#1 Obv obv obv
#2 Clearly he's not going, so he can't win.
#8 Disagree.  Based on your final statement, and based on Josh's absense, I would put you at second place.  =)
#16 Ben Perry's going?  I did not know that.

Anyway, the point of this post: I look forward to seeing everyone; it's been far too long.  But as we all know, I stepped out.  I did not step down.

I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out why there is a debate here...

The metagame is simply what people are playing in your area.  Obviously, if you're playing in a small town with a bunch of scrubs, and the only expensive cards you see are basic lands covered in Sharpies, you're not going to be running certain cards maindeck...

...but in a real tourney, the field is full of many different decks.  Type 1 is different today than it was two years ago.  Years ago, you had the blue based control deck, and decks that sometimes beat that deck.  Now, there are so many different viable archetypes that Type 1 has become a format diverse enough to acknowledge running solutions in the maindeck, because if you don't, you will get random losses to that deck at any given event, assuming that event is large enough to host people of all styles.

SCG P9 tourneys are a classic example, but even local Mox tourneys provide a home for aggro, combo, prison, and control.  I haven't played a tourney without a little of everything in a long time.

If you don't have to worry about 2 or more of the archetypes, then of course you will argue that Slaver is a metagame dependant deck.  When you always have to have a plan for every archetype, however, you need to consider the fact that there is an ideal card for each of your 75 slots.  That's what we're looking for in this thread.  We want to beat up on everything, not just elves and Hypnotic Specters that 9 year olds play with at the local $3 vintage tourneys in the middle of Podunk, Idaho.

Re: The Tendrils plan w/out Jar
You don't actually PLAN on running the Tendrils for 20 game with this deck, it's just there.  In fact, I believe the ONLY reason it's there is so you can win in turns, and it just happens to win other games on the spot when the situation allows.

Type 1 is a format where you really want to be able to "just win," which is one of the weaknesses I've been experiencing with Oath.

Re: The Crucible plan
Crucible of Worlds is in the deck for two reasons.  One, it gives you a mana advantage.  Two, it allows you to Slaver lock.  Gifts Ungiven is also a more powerful card because of Crux.  Slaver likes to have lots of mana, and when you have more mana than your opponent, you usually end up winning.  On a side note, discarding lands to Thirst is less painful when you have Crucible.

Re: Citadel over Seat/Factory
You're forgetting one key card - Gorilla Shaman.  The original reason for including Citadel back in the day was to ignore Gorilla Shaman.  Citadel is better for several reasons.  The first being it discards to Thirst.  Two, it doesn't die to Shaman or Wasteland (two very prominent cards).  Finally, it is better with Welder (Welder makes mana by welding it in/out for another artifact mana source).  The deck is more synergistic with Citadel, and that makes it the wiser choice.

Wow, that's beautiful dude...  That list is a freakin' ecosystem, totally unreliant on the world outside of it.

I am totally in love with your idea of running Tormod's Crypt, Hurkyl's Recall, Duplicant, Titan, and Chain of Vapor in the mainboard.  You have all of these answers, which is solid.

My only concern is your combo matchup.  At first glance, it looks like your worst matchup.  By no means unwinnable, but still your worst.  I'd probably go ahead and cut the lone Blue Blast in the board and bring in an additional Tormod's Crypt, a lone Stifle, or even a Triskelion (Trike is good in other matchups too, and probably good enough for the SB) for Xantid Swarms.

Slaver has come a long way, adjusting to the metagame like a doppleganger, and I'm glad to see it's still filling the role of the best control deck in the format ^.^

Wow, I'm glad that you're having success with the deck.

I think that not winning that tourney made me hate Oath, but I think there are some things that can be fixed.  In all honest, I think testing different builds are the only way to figure out where to go.

For example, Chalice might be better as Engineered Explosives (yeah, three of them), Mana Drains may be better as Duresses and some of the other stuff like Crucible might be better as black tutors.  Unfortunately, up at CMU, I have no good way of playing or testing any of this, especially at tournament level.


Agree, tutors would be the nut high.  I'll have to test a black build next and see what I think.  I lost way too many games because I just couldn't find Oath, despite the drawing and searching that already exists.

And the lack of hasted creatures, I guess you just have to be a good player to know how to effectively race opposing creatures.  Knowing when not to attack, knowing when to oath again, etc - it's all valuable knowledge that mental math usually provides for you.  I agree, many games came down to the wire, but my bigger creatures almost always prevailed.  Once you switch to Triskelion in these matchups, it's no longer a race, it's a disaster for the opponent.

I'll continue to work with this deck.  I haven't given up yet - there are still many things to try and I'm hoping winter break will give me the opportunity to bash people with creatures.

Hmmmmm... I'll give you three guesses =)

Clearly, winning an Ancestral seem like a good way to recoup whatever you spend on beer for the Michigan v. Michigan State game on Saturday.  Oh wait, we're Magic players and we don't care about football...

Hmmm, well, clearly winning an Ancestral Recall seems good.  Come play!

So I've finally found a place up here where I can get a free wireless signal that lasts longer than 10 seconds.

Ben, you've been one of my favorite people in our metagame ever since I've met you.  It's good to know that you're quitting for very justifiable reasons.  I traded my cardboard for a new life too, and it hasn't been the worst decision I've ever made.

But since you're intent on making me look bad in the Gencon thread by saying I went 0-2 and played Slaver, none of which was true, I must add this in - if you quit playing you'll never have a chance to beat me.  As far as I can remember, I'm still X-0 against you in all events we've ever been paired for.  =)

Anyway, I have no intention of ceasing conversation in our future.  Good luck with everything you do and let me know if there's anything I can do to help you.  I will do my best to be here for you, despite being 3 hours away now that I've relocated.

You will be missed.

     Mark B.

This is the day before school starts.  What better way to spend it 4 hours away from CMU getting drunk afterward?  I'll try to make this as well!

Hahahahaha I was thinking the same thing when I saw Juntu Stakes.  Good times JD.

But really, people, come on.  Welder is not fun?  First you bitch about Trinisphere being unfun, and I can almost understand that.  But Welder now?  Seriously, will everyone continue to bitch until the only playable deck is the deck he/she likes?  I bet that would be a great format.  I played in the era of Keeper v Mono Black and it wasn't very fun.

The trick is to find that one deck that doesn't lose to Slaver or Stax, and that's a tough call right there.  On the other hand, it gets harder.  Not only do we have to beat those two decks, but we have to be resistant to creatures beating us down and we also cannot randomly lose to Tendrils or Reanimated Dragons.

Slaver has more work to do against Stax than before.  Without Green or White cards, it's hard to answer all of the Enchantments that Stax plays that say "Fuck Blue."

Knickers, perhaps I can help turn your hope into reality; I don't own any power 

To be honest, I'm not sure what's going to win.  Obviously, I want to have faith in our deck, but there are a lot of really good players going, and they're all smart enough to keep their lists to themselves for the time being.  I don't expect any of these threads to work; nobody with brains is going to disclose what they'll be playing.

Oh look, Josh F. has finally started posting here, and he has the audacity to talk trash to those that are actually GOING to the tournament!  Hehehe... but I must say, some of this is pretty good.


Wins.


You have a point here, but I must say that I will be keeping hands with mana sources in them, something you seemed to have trouble doing in Chicago... 

Hahaha...

The Vintage Avant-Garde plays with Artifacts.  I'll be generous enough to say that much at least.

That art is pretty hot.

But I do not like the fact that it's actually a Magic card face.  I'd be much happier if the painting were just the picture rather than a full card.  Do you know if this is the case or not?

God people, I am not retired.  Just because I traded a bunch of shiny cardboard for a new life doesn't mean I won't be defending my title.

You guys have it all wrong... it's going to be something close to this:

Steve is going to go X-0 again, or X-1 to secure another Meandeck member a top 8 slot.  Then he's going to get beat down by Juggernaut again in the Top 8 and I won't have to play him.

I am going to personally look over Brian's deck regestration to make sure he writes down every card in his deck so that he doesn't get multiple match losses due to registering multiple Mox Sapphires.  With my help here, I think he might make Top 8 as well.

As for me, well, I'm going to sneak into the Top 8 again due to sheer luck, like last year.  Then, I will refuse to lose, like last year.  Of course, I need to get just as lucky, because as everyone knows I didn't win because I am good at Magic.  I look forward to adding another painting to my wall.

This is all in fun.  Michigan v Meandeck for life!

HEY!  The Vintage Avant-Garde drinks alone!

Brian, what are you thoughts of playing a Vampiric Tutor in the SB?  Suddenly, you have 2 more ways to find Balance and/or Tinker in the Maindeck, which can give you a much better game 1 against Fish.  The card disadvantage of Vamping is almost a good thing when you're getting Balance...

Blue Blast is an interesting choice.  If you're worried about FCG, why not just play another Swords in the board which could also be good against other decks.  The only advantage I see to BEB is that it is a Blue card.  Red cards don't seem to be a huge threat against this deck aside from Welder, and you won't be bringing in Blasts against Slaver, which brings me to another point...

Without Pithing Needle, is Slaver a tough matchup?  Looks like you have Duress, Scrying #4, and maybe Crypts/Coffin Purge.  I assume you'd board out Swords, Tinker/Colossus?  It still seems like you will have a tough time competing with their speed and threat density because of Goblin Welder.

I would probably play a board like this...

1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Energy Flux
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stifle
2 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Skeletal Scrying
2 Pithing Needle

Keep in mind Needle wrecks Bazaar's shit too if you are worried about it.

Turbo Gifts may be the new Drain deck of choice, and you should probably play 2 Crypts to deal with it.  You may even want 3, as I don't see Stifle doing much in this deck aside from randomly allowing you to not lose to Tendrils when you have 4 mana early in game 1.

If Oboro is working for you, keep it in.  You had to expect everyone would question its inclusion.  The way I see it, you have a lot of mana sources and it's not really meant to deal with non basic land hate, but rather to function as a third Island that allows you to do interesting things.  We techy players enjoy such cards in our decks...

Despite the fact that Brian cannot play, I'll be sure to represent for us =).  Anyone in the area that can make the trip should really come out for this.  This is only the beginning of what we hope to be a successful stream of T1 tournaments in SE Michigan.

There is a shortage of good Type 1 where we are, and I'm sure many of you are anxious to have better competition and better prizes.  If all goes well, RIW will hold future T1 events for better pieces of power in the future, though playing for a Twister is not a bad place to start off.  We need you all to come and play to make this happen!

Hope to see anyone and everyone.

     ~Mark B.

It's true, Spawning Pit has merits in Control Slaver because the deck deals with artifacts in general.  However, being an artifact also has negative aspects.  I have seen many different Oath sideboards, and I've seen many Oath players bring in artifact hate against Slaver.

The Welding aspect has no relevance to the game state as Rico has stated.  I don't plan on having a Welder in my deck game 2 or 3, so it doesn't matter.  To be honest with everyone, I will probably have 3 of each in my board and I will bring them all in.  You have to have one or the other or the game is going to end quickly and not in your favor...

The problem I have with using both of those cards is that you have to have them both in order to win.  Also, Tormod's Crypt has the "disadvantage" of costing zero in this case, which is a problem because they will probably have Chalice of the Void in play.  Oath is so fast in that it drops its threats on turn one or two and puts you on a fast clock.  Not to mention, you'll need to have two edicts in order to keep from losing.  That's three cards you need early in the game - seems a bit demanding to me.

@Jazzykat
It all depends on what you're trying to do with the Crypt.  If you want to stop the Blessing recursion, you activate your Crypt in response to the Blessing trigger on the stack.  It's even better if they have a creature in the graveyard from a previous turn already.

Again, the thing about Crypt that I don't like is the fact that it costs zero and Chalice of the Void is already a beating; I want to lessen the effects of the hate cards as much as possible by not bringing in more cards that they will affect.

     ~Mark B.

Right, I never meant to say that Clockwork Dragon is a good creature choice for the Oath matchup.  I was simply stating that when I was searching for non red or black creatures with toughness 7 or greater, he was something I thought of since there is not much available to me.  The idea I had was to find a creature I could board in to Oath up myself, that would either sit there and block or be able to win - there just isn't anything that can sit there and ping without being Red.  If anyone knows of something, please post it here because it would help us Slaver players beat the gayness that is Oath.

Duplicant is probably the best choice, but he does little to Pristine Angel.  New Oath decks are pretty efficient at owning Slaver in game 1, so I'm doing my best to think of tech to win after board.  Chalice = zero and Furnace are really good against Slaver, and it's a pretty tough matchup.  Against eveything else in the field, I'm pretty confident I can win.

Oh alright, I suppose I'll jump in here...

I like the Deep Analysis in the deck because I have always wanted to play with Intuition.  The reasons that I have been reluctant to do so is because I also don't like AKs in Slaver, and I also don't think Crucible is good.  There has already been enough discussion on this matter, so I'm just going to say one thing about Crucible and then move on to more important aspects of this deck - the creature(s).

Crucible of Worlds seems strong if you get it out, and I would have no problem running Seat of the Synod in a Shaman-less environment (Slaver is already a beating vs Stax).  However, the Strip Mine route to victory seems a bit ridiculous to me.  Control Slaver just wants to draw a bunch of cards and start doing really broken shit, and it does so very well.  Wasting time trying to stunt the opponent's mana with Strip Mine doesn't really fit here.  You are not playing with Smokestacks and Trinispheres, where Strip Mine is a house.  Since Type 1 utilizes mostly cheap spells and curves tend to top off at 3, a random Strip Mine is not going to lock the game.  Sure, it might steal one or two every now and then, but I mostly see Crucible being useful for the sole purpose of hitting your land drop every turn.  Also, when you Intuition for it, you're never getting Crucible in hand.

Having useful active Welders is getting harder and harder.  I find myself playing through a sea of Chalices set at zero, Phyrexian Furnaces, and Lava Darts, so it's hard to get an active Welder and even when I do he usually just sits there.  Thus, I've always tried to rely on him as little as possible.  Sometimes he wins me the game for one mana, but I try my best to be able to win without him.  It's important in today's field.

Is Pentavus the creature?  He might be.  Platinum Angel is a solid maindeck card, but she does nothing against control decks and she is not the house against Oath as she once was.  Ancient Hydra beats the hell out of Slaver, and if Oath is maindecking it, we will probably lose Game 1 unless we can control their board with more draw and counters.  It's not an easy matchup by any means.

Maindecking Triskelion is good in a Slaver field, but with the Lava Dart main, I don't think he's needed.  He's another dead card vs. Oath and I honestly think Oath is the deck to beat and will be for SCG Chicago once again.  With that in mind, I'm trying to tune Slaver to beating it games 2 and 3 since if Hydra hits play in game 1, I'll probably have no choice but to scoop.  Because of this deck, my team actually did consider Clockwork Dragon before reading any of this because he's not Red or Black and can block Akroma every turn.  I'm sure there are better options out there, so I'm not advocating Dragon, but he does serve a purpose, though not maindeck... 

     ~Mark B.

I see no reason not to run Welder.  Let's face it, Crucible of Worlds is not as good as it used to be, and Stax loses when it's opening hand was not good enough because it lacks a way to smooth out bad draws.  Let me point out the merits of Goblin Welder in Stax.

1 - If you rip a Welder in the mid game, after your opponent has used resources stopping your early lock attempt, he gets you back in the game if you're losing.

2 - He helps the deck defeat Force of Will and Mana Drain.

3 - Welder lessens the severity of Rack and Ruin.  One of the targets will get welded out, keeping an Artifact on the board, and if the other one was really important, you can get it back on the board.

4 - I've visited a family of Goblin Welders before, and one thing I noticed about their culture is that they like to play with Tangle Wire when they're bored.

5 - Smokestack becomes a real threat to the opponent, since you can up the soot to two and then weld it out after the opponent's upkeep.

6 - He helps you beat Tinker, which is big card in the Slaver matchup, and another enemy of Stax that I didn't mention before (another reason Tangle Wire needs to be in the deck).

7 - Welders are always at work, even in the early game.  First turn Welders do more than protect you from countermagic, they also make mana and allow you to play more threats.  People seem to forget this all the time.

So, I could probably keep going, but I think you get the idea.  Are Goblin Welders just "training wheels?"  Maybe, but if they make the deck win, then why not play with them.  1 mana bombs that win me the game are pretty good in my opinion.

Now, I believe Kevin did not run Welders because his deck ran less artifacts than previous Stax players.  Also, his deck takes Stax in a strange direction, which is okay.  My deck is pretty different from the traditional list too, and I can't wait to test it out in a big setting.

We'll be there (all two of us), and if I leave without at least one game of Type 4, I'm going to break things.  =)

I look forward to this - it's gonna be good to see you all again and the practice will be huge!

     ~Mark B.

I have not given up on Stax since the restriction of Trinisphere.  I tested my first draft of a 1 Trinisphere list last night and I liked it a lot.

The way I see it, there are three cards that you need to be able to deal with in order to make Stax win.  Those three cards are Mana Drain, Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall, and Goblin Welder.

Workshop decks have always been able to race Mana Drain for the most part, but the threat is still there, and if any of the 3 or 4 mana spells get countered with Drain, you will probably lose the game unless your hand is very strong.  Stopping Mana Drain, or at least preventing early Drains is usually the first goal of Stax.

Mass Artifact bouncers are a problem, naturally.  Rebuild is very dangerous in particular because of the built in ability to up the caster's storm by 4 or 5 while wiping Stax's board of threats EOT.  However, I think more people will start boarding in Hurkyl's since the use of Sphere of Resistance will make Rebuild a bit more expensive.  Against combo, this is the card that you need to fight against.  The rest of Stax's deck is pretty good against combo strategies.

And lastly, Goblin Welder.  This little guy can wreck Stax's game in many ways.  Usually, the opponent's Welders won't touch his own graveyard, but will mess with all the lock components Stax plays.  In particular, Smokestack becomes uselss against him.

Thus, I have been working on a Stax list that fights those three cards, and I would never cut Tangle Wire from the deck.  Despite what people say or think, Chalice of the Void is just not that good.  Goblin Welder is also amazing and I would not run a list without him.  His other 1 mana friend, Gorilla Shaman, is also a house and needs to be in the deck.

Once I test a bit more with my newest list (post restriction), I'll share it with people, but I don't want to put something out there until I am sure it actually works.  I'm just sharing my thoughts on the weaknesses of Stax that I've discovered through contstant playing of the deck for the past two or three months.

TPS and Dragon are not as slow as one might think though.  Dragon does not even run Dark Ritual, so I believe it'll be around for the long haul.  Also, TPS and Dragon had favorable matchups against Trinisphere decks, so they may not be the combo decks of choice anymore.  Or, because they had room to devote slots to fighting Trinisphere and other artifact lock components, they can now put more effort into fighting against control decks, which will make them even more deadly and "unfun."

I don't see Rituals dominating the format in the future, but I can see people bitching about them, as people are already speculating.  I still think that Sphere of Resistance combined with mana denial components can beat combo, no denying that, but I think that the lack of a consistant Trinisphere draw means that Workshop decks will have a much worse matchup against control decks.

Type 1 is supposed to be a deadly format, and we all know that.  I think secretly every Magic player wants to play Vintage, but is not ready to commit to the dollar investment or the savage brokenness of the format.  Sometimes, a player will buy some power, go to a tournament, and then lose to something he had no idea was out there, like Trinisphere.  Naturally, the first thing he will do is bitch, moan, and complain - maybe to the DCI - and perhaps stop playing Vintage.  The question the community needs to ask themselves is "do we need those kind of players in our beloved format?"

Sure, we want the Vintage community to grow (and it obviously has, since the price of Vintage staples has more than doubled in price over the past two years), but we want the players to be accepting of the fact that brutal things happen in the format.  If you are not "man enough" to play against Trinispheres, then you shouldn't be playing Vintage.

I agree with your thoughts on the differences between those big cards, but I still have to say that I will not be happy with the format being dominated by Mana Drains.

If you think about it, the format has always been dominated by Mana Drains to some extent.  It has always been Mana Drains decks and decks that can compete with Mana Drain.  Unfortunately for the rest of the cards in Type 1, the decks that can compete with Mana Drain are so powerful and fast (they have to be to win before UU stops them) that other decks have also been unable to surface and compete.  The fact that the Dragon combo, the Tendrils combo, quick Tangle Wires, or the dreaded Mana Drain will completely wreck their game plan means that many decks just won't work.

But I am okay with there being a couple of Mana Drain decks, a couple of Ritual decks, a couple of Workshop decks (with Trinisphere), and a couple of Bazaar decks.  I didn't see any problem with the diversity of the format - in fact, I thought it was the most fun Type 1 has been in a long time.

In the future, if Mana Drain comes to be the dominant deck, which is most certainly should end up doing, it will still be fun because we dedicated players will always find the game fun.  However, I fear that the diversity we had a month ago will disappear and it won't be as interesting as it is today.

Perhaps it was the people that lose to Trinisphere that complain about it being "unfun" as the article puts it.  They want their decks to dominate and be unstoppable and Trinisphere is the one card that just happens to wreck them.  Of course it's "unfun" for them.

Good players with good decks can win under Trinisphere all the time, and remember that Trinisphere only steals one game in the match if any, and every deck usually wins one match due to its brokenness.

Thanks Purple Hat for doing a good job saying a lot of what I was thinking while reading JDizzle's post.

One other thing, though.  Justin, I never ever said that playing against Trinisphere is fun.  Restricting cards for "fun factor" would be ridiculous.  I don't see how a combo player can say "It's not fun, so it should be restricted."  Just because I play with it and would like to see it unrestricted immediately does not mean I think it's fun.  =)

Dark Rituals create a game where it says "Force of Will or no?"  Trinisphere creates a game where it says "Do you have ample land to reach a point where you can destroy my permanents or return them to my hand?"  There are oftem more land cards in a deck than Force of Wills, and Shop decks give you turns to find them.

Again, I repeat, the best two decks (TPS and Slaver) play a lot of basics and ways to find them, and Wasteland does not affect them.  Please stop saying that all you do against Stax is hope your land won't get Wasted.  The other thing you need to keep in mind is that Stax relies on playing first more so than other decks because it can lose to multiple Moxen openings really fast.

Just out of curiosity, Justin, why are you against Trinisphere's restriction?  It appears you are glad it's no longer in the way of you comboing people out turn 1, as your quote says.

     ~Mark B.

Well, I actually posted that hand and I should have been clearer - if you are on the draw, would you keep that hand?  The land issue is not something that concerns me that much, considering I will see 8 cards in the first two turns.  What concerns me is that combo decks, while not winning on turn 1 every time, will win on turn 2 if they are pressed to win before I have UU up.

I don't think I'm assuming too much when I say TPS can combo you out with two land in play.  It can, and other combo decks can do it with just 1 land in play.  If I'm playing with Trinispheres, they just wait until they have three land in play, Rebuild me, and then go off.