guess because I didn't actually track that data, that my win percentage against shops in all the tournaments I've played has been about 40-50%.

The other major point in favor of rituals that I has been big for me is that it more often  allows a turn two win to include additional protection in the form of thought seize, spell pierce, flusterstorm, etc. That's been big for me, but again if you're not going for speed than this point is largely irrelevant.

As for the fastbond, its definitely true that it allows unique dd piles that cannot be replicated any other way and it does improve the ability of the deck to win via tendrils without dd, and it does make turn 1 wins a lot less common, but its also true that sometimes its almost dead. I originally cut it as an experiment. I just haven't missed it yet. I haven't yet walked away from a tournament won or lost thinking "man, I really missed fast bond".

Yes. Suboptimal decks can win. And they do quite often. That being said, we're discussing the finer points of list variations that both have a fairly strong history of success via multiple top 8s and via multiple pilots. so I don't think that's all that relevant here. more importantly there is nothing to learn from simply dismissing something as suboptimal. every innovation started as something that was most likely considered suboptimal. I'm sure that the first time Steve ever piloted dd, someone said or thought that it was junk, but that's long since been proven to be untrue.

Personally I don't think either 4 rituals vs 1/2 rituals or fastbond vs no fast bond is optimal all the time. I think they have all various strengths and weaknesses. as I've said I prefer the offensive strategy to a controlling strategy. I've played control decks before and I've won tournaments with them, but I never feel as confident with them as I do with an aggressive combo deck. Steve having far more vintage experience than I do, especially with control decks is significantly more comfortable with them and will probably have better results. My best results have been with 4 rituals.

I like the 4 rituals because it makes going off on turn 2 more consistent in addition to a few other more minor benefits, but there are definitely other ways to play the deck, with more control or more utility.  I just like opting for speed.

Your answer about Fastbond is exactly correct, Soly.  I cut Fastbond because too often when I was drawing it, it just wasn't action.  Furthermore, it's not really a card i wanted to see with only 1 Gush in hand because Gush is part of the combo.  So, I only really ever wanted it with 2 or more Gushes in hand, and that's usually enough to put together a win anyway.  So, I figured why not just go with more basics, especially since my area has high prevalence of shop decks.

I haven't tested your red version, but it seems good and very interesting, especially for chewers.  I also like your Gifts and/or Grim Tutor idea.  Those are excellent gas spells that I hadn't thought of.  I will very likely be trying those out.

I agree on the necro, it takes all of the surprise factor out and requires that you pass the turn, but you still can't easily pass the turn inside a DD pile.  Additionally, the deck isn't very bomb heavy.  While it runs 4 DD, I don't consider these 1 card bombs the way Jar, Bargain, Gifts, etc. tend to be, so drawing 10 cards to dig for a combination of 2 or 3 cards isn't nearly as good as digging for one or two 1 card bombs like in a more pitch-long style deck, and it costs a lot of life in a deck that already eats its own life quite a bit in a meta full of creatures.

The impulse is really an instant speed preordain.  I wanted another preordain (puts stuff on the bottom rather than shuffles) to improve my top decks, but I also wanted something for the end of my opponents turn.  I originally put it in there as another EoT draw spell for playing against Landstill.  I've been happy with it, but I'm actually cutting now as the meta is shifting more towards creature decks and less toward long-game spell-based control decks like landstill and UW Jace control.

The tournament was awesome!  Security was tight, and I had a great time.  Thanks to both Nicks and everyone who made this thing possible.  Keep it up!

Congratulations to Paul and the rest of the Top 8.

Can't wait for next year.

No.  I think every doomsday list, including my own, have been running fastbond, but I started to feel like it was a sacred cow.  I had more hands where fastbond was just getting in the way than I did where it was being useful.  Most of the time when I could win with fastbond, I could win anyway without it.

The only game where I missed fastbond was in a game against Ryan Bergemen playing U/W Landstill.  He had a Stony Silence on the field, which slowed me down given that I didn't have access to Fastbond.  So, with Gush in hand I resolved Doomsday and passed the turn.  With Fastbond, I could have won that turn, but I ended up winning anyway, just a turn or two later.  Though the game was a lot more interesting as a result.  That being said, that was the only time that I missed Fastbond at all.

I do like thoughtseize, but I probably wouldn't go down to 1 flusterstorm.  I love flusterstorm too much.

Yeah, the other cards are 4x Delta.

There's no argument here that Time Walk hasn't ever been the best card in the deck, and often it's been very lack luster, but I have been reluctant to cut it for two main reasons.

1. Is its synergy with Gush as Steve said.  Being able to have Gush act as a draw two with almost no down side because of the additional land drop is very useful.

2. It's role in DD piles is unique.  No other card can do everything it does when you need it to simultaneously like dodge misstep, draw a single card, add mana (assuming you're tapped down), protect against Jace, etc.

2a. There is also the somewhat relevant, although niche, unique affect of being the only draw spell that you can use to enter a DD pile that you can before you give away the information that you are casting DD.  Again, not that big of deal, but worth noting, I think.

It was 9 and a doomsday, I think.  Regardless, I have to say that Landstill deck was definitely one of your better ones, and I think that it is definitely a tier 1 deck capable of beating multiple archetypes.

I'd say it's definitely possible to beat workshops without full mana acceleration, but I also feel like it definitely helps, coming from someone who consistently faces off against shops without full moxen and still has a very difficult time winning.  I think the biggest difference is, as Will said, the overall deck design (26 mana sources versus my 21 post board, red anti-shops cards versus blue and green, spell pierces versus flusterstorms/missteps, etc.) that makes the matchup so strong, not just the lack of moxen.

Great tournament Shawn, as always!

Congrats to Josh and the rest of the Top 8.  The final match was indeed extremely tight.  I really thought I had you when I could go off with 5 counterspells to back it up, but you played it very well.  I do miss the days when you underestimated the deck.

The swarms may or may not have been helpful.  I've played them against Josh, specifically, a few times before and they only seemed to make a difference if I stuck them early and went off early.  After about turn 2 or 3, they are significantly less valuable.

I just want to congratulate the top 8 and Greg for winning.  Very well deserved, Greg.

I also want to thank Nick and Nick for running great tournaments and an awesome series.  I definitely agree with Paul that the points definitely made things more interesting and added another level to the tourneys.  I'd love to see another series run.

Finally, I want to thank the community.  The players are really what makes vintage worth playing.  There's no other magic tournament I can go to where I know every single person in the room (even if I sometimes forget names).

2012 was an awesome year, and I can't wait to start 2013.

lol  it's never a dull moment.  That's for sure.

Oh man.  Don't encourage him.  I have to test all those with him!!

I guess I should just be glad that Battle of Wits isn't on that list.

Can't wait for the tourney Nick and Nick.  It's been awesome year, and I think this will be an awesome finale.

Great player; great article; great guy.

I would love to see more from the godfather.

I thought this article was great, and I think this is a great way to dispel many of the myths surrounding vintage as well as show off some of the most ridiculous plays in magic, like this one.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44209.0

Honestly, I think the deck's pretty legit, having played against it twice on Saturday (6 total games, i think).  It was very consistent and had a pretty quick clock while maintaining a fair amount of control.

Two of the games, I was forced to try and combo out for the win because I would lose on the following turn, and I was still met with Force, Daze, Flusterstorm, and two Cursecatchers.  Not to mention, the one game I kept a hand with double force double misstep and some other stuff, only to get obliterated by uncounterable dudes with Cavern.

Seems pretty good to me.

Also, congrats to both Nick and Matt.  Well deserved.

Matt Elias
Josh Potucek
Shawn Griffiths
Allen Fulmer
Rob Edwards

The rise of creature decks does make the 2 life more important, but it also means that there are plenty more targets.  Paying two life to copy a Goyf is a lot better than letting that Goyf attack into you every turn.  Similarly, an unchecked Trrygon simply wins the game, but metamorph can stop it (assuming that the opponent doesn't have exalted creatures).  It can also copy welder, which can often (though not always) save you from getting welded out of the game.

I think the biggest difference is that metamorph can do all of the things that scultping steel can do, and it answers some of the better maindeck anti-shops cards, like oath creatures, trygon, robot, etc.  Personally, I think the versatility is really the difference.

First of all, I liked the article, and I especially like and agree with Shops possibly being a new predator for Dredge.  I've felt like the dredge matchup has continuously gotten stronger for shops over time, and Cage only continues that pattern.

As for Espresso Stax, I was always under the impression that "Stax" was the Prison style of shops (using Smokestack as the primary win condition) and the "Espresso" indicated that the deck was mono-brown.  I think the serum powder/metamorph package is more equivalent to a blue deck's draw engine, except in this case it's a redundancy engine.

It's not so much a question of whether or not Extraction is good enough for the main deck, as opposed to being a question of what would be cut from the main deck.  It's easy to board in Extraction in because you can just take out the cards that are weak in that particular matchup, but that doesn't really work for altering the main deck.  Plus, it's harder to use Extraction as effectively in game 1 because you haven't seen as much of their deck.

I haven't had too much problem with dredge using that anti-dredge package, and it splashes well onto other decks., but I do have to mulligan pretty aggressively to find a good assortment of hate and protection.  The extractions, for example, are also good in the blue match-ups for hitting fetches, forces, messing up top-deck tutors, etc.

I like the Sphere package in a Blue heavy meta.  When there's more shops running around, i generally drop down to just the 4 spheres.

I wasn't even thinking about it in terms of misstep.  Though, I've had that happen in testing a few times; there's not much worse than losing a game because you got set back a turn by a single misstep.

I don't think it's so much that Lotus is bad.  But I also don't think the deck needs it.  The vast majority of turn 1 plays are tend to be Sphere/Thorn on the Play (hopefully with a Chalice on 0) or Tangle Wire on the draw.  The latter play is an excellent example of Lotus's weakness.  Wasteland, Lotus, Tangle Wire isn't a good play unless I have another Workshop in hand.  In either case, you can only get one use out of Lotus, so you can't ever rely on it for a sustained board development.  Mana Vault is exactly the same thing, the biggest difference being that after the one use, it just sits there until you can use it as smokestack fodder.

Lotus is much better in other woskhop builds because they go more on speed than stax does, imo.  Stax is all about slowly eliminating what your opponent can play until they can't play anything at all.

Thanks everyone.

I have what might be an irrational love for serum powder.  I tried to cut it a few times, but my mulligans always seem to much worse than than the value gained from the additional threats.

From Nick D, the master himself, Lotus isn't a stable permanent, and smokestack really wants to have stable as many stable permanents as possible.  Especially with powders to find workshops, I've never missed lotus.

First of all, the new store and the tournament were both awesome.  It was a lot of fun; the turnout was great, and I even saw a few people coming out of the woodwork.

I ended taking home my first win ever with, surprise surprise, Stax.  Here is the list and my matches.  Sorry if get anyone’s name wrong or something.

1   Tolarian Academy
4   Ancient Tomb
4   Mishra's Workshop
1   Strip Mine
4   Wasteland
3   Mishra's Factory
   
1   Mana Vault
1   Mana Crypt
1   Sol Ring
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
   
4   Chalice of the Void
3   Crucible Of Worlds
4   Smokestack
4   Tangle Wire
1   Trinisphere
4   Sphere of Resistance
2   Thorn of Amethyst
   
3   Phyrexian Metamorph
4   Lodestone Golem
2   Karn, Silver Golem
   
4   Serum Powder

Sideboard
4   Leyline of the Void
2   Pithing Needle
1   Phyrexian Metamorph
3   Dismember
3   Surgical Extraction
2   Duplicant

Rd 1 – Ray Robillard playing Landstill
G1: I opened with Trinisphere, but I can’t remember if got countered or just didn’t matter in the long run.  I ended up having to suicide stack to clear the board, except I had three mana on the table.  I hit a crucible, which allowed me to rebuild my manabase and play Karn which got there.

G2: Ray got 2 Energy Fluxes out and wiped my board, but he didn’t have much else.  So, I started beating in with Factories using an Ancient Tomb, which is always an interesting race.  Eventually he hit Wasteland, then Crucible.  I tried to Extraction his Wasteland, but he Forced it, and he took it down from there.

G3: I got a turn 1 or 2 Lodestone, followed by a Wire, and Phyrexian Metamorph, which was enough.

Rd 2 – William Dayton playing Painter
G1: I got out an early Smokestack and a Chalice on 1 after I saw a Painter.  I eventually hit Crucible to Stabilize, and beat down with Factories.

G2: Nothing terrible relevant happened in the first few turns, then he Forced a Crucible and Mystical-ed at the end of the turn.  I then, Extraction-ed his Force and shuffling his Recall back.  This left him with Ingot Chewer and Grindstone with only two lands in hand.  He missed the land drop, and I played Trinisphere and Waste.  Then, I got Strip lock and beat down with Factories.

Rd 3 – Mark Hornung playing Clamp Control
G1: Unfortunately for Mark, he mulliganed so much that I started to think he was playing Dredge and that he was just messing with me when he said he was on blue.  I opened with Tangle Wire, then Crucible, then Stip Mine and Sphere.

G2: I opened with another Tangle Wire.  I followed it up with Karn and another Tangle Wire.  That as enough to get there.

Rd 3 – Josh Potucek playing Landstill
G1: I opened with  Lodestone, which stuck.  Then, I stuck a Metamorph, and that was enough.  Josh told me that he re-tooled his list to beat blue, so I wasn’t surprised when something like 9 cards were being boarded in.

G2: Basically, he slowed me down until I stuck a Smokestack, and I rode that out for a while beating down with Factories.  Unfortunately, by the time Josh hit the red mana needed for Ingot Chewers, it was too late.

Rd 5 – ID with Paul

Rd 6 – ID with Gans

Rd 1 T8 – Rematch with Mark
G1: I stuck a Karn and Tangle Wire, and that got there.

G2: Mark landed a turn one Tinker Colossus, which I couldn’t answer.

G3: I landed a Sphere, then a Tangle Wire, then a Karn, and that was enough.

Rd 2 T8 – Josh Roades playing Demon Oath
This was probably the craziest most intense match all day.

G1: He managed to stick an early Oath and give me a token.  I knew I couldn’t stop the Oath, so I played a Smokestack and Wasted his Oath, and there was a Sphere on the table.  He Oathed up a Demon but couldn’t play anything.  So, I ramped my stack and played Tanglewire.  He couldn’t Oath again, but he had just enough permanents to keep swinging with Demon, so I had to ramp stack again.  I eventually got a Crucible with a Strip mine in the yard and locked him out that way.  I was on 5 life before he was forced to sacrifice the demon to the stack, and it was the last permanent that he had to sacrifice.

G2: He landed a turn 1 oath with orchard.  I played a tangle wire hoping to buy some time and hit something relevant.  I, then, wasted his Orchard so that he couldn’t Oath up a third demon.  With the second demon, he found another Orchard, and I tried to Extraction the Orchard in his yard, but he Forced it gave me another token, and hit the third demon, so my dupe wasn’t going to be enough.

G3: I open with Chalice on 0 and Chalice on 2.  Then, I land a Smokestack, followed by Tangle Wire.  Then, he turns the tables playing land, Sabotage on Chalice on 0, lotus, sapphire, will, sabotage, on Chalice on 2, hurkyl’s, oath, but he doesn’t have an orchard.  I play chalice on 1 and 2, then smokestack.  He then, gets an orchard and oaths up demon.  I’m forced to ramp smokestack to try and kill the demon and the oath before he kills me.  I ramped smokestack to three in case he has a Force of will for the dupe that I play, which would allowed him to keep the demon and swing for the kill, but he doesn’t.  The Stack clears his board, and I have Chalice on 0, 1, and 2 and a 6/6 dupe, and that was it.

Final - Jake Gans playing BUG
G1: I landed a Chalice on 0 and Sphere, into Lodestone or something like that.  All I remember is that he never really got going as he didn’t have a great hand for my deck and didn’t draw anything either.

G2: We both kept hands that were pretty all in on one strategy.  He kept a hand with 3 Remoras, and my hand was Factory x3, Sapphire, Thorn, Dismember, Dupe.  When played the first remora, I just played my factories and started beating.  He eventually played a goyf, but couldn’t get it big enough to survive my 4/4 Factory.  Eventually, I got though.

Props: The tourney and venue were awesome.
Every single one of my matches were fun, and all of my opponents were very nice and fun to play against.

Slops: Getting lost on the way to the tourney.  Then, listening to John Jones and walking the opposite way from the parking lot.

John Jones's votes:

John Jones (shocker)
Josh Potucek
Shawn Anthony

I'm gonna have to go with:
John Jones
Shawn Anthony
Josh Potucek

Personally, I think you're new philosophy qualifies as next level tech, and you're joke decks have been pretty damn good recently.  Cat Stax Fever wasn't too bad for a joke deck.

Nice report.

I'll be there, with as much of my crew as I can get, except for that loser going on a cruise.

This is definitely a good point.  We haven't gone back to these since we splashed black.  Not as sure about Fact (because it's less controllable), but Gifts could definitely be the card we've been looking for.  And EOT bait would definitely be relevant in a lot of games.

As for the light manabase, it's definitely true that there are fewer pieces of mana, but it's also true that those pieces tend to add more mana (i.e. grim monolith, or moxen with key), and the high basic count definitely helps stabilize the manabase against wasteland decks.  Additionally, Grim Monolith has been very crucial in the shops matchup.  As a shops player testing against this deck, turn 1 grim monolith was a very bad sign for me, and it often resulted in me losing the game.  Suddenly my spheres to buy turns were much less valuable.

John asked me to comment on some of our card choices and testing results in relation to what's being discussed.

Academy Ruins and Regrowth:  We tested both of these cards out for a while (regrowth when we included green) and came to the conclusion that they were unnecessary, especially after we finally added YawgWill.  Being able to recur Time Vault only came up very very occasionally, and wasn't worth the non-basic, non-blue-producing land.  Additionally, in those situations tinker bot and Tezz ultimate were both still very threatening wincons.  In the beginning, we definitely undervalued Tezz's ultimate as a true wincon (without infinite turns).  Running so many artifacts makes it quite easy to simply drop tezz and win on the next turn without Time Vault (this often came through against Null Rod).  The fact that bob is not as popular is definitely a big plus here.

Additional Keys: We started with three keys and three tops,, but dropped to two keys because there isn't a whole lot of value to multiple keys.  Yeah you can add that much more mana or draw an extra card with top but the deck doesn't need quite that much mana and the top interaction wasn't worth the slot.  A lot of the power of this deck comes from simply digging into the deck for relevant cards, and key was a card that was often not relevant.

Welder (mostly on the mana base):  One of the things that we (John especially) liked about the deck was the high number of basics.  He loves being able to grab island after island.  In fact, we tried to keep the sideboard mono blue as well, but the REBs proved to be too good to pass up.  That being said, welder definitely has potential in this deck and we haven't tested it directly.

4cc cards:  Surprisingly, this comes down to available mana.  The deck tends to eat a fair amount of mana as it is with top and key for extra draws.  More importantly, having the blue mana for counter magic is vital as the deck runs a tight mana base as far as blue count.  Additionally, John often said that he felt that FoF, Gifts, and Thirst "just don't get there".

Thoughtcasts: This was one of our tougher decisions.  In the beginning, this was essentially our central design point.  However when testing with Will Magran, he made the suggestion that we try out Spell Pierces and reduce our Drain count.  We went from 4 Force and 3 Drain to 4 Force, 3 Pierce, and 2 Drain.  This, obviously, slowed the deck down a little bit, but it also made it easier to play relevant spells on turn 1 and 2 like top, key, preordain, brainstorm, recall, etc.  because it wasn't necessary to sit on the mana for drain as often.  As the deck slowed down, the value of Thoughtcasts and the other fast mana began to decrease.  John was also still looking to increase the basic count by removing the Seat of the Synods, so Thoughtcasts came out.  The result was a lot more consistency, for a minor loss in speed.  In a more blue heavy metagame (or combo heavy), the thoughtcasts and seats would probably go back in for the speed boost.

Robots:  Currently, John has been very happy with BSphere because of how well it handles shops.  But we still have a slot that we haven't been able to fill with confidence.  We've tried Timetwister, Jar, Regrowth, and a couple others.  A second robot might definitely be able to fill this slot.  BSC is a likely candidate because it is very often better against blue decks than BSphere.  The only thing I'm concerned with is the ability to hardcast it.  Our original bot was Inkwell, which was still easily castable and can be pitched to Force, but BSC's speed might still prove to be better.