That's kind of the point of it. It allows more people to come to the tourney (if they are missing those last 2-3 cards, etc. over the 5 proxies), but still will eventually ween a lot of them off it entirely. Even with $4 more in the entry fee, it is still a lot cheaper than some tourneys, especially in New England (where $25 is common).

Just some random thoughts on things posed in the thread:

Masticore vs. Angel

This is a tricky decision, but I think that the Angel is sturdier. Masticore can knock out Welders, but Welders can also fairly easily knock Masticores out. The 4/5 body and flying on the Angel is also nice (the life gain being an added perk). I would at least test this out against some Workshop and maybe FCG or other aggro.

Counterspell vs. Mana Drain

Drain is just so good. It lets you play out your combo (Salvagers), while being able to keep open mana for protection (FoW, another Drain, etc.). It can make the combo inevitable.

Sensei's Divining Top

A less good Brainstorm, and a less good Impulse. Yes, it is reusable, but 7 Brainstorm/Impulse seems to be enough as is. While it does let you draw, it stops you from drawing more cards as it dumps itself on top of your library. It completely ruins the decks draw spells and topdecks.

~MindFlayerMagi

Well, if anything, the mana from Drains would help power out an earlier Salvagers, but I don't know how essential that is, as the deck already plays enough control as slow combo.*

I was your round 6 opponent. Colossus is a bitch, as my deck doesn't have any way of working with it (besides dumping a boat load of regeneraters and chump blocking it forever). Tinker/Colossus is one of the best alternate win conditions in a while.

My main screw-over in the matchup is that I'm R/G. With no countermagic, there isn't much I can do (especially lacking good sideboarding for Combo). As shown in game two, even a first turn Null Rod can be worked around.

Nice finish. I ended up going 2-4. It was a good tourney.

~MindFlayerMagi

* Jason was discussing that he might be changing it from a flat 5-proxy to a 5 proxy for $13 and $1 per proxy thereafter. It then makes it possible to run Drains. I would at least test it out a bit.

Hey. Not a bad finish, and a great report. I ended up going exactly the opposite, 2-4. I was your round 5 opponent. It was absolutely crazy how much 4cC there was there. Half of my matches were against it!

Anyway, props for the report and the win. You had some great hands for the R/G match, which helps. Countermagic is key to keep stuff like Blood Moon and Trolls off the table.

~MindFlayerMagi

Sounds about right. I only saw one Fish deck the entire day (was looking around at other matches).

I'm thinking 4 Chalice is good for the board. With only a single 0 cost artifact, I think that it can be good as a quick drop versus combo. A crypt can go. REB's should stay. They simply are too good against Mono-Blue and 4cC. PoP needs some more testing. That was a more last minute decision, so I don't know how much it actually helps.

I'm working with some different burn. Testing is in order for that.

Prevelant decks I saw (at least two towards the end of the tournament):

FCG
Mono-Blue
LongDeath
4cC
Workshop

~MindFlayerMagi

To answer some questions:

Blood Moon - Is great. However, I drew it only a few times, and had trouble getting it passed permission (most games I drew it were pre-sideboard). It slaughters 4cC.

Lavamancers - Plenty of food went around. There were typically a critter or two along with a Wasteland, a fetchland and some burn in the board.

Burn - Maybe. I would definitely test the 4cC matchup with some different configurations. The 5 toughness on Angel is the most annoying part.

-------

Also, I have pretty much conclusively found that Troll Ascetic is better than Call of the Herd. It is a must counter for so many decks. If it gets on the board, is almost always stays on the board. I've only had one die a couple times.

~MindFlayerMagi

Well, I decided on Lotus (as there is only a little bit of Workshop here).

I went 2-4 at the tourney today. No prize, but it was still a lot of fun.

My final build:

R/G v3.0

4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Troll Ascetic
4 Kird Ape
4 River Boa
3 Gorilla Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer

3 Null Rod
3 Blood Moon

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

Sideboard:

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Artifact Mutation
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Price of Progress

---------------------------------

I had made some fairly last minute changes to my sideboard. I didn't have 4 CotV or PoP, but I decided to run 2/2 over 4 Pyrostatic Pillar. I'm still not entirely sure if I made the right choice.

We had 43 people show up, and 6 rounds of play.

Match 1 - Joel Wood - 4cC

Game 1 - An early Blood Moon and some burn and beats made this go quick. The only creatures that hit the board on his side were two Soldier tokens off a cycled Decree of Justice.

Sideboard Out: 4 Fire/Ice, 2 Kird Ape
Sideboard In: 4 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Price of Progress

Game 2 - I had an early Rancored Boa, and he had a face-down Exalted Angel. He didn't have the mana to unmorph it, and so after taking four damage from it I threw a Lightning Bolt at it. After some more hectic plays, I finally worked him down to five life. A Price of Progress resolved, as he had used his last counter in hand on a previous spell of mine.

1 - 0 (2-0)

Match 2 - Craig - 4cC

Game 1 - First turn Exalted Angel is a bad thing, especially when you fail to draw enough burn to get rid of it. I'll leave it at that.

Sideboard Out: 4 Fire/Ice, 2 Kird Ape
Sideboard In: 4 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Price of Progress

Game 2 - I was able to get a Gorilla Shaman out and Rancor it, before it layed a second turn Exalted Angel. I had burn, but with the flash of an FoW the game went downhill from there.

1 - 1 (2-2)

Match 3 - Jason - LongDeath

Game 1 - I played a first turn River Boa, and Rancored him the next. He comboed out turn two, with a Tendrils of Agony dealing 24 damage to me.

Sideboard Out - 3 Troll Ascetic, 3 Kird Ape (not sure)
Sideboard In - 4 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Chalice of the Void

Game 2 - I kept a better hand. After laying an first turn Troll Ascetic, I beat face for a while as he built up his hand. I REB'd a Brainstorm and an Ancestral Recall. He was able to play a Yawgmoth's Bargain, with 12 life left. He drew five cards, and passed the turn. This continued for a while, until he was down to one life and still not comboing out. He conceded.

Game 3 - Same as the first game, except that I was able to counter some shit and make him go off a turn slower (3rd turn Tendrils of Agony).

So after a great first match against 4cC, I had proceeded to lose the two after it.

1 - 2 (3 - 4)

Match 4 - Pat - U/G Madness (no Bazaars)

Game 1 - I kept a decent hand. I had some decent burn, and played an early Lavamancer. Staring down a Wild Mongrel, a Basking Rootwalla, and a Wurm was not what the 'mancer had it mind. I promptly lost.

Sideboard Out: 2 Null Rod, 1 Blood Moon
Sideboard In: 3 Red Elemental Blast

Game 2 - This was a close race to the finish. We both mulliganed to five cards. I was able to get down an active Lavamancer, followed by a Rancored River Boa.  I burnt out his creatures, and beat him to the finish with the unblockable Boa.

Game 3 - Angry Monkies are fun. He had a Mongrel, a Rootwalla, and a Aquamoeba on the table. It took some time, but I was able to work through them and get in for the win. Red Elemental Blasts are good when they let you keep an early Troll Ascetic off a Lotus.

2 - 2 (5-5)

Match 5 - Dan - 4cC

Yay! I got to play 4cC again...

Game 1 - Exalted Angel is a bitch. I simply didn't draw enough burn to get rid of it. I had double Kird Ape, but a face-down Angel left alone is a bad thing. I promptly lost once it was flipped up.

Sideboard Out: 4 Fire/Ice, 2 Kird Ape
Sideboard In: 4 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Price of Progress

Game 2 - This time was a little better. I had double REB's. My early Blood Moon was countered (even after drawing others out). A Swords to Plowshares rid me of my River Boa, leaving me a couple of Kird Apes. He hardcast an Exalted Angel, and I was left in topdeck mode. I dropped two Grim Lavamancers, but it wasn't enough. The Angel went all the way.

2 - 3 (5-7)

Match 6 - (I feel bad as this is my only opponent of whom I didn't get their name) - Salvagers Combo

Game 1 - After seeing an early Pyrite Spellbomb, I got working. Blood Moon did bad things to his mana, but he Mystical Tutored for an Enlightened Tutor for a Black Lotus. He then proceeded to Time Walk and win.

Sideboard Out: 2 Troll Ascetic,  2 Kird Ape, 4 Fire/Ice
Sideboard In: 2 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Chalice of the Void, 4 Tormod's Crypt

Game 2 - I was able to drop an early Null Rod. With no way to combo out, he Tinkered for a Darksteel Colossus. I was able to slow it down by a turn with my River Boas. If I had topdecked a Bolt or a Rancor (and had he not had plenty of counters in his hand), the game would have been mine. Sadly, an 11/11 trampler tends to roll over little snakes.

Final: 2 - 4 (5-9)

Overall, it was a good experience. We had 43 people there. I didn't stay, so I don't know what the Top 8 was. I believe that there were two FCG decks, the LongDeath that I played against, and some other stuff.

~MindFlayerMagi

Well, I have one leftover proxy for the tournament Sunday. I have comtemplated a few things. I think that Mox Ruby is not good to have as the only power piece. However, I am still torn between Black Lotus or Mox Emerald.

Black Lotus-

Pros: Quick burst, any color mana
Cons: Welder target, only useable once

Mox Emerald-

Pros: Reusable green (great under a moon)
Cons: Only green, vulnerable to being eaten

At times I am leaning towards the Mox, but other times the benefits of the Lotus are powerful. Any opinions on this?

~MindFlayerMagi

Actually, I received another Null Rod in the mail (trading), so I have one more open proxy slot. I'm not sure which of the three would be best though. I like Lotus, because I don't have that many welders/shops in my meta, but I also like Mox Emerald for its reusable green mana under a Blood Moon.

So currently I am something like this:

R/G v2.2

4 Troll Ascetic
4 Kird Ape
4 River Boa
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

4 Rancor
3 Null Rod
3 Blood Moon

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
4 Forest
1 Black Lotus / Mox Emerald / Mox Ruby
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Artifact Mutation
1 Gorilla Shaman

I'm working on the last touches on the sideboard. Is there anything better to place there than the Chain Lightnings? They can come in and help burn out random aggro, or O-Stompy, but I'm sure that there is probably a better choice.

Any thoughts? Sideboard tweaks? I'm hoping to take this to a tourney on Sunday.

~MindFlayerMagi

Well, Blood Moon does do a lot against D4RG0N, but maybe not so much against other kinds of combo.



But I'm poor...

Anyway, I just found out that I'm 99% likely to not be able to borrow the power that I need for this. This makes me a sad panda, as right now it means adding basic lands. Unless I can miraculously gain some combination of 3 Wasteland / 2 Null Rod to be able to proxy the three pieces, then I will have to do basics... Unless any of you have better suggestions.

I think that +2 Forest +1 Mountain would be best, to have some more fetchable basic Forests.

Any thoughts about this predicament?

~MindFlayerMagi

Well, really the Blood Moons are a metagame choice. Many of those discussing the deck find that they are essential for their meta.

With my meta (last Top 8):

1- D4RG0N
2- R4V4G3R
3- Salvagers
4- Storm Combo
5- Oshawa Stompy
6- 4CC
7- Masknought
8- Landstill

Blood Moons do a lot to help keep the deck on its feet. D4RG0N, O-Stomp, and 4cC all take extra hits from an early Blood Moon.

But that's also the reason why I don't recommend running four, unless your entire Top 8 is Dragon and 4cC. You just don't need it against a lot of other decks. If you only have a few 4cC around at your store, then they are better off in the board. I, however, have at least 3 4cC and a couple Dragon players most of the time. That makes it a lot better choice as maindecked hate.

Overall, it is really just a personal choice.

~MindFlayerMagi

I agree that sometimes the prizes can be overboard. While having good prize support is a great thing to draw people in, I think there can be a cap based on how it is promoted. Promoting on TMD is great, but it can't do anything to the extent of SCG plastering their events on the front page for a month or two ahead. It is a matter of raw site traffic.

I find that a single piece of Power to first place, followed by other good prizes is great. My local store typically gets around 50-60 people for its Vintage events. The entry is kept quiet low: $10, or $13 with 5 proxies. The next tournament has an UL Mox Ruby up for first. The second and third place prizes are store credit. Here is where it gets good: The highest placing player without proxies, but who didn't get any prize, gets all the extra money collected from those playing with proxies. This easily gets up to $50 or so. This keeps people wanting to finish out their decks, insetad of relying on proxies. It is also a nice added bit of prize support to possibly further along the list.

The prizes are easily kept in budget, even with such a low entry fee. Since the events are held in the store, that also saves money.

I think that a tournament of 50 or more can give away one or two pieces of power, depending on entry fee. Still, there isn't any reason to complain about getting a Mana Drain or such for taking second. That's still a solid chunk of cardboard cash in your hand.

~MindFlayerMagi

Very true. However, if you have a lot of Workshop, then you definitely want to be running 4 Artifact Mutation in the board, if not 4 Naturalize maindeck. Control is hard, but winnable.



Yep. I have tried Mogg Fanatic. If you have a ton of Gay/r or Welders running around, or just a lot of random aggro, the Fanatic can be better than Kird Ape. However, most of the time the staying power of Kird Ape is quite fantastic. Really, it is more of a meta choice, but even then I prefer Kird Ape.



I've tried both, but I've found two things:

1) Slots. I find only 8 burn to be necessary, and Lightning Bolt and Fire/Ice are superior to Magma Jet. Also, trying to find room for Libraries is hard. The deck is already quite full. If you don't run Blood Moon, you could opt for 3 Sylvan Library in their place, or something similar.

2) Effectiveness. Magma Jet is great because it doubles as removal and fixing. Sylvan Library is good, but is only one sided. If anyone has some testing of Library (more than I do, which isn't a ton), then it would be great if you'd share your results with it.

~MindFlayerMagi

Since when did the discussion switch to Type 1.5? This is the Vintage Newbie Forum, not the Type 1.5 Forum.

Anyway, disregarding the 1.5 thing, some of your points are valid. A couple things...

First, Affinity is not destroyed by it. This is a typical artifact mana base for Affinity:

1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal

Then they have 13 non-basics. They can easily play around a Blood Moon, as they can still play the beatdown because red mana can be used on artifacts. Also, artifact lands are still artifacts under a Blood Moon. If you have more conclusive testing of this matchup then I do, then please share your results. It will drive this discussion better overall.



Well, this is Vintage, so yes it is an auto-inclusion. You had restricted cards in your list, so I would assume that your build was for Vintage.



Again, I don't have enough pertinent playtesting information to make a final decision about this. However, I'm not sure how much you are grasping the fact that this deck isn't really that Aggro. Think Gay/r. You drop pertinent hate, lay some quick Rancored beats, and keep threats off the table. Magma Jet has two benefits over Chain Lightning:

1) Instant Speed
2) Draw-Fixing

In most competitive Vintage metagames, an extra point of damage isn't important. If you do find a lot of Aggro decks in your format, then maybe Chain Lightning is better. The extra mana really isn't a problem.

Now that I've been discussing this more, I'd almost say that my first choice for testing would be Magma Jet for slots 9-12 (if I ran more burn, which I don't).



True. Having dead cards doesn't necessarily spell game loss. I think that 4 Blood Moon can be ran easier if you also run Magma Jet. This can help stop having multiples in your hand, or drawing it at all if you don't need it. The only problem is that Blood Moon is pretty much dead against more decks than just Sligh. Smemmen Blue, Sligh... Pretty much any mono-colored deck, which you will run in to. Since I do not run Magma Jet, I find that 4 Blood Moon is too much, and three is a better number. If you really find a lot of Control/D4RG0N/etc., then you can easily board in a fourth.



This is one of the things that I am currently testing. Too bad I can't get any by the 10th for the tourney I'm taking this to.

I'm hoping to get some 4cC testing in soon. I'll let everyone know my results when I finish some matches.

~MindFlayerMagi

I really think that 4 MD Blood Moon is too much. Even if half of your field is control, you will hit yourself over the head when you draw as a dead card every game against some noob with a Sligh deck and lose. While that's hyperbole, four is too many. Having 3 lets you draw it once, and then if you need to, board in a 4th against control and D4RG0N.

If you are only running 7-8 burn spells, I would much rather have 4 Lightning Bolt and 3-4 Fire/Ice. In all of my testing, it has been infinitely more versatile than either Magma Jet or Chain Lightning. Along with Grim Lavamancer, it lets you take out all manners of Aggro and Fish. For more burn, I still don't know whether Magma Jet or Chain Lightning is better for slots 9-12. The fixing is nice, but the less mana required for Chain Lightning is also nice. At the moment, that slot seems to be more personal preference.



Untrue. The deck, if anything, is an Aggro/Control deck. Against many decks, your plan is to drop a Null Rod or a Blood Moon and then sit back and keep problems off the board until you win. Most of the time, you aren't winning the same as you might goldfish the deck.

Running more artifact-mana than you need is not so great. While more can help under a Blood Moon, I think these thoughts:

1) The card disadvantage of Chrome Mox is bad. You don't have any way to recoup it.

2) Lotus Petal can be good. However, adding more artifact mana just gets you shut out more by your own Null Rods (which you want to lay quickly against most decks).

3) Mana Crypt sucks when the game drags. And, when you play a Null Rod, it deals three damage to you every two turns. Putting yourself on a clock is a bad thing.

4) I have discussed the argument against running any one-time artifact mana at-all. That includes Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, etc. This is mainly a concern if your meta is full of Slaver, Stax, or Workshop decks. Against these decks, you want to lay an early Null Rod, and having them just weld it out is bad.

Overall, you really need to run a full complement of 5 strip effects. If you maindeck Blood Moons (more than 2), then I wouldn't run any more fetches, but if not, then another 2 Windswept Heath can work well to get the Taigas you need and to thin your deck.

I've found 3 Grim Lavamancer to be the fairly ideal number. If your meta is full of Aggro, I would almost say add one of him and another set of burn (Chain Lightning/Magma Jet).



I'm not really sure where the idea that he's on a strict budget came from. We had a thorough discussion about Magma Jet vs. Chain Lightning previous, and he decided that he prefers Magma Jet. He has Taigas in his build. He doesn't have power, and I would think it a fair assumption that he doesn't play Proxy, otherwise they would be in the list. Anyway...

My current list looks like this:

R-G Beats v2.1

Mana (23)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald

Beats (18)
3 Gorilla Shaman
4 River Boa
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer

Burn (8)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

Other (10)
4 Rancor
3 Null Rod
3 Blood Moon

Sideboard (15)
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Artifact Mutation
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 [Open metagame slots]

This has been doing quite well in testing. Having 4 Elvish Spirit Guide helps a lot under a Blood Moon, but I have considered dropping one for another Forest (because reusable green sources are nice under a Blood Moon). Elvish Spirit Guide also doubles as non-artifact mana acceleration, which is a boon for the deck.

~MindFlayerMagi

Well, Fish really shouldn't be a problem for you. With 10-12 burn spells being typical to most R/G builds, along with 5 strip effects and Grim Lavamancer, it becomes a fairly easy matchup. While it isn't anywhere near an "auto-win", it is most definitely in your favor.

With Top 8's filled by 4cC and Fish, these are the obvious sideboard inclusions:

3 Blood Moon
4 Red Elemental Blast

If you don't encounter a lot of Workshop decks, then I think you may be better off with Naturalize over Artifact Mutation. Naturalize doubles against Dragon, and can also help stop Fish's tempo.

While Fish is an easier matchup, I have not done enough testing against 4cC to be able to give much specific advice. If someone has some more experience in this area, that would be great.

Blood Moon really shines here (as in most heavy control decks, like Tog and the aforementioned 4cC). However, it can have some detrimental effects on you.

Since you run ESG, it is easier to power out green cards after you drop a Blood Moon. I've beat a Tog player with just a River Boa after laying a Null Rod and a Blood Moon.

Some cards to through out as thought-food (not mentioned above):

Price of Progress
Scald
Primitive Justice
Hidden Gibbons

If personal testing against fish goes badly, you can always try out Tsabo's Web to snub them pretty badly. Then your burn just takes over to take out Faeries and such.

Slice and Dice can definitely help against angel tokens and FCG. It helps against Fish, but probably isn't necessary for that, however. But I like the way it demolishes angel tokens.

The number of Gorilla Shamans you run is really dependant on your meta. If you have a TON of power going around, then it is probably best at 3 Gorilla Shaman and 3 Null Rod. Against a less powered meta, 2 would be my minimum. If your meta is scrub-tastic, then they probably aren't needed. 2-3 Null Rods MD may be enough to stop random painful artifacts (although removal is typically flat-out better for that).

Boa is crazy against decks like Tog and BBS. Troll is like Boa on crack, but without Islandwalk. It is bigger, untargetable, and is a must-counter for so many decks. Trolls are kind of like herpes. They just never go away.

~MindFlayerMagi