If Mind's Desire was unrestricted, then I wouldn't care in the slightest.  It's not like I love going Tinker -> Jar against decks packing counters and other obviously dangerous scenarios, but without Brainstorm and Ponder around, getting 4UU is a true difficulty (on top of sometimes getting to Desire for 5 and then completely whiffing because there is no bomb).

However, finding decent blue cards to replace it has been the challenge. 

After reading these discussions, I have definitely jumped on the Slaughter Pact bandwagon because I frankly just like the card so much more than Massacre and it only took me a little bit of testing to figure that out.

I think TPS could use Serum Visions in the place of a few of its weaker cards, but I don't know how effective that would be outside of being a 1-of.  I will say this though - I've wanted to cut Mind's Desire and yet still keep my blue card count 18-19 for the longest time and while I currently run an extra artifact bounce spell, I probably wouldn't do that in a bigger tournament.  It's definitely not bad at finding a Duress/FoW or finding either a tutor or a major combo piece to be able to go off with.

I really don't like Extirpate in this format unless your metagame is absolutely overrun by Accumulated Knowledge.  It just doesn't do enough against Ichorid to merit any considerable number of slots, and I've found that most control and Tezz players don't give a hoot if you target their draw spells because they don't like them all that much anyway.  If you feel that you don't need that much Ichorid hate in your sideboard, then I would personally run something entirely different in its place or run Pithing Needle (which is still very relevant against Ichorid and is pretty much the only defensive spell I would ever play against Tezz).  I tend to see this card all over the place in TPS sideboards, and I really think that it's just a "Danger of Cool Things" card that doesn't fit with what the deck is trying to do.

If the Hellkite - Progenitus combo would do 19 guaranteed instead of 18, then I would consider it a lot more.  Having an opponent who plays Vamp Tutor, Thoughtseize, or Ancient Tomb is pretty common and having red isn't uncommon either, but it's not as common as an opponent cracking a fetch in combination with the above.  However, as far as the Sphinx goes, a card that can be Blasted, Oxidized, and bounced by every artifact bounce spell in the format is very bad news.  Edict and Swords suck against Oath, but you don't want to give your opponents any more free outs than you are already giving them with Orchards.

If Swords to Plowshares or Edict actually become a problem, you can always run three maindeck creatures or simply side in an extra body.  It's definitely worth it to side in one card to make four of your opponents' cards useless - it won't stop Jester's Cap from being a problem though.

EDIT: Bad logic.  If you have an Orchard, you can do 19 anyway.  Argh.

Is it really that much of a bread-and-butter card for this deck?  Personally, I'm starting to hate this card in the MD and I don't find to be a very useful SB card either.  There are many matchups where I want another card like Duress, Leyline, or Factory, and I just can't seem to stab myself by cutting multiple blue cards to try to squeeze multiple non-blue cards in.  (Of course, there are cases where FoW sucks, but this is referring to the other cases instead.)

I'm definitely not a pro because I was dumb enough to ask why Portent wasn't being run in Oath decks (and that's because you either need the card now or SDT is better).  But with that said, is Chalice a mandatory piece of the deck, or can a package of cards like additional Duresses, Explosives, and draw spells work in its stead?

Wow.  It has been a long time.  Living so close to Blue Bell, why did I ever stop playing this format?

I have three questions about this deck - although one of them doesn't apply to just this list.

1.  I have been seeing this in most Oath builds consistently all over the place (although not in all of course):

• 1 Ponder
• 0 Portent

Why is Portent seeing absolutely no play?  Maybe the correct question to ask is this: why is Ponder the only one seeing play?  I can imagine that some lists are really tight and all, but it just begs the question of what the deck's role is and whether one or two slots falls under the "Danger of Cool Things" category or not.

2.  Insomniac - Do you worry about Goblins just resolving their Squad and then putting you in an awfully tight spot?  I've been playing  many Thoughtseizes in my deck for a long time (even though I've switched configurations countless times), but without BEB, do you have enough answers to deal with their onslaught?  Do you consider it a threat at this point?

EDIT:  Fire/Ice counts, so that makes some of that second argument moot.

You are right about beating the R/G and Sligh opponents (I don't know what I was thinking when I posted that, I probably wanted to say that it wouldn't be as easy against them), but I'm still not as sold with FCG because my game one is bad and that they also have 3-4 REBs in their sideboard.

But if you see almost no aggro, you don't need the Wonders.  The Bouncers are probably better.

With Deep Analysis and Gush, Frantic Search just doesn't make the cut.

Since I think this is going in the direction of budget, I think I can add a few points to this.

Mana acceleration is absolutely HUGE.  A turn one Null Rod against combo is the best thing you could ever do.  A Mox means that you have accessibility to a turn two Flux, a turn two BtB, a turn two Wurm, a turn two operating Logic...

I would definitely look at Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, and Lotus Petal, and as already suggested, Mana Crypt.  Card disadvantage can be miniscule if your entire deck is working one turn faster.

In terms in Curiosity, that means that you are drawing one extra card since it is generally working one turn faster.  That balances out the card you pitched to get Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox working in the first place.

In terms of Root Maze, you are going to get much more explosive starts, and it's only going to make your Root Maze hurt your tempo game that much less.

Without Wonder, you'll struggle against Food Chains or R/G greatly.  You need to be able to race another aggro deck and without Wonder, it becomes much harder to do that.  Force of Will can't do everything.

Hope this helps out.

On a similar topic to the re-addition of counterspells to the deck, would changing a Counterspell to a Miscalculation be a viable move to make?

I find having five 1U c-spells to be much more productive than having only four since in most cases I need to have good countermagic to start.  I find myself taking fewer mulligans with this around, but it is obviously a horrible counter after a few turns (where it still isn't worthless since I can pitch it or cycle it).

Fact or Fiction doesn't thin your deck though.  This new card literally reverses the effect of running fetchlands by making you thin good answers out of your deck instead of near-useless lands.  

This card should never be played in any control deck that isn't 4CC.  4CC has enough restricted cards to merit the inclusion of this new card.  Landstill, Fish, and Mono-U don't need, or want, a card that costs 3U and thins out good late-game answers when there draws are so meaningful.

Teferi's Response is a great card, but it is extremely situational.  You have to play it when your opponent lets you play it, and more often than not, it's at a bad time.

Honestly, I think that it is acceptable not to run Crypt or Chalice in the sideboard, but in that case, I would definitely want multiple copies of Chain of Vapor instead.  Chain can be a small help against any aggro deck and still gives you something to combat Dragon.

Dragon won't struggle a whole lot against Fish right now.  Most Fish sideboards aren't packing that much for the Dragon matchup either, and it's not because the matchup is favorable.  Fish has to devote slots for stopping FCG, Madness, and most artifact-based decks as well.

Edit - Spelling errors.

I go away for a month and a half and I've missed way too much already.  

Right now, I've been switching my maindeck slots between Suq'Ata Firewalker/Razorfin Hunter and Call of the Herd depending on how many Welders will show up in the metagame.  CotH doesn't seem to be very effective against an artifact-based deck, which is a good chunk of the problem for Fish.

The thing about Sigil of Sleep is that if there isn't a safe target like Suq'Ata on the table, you wind up with a lot of dead cards more often than not since Grim is easy to burn away.  There is always SoFaI to consider as well since a 5/5 Elephant can block anything Madness can throw at you.

I really like how this deck is coming together and I look forward to playing it a lot more.

I suggest that everybody start re-reading other people's posts that have said that Black Lotus is BAD in this deck again.

This topic is still right on track.  It's just that people don't understand why Lotus isn't used in this deck and because of that, they cannot answer the question properly.

Almost every post in this topic has been about whether or not mana stability or tempo is more important.  Your deck is about synergy and Lotus offers no help in that department.  I would like to hear how a deck with only 23 permanent mana sources is getting Faerie Conclave to work at all.

Now wait a second.  Faerie Conclave is a key card in getting Standstill to be as productive as it is.  So by removing lands, you are making Standstill WEAKER by making Conclave much harder for you to use.  I could go on, but I won't.

The fact that we are talking about Standstill so much is making me wonder how many of you actually know what the real card-drawing engine in this deck is.  And Lotus users, it's NOT Standstill.

To answer your question and be fair, Mox > Lotus.

Wonder makes evasion, but other than that, only Arrogant Wurm has any self-evasion.

We do have Stifle for the Deed plan on top of Force, so we are definitely not defenseless against it.

Going anywhere below 4 Curiosity is a "wtf?" play.  Once you start lowering the Curiosity count, you don't draw cards as much and that causes all sorts of problems.

I would much rather cut the 4th Standstill over the 4th Curiosity.

I haven't been running Fire/Ice main only because I have given the slots to Stifle.  However, I am beginning to lean on having one maindeck, but that's something for the metagame to determine.

I never really liked the Conclaves in this deck, and more testing proved this quite quickly.  Without the Conclaves there, I've changed the mana base around.  There is no Yavimaya Coast in there anymore either, but I'm not sure that it is very Brainstorm friendly.  More testing is needed.

Dr. Sylvan:  Without Standstill clogging the works at very important times, everything in this deck has incredible synergy.  Every creature in this deck is a wonderful Curiosity and SoFaI target, unlike Gay Red, mono-U, and U/G Madness which have some creatures with no evasion at all.  

At the same time, we have so much maindeck mana denial that it is scary.  The best part is that we can just keep it coming because of the buttload of draw and search.  We don't need to win games incredibly fast if our opponents can do near nothing to harm us.

Edit:  There is also the possibility of getting a few new cards to test out for this deck, so there is plenty to watch for at this point.

Just like Pern has already said, one Gorilla Shaman is the right number.

However, in my case, the lone Hunter is my fifth Lavamancer.

Even if Lavamancer would have the same exact clock speed, it's still a Wizard.  It doesn't affect how much damage is done but it provides me with the obvious Voidmage synergy which can be so useful.

If I were to cut the Voidmages, I would cut the 4th Lavamancer for another Hunter instantly.

Obviously, they don't do two damage every single turn.  Voidmage has no evasion and Grim does have some costs involved that do change the formulas around.  An attacking Grim doesn't have evasion either, so it that sense, it is a horrible Curiosity target if that's all we will use it for.

However, Grim can do two damage a turn.  It takes Hunter, Hatchling, and Cloud two turns to do that no matter what.  And even if Grim cannot use its ability for some reason, it can still attack for one provided that there are no blockers.

In the case of REB, what happens if we don't need the mana for it?  We can use Grim instead and get in the two damage.  If we use Grim every other turn and attack with him just once when we don't want to use his ability, we have gotten one point of damage closer.

If you can win the game just one turn faster, isn't that worth considering alone?  It is still a matter of playstyle regardless, but it's hard to ignore a card that can have clock potential and synergy at the same time.

After reading a few discussion about Standstill (maybe a lot of discussions might be more appropriate), Brainstorm has come up quite a bit.

I'm not was never thrilled about Standstill in Worse Than Fish, but after more than a year of success in Gay Red and Mono-U, I was not convinced that the card needed to go.

Well, times change and things happen.  Other than some reports by Hi-Val, Jacob Orlove, PTW, Pern, and a few other members about their countless successes (to which I have not had yet), there hasn't been much else.  

While I'm certainly no "innovator", this new list for Worse Than Fish might be a step in the right direction.  I have posted the list here since I do not feel that it is up to par with the other threads, but I would be honored if somebody moved it anyway.

Here is my list:

Creatures ( 14 )
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 River Boa
3 Flying Men
3 Suq' Ata Firewalker

Draw ( 11 )
4 Curiosity
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

I Don't Think So ( 6 )
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle

No Artifacts ( 5 )
3 Null Rod
2 Oxidize

Lands ( 24 )
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Forest
2 Island

Sideboard ( 15 ) (please laugh, it's bad)
3 Drop of Honey
2 Naturalize
2 Magus of the Unseen
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Hidden Guerillas (a card I don't like)
1 Oxidize
1 Sylvan Library
1 Black Vise
1 Stifle

Changes:
-2 Faerie Conclave    +1 Island    +1 Forest
-1 Yavimaya Coast    +1 Wooded Foothills


First off, you will notice that there is NO Standstill in here.  We have Brainstorm in there now.  Just keep that in mind.  Brainstorm is a great engine for this deck since it is extremely versatile compared to Standstill.  Combined with a fetchland, it is even better.

Cloud of Faeries isn't around anymore.  We don't need to carry out the Standstill plan anymore and we don't need to go running into a wall with Chalice either.  Flying Men now consume three of those four slots, and we will discuss the fourth in a second.

Sylvan Library is also a card that we couldn't really use with Standstill around.  This card is the fourth Cloud slot since I don't feel that we need 15 creatures with this buttload of draw/search that we now possess.  Sylvan just adds on to the already dangerous theme of Brainstorm, while being able to give us a ton of cards in certain matchups.

One drawback, though, is that I only have 6 slots for answer cards because I want to utilize Oxidize.  This means that I have to run 2 Stifle, which just doesn't feel right.  Stifle does so much that you should feel somewhat naked by only having two in the deck.


Now, for that re-fixed mana base.  There are now five fetchlands in here, which is what I've wanted.  But, the mana base is not very friendly to turn one plays, so we are almost back at square one.


There is still three Firewalkers in here.  Welders are a major pain and they need to be hosed.  In addition, I get to stop Lavamancer and Hunter dead in their tracks, and that means a harder time playing Standstill and Curiosity for them.

Oxidize is good.  Ties right in with the mana denial theme and snaps any artifact that you want.


Now for that sideboard mess.

Even though Tormod's Crypt has horrible synergy with Null Rod, I feel naked not having it.  One is just too few, and I refuse to give Hulk a surge of cards when they get Tog and many more hard counters than me.

The third Stifle is there for Brainstorm/fetchland and the combo matchups.  I can rip your mana base apart, but if you hit a strong Brainstorm, all my work can be for naught in an awful hurry.

Sylvan Library is just so good in certain matchups that I want more of it.  Gay Red sides out some of their draw, but I side some in.  GREEN draw, might I add.

Well that's it from my end.  Any questions?

Right now, this is my creature base for Gay Red:

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Cloud of Faeries
2 Voidmage Prodigy
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Razorfin Hunter

I have not been impressed by Cloud.  I've decided to change one of them into a Razorfin Hunter.  However, in metagames more dominated by Workshop, I will definitely put in Magus or Heretic somewhere.

I don't feel comfortable removing the Voidmages.  They are so great for me.  I feel the same about Grim Lavamancer.  I don't like the idea of removing creatures that can do two damage a turn for creatures that can only do one a turn when I need to have a reasonable clock.

Thre are a few more creatures to talk about as well.

Magus of the Unseen and Viashino Heretic are just screaming to see play.  They are both great cards against artifacts.  Heretic is a great target for Curiosity, and Magus can force a player to lose to their own fat.

There are so much many options against Stax, BFD, Slaver, and so forth that it comes down to picking the right mix of poisons for the job.

Spiketail Hatchling is a card that Fish should try to run four of it at all feasible.

Manlands don't activate Standstill (which is what I'm sure you mean), but at the very same time, you can't protect them against strips anymore.  It's not worded properly regardless, sorry for the confusion yodoblec.

I'm not running any less than 4 Standstills in my maindeck, but I don't keep them all in for every matchup.  All I am implying is that you should side them out in certain matchups, such as the mirror.  I'm not naming replacements or bashing the card, I'm just telling it as it is.

Standstill is not Ancestral 2-5.  If it was, we would either all play something with or against Standstill or Standstill would be restricted by now.

There is a decent T1 shop right around Reading (where I live), but that might be a little far for you.

There are a few good players and there are plenty of big collectors loaded with power.

They are held in Fairgrounds Square Shopping Mall which is located north of Reading on the 5th Street Highway.

Why didn't you tell me like two weeks ago that you were missing some key cards?  We could have worked something out.

Congrats on your finish, although I know you wanted that Walk.

This deck has so many weapons that adding FoW really wouldn't do much good for you.  Protection?  Nah, just throw the bombs.  

We started with a deck built to utilize Standstill, but we have created a far bigger monster instead in Curiosity.

I have been siding out Standstills for quite a while and I personally don't really understand why people don't side it out in obviously bad situations.

The only strength that Standstill offers is that it gets you the next 3 cards in your deck.

There is a ton of weaknesses though.  

It costs 1U to play and it needs threats already on the table in order for it to be of any use.  So there is a huge investment involved.  

You are not guaranteed the ability to keep the next 3 cards that you get either since your hand size won't always be small enough.  

It is unsynergistic with Stifle, protecting your manlands, and Oxidize.  That means that not only is it bad with your mana denial plan since you can't attack it with as much force, but it also allows your opponent to use their Wastelands against you without much contention.

I could go on and on with this, but in all reality, you are playing a card that has one use and a huge price tag attached.  In a nutshell, playing Standstill makes your deck a manland and 1-2 1/1 flyer(s) (which is 100% ass) until somebody plays a spell.

Edit:  The grammar in this post was horrible.

24-hour clock.

No, I won't be able to make it.  My job is in the way.

Hopefully some other people can make it.

I guess I'll have to hear about how it went on Monday.

Gorilla Shaman is a very useful card in Fish.  Just play with Oxidize in Worse Than Fish for a minute and you will instantly see the results.

Taking away Moxen is good stuff people.  Goblin Vandal is far too slow to do that.

Against Slaver, I would rather have Shaman maindeck.  I want to be all over their mana base right off the bat, not wait until turn 4 to have artifact removal that can, at best, only mirror what Null Rod does.  That is, if I'm still in the game at that point.

I'm still not cutting all of my Voidmages from my build.  I'm just running Shaman in my 15th creature slot from now on (keeping 2 Voidmages).


Running less than 5 fetchlands in Gay Red?  Sacrilege!  

Your argument suggests that Unsummon is a cute trick.  I don't want to waste important and must-be solid SB slots on such tricks, and that's exactly what I was getting at.  

Any Dragon player is good enough to see Stifle coming.  How is Unsummon much different?

Any good Hulk player just walks right through Damping Matrix, Maze of Ith, Swords to Plowshares, etc, when they are ready.  How does Unsummon do any better?

A protected Sigil of Sleep is a never-ending Unsummon.  Why do we need a one-time spell when we can do it over and over again?

With Mana Crypt becoming the new thing, Shaman is a better card overall.  If you can't stop the Moxen and Crypt in Hulk and can't stop them from drawing cards, you get smashed.  Shaman isn't the best of answers but it is a help.  Don't mistake what I said earlier by believing that I implied that Shaman was only for Hulk.

I can also imagine that you would want to be taking away Hulk's Moxen and Crypt as soon as possible, which saw a ton of play as well.

Blue Elemental Blast hurts FCG as well, and FCG is a very tough matchup for Fish.  Having the extra push from Stifle and BEB can make that matchup much more breathable.

REB and Pyroblast are for any opponent that runs blue.  You will want the extra counters.

I don't really see Unsummon being that great though.  I can't see why this card would be better than Tormod's Crypt or Sigil of Sleep (depending on what you plan to use the Unsummon for).  Wouldn't the removal of Crypt be more versatile when you need something for Dragon and Hulk at the same time?  Wouldn't Sigil of Sleep be a more permanent source of removal for the deck just like Maze of Ith?  

Somebody might need to explain this choice to me a little bit.


nataz:  PTW did mention that statement that you made, you are right on the ball.

This does confirm that these 29 cards actually exist.

Why was a card like Spark Elemental ever printed?

Now we finally have a better card than Sleight of Hand too.

And just to top it all off, we have Steelshaper's Gift which literally can read: "Search your deck for target Skullclamp and combo off with Kobolds."

It looks very interesting but I don't see any real Vintage standouts yet.