Ah I see where you're coming from. You're right in that regard. Ignoring the bigger vintage picture does give that practical use of the word that makes for compelling arguments against/ for the b&r list, which is always on the mind of the community. In that sense how would you differentiate between stagnant and stable? As much as I would argue that stagnation is always present, I would definitely look at whether or not the format was stable. In this case, I feel the format is stable and therefor very healthy. Nothing needs to be done just yet imo, but it comes from the balance between stable and stagnant.  


LOL! Tip of my hat to you, sir  

Okie dokie, let's try this again. I'd have to agree that the metagame will always be stagnant based on the defined engines and automatically included staples of the format. It may seem ridiculoulsy narrow, but unfortunately that's the position vintage has found itself in. You claim things are shaken up following whatever and then stabalizes in stagnation, but in reality that is just the illusion that the stagnation wasn't there throughout it all. The DCI actually can't do anything to upset this. They will never, ever print anything on the power level of the first years of printing. They'll print risky things, but nothing will ever challenge those established cards. The very fact that these engines and auto-includes exist will make the format forever stagnant at it's base level. No amount of innovation can change that. The closest thing to disrupting said stagnation is to tweak it in an unexpected way. One could agrue that that innovation disrupts the stagnation temporarily, but if you look at the bigger picture you'll see that nothing every really changes. The cards that have established the format always come from the early sets. Anything else merely compliments that base. In that sense, stagnation is permanent.

And the horse has cancer. Hope you feel just a little bit worse about that one.

So you won't be happy until he gives you a brand NEW, never before seen stack of cards? Something that does not mirror any established tier, something that does not make use of any established engine, something entirely NEW? New is a pretty relative term chum. Landstill is NEW as it may have existed but wasn't viewed as a viable stack until recently. Same with Shaymora. Let's put this to the test. You walk up to someone a couple weeks back and ask them what they expect to play, they say "Stax, Gush based decks, possibly Dredge and Doomsday depending on the size of the event". You ask them now and you may get "Stax, Gush based decks, Landstill, possibly Dredge and Doomsday". Woah. A modified, NEW answer.

You want to complain that something- in your incredibly narrow sense of the word- NEW has not come about? Good luck with that. You must not have much experience with the format? This isn't a rotating world where every year you get entirely different decks based on the newly released sets. Things are established in vintage. Might actually need to either update your definition or just play type 2. You'll be very happy there.

LOL seriously? Don't you know what happens when you give a mouse a cookie??

OMG I need to go write an article on how warping and unfun Landstill is to play against.

Meandeck Landstill? LOL! Only a matter of time...

Agree to disagree. You keep your opinion, we'll keep ours.

By the way, is Timetwister turn 0, one sided and zero mana to cast? No? Odd. /facepalm

Goodnight, and good luck.

Yeah, I usually don't come out of the woodwork to comment on these kinds of things, but this is just getting silly. Smenenenen and co have actually explained in every way, shape, and form how pointless these arguments are. Workshop warps the format too you know! I mean, you have to actually play basic lands, bounce spells, and have the mindset that your shit might just cost more mana... Where's the huge argument against how unfun and warping that is?

The crew of logic and reason will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Nothing will happen, and I mean nothing. Bazaar/ Powder won't get touched and this individual has no intention of changing his opinion (both of which are 100% acceptable). He's allowed to vent about having to care about metagaming and how unfun that can be.

You might as well just let this one go. Trust me, I've had the same kind of fun trying to convince people that 9/11 was not an inside job... You can't ever win. Just tip your hat and walk away.

I would actually say Powder is closer to Diminishing Returns as it exiles shit... And that's unrestricted. Wheeeeeeeeeee!

Haven't seen this really mentioned... Have you had issues casting Bitter Ordeal? Could always give Lotus Cobra a go... Not to mention having the potential to do some nutty things in general...

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

SSDD.

Ravenous Trap
2BB
Instant - Trap
If an opponent had three or more cards put into his or her graveyard from anywhere this turn, you may pay 0 rather than pay Ravenous Trap's mana cost.
Exile all cards from target player's graveyard.

Damn. Dredge, old buddy-- face it. No one likes you.

Aside from that? Not bad in combating Will... But let's be realistic. Die dredge... in a ravenous trap.

I really don't understand why you waste time, energy, and space on trying to prove yourself right. Build the deck and win with it and you'll win the argument. Otherwise, enjoy rambling on pointlessly while they simply say 'nope- sucks.'

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ts/202.jpg

Unless you actually read the card...

Aww. You poor little thing. Funny how that thread has no new posts and they're just stackin up here.

Can't wait to see how the BG and BW look. Badass layout I imagine...

Yeah, uh, ok. We get it. Caverns + Rotation is not threatening and would be a very stupid direction to take Dredge. I think it's safe to say people can stop repeating the same information while "contributing" their own points on top of what has already been said. I'm sure one of you pros could go start a thread all about how terrible an idea it is to make such ridiculous additions to an already mediocre deck... So go do it elsewhere.
 
Back to the, you know, point of this thread... Blue mages may weep over the loss of yet another potent draw spell and embrace their highlander destinies, but I'm happy they're at least attempting to restore balance to the rest of the color wheel. It's a wink late to realize how doomed their own system is but at least they're trying. Boo blue... I welcome something other than the same old recycled shit from the past 3+ years.

A wink depressing IMO. Not aiming at the read, but just reminiscing on how at the beginning of the year I was an avid vintage player sporting a devoted group of 5 others who would regularly commute to all areas within a 5 state radius fer this game. Now? Every single one of us has quit... Myself porting to weak ass type 2. Yeah, I know, qq'in like crazy, but one can't help but feel this massive vintage recession. Regardless of what people say, this format is on its deathbed. What was once a diverse metagame and blooming population has dwindled to few "big names" and other randoms not willing to make repeat visits to the local card shops. 

Out of pure boredom I came back to this site only to find this downer (yet very well written and still a noice read). Once again, I know yall think this is the shit. To each his own, after all. Different strokes and all that jazz...

Keep enjoyin the disco and the... elves.

 
/end rant. Once again- very well written. Don't want that to be overlooked by the rest of this "bs".

Well said.

Now, let's try this again (keeping everybody's feelings in mind [though I am still yet to be shot down by the actual author whom definitely knows much about criticism*]). Ahem--

Steve, although I grow incredibly weary of this subject, and while I didn't actually see anything new/intriguing, it was a well-written tournament report.

*Not sarcasm.

Insulting you say? Apologies to you good, kind sir but what could I possibly say that you would consider "productive"? Would you like me to reference every other TPS list and point out the lack of anything different? It was a tournament report... That's it. A well written tournament report, but just a tournament report none the less. There is no doubt that individuals who play this type of deck enjoyed this just as they enjoyed every other TPS article and report both Smenenenen and others have written but that doesn't mean that the other percentage of the community that has grown tired of repetition should be denied an opinion about this article (even if some perceive it as "insulting").

As for my comment regarding the title... Yeah. I'm not the first to mention it (and they got feedback by the actual author- wowee!) or mention the lack of Shards (save this ghostly Tez character or a random Canonist) but perhaps you are right. To be fair, he didn't say "Post Shards Tourney Report with actual Post Shards cards" so maybe I should have thought twice before referencing such things... I'll try super duper hard to keep you and others like you in mind when voicing my opinion regarding articles. Wait, then it's not quite my opinion is it? Every article ever written is going to have things pointed out to it... Not everyone will want to drop immediately to their knees.

LOL!

Guess it was ok. Yup, I am now even more aware of how "savage" Dark Rituals and the storm mechanic are. Nothing new or interesting here, but who doesn't enjoy reading tourney reports? Gave me something to do on my break aside from Colbert Report...

Good job with the title. If you would have called it "EVEN MORE fun with TPS" I would have skipped it... But the title made me believe I would see something new or innovative... Like... from Shards. Sneaky sneaky...

Touche.

Pointless comment based on not fully understanding/ comprehending Magic rules removed. Know, though, that I got served.

Interesting take on Slaver. How is capsule without Welder? Or is that like asking how Smokestack is without Workshop?

Yeah... All those times he secured a win or just developed the board position enough to do so. I love how people continue to diss Confi and then proceed to watch it win... again and again and again.

Great job! Quite an innovative way to take the AN idea.

Sigh... Never thought I'd be one to defend Smenenenenen but articles like this one (and yes, the Parfait one as well) are the reason that I renew my SCG Premium account.

A couple weeks back, I saw his TPS article and opted to read Chapins instead. Who hasn't heard every little scrutiny regarding freaking TPS? Every report posted on these forums with one freaking changed card is suddenly a "new innovative" pile of shit that needs to have a monstrous amount of elaboration... It's just Long...... still. Always has been. Intuition Tendrils? Yeah... right. T1T. The shit gets old. I finally broke down and sold out after the restrictions. Who the hell wants to play in a format thats a repeat of what it was years ago? Deja vu tends to get very, very old very, very quickly.

Then come articles like this. Parfait? "Crazy Stax"? I raise an eyebrow- obviously intrigued- and proceed to read the articles. They may indeed (as many here seem to be infinitely sure of) be piles of shit, and I always find myself thinking "creative, but if I ever built this I would try this instead"... Then realize what just happened. It got me thinking about the format again. Wanting to try new things. Absolutely amazing... And I see it happening here as well... I'm just not sure people realize what he is doing. Well, I shouldn't say that. I notice (and it takes a fair amount of filtering) that the smart ones do. They did the same thing I did. They were intrigued enough to tinker with it... If only for fun. It was something different that got us thinking about, well, something different.

So Steve, avoid the apes flinging feces and continue doing what you're doing.

... Though I would definitely be sporting Undergrounds, Urbogs, Duresses, and Dark Confidant.

Nothing like givin Eminem a run for his money...

Never bring up team behavior. That is what we should take from this thread... We were talking about some Life from the Loam deck or something and now its all about team O and D.

No Crop Rotation eh? Had you considered something like Rifstone Portal?

I'm not sure whether to call this good or just lucky, but I sure as hell will say I'm impressed. Keep up the innovations sir!

Not true. Damage may cause loss of life, but loss itself is not considered damage. Hence why Angel's Grace, Worship, and Circle of Protection: Black can't stop Tendrils of Agony.

... Might want to find a different piece of utility for Skullclamp or a different piece of hate for Null Rod. You know rod shuts down the ability to Equip with Clamp right? Rumbling Slum is a wink slow for Vintage... Should consider adding black for Dark Confidant and hand disruption. Maybe Thorn as well? Otherwise pretty basic RG Beats...

Fires also strikes me as being too slow for this format. Thats mana you could have used to play some form of disruption or some other critter... Consider Megrim for instance. In the time it took a player to play Megrim, they could have torn the opponent's hand to bits. Fires is a Time Walk for your opponent, no matter how good haste may be in the long run. Maybe if you had the necessary disruption to buy the time you need, but even that plan is very far fetched.

Bad idea. It isn't just about Academy you silly blue mage... Hey Stax- hows about more Strip Mines for ya?

It isn't as good as you'd think. When Chrome first came out TPS players tried it... and I saw many more games fizzle due to the card disadvantage than won due to another accelerant.

VROMAN! WAKE UP! YOUR DREAM HAS COME TRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUE!

Razz? Wtf is that? LOL... Honestly though, Infestation is a finisher and was amazing in the world full of Stax/ aggro that it debuted in. Nowadays though... I can understand not wanting it to clog up the main.