Thank you.

Your site is an awesome resource, far more indepth with a lot more archeatypes and variations covered than in SC's list.

Two things you're missing is a U/R/W Fish list (retains strength against both Aggro and Combo) and a current U/R Fish list. Almost none of the current lists run Voidmage Prodigy or 2 Fairie Conclaves.

To help you out, here are more current variations...

Mana Base

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby

Creatures

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Draw

4 Curiosity
4 Standstill

Disruption/Counter

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle
3 Null Rod
1 Crucible of Worlds

That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard

4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Annul
4 Energy Flux

Fish is pretty good now. Trinisphere restriction helps things a bit. Null Rod is useful again. 5/3s are less common. So 4 Energy Flux and 4 Annul help you have a solid matchup against Workshop decks of all flavor and Annul works wonders against Oath and other combo decks.

All Fish needs now is some way to deal with combo. Being able to play 4 Meddling Mage and Swords help out in this area.

So for a URW variant...

Mana Base

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

Creatures

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Meddling Mage

Draw

4 Curiosity
4 Standstill

Disruption/Counter

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle
3 Null Rod
2 Swords to Plowshore

That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard

4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Annul
2 Energy Flux
2 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshore
1 Stifle
1 Blue Elemental Blast  
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Crucible of Worlds

I like the original list, it's very similar to what I play.

Here are just a few changes that help with consistancy IMO.

Mana Base

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby

Creatures

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ninja of Deep Shadow

Draw

4 Curiosity
4 Standstill

Disruption/Counter

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle
3 Null Rod
1 Crucible of Worlds

That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard

4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Annul
4 Energy Flux (4 Energy Flux is a MUST! It absolutely wrecks workshop decks especially since they can't use Workshop mana to pay it's costs and you can waste away their Ancient Tombs.)

The deck is pretty good now. Trinisphere restriction helps things a bit. Null Rod is useful again. 5/3s are less common. So 4 Energy Flux and 4 Annul help you have a solid matchup against Workshop decks of all flavor.

All Fish needs now is some way to deal with combo. I upped the number of counters (Dazes rock) and can sometimes buy enough time with them to search up and play a Null Rod or Energy Flux. But I wouldn't mind being able to play 4 Meddling Mage and a Swords to help out too.

So for a URW variant, something like this could work...

Mana Base

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

Creatures

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Meddling Mage

Draw

4 Curiosity
4 Standstill

Disruption/Counter

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle
3 Null Rod
2 Swords to Plowshore

That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard

4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Annul
1 Disenchant
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swords to Plowshore
1 Stifle
1 Energy Flux
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Crucible of Worlds

It really does depend on the build.

The u/r/g variant I use runs 0 fairie conclaves (too crappy IMO), 4 Mishra's Factories, 4 Grim Lavamancers, 4 Quirion Dryad and 4 Cloud of Faries. After extensive testing, I determined that Standstill was simply a superior option in my particular build.

A similar build with 0 Cloud of Faries might lead to a different conclusion.

Like I already said, Null Rod is better against control because of the casting cost.

But Energy Flux is better due to the fact that control always has some low casting cost way to remove either Null Rod or Energy Flux whether maindeck artifact removal or a disenchant type effect.

Once Null Rod is removed, all the artifacts are reactivated while artifacts sacrificed to Energy Flux will never pose a problem again.

If you can daze a key spell that would wreck you and you don't have a FoW, you should, even if it means waiting a turn longer to play Energy Flux. If the spell isn't that critical or you can't stop it with a daze, then Energy Flux is better.

There is no question that Energy Flux is stronger against Workshop decks. And these decks are rapidly proving to be possibly the strongest archeatype in type one thanks in part to new threats like CoW and 3sphere and other all of which are immune to Null Rod. Workshop decks are in my belief also Fish's hardest matchup. 4c control and random aggro are more managable due in part to the splashed Dryad. And Flux isn't a bad card against 4c control. Fast combo doesn't seem to be too common in the North American meta partially due to the widespread use of 4c control and Fish.

As a result, I believe that 2 MD Energy Flux is a wise metagame choice.

I'm very happy to hear that. I didn't find workshop too hard a matchup either. But there are a few variants, workshop aggro, that can be a pain if you don't have an early dryad to deal with them. But an early dryad wrecks that strategy. This is why I never bothered to maindeck Oxidize and only play 3-4 antiartifact cards in the sideboard.

Specifically what workshop variants have you played against? And what's your build like? Is it identical to the one I use (found in the original post) or does it MD oxidize and play more antiartifact spells sideboard.

I agree that getting to three mana with wastelands and daze is the toughest part with any fish deck. But fish can still certainly opt to delay wasting a land or dazing a spell one more turn if the card is going to have such an explosive impact on the game. My mainpoint in the other thread was that a 3/3 creature with no abilites is not such a card, but Energy Flux against any artifact based deck or even other powered decks that already have a couple of artifact mana sources in play is certainly worth it. If not, it can always be pitched to FoW.

The reason I'm suggest Energy Flux in place of a Null Rod and Gorilla Shaman is  that it serves a very similar purpose. It effectively negates ALL artifact mana sources and forces your opponent to sacrifice them. Cards like oxidize effectively deal with one and only artifact, whether a mana source or otherwise. This is why Null Rod is such an incredibly powerful card while cards like Oxidize while versatile don't have nearly as game altering an effect and don't win games by themselves usually. Energy Flux however does in a manner very similar to Null Rod. And it deals with a great many more artifacts than Null Rod does. Except for some very specific and somewhat rare situations (Triskelion, Mask etc), Energy Flux is almost always more disruptive and effective against a great many more threats than Null Rod. This as well as it's resistence to chalice for 2 may well make the card worth MDing.

The time has come that Workshop based decks are probably the deadliest most ruthless decks in type 1. They pack many many bombs all of which are fully capable of winning the game primarily by themselves and take up atleast a few slots at every top 8 list. And Null Rod no longer suffices. It and does nothing against most of Workshops worst threats (Crucible, Trinisphere, Sphere, artifact creatures etc.) and is now easily played around. Energy Flux serves a similar function in that it denies them access to their mana but also has the added bonus of being a nice surprise that allows you to ignore their Chalice for 2 and combined with 5 Wasteland easily denies them the ability to keep more than one artifact in play at any time in the early to mid game. And the additional mana cost isn’t a factor under Trinisphere. A resolved Energy Flux means that you probably won, Null Rod usually does little more than slow them down.

Obviously, there are some matchups where Energy Flux is significantly worse. Tendrils based combo decks that can win over the span of the same turn aren’t fazed by Energy Flux while Null Rod decimates them. And the fact that Energy Flux comes out a turn later doesn’t help it’s case. But in metas where these decks aren’t too common or easily hated out, this probably isn’t a very significant factor. There are also many insignificant decks that no longer see much play such as Mask against which Energy Flux is much worse.

Against decks such as 4c control, Null Rod is better simply because of the lower casting cost. But the fact that Energy Flux forces them to sac their moxen is a large boon since disenchanting the Null Rod to reactivate the moxen seems to be the method of choice in dealing with it for 4c Control. But the single use that 4c control gets out of it’s moxen probably negates this. Energy Flux also helps in being a pitchable blue card and an additional way to pump Dryad in fish variants that choose to use it.

So what I am recommending is 2/2 configuration of Null Rod/Energy Flux (the 4th replacing the Gorilla Shaman) for fish in a meta where Workshop decks are common place. It’s what I’m currently trying.

There are probably a few other factors or pros/cons that I forgot to mention or simply hadn’t noticed yet. What do you think? Could this be the answer that Fish is looking for in order to have a chance against Workshop decks? It seems very viable now more than ever that Fish’s dominance have forced many decks to reduce their reliance on artifacts with activation costs in favor of those that don’t.

In the games I've played online, the 2/2s do a decent job of winning the game once the mana denial hits home. But I do agree that there aren't many beats. This is why I'm considering using Mishra's Factories as well.

Workshop decks have a hard time with the mana denial. And welders never survive for long if at all. Duress helps a bit. The worst card for this deck seems to be Smokestack and between the duress and workshop decks cutting back on them, it's not quite as big an issue. Tangle Wire can be a pain but the Welder hate and manadenial help ensure that there isn't much the Workshop player can do with those two extra turns.

This thread serves to determine if a black hate deck can do well in this meta and to optimize it if it can.

I want to start by saying that the only testing this deck has had was online. I simply don't have far too many of the cards to be able to run it in person. So the deck could well suck and the online victories just flukes as I have found testing online can sometimes be. If the mods don't believe that this deck can be competitive, i have no problem with them moving it to the newbie forum.

Now for the cards...

Mana
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring and/or Black Lotus (I don't like the Lotus since I don't want the Crucible welded out)
Swamps
Fetchlands (to abuse Welder and or to splash a color)
4 Dark Ritual

Mana Denial
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Null Rod
4 Sinkhole

Tog/4c Control Hate
3-4 diabolic edict
3-4 chains of Mephistopheles

Other Disruption
4 Duress
2-3 Withered Wretch

Fish/Welder/Goblin Hate
4 Plaguespitter
3 Cabal Torturer or Plague Witch or Funeral Charm

Broken
1 Demonic  Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgie’s Will

Other cards that I considered...
Hymn to tourach
Hypnotic Sceptar
Phyrexian Negator
Funeral Charm – instant discard
Cabal Ritual
Mind twist
Coffin purge
Mishra's Factory - helps abuse the Crucible some more.

The deck, atleast from what I've seen, does a great job of hating out much of the metagame. It packs numerous bombs against every archeatype. The only archeatypes that I forsee giving it a very hard time are...
Landstill
Dragon
Madness
Food chains goblins

Unfortunately, I haven't yet faced any of these decks except for Food Chains Goblins. And this deck seems to have a fair shot at beating FCG thanks to the goblin hate and the mana denial. As for the others, Dragon is hurt by Chains and the mana denial and is very easy for Black to hate out post sideboard (Planar Void, Coffin Purge etc.) and none of the others seem to be too played much at all in type 1 right now.
 
Tell me what you think. I honestly believe that simply because of the mana denial and the sheer number of bombs this deck packs, it has a great shot at evolving into something competitive given enough tweaking.  But only testing and intelligent discussion/modification can prove me right.

If you can find the room, any splash can help green for cards like naturalize and pernicious deed and possibly rootmaze, blue for brokeness, stifles etc, red for more artifact hate, and white for stuff like swords, vindicate and seal of cleansing.

Many of you seem to be advocating MD oxidize primarily as a way of dealing with Crucible of Worlds.

But as has been said in the past, the best solution to a Crucible is to run one of your own.

I've tested Crucible in this deck and it's an extremely strong card. I would prefer to run it over Oxidize maindeck atleast since it not only deals with opposing Crucibles but is such a bomb against everything, not just Workshop decks and is NEVER dead whether recurring wastelands, fetchlands, or factories.

I've had trobule finding room for it, but if need be, I would be willing to cut a Daze (or Cloud of Faries) and a Dryad to squeeze in 2 crucibles. It might be wise to cut a Cloud of Faries over a Daze since Crucible makes Daze that much more powerful.

MD oxidize is nice against certain decks, namely workshop decks. But I would much rather just run an extra null rod against any other deck. oxidize is not necceasry IMO.

I am not sure that artifact hate really does warrant so many sideboard slots especially considering that the blue elemental blasts, fire/ice, and even lavamancers all hate out welders.

So would three slots, one of each, suffice?

What's with all these people calling for the restriction of Wasteland. Wasteland is not restriction worthy, unless you are argueing that Fish with Crucible is broken...



You do have a point there JackPot. I don't think Crucible is really restriction worthy in any situation except in what it does in Workshop decks. Playing it off just one land, and worse yet, a land that can play help you play everything from Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance and can abuse Sundering Titan and Mindslaver to a degree they were never meant to be. Workshop decks can pack an extremely high density of game ending threats all of which can be cast either turn one off Workshop or turn two via Welder.

I honestly think that any restriction at this point is premature. But if Workshop decks do prove to be downright broken at some point in the near future as they well might, then something needs to be done to weaken them slightly. And as suggested in the original post, perhaps restricting something like Mishra's Workshop maybe a better option in this situation than restricting Crucible. The last block has undeniably given the land an extraordinary number of tools to abuse.

The card seems to be popping up all over the place.

Many people have compared Crucible of Worlds to Black Vise in that it completely hoses control decks that don't pack enough cards to deal with it.

Reports of games being decided by who drops a Crucible first or games being tied because both players managed to drop a Crucible are widespread.

There is little doubt that combined with Trinisphere, Null Rod no longer sufficently hurts Workshop decks.

Some people even seem to be calling for it's restriction.

The single copy that most decks seem to run is probably not abusive enough to be considered meta distorting.

But what about the workshop variants that are packing 4 Trinisphere, 4 Crucible (along with the strip effects) and even more mana denial elements such as Tangle Wire or Sphere of Resistence. Does the ability of Workshop decks to relatively consistently be able to lay a turn one Trinisphere (to bait out FoW) and a Cruicible turn two along with a Wasteland turn two make the archeatype significantly deadlier? Against decks where the FoW isn't a concern, any Workshop player will probably outright win turn one or two whether with Trinisphere or with Crucible of Worlds. Is any non blue based deck capable of dealing with a start like that?

In short, do you think that the meta will rapidly shift in the coming few months as a result of Crucible?

I suspect that Crucible only becomes broken in decks where playing three copies are so is worthwhile and plausible and that pretty much brings the count down to Workshop decks. It seems to me that Workshop variants that abuse Crucible could well dominate the format.

Obviously, a card like Trinisphere pumped out by Workshop can be quite devastating as well. The problem seems to be that Workshop decks now seem to have far too many game winning bombs all possible first turn with a Mishra's Workshop or just a couple of Mox, and the type 1 catch all defence (Null Rod) doesn't effect many of them. The must counter count in workshop decks is already up to Crucible of Worlds, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Goblin Welder (complete with Sundering Titans and Platinum Angels), Mindslaver as well as Smokestack, Tangle Wire and Sphere of Resistence which slow you down to a crawl if not countered. There are only so many threats that mulliganing into a Force of Will can deal with. Combined with Null Rod and Welder hate cards like Fire/Ice and Blue Elemental Blasts, mullignaing into a Force of Will was just barely enough to have a decent shot at stopping a Workshop lock before Crucible of Worlds was printed. Now with yet another incredibly powerful card added to Workshop's list of must counters, will any decks that can't win first turn be able to take on Workshop decks turn one. Or will we be left with another situation like growatog created, you must either dedicate maindeck slots to hating out (maindeck artifact hate) Workshop or be playing it or atleast playing a deck that can combo out first turn as long as it doesn't face a trinisphere or sphere of resistance by then. I'm not sure if the situation is quite that drastic yet. But it well might be getting there. And if it ever does, a restriction of Workshop might be the next step. After all, as Rasko put it, unrestricted Workshop in artifact decks is like an unrestricted Black Lotus in artifact decks.

I've always been of the opinion that Time Walk is a card that MUST be played in any blue based deck, no questions asked.

That's because an extra turn is ALWAYs a good thing. Even if used as a cantrip, Time Walk makes it so that you are effectively playing 59 cards instead of 60. But just about every single time, Time Walk is a lot more than a cantrip. It gives you an extra land drop and an extra attack and if you have a dryad, a +1/+1 or if you have a curiosity yet another card! Just the land drop alone (thus allowing you to either waste a land, recover from using a daze, dropping or activating a lavamancer in addition to whatever else you would have done had you not cast Time Walk) makes it a lot more worthwhile than any cantrip, the other stuff is just gravy. This is a HUGE tempo boost in a deck that wins based on Tempo. Thus if it truly is impossible to find something to cut, I would rather play 61 cards in Fish rather than cut Time Walk. And I see no reason why anyone else shouldn't do the same.

In short, if you have to add crucible, there has to be something else to cut than one of the most broken cards ever printed. Perhaps a Cloud of Fairies or a Daze or possibly even a Null Rod. If not, just play 61 cards. You're still better off than cutting Time Walk.

I do like the sideboard.  Mine has a few differences though.

This is my sideboard (I modified it to not hurt the use of dryad much)...

1 Null Rod
2 Stifle (great against both control and combo and workshop's wastelands)
2 Fire/Ice (more versatile than Maze of Ith since they can take out Welders and also pump up dryad)
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Gorilla Shaman (Was Crucible of Worlds for a while but I realized that Crucible of Worlds is good against too many decks to be played in the sideboard. It should be maindecked if at all possible.)
2 Rack and Ruin

I have a question to other fish players that frequently face Workshop decks. Is the additional 2 Rack and Ruin (bringing the artifact destruction count up to 4) absolutely essential to have a favorable match up against various Workshop variants if you are already running so much other artifact hate (Null Rod, Shaman) and welder hate (BeB, F/I) along with a lot of counter magic?

Congrats.

I have to wonder though. The deck seems really heavy on mana denial.  Isn't 4 Gorilla Shaman overkill when you're playing Null Rod. Have you ever felt that you draw into too much mana denial and not enough threats? I think replacing a few of these with Skyshroud Elite (the green 1 drop that a 2/3 if your opponent controls a nonbasic) could be nice.

Very good question EvilSirMark. No I actually haven't ever used Brainstorm with Quirion Dryad. I've never throughly tested Brainstorm in Fish to be honest. I never liked the idea but I simply don't have enough experience with it to be able to make the judgment. What I can say with confidence is that Dryad and Standstill are not unsynergic though they might seem so at first glance. As I mentioned, this deck plays 29 spells that are neither green nor colorless. With the only exceptions being 4 Spiketail Hatchling and 1 Time Walk (which doesn't count since it gives you an extra turn anyways), every single one of these cards can be cast third turn along with Standstill. The probability is very very low that you if you cast the dryad second turn (or first turn with a mox) that you will not be able to cast another nongreen noncolorless spell prior to casting the standstill on the third turn. In fact, the odds are very much in your favor that you will be able to cast two spells after casting the dryad but prior to casting standstill.

This is type one. In type 1 where fast aggro isn't that common (yet), a 3/3 (and oftentimes a 4/4) dryad under a standstill is almost never a bad position to be in. Their life total will start disappearing rapidly and they will be forced to break standstill asap. And this is how fish wins, by forcing them to break a standstill and giving you the advantage. What this also means is that the turn after dropping the standstill, you will draw atleast 4 more cards (if they break the standstill immediately) and thus will likely draw two more cheap spells that will pump the dryad some more.

It's pretty easy to see how quickly Dryad can grow as a result of standstill and how effective a threat it is when used along side it. In fact, a turn one moxed out dryad followed by a daze or FoW their turn or something and a turn two cloud of faries (and possibly something else like a lavamancer or curiosity), standstill (thus giving you a 4/4 or 5/5 dryad along with three extra cards turn two) is about as broken a play as I've ever seen. And it's quite feasible, or atleast something along those lines.

As for the 1 copy of Crucible of Worlds, I really would like to squeeze it in. The current build uses 3 moxen so it's quite castable. I simply can't find the room however. I will try cutting a Null Rod for it as you suggested but I am VERY skeptical that this is a good idea.

As for the River Boa vs Quirion Dryad debate, it's entirely a matter of personal preference. This build of this deck can support Dryad far better than any other variant of Fish I have ever seen. That's because this build plays 29 nongreen, noncolorless spells (essentially half the deck). In addition, every one of these threats is synegetic with dryad. Lavamancer is a very easy to cast one drop and is great against aggro by itself thus giving the aggro player yet another creature they have to remove asap. Cloud of Faries is free allowing you to play many spells each turn. Spiketail Hatchling is disruption and thus can protect the dryad. The remainder of the cards are either very cheap draw spells (getting you more cards that help you pump the dryad), or disruption (help you protect the dryad till it's out of burn range). The dryad is an absolutely perfect fit. And considering that this is easily one of the most broken draw engines in type 1 (5 Ancestral Recall and 4 Curiosity), the deck abuses dryad as much as some of the old gro variants! But unlike the old gro decks, this deck does fine even if it fails to protect the dryad. What I do need to finetune however is the sideboard. Against Artifact decks, I find myself bringing in too many green cards that aren't synegetic with the dryad when the Dryad is absolutely critical to the deck to be able to soon grow large enough to take on Su-Chis and Juggernauts etc. I will need to find a way to replace the oxidizes and naturalizes with Rack and Ruins and Artifact Mutations without leaving this deck more vulnerable to artifact aggro's mana denial post sideboard.

Green does add a great deal to Fish, there is no debating that. By I'm skeptical that any variant of Fish (including the wtf/r variant I use that is posted on this same forum) is better than U/r fish.

I guess it's because the deck has proven itself so many times in so many tournaments. But yes, U/r fish does have a hard time against aggro. Just how much do River Boa's help though? Chump blocking a fat creature is certainly not a permanent solution against a deck that plays many more. And grim lavamancer is quite good against aggro allowing your 1/1 flyers trade with Juggernauts and such.  Perhaps if you are concerning about the aggro match up, this could be a solid option http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18831 as could Jacob's original wtf/r.

As far as Eternal Witness is concerned, yes it's a very strong card. But if you can muster up the casting cost for it, isn't Troll Ascetic a extremely solid option as well. It is resiliant to all targeted removal as well as being able to regenerate and packing a body large enough to give just about any aggro deck a hard time. And Jacob seems to be enjoying using Call of the Herd in his fish variant so that is a worthy consideration

But there is a one concern regarding the use of 3 drops, any 3 drops including the Suq'Ata along with Standstill. Standstill is a strong option in a deck filled with 2 drops and cloud of faries. I'm not convinced it's nearly as strong in a deck packing numerous 3 drops. Wastelands and Dazes also aren't very synergetic with 3 drops as using them second turn is a critical component of fish.

Other than these concerns though, the deck does indeed seem strong. And I certainly don't have any experience with it so it seems wrong to comment on it. If it works for you, use it. But also keep the other fish variants that make use of green (wtf/r and my variant) as well.

The deck looks solid, I have a question regarding the sideboard.

How often do you find that you would be better off if the Rack and Ruin were Artifact Mutation.  I often prefer the lower casting cost (helps against land destruction) and the huge tempo boost (getting 10 1/1 counters when I destroy a 7/10) to the ability to take out what usually ends up being one big threat and a mox.

Time Walk I would argue is the most broken card in magic if not fighting for the slot with Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, and Yawgmoth's Will. Not only does it mean that you are essentially playing the 59 cards but it gets a whole another land drop (huge in landstill) and a whole another turn.

There is NO reason to cut Time Walk, ever.

Are you certain about the Animate Dead ruling? In our playgroup, we always played it so that we could Misdirect the Animate Dead so that it targets a creature in my graveyard (a sacced spiketail hatchling for example) rather than the Dragon in order to stop the combo from ever being initiated. But then again, we don't play very close attention to the stack and declaring each phase etc and may have simply missed the precise interaction.

Whether 3 Daze or 2 Daze is optimal is dependent on if you play that one Misdirection or not I suspect. If you do play a Misdirection, that's effectively five oppurtunities to pitch away additional Daze in the late game.

I did add the mox sapphire into the latest build.

As far as putting power in the sideboard, that's just not worthwhile. Fish has so many incredible sideboard options. There is no excuse for taking away three of them just for a little bit of potential acceleration.

I really would like to find the room the mox ruby, mox emerald, and black lotus maindeck. But that's simply not possible without either cutting the colorless mana sources (aka. wastelands - bad idea IMO) or cutting the threat count (leads to mana flooding too often IMO). So this is simply not an option. If you insist, it is possible to cut the fetchland count to six, cut the library of alexandria, and cut either yet another fetchland, a single wasteland or tropical island to accomidate a single mox ruby, mox emerald, and black lotus, but I'm not sure it's worth it.

If any of you wish to take my current build posted above and try...

-1 Library of Alexandria
-1 Flooded Strand
-1 Tropical Island (or Wasteland or another Flooded Strand)
+1 Mox Ruby
+1 Mox Emerald
+1 Black Lotus

and post your results, please do so. I would welcome any input you offer. It seems like a bad idea, but it maybe worthwhile as this deck is all about the early mana. I just don't see the wisdom in cutting into solid versatile mana sources for acceleration. With the acceleration, not having anything to do first turn is pretty rare and library quickly becomes a card only useful in the midgame after a standstill and curiosity so it's really a win more card. And the Mox Ruby and Mox Emerald should compensate for one of the fetchlands though it doesn't compensate for two.

I guess the general consensus seems to be...

Daze (for it's versatility) > Stifle (for it's tempo gain and sheer brokeness against certain matchups) > Misdirection

I agree with Daze being the best and most versatile (and really like the thought of playing atleast 3). 3 Daze is what I find to be the optimal number. This ensures that late game when everyone has a good bit of mana, extra daze can always be pitched to Force of Will. It also ensures that Daze shows up often enough that your opponent is forced to play around it (which can be huge especially if you already have a spiketail hatchling in play). But it still doesn't show up often enough that you are actually hurt more than they are by your opponents playing around it.

The main reason I dislike stifle is that it neccesitates leaving an island untapped (just in anticipation that the opponent may play a fetchland or combo out next turn) in a tempo deck that loves to and can and often will prefer to use every ounce of colored mana it can get it's hands on. The other reason that I dislike stifle is that it is a dead card a significant portion of the time. This deck is even more hungry than standard fish. It's designed to be played faster and more aggressively to function optimally. When played quickly, the deck can often feel downright broken (rare for a tempo deck I know). It really really hates the idea of leaving colored mana unused.

Half the time, your opponent goes first and will play and use up their first and only critical fetchland (only an inexperienced opponent would play a dual land over a fetchland first turn). After they get out their first fetchland, they probably don't have any more and if they do, they jsut aren't very important as they'll probably have either power or dual lands to back them up. If you tap out to play a null rod to shut down their power (and it's often smart to do so), your opponent now has the opening to play their fetchland. Even if you end up going first, how many turns can you afford to slow yourself down by leaving a blue mana source open anticipating a fetchland and forcing them to wait one more turn to play it.

And just how often are you going to draw that lone stifle in your opening hand anyways? The vast majority of the time, the stifle comes out too late to be able to stop either their fetchlands.

True, there are some decks that play more stifle targets than just their fetchlands. But just how many of these situations is stifle superior to simply dazing/countering their key spell. Far more often than not, it's often better to simply counter the spell than to let it resolve and stop an activation. The lone stifle is almost never going to be drawn early enough to stop fast combo either.

As far as bluffing, you don't need to play any copies of stifle to be able to bluff an experienced opponent. Either way, bluffing often doesn't work with stifle unless having that one fetchland stifled would utterly wreck their mana base since stifle can't be played around as easily as Daze.

I do still stand by the notion that a single Misdirection is worth considering after the third Daze however. Daze can be narrow too, and downright worthless in the late game. The way I see it, Misdirection is Force of Will number 5. Against Dragon, it can misdirect the reanimation spell just as easily as stifle can stop the combo. Against tendrils combo, misdirecting a single storm copy can often be enough to buy you a turn. Sure neither of these is quite as game ending as a stifle in the same situations. But either way, your opponent usually loses the game. And better yet, you don't need to leave a mana open to use Misdriection. But Misdirection is certainly more versatile. Whether misdirecting ancestral recall, using it to win a counter war, or misdirecting a pin point removal spell, Misdirection is just as good if not better than Force of Will in many of the situations where you need Force of Will the most. Playing more than 1 Misdirection is simply not worthwhile however as you end up discarding too many cards.

Good post.

I agree with you, if someone doesn't find a way to modify fish so that it can reliably beat aggro, the cycle is bound to continue indefinately.

That is precisely why this deck...

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18831

a variant of fish that uses dryad to post very solid results against aggro without losing a thing against control (except for allowing for a slightly more disruptable mana base) came into being.

If you do opt to cut the dryad count down to 3, then it yes it makes a lot of sense to cut that seventh fetchland/island for an additional volcanic island. After all, you need to reuse lavamancer, not the dryad.

I haven't ever been in a situation where the opponent wasted all of my volcanic islands though (not when there are better targets such as the mishra's factories, library of alexandria and my own wastelands to preemptively waste their wasteland). So I don't know how essential this is.

The reason I never got around to cutting the dryad is that it's just such a huge bomb. I worked the math out and approximately half of the games you play, you will be able to drop a dryad down 2nd or 3rd turn and get it to be atleast a 3/3 by next turn. Considering that all your disruption can be used even if you tap out, it's rarely a bad move to tap out to play a dryad. A 2nd or 3rd turn dryad completely wrecks just about every aggro deck I've faced including food chain goblins (essentially gobvantage since you WILL be able to stop their food chain). By next turn, they can't attack with any of their 2 power creatures. The turn after that, they can't attack, period unless they find someway to remove the dryad in spite of all the disruption you play to protect it. Between the 4 lavamancers and 4 dryads, this version of fish finally has a favorable matchup against just about every aggro deck I've played. So the decision on whether or not to cut the dryad, or if the dryad should be played at all, is entirely dependent on how often you can expect to face aggro in your meta. Though I will add that a 2nd or 3rd turn dryad gives any control match up a very hard time as well especially if they are forced to choose between removing the dryad and removing a curious fairie.

Any comments on the sideboard options? Are there any sideboard options that you think I left off or placed in the category?

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In the interest of development, there is one experiment that I would very much like to conduct. I think it's high time we determine once and for all if fish is indeed suboptimal for not utilizing a full set of power inspite of all the colorless mana in it's casting costs.

Here's a simple test, take two identical versions of fish with the only difference being the mana base. The powered version will replace the stripmine/wastelands with a full set of power since the Mishra's Factories are essential for the standstills to work properly. Yes this means that neither version should run null rod since a fully powered fish probably shouldn't run null rod and it's very important that the decklists be identical. Mask of Memory is a very synergetic option I picked up from browsing similar threads here. It should certainly be played in any version not running Null Rods. The slightly higher creature count is justified since you play even more draw that relies on attackers, and this draw can help you find the disruption you need faster.

The build uses a single copy of stifle, daze and misdirection so I would appreciate any insights you can provide on which card you are usually happier to draw. (Whenever you draw one of those cards, note down if you would have prefered one of the other two instead.) This experiment can be a very valuable one if conducted properly. If inspite of losing such a bomb as null rod, the unpowered version of fish still fares better than the powered version against a variety of decks, I think we can officially close the book on that argument.

Note, I know that WTF/r doesn't cut wasteland and strip mine and doesn't run mox pearl and mox jet (a lot of versions do run black lotus however). Truthfully, most of the time, the mox ruby and mox emerald are colorless sources since fish runs so few non blue spells. I'm not sure how big of a difference mox pearl and mox jet makes but while we are at it, if we're already running four pieces of power, we might as well go all out and add in a full playset of power. I had no alternative but to cut the wastelands to make room for this. There are only so many colorless mana sources that a deck like fish can run before the threat density becomes far too low to matter. And cutting into the Mishra's Factory count isn't an option, especially if we want to use standstill. So the wastelands got the boot, for the sake of this test. If you insist, you can instead replace the Mox Pearl and Mox Jet with a lone stripmine and wasteland. Neither version of the deck is optimal (the unpowered one for failing to use Null Rods and the powered one for not running any wastelands). But the only way any actual data can be collected from this test is if both versions are identical except for the manabase (powered vs. unpowered).

Here are the two variants I would like to test...

Fully Powered Fish

1 Gorilla Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Cloud of Fairies
4 Quirion Dryad

4 Force of Will
1 Daze
1 Stifle
1 Misdirection
2 Mask of Memory  
4 Curiosity
4 Standstill

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus

versus.

Unpowered Fish without Null Rod

1 Gorilla Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Cloud of Fairies
4 Quirion Dryad

4 Force of Will
1 Daze
1 Stifle
1 Misdirection
2 Mask of Memory
4 Curiosity
4 Standstill

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Sapphire

Unfortunately, due to me not possessing a registered magic workstation copy and my lack of a full playset of power in a playgroup where everyone seems to detest proxies, I haven't been able to conduct this test myself more than a few times. And the results are currently still mixed and inconclusive though I will be certain to come back and post any patterns I seem to be noticing. The only input I have to make on this currently is that I very often prefer that the MisD or Stifle was a Daze in either build. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with my personal playstyle or the decks themselves. Any one interested in joining me in doing such a test? All you have to do is play a couple of games with each version and post your opinions/findings. The more people's opinions we get, the better.

Thank you for the compliments.

Yes I very much would like to run 4 cloud of faries but I'm having trobule finding room for the fourth.

The disruption base is already too low for the deck to be cut into. I really would like to find room for it in the creature base as the deck already runs 16 creatures. Unfortunatley, all the alternatives are simply superior.

Depending on the metagame, it's possible to cut the gorilla shaman for the fourth cloud.  If you run dryads over the boas (a choice I highly recommend), it's also conceivable to cut the 4th dryad for the clouds as you rarely want to see more than 1 dryad per game anyways. This has the positive effect of making the dryad that much more powerful and also reduces your reliance on either color making situations where you have to choose which land to fetch for (when you have both a lavamancer and a dryad in hand) less likely. Before you question just how worthwhile the green splash for 3 maindeck cards is, consider a.) the lighter the splash, the more resiliant the mana base b.) the dryad is a huge bomb that outright wins many games including many of fish's most difficult ones c.) green gives you a wide array of very powerful sideboard bombs.

But I rarely regret seeing a dryad and am thus likely to leave the decklist as posted. The clouds, while an extremely nice and synergetic card, is still undeniably your weakest creature.

Speaking of sideboard options, I think it's time we consider the sideboard options. The obvious cards (the ones that I rely on) are as follows...

1 Null Rod
2-3 Red Elemental Blast
1-2 Blue Elemental Blast
2-3 Oxidize
2-3 Artifact Mutation
1-2 Rack and Ruin
0-3 Naturalize
0-2 Maze of Ith
0-2 Echoing Truth
0-2 Stifle
0-2 Fire/Ice
0-2 Crucible of Worlds
0-1 Gorilla Shaman
0-1 Misdirection

Here are the other option that I don't think are powerful enough to beat out the multitudes of better options at your disposal...

Ground Seal - Correct me if I am wrong but this doesn't shutdown Crucible of Worlds does it?
Sword of Fire and Ice - Might be too mana hungry and is easily stopped by Null Rods/Oxidizes if expected.
Firestorm - While a great card, the alternatives are more versatile.
Seal of Removal/Chain of Vapor - Echoing Truth is just more versatile.
Tormod's Crypt - Your alternatives are better if only because they aren't shut down by Null Rod.
Goblin Vandal - You have better options.
Razorfin Hunter - You have better options.
Sigil of Sleep - You have better options.
Suq'Ata Firewalker - Serves too narrow a purpose.

I think that pretty much covers just about every viable sideboard inclusion including any tech I can think of.

Lmk if you know of anything else.

Thx guys. I appreciate it.

I can see how the river boas are strictly superior options in wtf/r though. wtf/r cuts the cloud of faries. Running only 4 flyers (all 4 of which you may have to sac) means that curiosity is no longer the broken card drawer it once was. Also wtf/r runs a lot more green which hurts dryad. And it runs fatter creatures saccing the ability to play multiple cards per turn. It's not the ideal place for dryad.

In a deck like this however, the dryad can be abused. The evasion of the boas isn't nearly as important when running clouds.

I know this is about U/R fish. But if you do decide to splash green as well, dryad is a suprisingly potent way to outrace exalted angel in 4c control.

Any control player is too busy focusing on countering and dealing with your more immediate threats (curiosity, standstill etc) or swordsing your curious flyer than about dealing with the dryad. Plus, you do play a good bit of countermagic. Before they know it, it's a constantly growing 5/5 monster that can outrace their angel.

Who was it on here that initially suggesting using dryad in fish? I would be very interested to hear their thoughts on this. The dryad is something I really wouldn't have believed to work as well in fish as it is proving to. I would be very interested to hear from anyone that reached the same conclusion.

WTF/r needed another evasive curiosity target in the form of boa because it cut the cloud of faries. this deck runs cloud of faries. so it's not neccesary for the green creature slot to be an evasive one. also dryad is certainly not a poor curiosity target by any definition.

like i said, it is almost a certainity that you either play a daze, or a force or will, or some creature or standstill the turn after playing the dryad. so with the curiosity, that makes the dryad a 3/3. Agaisnt most every matchup, an attacking 3/3 can't be blocked without your opponent losing a valuable creature. So whether you draw a card or they lose a creature, you gain card advantage. Against those matchups where a 3/3 isn't big enough (madness, the man show etc.) there is little doubt in my mind that the dryad is a far superior option to the river boa any ways.

As for the debate over which is better u/r fish or this, I believe that's entirely determined by your metagame. U/r fish is almost certainly a better matchup against decks like tog, slaver etc. This is a slightly more versatile deck. It's better at fighting off aggro, especially fatty packed aggro decks like Madness and the Man Show. It's kind of a toss up against the 4c control matchup. The u/r mana base is less vulnerable to their wastelands and mana denial, but the dryad allows you to win even if they resolve an angel. I haven't done sufficent testing to say with confident which is greater benefit against 4c control.

i know that you already ruled out a splash. it seems to me though that if you did consider a splash, berserk would be a very strong candidate. it's basically an instant win card as either cranial plating or ravager can easily reach 9-10 toughness turn two or three at the latest.

Thank you very much for the kind comments. I am not surprised that there are similar variants already being played all over.

I would like to add that the more I've tried the quirion dryad, the more it feels like it very much belongs in the deck. I would be very interesting in hearing about any variants that used the dryad. It makes certain otherwise very difficult matchups winnable. I've actually been surprise at just how powerful a threat he is against various aggro decks such the Man Show in the games that I used it. I know that the card seems somewhat scrubby and it's understandable why many people are hesistant to try it, but it's certainly a very viable alternative to the river boa against certain matchups. Indeed, pingers can hurt in the mirror and I understand why call of the herd helps in such instances. But the calls can still be traded with a lone factory or some other creature and the lavamancer which effectively deters you from attacking with it if they have a blocking creature. Your opponent still effectively retains control of the board, atleast until you have the mana to flash it back (and a smart opponent wouldn't let that occur). But with the dryad, even if your opponent has a lavamancer out, it's not difficult to pump the dryad up to a 3/3 before they can untap or get the graveyard needed to activate the lavamancer simply by fizzling a daze (or better yet, stifling a lavamancer) and casting some spell (ancestral recall, time walk, standstill) etc. Once the lavamancer grows to a 3/3, there is little that an opposing fish player can do to prevent you from pumping it up to a very large side and winning the game with it. Unlike the call of the herd however, the dryad doesn't hurt fish's tempo, doesn't require one to play 25 mana sources, doesn't deter it from wasting a land turn two, and doesn't act like a nice juicy mana drain target.

Obviously, there are many situations where river boa is clearly the superior choice (against Mask for example). I've never seen the dryad grown to a 12/12 before turn 7 and a mask would have killed you by then. But Mask is a very easy matchup for fish anyways and is a matchup that fish almost never faces in the current meta.

Against tog, the dryad can't continously chump block like boa, but it can probably absorb enough damage to delay them from going full force by berserking their tog for atleast one more turn. This one turn is often a bigger advantage.

Against 4c control, dryad is one of the few chances you have to be able to race a face up exalted angel. With the numerous better countermagic and swords targets you play (curiosity, standstill, curious faries etc), most 4c control player underestimate how important the dryad is to deal with asap.

I would be very interested to hear what you have to say on the matter Jacob. Have you tested dryad in wtf/r? I suspect you might have been playing too many other green spells in the build (4 boas and 2-3 oxidizes) at the time if you did for dryad to be worthwhile in place of the call of the herds.

I am very interested in trying either a 4 dryad configuration or a 3 dryad/2 boa configuration from now on.

It's not so much about standstill (you can just as easily use brainstorm if you want) as it is about the inconsistencies inherent in wtf/r.

3 casting cost creatures don't go well with wasteland and daze.

25 mana sources don't go well with normal fish's extremely low mana curve (and this deck isn't really that different from normal fish).

and Standstill is just better than brainstorm in any deck synergetic with it IMO. Cloud of Faries is just better as well, and Fairie Conclave is wholly unneccesary for standstill to be playable.