why exactly are meloku or frantic search good in this deck? yeah, they untap or return lands to your hand, but not in a way that is profitable. frantic search just untaps the lands you spent to cast it, so you net no mana, and you are down a card. meloku returns a land, but at a cost of 1 mana, so when you replay it you are just getting back the land you already had untapped. you net a 1/1 flier but is that really relevant?

also not understanding why chronatog is any good. you have no way to punish your opponent for taking an extra turn, so you are getting what - attacking once with a 4/5 who then gets tapped and doesn't untap? seems like a dead card to me. if you had smokestack or some other way to punish your opponent, this would make a lot more sense, but you aren't that type of deck. at least with time vault, you profit in that you get a time walk turn later when you can actually take advantage of it, so more copies of that might make sense.

i think tezz belongs maindeck, along with a seat of the synod for him to untap. he untaps mana under stasis just like garruk, and he also searches out your combo win. don't forget, the turn you play tezz he can search out a mox or seat of the synod to pay for stasis (for 0 loyalty, even!), then next turn he can untap it and pay for stasis forever. not that you will generally want to do this when you could just get time vault and win, but i digress...

/agree with wafflesauce - chain of vapor definitely warrants a slot in your deck. it is a versatile answer to most threats your opponent may have, and also works deliciously with your stasis.

-2 chronatog -1 meloku -1 frantic search -1 island

+1 tezz +3 chain of vapor +1 seat of synod (possibly sol ring as well?)

the point is, mystical has ALREADY affected the number of cards in their hand. it is done. over. unchangable. doesn't matter now. it is (almost) EXACTLY the same as if they had mulliganed. if they mulliganed and then cast ancestral, would you be less likely to counter it? how is that any different?


only incidentally so. the only thing that REALLY matters is, there is a spell on the stack that is going to draw your opponent three cards. do you want your opponent to draw three cards? you can counter it, in which case he is +0, or you can let it resolve, in which case he is +3. whether he was ALREADY at -1 due to mystical is essentially irrelevant. his two outcomes then would be -1 if you counter, +2 if you let it resolve, but it is still a 3 card swing.


nobody is arguing it's a good play. if mystical + ancestrall were combined into one card, that cost UU and drew you two cards, then you would be right - it would not be as important to counter it. but they are seperate entities. you can let the mystical be cast, let your opponent be down a card, then when he tries to recover by casting ancestral, you counter that and crush his dreams. if anything, countering ancestral after a mystic is BETTER, because your opponent has wasted all that tempo and a card and gained nothing, AND put one of the best cards in his deck into his graveyard.

let's say that your above statement is correct, and online classic is a combo player's wet dream. do you realize that would just prove your previous post wrong? you were claiming that the format was just vintage, but here you show how it is WAY MORE busted than vintage, playing 4-ofs that should be restricted.


right, because necro and LED are the cards that define vintage. mana drain? bazaar? workshop? no, those don't define vintage at all. how silly of me to think otherwise.

you are arguing that online classic is a busted degenerate format, which may be the case, but even if it is it looks nothing like today's vintage.

it's a lot more like a bastardized version of legacy.


you just touched on part of the reason why you are wrong. yes, urza's broken block is not in the format. you know what else is not in the format? fast mana. no moxes, no lotus, no sol ring, no mana vault. know what else is not in the format? bazaar of baghdad and mishra's workshop. vintage is so ridiculous because not only do you have a ton of ridiculous spells, but you can consistently cast them way earlier than you should be able to. no artifact mana means the game is slower, and you have to wait and cast those spells when they are less auto-win. lion's eye diamond is a lot less awesome with no yawg will, too.


as i stated above, online classic is SIGNIFICANTLY different from legacy or vintage. can you not see how artifact mana makes vintage so much different? you would have a better argument saying it is a legacy clone, but even there you have some noticable differences. so many cards are still missing. no bazaar for dredge. no mishra's workshop. no land tax. no timetwister or wheel of fortune. there's no freaking mana drain, man!! MANA DRAIN!!

i really don't see how you can argue that online classic is anything but its own unique format.

your math is interesting. here's mine.

their turn: orchard, play oath.
your turn: play tinker, get colossus.
their turn: oath up hellkite, attack you for 8.
your turn: attack for 13 with colossus + token
their turn: oath up akroma, attack for 14. you are dead.

how exacty does colossus race again?

actually, you can just play explosives for 0. It will come into play with no counters, and you can cack the chalice.

needle stops bazaar, welder, fetchlands, wasteland/stripmine, moxmonkey, LOA, hell it can even stop a fanatic from cacking bob.

i won't say it's better than null rod, but it definitely deals with a lot of important things that null rod can't.

chain of vapor and hurkyl's recall are both fine cards that deal with DSC, as well as being useful in general. or you could try echoing truth, which would be nice vs zombie tokens if you expect to see ichorid.

disclaimer, i dont play vintage, i just lurk these forums for fun.... so maybe this is a terrible idea, or maybe not. i'm just looking to start a discussion here.

i saw this shop deck using black vise and howling mine, liked the idea but thought walking archive and ebony owl netsuke were awful

i saw this deck abusing commandeer and loved it

so when i saw this card spoiled i figured maybe it's worth building a deck around. here are two possibilities off the top of my head.

method 1: blue cards and pitch counters
(yes, i know that arcane lab and spheres are kind of redundant.... they just give you different ways to accomplish the same thing, keeping cards in your opponent's hand. lab also feeds pitch counters.)

start the ball rolling
4 font of mythos (4 mana artifact, each player draws 2 during draw step)

then some mana:
4 mishras workshop
4 ancient tomb
1 strip mine
islands, moxes and stuff

now stop what your opponent is doing
4 force of will
2 commandeer
2 misdirection
2 remand (or maybe arcane denial or negate?)

some disruption
4 arcane lab
4 chalice of the void
4 sphere of resistance

good cards
1 ancestrall recall
1 brainstorm

kill you
4 black vise
1 tinker
1 DSC

after enough mana, that's 50something cards, with 17 blue spells.... what else might go in there, probably either card draw or another win condition? what shouldn't have made the cut?

method 2: rule of law, ethersworn canonist, and glowrider

maybe the deck can't support blue cards, maybe attacking for 2 is better

being able to cast spells is good
4 mishras workshop
4 ancient tomb
1 strip mine
plains, moxes and stuff

no spellcasting
4 rule of law
4 ethersworn canonist
4 glowrider
4 meddling mage (or aven mindcensor)
2 orims's chant (or abeyance, whatever floats your boat)
4 thorn of amethyst
4 chalice of the void
1 trinisphere

give you lots of cards, take lots of damage
4 font of mythos
4 black vise
2 howling mine

after filling out the mana, that's almost 60 cards.

so, can either of these be made into viable tier 2 decks? or is it a lost cause?

so you should definitely be playing this newly spoiled card

probably -4 walking archive +4 ~this

for those too lazy to click:

Font of Mythos (4)
Artifact (R)
At the beginning of each player's draw step, that player draws additional two cards.

without having actually played the deck, i am really not a fan of the walking archive or ebony owl netsuke. both are just worse versions of the originals. i think you are better off with more disruption in those slots. maybe smokestack or pithing needle. it's a shame that there is no good way to fit ethersworn canonist into the deck as someone earlier suggested, because it would be such an amazing addition to what you are trying to do.

call me crazy, but have you thought about trying to sneak rishadan port into here? You could cut mikokoro and 1 owl or archive for 2 ports. there are few things more satisfying than saying 'port you' during your opponent's upkeep.