seems like a typo of some kind. 35 tix entry fee cannot be correct, considering the booster price of 7 a pack.
i assume it will be 45

i have no clue and think it was a HUGE mistake not to include it, given the perfect opportunity they had with VM.

they might have some reason, like keeping the TE flashback drafts firing, milking grinders with some upcoming MOCS Prms or whatever.

personally, i hate the decision and the fact that a Vintage staple UNC maintains a huge price tag/ will rise even more.

at this point, i am almost certain that those cards will be in.

the amount of rares and mythics they squeeze into the set is huge and it seems they just put in everything of relevance.

at this point i am curious on which rarity they will reprint Wasteland^^

do TV series count to? no? i dont care

i recently grinded through "Orange is the new Black" and that was about one of the best things i ever watched

oh and yes, the Hobbit 2 pretty much sucked

some more pros on playing online with virtual cards:

-no farkin shuffling it up and lets be honest, with all the tutors and fetchlands you do shuffle a bazillion times in Vintage

-beside the fact that you have to invest into your stuff again (this only occurs if you do own the stuff in RL) you may get your investments back by playing in some Daily events on a regular basis

-managing your collection and decks becomes a lot easier

-you will be able to test and compete at a pretty good level whenever you find time




"But dude...whats up with my collection once MTGO shuts down and noone plays that game anymore?" yeah! its almost as likely as RL Magic not seeing any more play and Hasbro decides to get rid of it. than your RL cards (which as a matter of fact do only have some value because some guys agree that hard paper and cardboard with some ink on it deserves a certain amaount of cash-comparable to digital objects to some point) will be worthless as well. both very unlikely, as MTGO is Wizards cash cow. they might try to ruin things a bt with crappy new clients and dumb chnages here and there, but that wont stop MTGO.

finally!

as RL Vintage is pretty much dead over here, i am looking forward to play some competitive matches whenever i find some spare time on my laptop onc they release this.

comparing those to RL prices, yes, they come cheap.

however, lots of Vintage staples have seen some price increase during the last month. be it normal version or the foil one.
(to those who didnt know: yes, online you can play with Foil FoW, Foil Workshop, Foil Duals ect)
so to sum it up:
i would be quick about obtaining stuff you really need

some years ago (like 8, feels like yesaterday) i used to play Vintage whenever i had the chance to. that beeing said, the chances to play with those cards got smaller and smaller in the playgroup and area i live in. (germany, that is)
at some point i sold all my Alpha/Beta Power and even the rest of the high valuables and stopped playing it at all.

when Power 9 will be released online, i will slowly crawl back into the format, i suppose an so will my old Vintage mates, who dont even own an account now.
there are like no regular Vintage tournaments around here, so this will be a welcome opportunity for us to gunsling.
some of my mates might even sell some expensive RL cards to buy into Vintage online.

FoWs price is kinda high, i have to admit, but making it accessible in huge numbers because of its current price doesnt actually seem to be too appealing. you know, there are plenty of guys who have spend mayor bucks on those and i dislike the fact to ruin those guys investments.
of course i understand the wish lower the price, but imo the best way to do this is to slowly and carefully provide ME1 drafts/sealeds. wont cause a mayor decrease in price, but might secure some fair price evolution.

that beeing said, people seem to forget that investing into digital object doenst equal throwing money out of the window.
cards can be sold/traded. even with profit if u are patient and smart.
so getting back your investment should be no problem at all, heck i would even argue that it is even easier to move cards online than in RL. and u skip the transaction costs like ebay fees, postal costs ect.


last but not least, FoW is expensive. i hear you.
at the same time, other Vintage staples are really, really cheap compared to the RL prices. Bazaar for 10 a piece, Shop at 22ish you name it.
yeah, investing into digital objects seems weird at first. however, ask someone not familiar with MTG at all about investing into  real cards and you will earn the same raised eyebrows.

thx for the detailed report and the decklists.

the vids dont seem to work. unfortunately. (most of them get stuck after around 2 minutes)
any chance to upload them on youtube?

thx in advance

i am about to throw such a pile togehter as well and maybe it is wort testing, whether or not 2-3 Erayos and some Reapeal/Remands might fit in as well.

bouncing a Mox or Chalice during upkeep helps generating spells a turn (as do Remand and Repeal, which might be used on your own cards if needed or to bounce/counter opponents threads) to flip the Erayo fast and even without many cards in hand.

in additon Repeal and Remand are good with Ethersworn Canonist too.

a flipped Erayo togehter with an Ethersworn Canonist locks down the opponent big time.

just a few thoughts.

thats what i was guessing, thanks for the clarification.

that Esperzoa seems pretty solid. no more, no less.

is it possible to kinda do the "Senseis D. Top" trick with the Esperzoa, that you can do with an active welder?

                                                                                                                                         

i have to agree, but if the meta has just so many aggro decks running around that the list almost seems to need StP and Bolts, why not change the deck to smtg like oath? 


Chalice issue:
what i like most about adding Chalice (in a more controlish/comboish meta, thought) to the maindeck is that you get another nasty proactive thread you may lay down fast and which just slows the opponent a lot or if Chalice is set @ 1 or 2 shuts them off as hell in between Canonist and Teeg.


lets assume you are on the play with a nice hand and start your play with Land, Vial and Chalice @ 0. this improves your matchups against decks packing Moxen/Lotus and the like a lot, giving you the speed advantage to beat and add other lock pieces to the board.
without Chalice i would still fear broken turn one plays on the other side of the table.

with Shushers you can easily play additional Chalices you draw @1 or @2 as well and still be able to cast your spells even if Vial gets removed somehow.


Thorn of the Amethyst is a lot slower. even if you are able to get it in turn one via Mox acceleration, you miss another important turn one drop instead (like Vial or a Critter).

i really like the deck a lot and while brainstorming the lists, some questions arose.

a)Chalice seems to fit in quite well (may it be sideboard or even maindeck). ideally you may drop Chalice @ 0 fist turn(s) and later on, once you have a vial or Shusher out, you might even set it @ 1or 2, depending on the opponents deck.

b)with skullclamps trading own creatures against opposing Goyfs or whatever  on the ground seems like a good choice for this deck. so generally smaller damage dealing creatures should not be that much of a problem in between swords and an assault of your own beaters equipped with a clmap.
utility creatures you must get rid of asap like welders or confidants can be answered by a timely fanatic or (again) swords.

this leads me to the question: are the lightning bolts really needed as creature removal? are they worth the slot for the last burn damage? i really think that lightning bolt is a good card but its not 100% needed here.

Gargamel ftw!

that trick seems to be more secret than i guessed. (i have met a lot decent players in our vintage scene that were not used to it and it took me some time to convince them that it works)

put the draw ability of the top on the stack. activate the welder to exchange the top (still in play) with some artifact from the grave. result is a top in the yard, robot in play and you have +1 card.

i dont see the new wording preventing this.

but with SP it is?

i was pointing out that just for digging there are other cards around as well. (not that they are needed)

my second point was, that filling the yard intentionally with cards like SP seems like wantig to win even bigger.

the same question araised in me when i evaluated the uses of the card. in CS the card does 2 things: dig deep and look for buisiness and (not unimportant) put a robot in the yard if needed.

in the given deck you can use Impulse or Telling Time  for digging as well. Filling up the yard for a Will seems like overkill.  a resolved Will is GG most of the time anyway.

Triskelion
Sundering Titan
Mindslaver

point accepted

beside his colour, Wake Trasher doesnt seem too impressive. you have enough beats and the Tarmogoyfs should be big enough  after a few rounds.

beside the 2 stifles, why should you not tap out? as an aggressive aggro control deck with proactive disruption in form of Duress effects there seems to be no reason not to tap out if needed. Daze and Forces dont require open mana.

there is a reason mana denial decks like fish do pack some Null Rods and i would suggest to include them here as well. in vintage "land destruction" is a wrong term, as it should read "mana destruction".  vintage decks play some restricted artifacts that cost 0 here and there, so it is wise to lock that source of mana as well (not to speak about other things a Null Rod does for you).

well, no feedback might be either a good sign or a bad one.
i thought that some 3CC or Keeper interested players would show up and congrats me on my build

i would go B/G  instead of B/R too. Crucible waste/strip lock is essential and an auto inclusion. I would throw in some Null Rods to cut off artifact mana and if you are going with green even give Root Maze a chance.

i was playing with my UWB piranhas lately http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35922.0, noticing that instead of swarming my opponent, i was more often forced into control mode and waiting for the right moment to attack, most of the time after disrupting the opponents mana base and/or hand.

a lot of times i found myself playing a Dimir, removing possible blockers and protect the thief for the win. so i listened to myself arguing "Pomaxx, if you are so one-dimensional and play it out that way, no matter what, why not adjust the deck? you rarely play a Grunt anyway, why not replace some cards?Remember 3 CC?"
the flexible brain i am, i did just that, keeping in mind what i want to keep and what to exchange.
basically i took the more controlish route and replaced some creatures (Katakis, Grunts, Mindcensors) with counters, control elements (Crucible) and minor draw (Skeletal Scrying and FoF).


//Mana
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

//Creatures
3 Cutpurses
2 Exalted


//Stuff
4 FoW
2 Mana Leak
2 Mana Drain
2 Daze
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Echoing Truth
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Will
1 Crucible
1 Vindicate
3 StP
3 Null Rod
1 Balance
1 Extirpate
1 Sekletal Scrying
1 Fact or Fiction



i found myself lacking double blue early quite often, especially when wastelands destroy a tundra or sea during the first turns. Mana Leaks helped to fix this problem. With the Null Rods and my own waste/strip supplements the Leaks act as a hardcounter during midgame most of the time. The Dazes i just tried out but after a few test runs they please me quite well with the overall mana denial theme of the deck. At worst they pitch to a Force later on. Having 3 different type of countermagic beside the untouchable FoW makes the counter base less vulnerable to Extirpates as well, which might be of minor importance, but still helps.
I wish i could support another Scying, but right now i dont know what to take out for that.

for the sideboard:
right now i included 12 cards, leaving three slots open. suggestions are welcome

3 Orims Chant
3 Kataki
2 Massacre
1 Moat
2 Extirpate
1 Sword

well, in the workshop macthup its pretty obvious, that Null Rod is great, Kataki is maybe even better and both together are just awesome. so lets leave this matchup out. i think there will always be some workshop decks (be it 9sphere or anything else) around and Kataki improves game one a lot, which is why i think Kataki deserves a slot.

instead i will try to get back at the argument, that against other decks the combo isnt that great.
we must develop some concrete game states to discuss the usefulness or the two given cards in different matchups.

as an example, against Combo the two cards might be to slow to help enough anyway, but if Rod gets to stick, shutting of their artifact mana, thats good. now dropping Kataki  afterwards is better, as they have to pay upkeep for the gems on table, which with a low land count will become harder.
if Kataki hits play first, that not as good as having Rod in play already, but even that may help a little, if they dont go off right at you and if you are able to make them  tie up some mana during upkeep thats buying you time. you are playing Stifle, Daze and FoW too, so at least some cards to defend the fish player against instant dead.



the upkeep of one colorless mana for your own Rod i am definately willing to pay in most matchups, especially with your UW build. if both cards get into play, it should be turn 2-3 already and maybe its even later, as you dont have to play Kataki asap if the game state doesnt call for it. say you dont hurt the opponent at all (unlikely imo) but have to pay one colorless, your mana base and the overall CC of your critters and spells should  allow you to do so without too much problems.
Kataki beats in for 2 and thats what i love about it. its not like a Rod, that does its thing but doesnt improve your clock actively (it may do so by hindering the opponent, thought). if Kataki isnt the ideal play early on, just wait and play another card.
 with all the Stifle, Wastelands and Dazes i still think its an idealaddition to the UW build.

i would cheer in joy if my opponent sacs his artifacts...and i would do the same if he pays upkeep for them
seriously, its a good thing to be the UW mini stacks and spit out creatures at the same time.
 without Kataki  the opponent may wait and bounce the Rod finally to use ingame artifacts, which is much harder with Kataki in play, as he has to decide wheter to sac or pay upkeep.
if there are no artifacts around, such is life and maybe you dont wanna play Kataki but another critter instead.

I put together some sideboard, assuming the Meta will consist of some CS, Ichorid, Fish/Aggro, Shop and  Combo.

2x Massacre (against UW fish builds)
1x Kataki (after boarding i want to see Kataki in the Shop matchups asap and raising the count to 3 helps a lot)
1x Hurkyls Recall (again a card improving the Shop matchup)
3x Orims Chant (C-C-Combo pawnage)
3x Extirpate (obviously)
1x Exalted (coming in against Aggro)
1x Moat (with 2 maindeck tutors its possible to get it even as a singleton and this should add some headache to the other Aggro deck)
3x Spell Snare (against CS, maybe Oath or other Drain related Control decks)



edit: replaced some cards

well, i dont reinvent the wheel and its likely some SS or other UWB fish builds decks look similar to mine.

after some testing i found 3 Jotun Grunts just one too much. Extirpate as a singleton is great, but random and i will cut it off to play 3-4 in the sideboard. Exalted i often tutored for game one against aggro or whenever i needed to have a huge evasive creature. without its morp ability he would be too clunky here and there, but the lone flyer won me some matches all by herself.

the repeal issue i was wrong about, so i replace one with Echoing Truth.
the mana leaks proved to be great. with the mana denial its a hard counter most of the time and even with the weaker mana base of my 3 colour wasteland supported build the CC isnt much of a problem.

the single free slot i try to test  Balance in now.



//Mana
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

//Creatures
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kataki
3 Cutpurses
1 Exalted


//Stuff
4 FoW
4 StP
3 Null Rod
3 Mana Leak
3 Duress
1 Repeal
1 Echoing Truth
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Vindicate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Balance

english isnt my mother tongue (i am german) and while trying to argue in another language, i feel like trading my stradivari for a trumpet. i will try to answer the discussed point nevertheless.

to sum it up: i am not advokating to play a 3 colour fish build or anything different over the UW fish list posted here. imo each deck (regardless of its strenght based on your playing skills/deck power/meta) should fit your playing style. while there are players around showing perfect adaption to each and every archetyp, some players (like myself) tend to play decks in a special way. different fish builds, while looking comparable at the first glance and sharing some important similarities, may end up more controlish or aggressive. this is caused by the different builds and personal playing style. the UW fish list looks more straight forward to me,  spitting out threads fast and trying to race the opponent via laying down more threads and disrupt the mana base and countering key spells.
the deck seems pretty strong in achieving this. i do prefer some more controlish builds with annoying utility creatures (Mindcensor, Kataki...may include Dimir here as well), thought. i sacrifice (speed) to get something, as it fits my playing style better.
i no way i want to sound like a defender of another build, but as a long standstill and fish player i just feel some minor tweaks could be done.



sure.
i dont play one drops dogs and cats, but other spells in the one mana slot (read: duress as a proactive control element and swords as a reactive element to handle fast creatures), so its not like: oh, no mox around, no spell first turn. its more like one mana critter versus duress/thoughtseize or swords.


i dont fully agree about this. Null Rod shuts off artifacts in play, while Kataki may get rid of them or at worst ties up mana to keep artifacts around. lets not overlook the scenario where Null Rod and Kataki stick on the board together. its a nice tag team and Kataki often makes the opponent sacrifice a Mox or a Senseis Top to be able to continue to use its mana to deal with you.
this means, with Kataki around your opponent has to worry about his in play artifacts and this cuts him off the ability to just wait and maybe finally bounce the Rod and go all crazy. its a rare scenario maybe, but the matchups its great against i dont wanna miss Rod together with Kataki. ( 4 Null Rod is pretty much....)
Workshop decks are seeing a comeback and Kataki is a huge mainboard answer that improves match one a lot for...uhm...not much in return.
Chalice @1 and Chalice @2 are not the things you want so see around, but if it is 2 colour or 3 colour fish doesnt make that much of i difference here, as both get screwed if you are unable to counter the Chalice. (i do play Dimirs, Avens, Vindicate and Repeal, so still some non- dead spells around )


that matches my expiriences pretty well. especially in game one, if you dont know what you are up against, it usually wasnt the first guy to walk into the battlefield, but with some sharp guessing he is pretty savage. i had a love/hate relationship and cutted them at some time all together, but as i already said, i wont say that the should get the axe. decreasing the number to three would be a good call imo, as you will see them a little rarer and thus tend to cast them rarer as well, resulting in more chances to make the right assumptions which card to name would be best.
Meddling Mage has rarely been a card i liked to see in my opening hand game one.

for me its similar to the Meddling Mage issue: standstill and MM are best, if specific conditions occur. for MM that means you know what you are up against and for standtstill (in THIS deck, not in a Standstill deck) it means that you have a bigger thread turned leftwards each attack step than your opponent does.  Standstill is used as kinda draw engine  here, which is very good in the given build and i think with Ninjas, Mishras, Dogs and Cats its a great supplement. again i think cutting one could be a good choice.

@Jeff

my intention was to suggest them to you as a sideboard card.
you are right about the two drop creatures and your version is way more aggressive than mine. i dont play one drop creatures, as my plan A usually looks like: do i have a mox and a land= two drop (Null Rod if possible) or Duress/ Swords if needed. our builds are different and maybe you are right and Kataki doesnt deserve a maindeck slot. however, you should try (if you didnt until now) it out.
(i like them in my maindeck as well and would play an additional one sideboard against workshop decks)
personally i broke with Meddling Mages and would maybe cut them completely (but its rather subjective).
so if you ask me how to fit in 2 Katakis maindeck i would answer: cut one Meddling Mage and one standstill (isnt 4 just overkill? i mean its a great card, but you are playing fish, not standstill and most of the time you want to play a creature before laying down a standstill, dont you? sure, you have 4 Mishras, but its kinda risky to play standstill without a serious clock, isnt it?). this way you dont change the two drop ratio