bla bla bla your deck looks is a tps w. gifts etc bla bla bla

yeye whatever. i still have an opiniion. Bob doesnt belong in this deck. the core is still the same, fast combo win. and what does bob do there? yes it gives a better control matchup, but wait isnt the mathcup already good? why bother improving a good matchup w. dorks? nah, leave bob outta this, bobs place in t1 is in some deck that uses countertop + bob aka fish decks

about my sb cards.

darkblast. is nice as a one off that can be gifted and in some situations kill bigger threats than 2/2s, its reusable, and dredge + will in hand can be fun.

tormods. well, ever since i started playing i had 2-3 tormods in sideboard, grave hate comes in handy in many matchups, the mirror, dragon, some cases oath, slaver, gifts the list can probabaly go on for a while. Even if i want to win fast it doesnt really hurt to bring in some hate if something goes wrong and i might want to disrupt my opponent from winning to fast.

defense grids, well i just like them, you can still cast mainphase gifts and win the next turn or on the same turn depending on gamestate. you basiclly just have 4 fow that you desperatly want to play in opponents mainphase the rest can be played in your own, i think it hurts the opponent more than it does you.

granted my sideboard decisions is more based on what my own current sideboard looks like, and as you already know i dont rely as heavily on gifts as you do so some suggestions might be abit off. can list my current sideboard, perhaps something there inspires you.

SB: 1  Rebuild
SB: 1  Duress
SB: 1  Repeal
SB: 1  Darksteel Colossus
SB: 2  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1  Skeletal Scrying
SB: 1  Fact or Fiction
SB: 2  Defense Grid
SB: 1  Brain Freeze
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Rushing River
SB: 1  Wipe Away
SB: 1  Darkblast

you have to remember that i run 1 maindeck c-wish and dont rely that much on gifts as you do when looking at it. and yeah, i dont run 4 maindeck duresses, i prefer a mind twist over the 4th main, something that probably isnt that good in the us since you seem to be kinda hot on misdirections over there these days, but a deck like this can often get a start with some moxes, a ritual and a twist which can allow a r1 twist for 4-6 cards and since you should have some more buisness spell on hand or have more buisness spells to draw its usually a good position to be in. Or just lategame tutor it up with a fow to back it up to go goldfish mode after that.

---

Well about changing gameplans, ive played the deck for almost 2 years now, i know in which matchup i gotta be aggressive and which to be controllish to win in, usually when i need to be the aggressive i bring in grids so i dont have to bother that much about what countermeasures they have, which means decks i know run atleast 8 instant disrupt spells and relies on drain mana for their win of they get to resolve it hurts my opponent more than it hurts me, i can live without my fows, a slower deck cant vs combo. Or against fish that likes to run cards like stifle, trickbind or other random stuff that i dont want to see in my mainphase.

---

Im not that keen on the 6 fetch config for some reason, never liked it, i can run out of lands to fetch with only 5 fetch so think that problem might occur more often with 6. especially in the kombo mirrors since those games tends take abit longer. prefer a basic land over that, it just be that im so used to playing vs staxx that i really, really,really want as many basics i can. Think this slot is mostly on personal preference, some ppl like an extra fetch some an extra basic.

think i answered most stuff now, kinda tired so might double check later.

okay, im just gonna assume, that comment about a deck being refered to for me, first off i dont get anything outta discussing my deck the only reason i mention it is cuz i dont want just be a random dude making random statements without having some experience with a similiar deck to back it up. And ok, lets make a little longer post for once then. time to list the changes i would like to make to this particualar list. with explanations to the changes aswell. Lets start with dissecting the mana base.

4  Polluted Delta
3  Underground Sea
2  Volcanic Island
2  Flooded Strand
2  Island
1  Tolarian Academy

Like stated I want more basics and from looking at your list you only have 1 maindeck red spell, thats recoup. Meaning you should be able to support that with 5 fetch, 1 red mox, lotus petal and in some cases black lotus / led. If I was to include red in the deck i would build the base something like this:

4 Polluted delta
3 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 flooded strand
1 snow-covered island
2 island
1 swamp
1 tolarian academy

Up to 4 basics which should make you fear those pesky wastelands less and still not having issues with casting that recoup, yes the SB might be effected but im coming to this later on. Snowcovered is there just for the random gifts pile when you really want a basic on the gifts pile and ppl might think you are playing some random gifts deck and adjust their gameplan for that.

Spells in maindeck i dont like:

2  Misdirection
1 Merchant Scroll

Things i want to replace theese with.

1 tinker
1 memory jar
1 rebuild.

Ait, like i said before, 10 disruption spells has been to many for me in the past in a combo deck (even 9, ran 4 duress, 1 twist and 4 fow and that was just on the edge of being to many leading to fuel issues so personally went down to 8). The case i made for rebuild can be read in a previous post so im not gonna qoute that again and as stated by many ppl in thread you seem to be in the need of a 2nd bounce spell. Now to the part were ppl probably will be confused. Yes i would like to put tinker + jar in the maindeck.

First off, i like jar, its the only draw7 i like cuz its more or less a one sided draw7 where the opponent dont really get that much out of it. 7 cards is 3 more that you get with a gifts and its usually for 3 mana less and 1 mana less even if you have to hardcast it, and should provide fuel enuff for a win. Also i miss tinker, like i said, i often myself use tinker as a tutor for lotus with a incoming will or something like that. And like said before, even if you dont win with a jar you can still do random bounce tricks for the opponent which leads to a weaker board posisiton for him even if you pass the turn after jaring. Mostly i really want to put tinker in the deck but only tinker for lotus is not enuff to support that so if you really dislike memory jar insert DSC maindeck for thoose random wins instead.

Lets go to sideboard.

1  Chain of Vapor
3  Red Elemental Blast
2  Pyroclasm
1  Hurkyl's Recall
1  Rebuild
4  Pithing Needle
1  Fire/Ice
2  Empty the Warrens

Hmmm been a long while since i saw so many cards i didnt like in a combo sideboard at once. my rebuild for this thing would probably be in the lines of something like.

1 chain
2 reb
2 masscre
1 hurkyl
2 pithing needle
2 tormods crypt
1 etw
1 DSC
1 darkblast
2 defense grid

With cutting down in the maindeck red sources i think its only reasonable to cut down on the number of red cards in sideboard aswell. 2 reb should be enuff considering you have tutor effects if u need to destroy blue permanents and like said i dont like being at 10 disruption in a deck. Massacre should do what i assume you want pyroclasm to do perhaps even better thought considering that alt casting cost. 1 EtW as alternative wincon should be enuff, its not often you want a wincon on starting hand since its dead b4 you go off anyway aka a mulligan to 6 automatic basiclly. DSC is now in the SB thx to the maindeck tinker now you can pull that beefcake out and take thoose 2-6 random games / tourney a resolved tinker for DSC acctually means even if they got r1 crypt out. Darkblast, im assuming you use the f/i that was there mostly for welder killing or random dorks killing llike bob or other X/1 creatures, well this does that aswell as having good synergies with gifts. and yes it can kill meddling mages or even in some cases even grunts . Personally im switching between dark blast and plague spitter for the random creature matchups depending on what mood im in. Defense grids. These are nice vs all kinda random kontroll makes it a little easier for you to get some breathing room while trying to do your stuff

I think thats what i can think of atm, with these changes you shoudlnt loose speed but improve the manabase, get the 2nd maindeck bounce and you now have 2 alternate wincons post board. Or even perhaps 1 alt wincon maindeck depending what your personal prefered playstyle is.

PEACE!

talking about cutting necro is just retarded, the card is restricted for a reason!

sure you have to pass the turn but if you dont keep a hand with at least a FoW if you think you might need it for a reason and then use that FoW just to counter acctually things that might kill you then you should be safe. like someone said, if you dont like necro its just cuz you probably chicken out and draw to few cards, my own rule about necro while playing combo is to have enuff life left to survive an onboard attack, fetch once and fow once. which means its not that unusal i draw 10-13 cards with it depending on what fuel i have left on my current prenecro hand. So seriously stop talking about cutting necro, its to good. what could be cut down on is misdirections, my experience is that 10 disrupt leaves to little real fuel left in a combo deck.

Been silent enuff for a while now but still following the thread, like stated before i do have alot of experience of playing this kinda TPS gifts kinda deck and some statements in the thread has made me confused. lets start. (yes for you who have seen the decklist i know it looks somewhat different but its just a evolution of a deck that looked very much like the one scott has posted here)

@scott

You claim to have a good matchup vs staxx, i dont really see it, ive played the staxx matchup inf with times thx to the workshop infestion we had here for the last years and with only 1 basic land in the original list i really dont see that being good. I have about 70/80-30/20 in the staxx matchup and thats alot thx to being able to fetch out 5 basics lands from the deck and then rebuilding when i have enuff fuel to win on hand in a well chosen endstep or upkeep. With only 1-2 basic land in my lists i would not have that good of a matchup, especially with only 1 maindeck 1cc bounce that doesnt wipe board.

@random

Whoever said that CotV for 0 is the better play vs this deck. CotV 0 shuts down 9 cards in the deck, CotV for 1 18, now a 3rd of the deck vs a 5th of the deck shutdown due to CotV should make it obvious which number CotV for shuold be set for. Yes you can make the argument that CotV for 0 shuts down 0cc mana acc artifacts, BUT the deck STILL has 4 rituals, Vault, Sol Ring which gives 6 accelerrants for partying, and not having enuff mana is not a issue ive faced so far.

2nd bounce spell.

Why is everyone speaking of hurkyls and from what it seems forgetting that rebuild exists? Rebuild has cycling which doesnt make it  a dead card when you dont have a board to wipe, Many times you want to be able to clear the board in upkeep when wire, staxx effects are on stack to be able to get your mana accelerants back to hand and party with them if you wanna go off. Me personally vs staxx almost as often is i clear the board endstep i clear it upkeep just to get my own mana back in buisness, its pretty often you can hurkyl through a sphere and wire endstep. And on my own part since i do run 3x draw7s (mostly due to fuel issues), rebuild + memory jar is a nice nice thing to do in some matchups, you wipe their board, they get to discard their hand incl what they had on board, and you get down the mana acc again the same round.

One other thing I kinda miss is the tinker in maindeck, yes it might not be as hot if you dont have a jar to tinker for but i think the maindeck tinker ratio is something like 60% for jar 39% for lotus, 1% for spellcount (mox, vault, ring or a crypt), And it allows you to bring in DSC after board, yes, DSC is a bad man but in some random matchups he acctually just wins the games.

Ive been playing a similiar list to this which i playtested with since around april -05, the decklist is somewhere in a tourney report here.

I would suggest for you to cut red from the deck acctually, im not 100% about the meta in us but assuming you have to fight off wastelands in the same degree as here you really dont want to see a volcanic island on your starting hand nor usually fetch one on your first 2-3 rounds. And since decided to go on rituals instead of the drains for mana boost you really want 1-3 basic swamps to fetch so you dont have to rely on the very waste attracting UG seas. The only thing for running red preboard is basiclly recoup for the will, BUT you can still pile up for a will 9 outta 10 times with gifts considering either you have willl, demonic, vampiric or mystical on hand to fetch will. OR you can do the gifts pile for myst, vamp, dem and lotus to still get to rock the will. Ahh right, and try some other bounce besides Chain of vapor since Chalice for 1 already cuts of 17 cards in the deck and to add another card that mix isnt a good idea since you basiclly cant win through a chalice for 1 as the deck looks right now.

So try cutting out red just to really get a rock solid mana base and after a few games i dont think you will miss that maindeck recoup and the cards in the sideboard have other alternatives that can do what you need them to do game 2-3 anyway.

The only reason i see for going over 10 proxies is to make WotC understand that there is a problem with a format were people have to print paper copies to be able to play on a competative level. I rather see some kinda reprint on the more expensive cards. (yes I do think that this can be done without sinking the price on old school alfa / beta / unl power, but thats for another thread)

In GBG we have one Proxy10 tourney every weekend and I have never had a problem playing any specifik deck that I felt I wanted to try out so. But on the other hand I know alot of people with ALOT of spare cards and deck for me to borrow and just fill up the missing slots with proxies so. But I have never heard anyone complaining about 10 proxies being to little either. And we have quite a few players who has access to a more limited cardpool than I do so.

I saw some suggestion on unlimted amount of proxies somewhere in the thread. Why not just start playing Workstation / apprentice instead?

The deck seems to have potential, havent gotten to trying it out myself but just looking through the decklist it makes me wonder a couple of things.

1. What round does this deck usually wiin?

2. Is it really better than a regular TPS that should have more speed mostly thx to the Rituals you seem to be missing?

3. Is it really faster than a regular DrainGifts?

edit: scratching last question, sorry for misremembering, to early for my brain to function

Why not be a Generalistic Specialist?

I mean when can you be classified as just a specialist? Is it just because you only have played one deck to success and that automatically means that someone who has played alot of different decks to a bigger extent should be worse with the deck than the so called specialist? I know many players that can handle basically every tier1 deck right now just as good as someone who is a so called specialist on the specific deck thanks to alot of playtesting with and against every deck. You have to remember that in order to be able to pilot a deck to the top spots of a tournament you have to know your own gameplan as well as the opponents gameplan in every specific match up, and that kinda experience comes from playing both sides or at least you have a better clue how the two different decks should act vs each other.

The few specialists Ive known that have played has just been able to pilot a certain deck to success but when they try and handle another deck they just fizzle but at the same time people who knows how to handle many different decks can take the specialists deck and play just as good with it as the specialist.

"Why are we all speaking at each other instead of to each other?"

Well, jealousy of others success, bad feelings in the past, people dont know how to listen to other peoples arguments and just assumes that people are wrong and they themselves are have made the correct judgment about card / deck X.

Another reason might be this team spirit that I have started to notice from time to time with the american vintage teams. It seems like everytime team X goes public with some deck the ones who starts arguing against the deck its members of team Y, Z and so on. Why this is I dont know. But I guess its the same in every sport were people and teames compete trashtalking is a part of the game.

as long as i dont see TMD Premium Membership im happy

Kinda amusing this discussion about the wasteland killings of dragon, why doesnt anyone mention pithing needle that totally killed the deck? Second the list in the first post can easily go up to 5 basic by cutting the very random underground river. 5 basics + 5 fetches is very good vs a deck thats packing full strip 5 effects.

IF you really are that much for the sacred ground i dont see a bigger problem with cutting (in this list) 1 underground river + 1 island to add 1 tundra and 1 scrubland to get steady access to sacred ground AND perhaps more importantly Abeynce that stops alot of the dragon hate running around out there.

@disburden

i hope that judge argument was a joke. and besides with witness you dont have to recall to death you can just take inf time walks or whatever you feel like.

Ive played dragon since -03 i think and i agree that running any other version than UB is a waste of time. BUT i have some questions.

1. Why caller over witness? The witness can do so much insane stuff thats its not even fun. And it wins the same turn you go into kombo mode.

2. Are stifles really that usefull preboard? I had them in my lists a year ago but they turned out to be fow food 9 outta 10 times so. and the 10th time they werent that amazing either so.

3. Why run vampiric over limdulsvault? The vault usually fetches 2-3 missing kombo pieces instead of just 1.

4. Why just 2 compulsions? I mean, you usually reeeeeally want an discard / carddrawing outlet round 1. Compulsion is worse than BoB sure. But vs fish and other wasteland packing decks they are amazing.

And finally, how do you handle Pithing Needles, normally with hate cards on the board you can just outdraw your opponent with BoB but when they cut of your main carddrawing engine it usually a pain in the a@@ to find the right answer in time. At least thats my experience.

DISCLAIMER: This might be the most boring tournament report you will ever read so continue reading at own risk. You have been warned.

During the 29-31 of july this year the swedish nationals in vintage were held in the town of Gothenburg. During the Friday there was a bye awardning tourney for the real nats on Sunday. Fridays tournament wasnt that exciting for me so I wont bore you with details. The plan for nationals had been that I was gonna play UB Dragon, but when for some reason it seemed like 50% of the players started to hunt for pithing needles during the Saturday so I decided that piloting dragon through a needle filled field wouldnt be the best of ideas, and since just the thought of playing controll makes me wanna find sharp objects and hurt myself I decided to throw together a TPS instead. For the ones of you intrested in decklists here it is.

// Lands
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    1 Swamp
    4 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Tolarian Academy
    2 Island

// Spells
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Tinker
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Necropotence
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Black Lotus
    2 Rebuild
    2 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Mind Twist
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Duress
    1 Timetwister
    1 Time Spiral
    1 Mind's Desire
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Cunning Wish
    1 Time Walk

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Darksteel Colossus
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 2 Rushing River
SB: 1 Fact or Fiction
SB: 2 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Meditate

The second river is nowadays switched for a echoing truth. And DSC in the SB will probably go out at some point. I REALLY HATE HIM! Every good deck can handle him and im sure theres something better to throw in there. There were 54 players during the main event and for thoose of you intrested ill list what I know of the meta:

9 TPS
2 Fish
2 Controll Slaver (1 running erayo instead of drains)
3 Staxx (1 UR, 1 prismatic, 1 Monored w. Serum Powders)
2 Workshop Aggro
2 Dragon
2 Landstill
1 UR Phid

Im not sure what the rest of the 31 people were playing but im pretty sure almost every archetype was represented.

Round 1.

For some reason I been paired against someone that never have or never will play vintage but he has payed for the tournament and since he didnt show up I win the game.

Round 2.

Playing vs UR Phid.

Duell 1.

Keeping a slow hand with force, duress and a wished FoF round 3. Decent enough to keep when the opponent has mulliganed to 5 and im not sure at this point what hes playing so. As planned I get enough fuel to win thanks to the FoF.


Sideboarding: -1 duress -1 TT -1 brainstorm
              +2 Defence Grid +1 Fact or Fiction

Duell 2.

I mulligan to six having a hand with something like land, brainstorm, brainstorm and something more. Play the brainstorm finding Dark Ritual, Necropotence and a FoW. Best brainstorm of the day and round 2 necro does what its supposed to do.

2-0 in duells so far.

Round 3.

Playing vs Controll Slaver piloted by Wollblad. Bad vibes this is the guy who beat me in matchups he was supposed to have autolosses in twice last year and I never managed to beat him in a bigger tourney. And since Controll Slaver should have autoloss vs combo I get a really bad dejavu feeling.

Duell 1.

He mulligans to 5. I think I played a gifts round 2 getting more than enough fuel to win the next round.

Sideboarding: -1 duress -1 TT -1 brainstorm
              +2 Defence Grid +1 Fact or Fiction

Duell 2.

I resolve Defense Grid round 1. He strips my island and thats the last thing he does that game since he didnt seem to wanna draw any more mana sources.

4-0 in duells.

Duell 4.

First TPS mirror for the day. My opponent for this round is a man who is known to be perhaps the luckiest person ever to pilot TPS.

Duell 1.

I should have lost this game. I keep a hand with first round necro but he has the counter. After a few rounds of draw go from both sides the opponent decides its time to start spinning. He plays Time Spiral, TimeTwister, Time Walk, Necropotence going down to 6 life BUT the miracle is that he cant seem to win and passes the turn. Thanks to the draw7´s he has played my hand is. Dark Ritual x2, Tendrils, Lotus Petal, Desiree, Mox, Mox and when the opponent happens to be at six life its game.

Sideboarding: -1 TT, -1 Brainstorm -1 Duress
              +2 Tormods +1 Fact or Fiction

Duell 2.

He goes broken round 1 I think.

Duell 3.

The round starts with only a few minutes left to time so its time to start playing faster. My opponents luck has run out and he gets stuck on 1 mana source despite the fact that he brainstorms twice and I can easily set up for a Yawgmoths Win.

6-1 in Duells.

Round 5.

Paired vs Workshops aggro and we can just draw into the Top8 at this point so no need to play.

Round 6.

Getting paired down once again vs Workshop aggro but since it seems like we both are safe with a draw we take it. My opponent later got pwned by ending up in 9th place missing 1 point from the top8.

Time for the Top8. At this point im happy either way. First time I didnt randomly scrub out in a big tourney, been to close several times during the last year usually just missing with 1 more win for it so. Anything from here on is a bonus for me. The Top8 is made out by the following decks:

5 TPS (There were some variations in the builds though)
1 Workshop Aggro
1 Controll Slaver
1 Landstill (UNPOWERED!)

Quarterfinals.

Playing vs Controll Slaver this time the version that runs Erayo instead of mana drains and not to much hate in the Sideboard so it should be a walk in the park. But then again. Vintage is vintage everything can happen.

Duell 1.

My opponent starts and plays Mox Jet, duress, go. Very confused I start to develop mana. Casting round 2 Gifts getting me Mind Twist and Mystical. Twists his hand and goldfish from there on.

Sideboarding: -1 TT, -1 Duress
                   +1 Hurkyls Recall, +1 Rushing River

Duell 2.

He gets a round 3 activated slaver and with Necropotence in hand and mana to play it theres not much I can do.

Duell 3.

Keeping hand that is a 2nd round kill as long as hes not holding a FoW. His first turn was. Lotus + mox + mox + thirst + tinker for platz + chalice for 0. Hes sitting with 1 card left in hand so I continue to “kill� him with alot of rituals, will, demonic and a tendrils for 22 and putting a Hurkyls on top hoping he doesnt have the answer. He doesnt and I make it through to the Semis.

8-2 in Duells.

Semifinals.

Second TPS mirror for the day this time vs drain version of the deck piloted by the guy who put GothSlaver on the vintage map.

Duell 1.

We both mulligan to 6. I get round 1 Ancestral to compensate and round 3 Bargain with FoW backup.

Sideboarding: -1 TT, -1 Brainstorm -1 Duress
              +2 Tormods +1 Fact or Fiction

Duell 2.

Both starts with round 1 brainstorms but I follow up with round 2 Bargain with FoW backup.

10-2 in duells.

Finals.

Nice finals the problem is that I hadent slept last night and was on my 36th hour without sleep, and my 24th hour without food so my brain isnt following me as it should anymore at this point but hey, everything above the Top8 was a bonus anyway so.

Third TPS mirror of the day piloted by an old timer that have been playing for far more years than I have (at least on a competetive level of vintage).

Duell 1.

Im going first and my starting hand was one of the best of the day. Mox, Mana Vault, UG Sea, Black Lotus, Necropotence, Yawgmoths Bargain. But like I said my brain isnt with me so I go for Round 1 Bargain, he has the FoW but nothing really to follow up with so I get the ritual for Necro a round later.

Sideboarding: -1 TT, -1 Brainstorm -1 Duress
              +2 Tormods +1 Fact or Fiction

Duell 2.

His time to get Round 2 Bargain.

Duell 3.

My starting hand is Bargain round 2-3 IF i draw 1 more mana source of the brainstorm I have. Unfortunattly the brainstorm gives me 3 cards I cant use at this point. I dont even a FoW so my opponent gets the oppertunity to Goldfish for 3 rounds. The problem is that he seems to draw worse than me. And by the point that he even finds a TT I finally found some fuell and got the FoW. Round 6 the Bargain comes. -16 life later and a bunch of spells later its over.

Total trackrecord of the day. 12-2 in duells (14-2 if you count the no show opponent I got round 1)

I did recive the byes for gencon but since a trip to america costs about 2000$ from sweden and I didnt have the money I decided to stay at home instead. I might show up next year if I have the cash and still am wasting my time on this game.

The event in itself is probably the best Magic event I will be or have been attending to this year. And I hope it will come back next year, although romuors says that it wont.

Well I hope you got anything out of reading this.

Respects out to: Everyone who is nice enough to make it possible for me to play without owning a single card myself, A-Laget, The organizer who took a risk for arranging this on a new convention. Everyone in GBG that deserves it.

Peace out.

// dexter af delüxe

@xrobx

thx for quoting a chosen part, next try though i just want you to test to quote the whole sentence....

@smennen

at the part about personal attacks, i just feel like if you should write an article aboust something you should be a good example, and follow the example, not contradict yourself.

I just gotta say this,

i found it amusing that smennen actually wrote a few things like:

"We have no Mike Longs, no offensive or rude players, no outbursts or acts of violence."

"Vintage is the gentlemen's format."

The only time i had the pleasure of seeing Mr smennen actually play vintage is through a video from some event were he played SSX. And the behavior he showed on that video is behavior that would have gotten him DQ:d for unsportmanship conduct at any given PT.

Are these statements really necessary to make a point? I think not. I would ask that subsequent posters ignore these comments. Verbal warning. -Hyperion

With that said, i agree with some parts like proxy tourneys. But the part about not needing cards designed for vintage i think is wrong, cuz lets face it, vintage has been around since the birth of magic, and im sure that at least 99% of the broken cards has been found so what can be done with the current cardpool is limited, new cards for vintage might actually enable new decks but that might just be my opinion. Just look at what the mirrodin block did for vintage.

@monk

First off i know how the witness win works, and when you have to learn how to play it its acctually not that complex (especially with the ancestral way its the infinte time walks that can be a bit tricky in the before you learn it properly). I know the pros and cons with witness vs caller i had the caller in my lists for a long time until i tried witness out and found it can wins over situations that are common that caller or ambassador cant win through as easy (platinum angel, blessning, more bizzare situations like vs kombo that has resovled necro and has will on hand and so on) so i know the difference. Now lets take a look at your examples.

"a Lava Dart ( 1 more animate spell is needed )"

Okay if this situation will not accur in a UB version of dragon unless the player you are facing have done some serious mistakes during sideboarding and then you should be glad he acctually has dead cards in the deck against you. And besides i acctually dont see what this stops, if you are afraid that you will get pwned by a lavadart then just bring up the extra animation spell during the first time of the loop.

"an E Plague naming human or shaman ( random bouncespell needed )"'

When did you acctually see this card being played in t1 the last time? Besides in this case you probably can win with laquatus anyway so lets move on.

"CotV with 1 counter ( same )"

CotV with 1 counter stops laquatus how? CotV with 1 counter stops infinite time walks how? If someone plays CotV for 1 im just glad, means they have shut down more cards in their deck than in my dragon anyway.

"True Believer (same)"

Stops infinite timewalks how? And besides same as with EP when did you see this get played in a good t1 tourney last time anyway?

"Root Maze (same)"

Ok, this is the one time caller is better than witness or laquatus.

"Meddling Mage put by Ather Vial"

And what should the meddling mage name? Name ancestral and you only take inf time walks, name time walk and you ancestral him to death.

And for the last thing, i see witness as an SECONDARY wincon, 9 outta 10 games you just win with laquatus anway so it doesnt matter if you have blue mana or not thoose games, besides the mana base in dragon should support enough basics for you to survive blood moon anyway. As for strip, he has 1 strip mine i have 4 fetch and 2-3 basic islands. And as someone once said if the waste / strip your mana lands instead of bazaar your probably gonna win anyway.

Now ive been enough offtopic on this thread so i wont discuss dragon anymore here, but feel free to start an discussion somewhere else of which is better caller of witness and i might join in there.

@maxxmatt

Speaking from my own experience with dragon (played / playtested it for over 2 years now), it seems like some of the cards he include are basiclly dead before going off and dragon already suffers from a good amount of dead cards and should already win against most of the random decks game1 and bring in answers for whatever they might bring in game 2 and 3 instead. Thats why i dont understand adding more of thoose to the deck. As far as running caller over witness there is accutally nothing to say that can convince me that the caller is better in anyway unless you a are a fan of winning one round later in the game. You might have an opinion that the dragon list that won acctually is good but to me its just looks like he took the base of a good deck and made it slightly worse at least from my point of view.

And as far "The crew of the entire Europe played at the event." thats just bullsh*t. I know many very competent players that didnt show up for the very simple reason that the trip was about 450$ which is way more than most not to wealthy students / unemployed / regular people can afford.

p.s Gz to the dragon player even though the decklist to seems random its still a dragon deck

@ all you people who are complaining about the quality of this top 8 (especially you americans)

I realize this t8 has some random lists in it, but look at last waterbury from america, fish taking first place (the deck has been dead, fried up and eaten a loooooong time ago), a UG madness that shouldnt been a t1 deck in the first place and i can go making remarks about your nice "perfect" americans t8 looking back for a few years. So dont judge the "europeen" meta over this single tournament. It still was in france a pretty expensive trip for most people not living in the nearby region.

@toad

he might be a good dragon player but it doesnt explain the odd choices in the deck, for example only 6 animation spells, the random maindeck chain of vapor, 2 river 3 seas instead of 4 seas, the caller over witness as secondary wincon, the single deep anal. If i can get an explanaition of thoose very odd choices then i might bellive he didnt have a good amount of luck. Cuz the way the deck looks it seems to be suboptimal at best. The lack of full 4 compulsion might be explained with that people there didnt seems to been aware of wastelands.

dragon is still a very good deck, it draws are very consistent and if you learn how to play it correctly its not a bigger problem playing around the hate. Although this dragon player obviously had alot of luck its acctually one of the more random lists ive seen in a looooooong time, just take the example with 2 ug rivers and only 3 ug seas.

so what won? who played it? and most importent were did the swedes end up in the end?

No update on r7?

@ toad

since i havent bothered to try to get accesses to "pimp" t1 forum il just ask you here about what i saw there.

You say trinisphere is fun, but in the same time you claim that you HATE xantid swarm because you cant counter anything your opponent does. Can you please explain that logic to me, both cards says "HA you cant play spells even if you want!"

Please help me understand your logic

@Smmenen

Seriously, i dont know what you been smoking that have made you lose your memory? Im sorry smennen, but honestly your armageddon, judgement day prophecys are starting to bugg me. Ever since trinisphere became restricted all i have seen you write is "the end is near combo will rule, ftk will be the norm etc etc bla bla yada yada". There acctually existed magic before darksteel, and from what i can remember from then it acctually werent any retarded FTK kombos, and from what i have seen there havent come any insane combolicous cards in Kami block or fifth dawn. The only decks right now that should be considered "dangerously fast" are Belcher, meandeck tendrils and to some extent dragon. At least dragon and belcher are very easy to stop.

Dragon dies to every hate in the enviroment.

Belcher is getting completly pwned by null or fow.

I wont say anything about meandeck tendrils since i acctually havent bother to test it, first impression says "CotV for 1 GG" so im not really afraid of that either.

So smennen can you acctually point out what makes you think that combo will be so godly now with trinisphere gone or are you just bitter that the DCI didnt take your advice and restricted welder?

WHY is it that everyone seems to fear that combo will take over the world with trinisphere gone from vintage? Combo wasnt dominating between Okt 2003 - > June 2004 when trinisphere wasnt legal in vintage. Chalice came and hoosed long.dec WotC just overkilled long which was already dead when CotV became legal.

@ smennen

About Gothslaver. GS in generall will be weaker when trinisphere isnt a 4-off in every deck with workshops. GS works best in a meta with alot of MWS decks and has a good matchup against most of thoose decks since it can run welders of its own and have solid counter backup for them. With trinisphere gone people will start playing more aggro decks, fish etc and less of the workshop aggro and staxx that we have seen during the last year. So your fears about GS becoming so good, uberbroken etc etc whatever will not come true. GS dies and rolles over against all GOOD kombo decks that run disruption of its own and if you add the fact that it has serious problems against any random aggro deck with null rods the deck will not be a good option after trinsphere is gone.

@ toad

First of all why are all your examples ive seen god hands , for example;

mox + orchard + oath?
Ritual, mox, mox , ritual , desiree?

Im pretty sure that its always you who have told me not to discuss god draws from a deck when i have been involved in a disscusion with you. And i think i have seen you use the argument "broken things are a part of vintage" many times. So now its ok to whine about "god" draws and the brokeness when trinisphere is gone?

Just wanna end this post with again thanking WotC for making a very wise decision.

FINALLY!

The day i waited for over a year has finally come, trinisphere got the so welldeseved axe. No more will i need to suffer against the random kid who has borrowed his deck randomly FTKíng me with Workshop + Trinisphere.


Thanks WotC for doing the right thing.

@moxlotus

Tog gets killed by staxx , thats a fact, thats why why everybody stopped playing tog here. The last tog list ran up to 6-7 basics and still got crushed, the matchup is to bad no matter who you twist and turn it.

TPS has a better chance due to all maindeck hate (the lists circulating here have 3-4 maindeck rebuild, and some extra hurkyls in the sideboard) but still EVEN with all that hate in maindeck and all basics TPS matchup against UR staxx still is in the favor of the staxx player since staxx has so many antikombo cards, Prismatic staxx on the other side gets runower by TPS from what ive heard through romours.

To answer what we play then:

TPS, Staxx, C-Slaver, Oath

The only deck i played lately that i feel have a good matchup against staxx is dragon and that was just because my decklist had 4 esg i maindeck so no matter what lock (except chalice for 2 AND 3) the esg just went under the trinisphere and won that matchup X times.

Trust me, we tried every answer to staxx and the deck still rules all the major tuornaments were the staxx players show up, i know several players who has stopped playing t1 just because trinisphere. Trinisphere + Workshop is a combo that u can play R1 about 40% of the time and if it resolves its a FTK 9 outta 10 games if you had a normal hand for staxx.

And for you who whines about staxx being inconsistent. I played staxx alot the last year, some tournaments and some random game testing etc and the deck is right now one of the most consistent decks around, right next to dragon.

@cartahain

okay, so you miss your landdrop but let me ask, if Lotus Vale didnt have its drawback wouldnt you rather drop a lotus vale r1 instead of a island?