Soly,

Congrats on the Mox win yesterday. 

Are you actually running more red in you mana base now?

I've been testing against my Ichorid deck since it's going to break the format and all (Just kidding,  I don't have any other T1 decks put together at the moment).

What were the match-ups you faced in the tournament?

Catch you later,

Dodger

Soly,

I've been playing around with your list, but I have a few questions for ya.

After reading your opening post is seems to me you have two preferred opening hands: 

Hand one:   Some mixture of Rituals, duress, confidant, mana sources, etc.

Hand two: Some mixture of Rituals, tendrils, mana sources, etc.

For Hand one:  How often do you mulligan before you get the hand you want? It seems to me that this hand is the key to keeping the deck rolling? 

Of the 10 games I gold fished,  the majority of them left me wishing I had a duress/thoughtseize.

Have you thought of upping the duress affects to 6,7, or 8?


Also, Can you post an Intuition Tendrils list so I can get an idea of the differences? 

Thanks,

Dodger

I tried to find the updated nether void primer that used to be on this site. But when you link to it it just says there is an error.

I printed it off at one time to run in a tournament, I'll try to get you the last list Zherbus had in Nether Void update #3.

As I remember it was alot like sui black, but ran voids and deeds.


Roland

After reading your thread, I threw a deck similiar to yours together.

It includes: diabolic edict, chainer's edict, and innocent blood. 

In play testing against most creature based decks, I often got more wins by beating them with their own creatures.  The phage win is more of a secondary condition.

Is this what you have found?  Or am I playing the deck wrong?

Roland

Here is my delraich deck.

4x Skulllclamp (or night's whisper for legacy)
4x Diabolic intent
4x Dark Ritual
4x Razorjaw Oni
4x Darkest Hour

4x Delraich
4x Sengir Autocrat
4x Slith Bloodletter
4x Grinning Demon
4x Stone Throwing devils

4x Crystal Vein
16 X Swamp

It needs alot of improvement, but it fun for casual play.

Roland

The problem is that we all spend large quantities of money on the cards we use to build decks. This causes us to become emotionally attached to our cards because in many cases we put in long hours of work to pay for them. 

When someone says "This deck sucks, or that deck is washed up!" We take offense to it because now we have to invest more time and money into another deck. 

The other problem is the lack of sportsmanship among the type 1 players. (This is based on my experiences in my own area. So don't flip out.)  Some of the players in my area get pissed off when my nether void deck stomps the current hot deck in type one.  (I'm not saying nether void is better than any deck in the current metagame, it's not) They simply can't accept this fact, and start to complain and make excuses.

As far as best decks go, you can get all logical an calculate the percentages, etc.  You can playtest until your blue in the face, but if you and your deck can't perform when the time comes it really doesn't matter what you play.

The debate isn't whether or not your deck is better, it's your play skill. It's knowledge of the field and most importantly your ability to guess what you opponent will do next. And the ability to guess consistently in order to win.  Not to mention the 9 million other factors you have to take into consideration.

The fact is we need to be mature enough to step back and say " This isn't personal this is about Magic!" We need to realize this is about finding the best solution to the current metagame, and focus on that.   We need to be open to everyone's ideas and not jump down their throats when they suggest something off the wall.

Furthermore, You win some, you loose some. On any given day anybody could win the tournament. No matter how much preparation is involved, it's all in the cards. If the luck of the draw isn't on your side, then you probably won't win. Accept that fact maturely and move onto the next game.

Just some thoughts,

Roland

If you can't deal with artifacts, you might as well switch from negators to hunted horrors.

Use exngineered explosives and powder keg along with wretch.

This allows you to eliminate your problem with chalice of the void and go unpowered. You will kill 3 birds with one stone. Eliminate the tokens, moxen, and chalices. 

You  don't have to splash a color, and you get a 7/7 trampler that fits the vial curve.  You can also add in the coretapper because he's kinda cute.

What it comes down to is deciding weather you want to:
 1. Control what your opponent can play
or
2.    Wipe out his permanents when they are in play

Right now you can eliminate his hand, but you can't control his permanents once they are in play.

Roland

Why not drop the negator for Hunted horror?

You could the add engineered explosives and powder kegs to kill the tokens. (Not to mention moxen!)

 Also what about coretapper?  Isn't the goal of the deck to beatdown as quickly as possible?

Roland

Negator is terrible.

Play hunted horror and engineered explosives.

Add some aether vial and jitte to give your deck some potential.

Roland

@ Smmenen

Why don't you just have Star City Games do what Gamingetc.com did?

They printed their own version of playable proxies. 

Talk to the guys at SCG and come up with a list of the cards you feel are required to be competitive.  (I'm not just talking power, I mean drains, workshops, etc.)

Then have them talk to a printing company. Sell the proxies for $1.00 a piece and make them generic enough that you can avoid copyright laws.  Have someone come up with a cool picture and see about having foils versions.

As long as everyone playing is clear about what the proxies represent and look like there shouldn't be any problem.

This gives starcity a little money and everyone gets to avoid the dreaded plains with marker scribbled on it.

In order to do this you will probably have to start a thread to see which cards should be printed in the set of proxies. Just remember you can't please everyone. However, with your knowledge of the format you should be able to come up with a list. This would go a long way in helping your cause.

I own a set of Gamingetc proxies, and they aren't as bad as many vintage players make them out to be. (THe foil lotus is pretty cool too!)

Just a thought.

Roland

It's amazing how type 1 players think magic revolves around them. Type 1 players aren't the only people who buy magic cards, and most of the ones at my local card shop are so tight they squeek.  Wizards doesn't make money off Type 1 players because you can't get most type one staples in packs any more. However, if they reprinted power even type 1 players would buy packs. Which would be good for business.


 Wizards has already dealt with the issue of Reprints, it's called making legacy a PTQ or Grand Prix. If you couldn't figure it out type one is Wizards barrel of mistakes. In the development of legacy, they have eliminated almost ever card that limits a player from playing in the format because they can't shell out $5000.00.  Now they are printing cards to fit their format like the new duals. Soon they will leave vintage in the dust.  No proxies, no power, No problems!


Legacy also helps the local card shops. Now they are able to sell more of the cards that enter their store because they don't have to worry about being limited to type 1 staples. Legacy is a business win for both card shops and wizards.

If you play Type 1 realize this: Your format is dying, and if legacy takes off your cards will drop in price. Reprints will then be your only hope!

In the end it's all about business. Wizards is about making decisions that keep them in business, and that is why they have fomats like standard and legacy.

Feel free to bash me all you want. Just remember it's all about getting lots of people to buy packs of magic cards and play magic. Type 1 just doesn't do that. Enough said.

Roland

Actually, on the whole reprint idea. If we speculate for a minute, you might start seeing reprints of power cards that give you options like the new duals from Ravnica. 

For example:  Painful recall= look at the top three cards  of you library and put them back on top of your library in any order. You may pay 1 life per card you wish to keep in your hand.

Keep in mind the  painful reprint is automatically restricted to one per deck. This eliminates proxies and gives all players access to the power nine effects at a cost.  Players with Power retain the value of their cards, new players get less expensive power.
 
You could even go so far as to say. You can have either an ancestrall recall or a "painful recall", but not both.

This is just speculation, but after seeing the latest duals it is pretty clear that wizards can do a whole lot better than chrome mox when it comes to trying to fix power mistakes. Or get more people into the format. 


I'm probably just full of it, so take these thoughts for what they are worth.

Roland

If you look in the type 1 open forum there is a "Black fish " primer. This will be you best bet at an inexpensive  yet viable suicide black type deck. ( I think it's on the 2nd or 3rd page of the forum)

Dark ritual = one time shot that is why people dislike it.
The Black fish deck uses aether vial and ritual to accelerate mana.

You will also need graveyard removal and some sort of draw engine.

Just some thoughts,

Roland

I think that comparing these two formats is like apples to oranges. This is just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.

To say that Vintage is "Swingy" is correct. The fact that all of the most powerful decks run the same cards (most of the appear on the restricted list) is correct.  It seems to me that this comes down to the whole purpose of the restricted list in vintage. If you don't have one, the games are basically based on the role of the dice to see who goes first. If you have a bunch of cards that can only play as one per deck, you make the chances of seeing those cards  random or "swingy". Yet alot less "swingy" than who gets to play first.

What hurts vintage is that if you want to eliminate this, you need to change restricted list to banned list. Which is going to piss off alot of people! Or you need to create a format like Legacy and back it with a Grand Prix or Pro Tour (can't remember which one it is at the moment).

The other thing that hurts Vintage is once you have a problem it's harder to fix because the card pool is so diverse.  Which is why things get restricted.

This leads to type two. As far as skill intensive goes, it could be considered just as skill intensive because of the card pool. It's smaller so you have to pick and choose you  "tech". But you could also argue it's less skill intensive because you don't have as many cards. When talking about net decking, I have played people in both formats that don't completely understand the deck they are playing. This worked out in my favor. Just because you own the cards doesn't mean you know how to play the deck. If one of my friends picked up magic and started playing, I tell him to get as many cards from the restricted list  as he can afford. Simply because we all know they are powerful. Using this logic, is Type 1 really more skill intensive than type 2? It really comes down to which format you favor.

You could also say that type 2 is a little bit more controllable than vintage. For example,  some one said getting the first jitte means you most likely win and requires more luck than skill.  However, in saviors they printed Manriki- Gusari  aka "Jitte Killer". It isn't legendary, and  I think it requires less mana  to equip.  This should neutralize the effect of jitte on the format.

The cardpool issue is a can of worms. Because you have to consider prices and popularity of the format.  Depending on your point of view this gets messy, and could go in favor of either format.

I think what we need to keep in mind is that to a certain degree, the game of magic is "Swingy". It depends on what you draw and when you draw it. For example, when you do/don't draw mana for 5 turns this has an effect on you game (this has more to do with shuffling than it does play skill).

In my opinion, comparing type1 to type 2 is a toss up. At the end of the debate it comes down to personal preference.

Once again, I'm not a professional magic player so take my thoughts for what they are worth.

Roland

@Jackpot

Braids is a great card. But you are missing two key cards:  Crucible of Worlds and Myr servitor.

They have great synergy with Braids.

@ Demarki

Negator is a double edged sword! Anything that deals 3 damage will mean game for you. Especially if you dark ritual and first turn negator.
It won't take 4 turns for a burn deck to deal enough damage to the negator to clear your board.  This doesn't even take into account anydeck playing white knight.

Although Negator seems like a great deal, it won't take long for people to learn how to deal with it in your area. When they do, you'll have a tough time winning with it.

If you want this deck to be fast aggro, then you need to add the following:

4xDistress
4xUnmask
4xhatred
4x Dauthi slayer
4x Dauthi horror

Use the discard to eliminate any counterspells or creature removal, and then play hatred with the slayer. Nothing puts early pressure on the table like a second or third turn win!

Roland

Don't cut any. Why?

If you mainly play casual the 61st card isn't going to slow you down enough to hurt you.

Yeah, I know this breaks the 60 card rule. However, using a deck similiar to you build I have beaten control slaver a few times at local tournaments. The deck I used had 61 cards.  (The players had proxied the power, but were not hard core T1 players. They also weren't very happy about losing to my sub-par deck).

I would run both. Just because I think you need all the search tech you can get. I can't tell you how many times I've needed the Necropotence and it wasn't there.   

If you have access to the cards for the other draw engines I posted earlier, give them a try. This morning,  I was playtesting against a variant of  "black fish " with my B/G Void Deck.  During once of the games I was drawing 3 cards a turn off Gravestorm + withered wretch combo.

Hope this helps,

Roland

It doesn't matter! Why? because as we tried to tell you before you have no real draw engine. 
1x Necropotence & 1x yag will doesn't equal a draw engine. Why? because you only have 1 of each card and you only run two tutor like cards. 

Note:
Necropotence X4 = powerhouse draw engine (not legal in type 1)
Necropotence X1 with few tutors = draw engine neutered by restriction!

What does your deck do if you don't get any tutors, or necropetence or will?  It top decks and loses to faster decks.

At least with night's whisper or scrying you can run more copies of each card.

 Hint:  More copies = more chances to get and draw cards.

To conclude you need to change the draw engine of the deck. If you choose not to, you need to incorporate both vampiric tutor and demonic consultation. 
Roland

.


Since none of these tournaments are sanctioned by Wizards. Do proxy rules really matter? Shouldn't they be up to the TO & judges at each event?

 If the judges and the tournament organizer can agree that a card with "Lotus" on it represents a Black Lotus. What is the big deal? 

If all participants are informed about the proxies and what they look like, no one should complain.  The key to the proxy argument is clear communication between all people involved in the tournament. 

 If I were a judge I would accept the proxies being sold by gamingetc, because once established that each card is represented by the proxy no one has the right to complain that they don't know what the card is.

Roland

Speaking of MBC Draw engines here are a few:

1. Necropotence , Night's Whisper or Phyrexian arena + Jitte+ creature with flying, shadow, etc.
2. Gravestorm +  any of the following: withered wretch, nezumi Graverobber, tormad's crypt, skullsnatcher, carrion beetles, etc.
3. Skullclamp + myr servitor+ Night's whisper (It's not completely black, but it works pretty well).

These are some of the draw engines I've been toying around with for black.  As much as I like playing a version similiar to yours, these  non-traditional draw engines have worked well for me. They aren't bullet proof, but no deck really is. These are alot cheaper than adding chains to your deck (Not that chains is bad, if I had access to 4 I'd use them).

Just some thoughts,

Roland

Don't forget that SCG is a business that sells magic cards. These tournaments help build them a reputation of being a great place to get magic cards. This can only help their business. Sometimes you have to give a little to get a little more.

I hope they keep hosting. I 'd like to attend one when I get a little more time.

Roland

Just in case anyone is interested, I was visiting another magic website and found an article regarding a site selling proxies for a buck a piece.

In my opinion, the artwork is pretty cool,  and for about $13.00 with shipping I got a set of power 9 proxies.

I hate scribbling on a random basic land, and I don't have the funds to for real power so these will do. They are generic enough that you can tell what they are, and still avoid copyright issues. This is still more than Wizards has ever considered doing.

As far as proxies go 10-15 is fine by me. I like the fact that I now have a shot at being somewhat competitive. From a person who doesn't own Power, I think not allowing proxies is penalizing people for not being around during the early years of Magic. 

Just thought I'd give my two cents. If you want the site, PM me and I'll let you know what it is.

Roland

With the core of the deck revolving around jitte/chalice/vial/ negator.

Does this deck lose to null rod?

Does it need a decent way to deal with artifacts/ enchantments? 

Just wanted to hear your thoughts.

Roland

@ Demarki

Actually, I think Zombone might be on to something with "Gravestorm".  With the current metagame relying on graveyard manipulation more than ever running withered wretch is a must. 

If you are playing against control slaver, tog, any deck with crucible of worlds, you don't want them to have any cards in the graveyard.   Gravestorm is your answer.  I'd rather drop the wretch, skullnatcher, or graverobber, and just start removing cards.  Why pay the life if you don't have to?

Your next best draw engine is phyrexian arena, but once again your  paying life. I also agree that restricting necropotence was the equivalent of banning it.  It just doesn't give you the same consistent affect. 


Also, You do realize with gravestorm you can draw a card for every copy you have in play even if your opponent has no cards in his graveyard.  If he can't or doesn't want to  you draw a card. That's pretty good card advantage.

@zombone
I like your build. I play alot of black variations and your draw engine (In my opinion) is the best one I've seen yet.

Roland

@ VGB:  
I just found and read the article. I agree with what your saying. I still think guidelines for restriction should be clearly posted. It's just so much easier to quash complaints and justify your decisions if you have something written down. You can always revise them as the game evolves.  It might just help the R&d department when they create new cards. Use it as a checklist during play testing.

@ Dozer
Nice definition.  In your opinion:

Should interactivity be based on the number of chances a player has to respond to his opponent?

or

Should interactivity be based on the number of spells a player can resolve against his opponent?


Roland

I Just Skimmed over some of the replies in this post.  I must agree with Rakso.  I think the DCI did open up a can of worms.

They have no clear way to define how restriction of certain cards will be handled.  In many of these forums with discussion of this topic alot of people complained!  In my opinion, alot more tournament players with power complained than kids at the local shop.  It was these players with money invested in high priced cards that forced the issue of restriction with trinisphere.   Because they were frustrated with the fact that they had paid so much money for cards that could be nullified by the average kid at the card shop or an unpowered player.

 I don't play with a lot of power and loved this fact about trinisphere.  I played a nether Void deck for fun that ran 4 trinisphere, it gave me adequate time to get set up.

In my opinion, they also weighed the facts. Alot more people like decks that run workshop, mana drain, and force of will-  control slaver.  Stax isn't as popular so they were ok with weakening the deck.

As far as interactive and unfun. The best and worst parts of the game are being able to shut down your opponent. T1 uses the most powerful cards and broken plays are going to happen.  T1 players boast about skill, so spend some time working around trinisphere. It's not unstoppable!

Lastly, from an administrative standpoint. They messed up big time. They let the players bully them into restricting a card.  In their position they should have a set criteria clearly defined (and visible for all players to read) that states the steps leading up to restriction. If players know the process and the card meets all criteria. Then restirict it.  It has to be clear cut and straight across the board.  Opinion or complaints should have no place in the process.

These are just some thoughts. Take them for what they are worth. They aren't meant to be taken personally. I'm just trying to contribute to the thread.

Thanks,
Roland

You are correct. The last example did make their case.

I edited the post.  

I was looking at trinisphere from the perspective of someone without power & workshops.  

In which case  dark ritual + trinisphere on first turn does slow down the tempo of the game.

I still don't think trinisphere should be restricted.

Sorry, about the confusion

Roland

Type 1 is about what happens in the first few turns.

The reason you want trinisphere restricted is that it ruins the tempo of your first turns.  Possibly giving an unpowered  opponent the time to  "pound you".

If I have no power this does bridge the gap. Because all I want to do if I have no power is slow you down enough to get something going. I might not win, but I got to try something.

Try playing a player who has power  with a deck that has no power.   You can watch while he "pounds you". There is no interaction here either.

The point is with an unpowered deck, Trinisphere slows down your tempo & puts your expensive cards  on the same level as someone without them.  Maybe it's the guy with four dark rituals & four trinisphere in his deck.

If wizards didn't want to slow down the tempo of games they would unrestrict the power nine and reprint them.  (We all know they will never reprint them).  

Trinisphere is an example of their (Wizards of the Coast) attempt to slow down the game for the people without power.

Just thought I would clarify my thoughts,

Roland

I think you need to look at this another way. I've been around magic for seven years now.

Since I started playing everyone told me about power nine and the banned & restricted list.  

The reason for the banned & restricted list was because the unrestricted  Power nine equals little interaction between players.

From what I understand Wizards doesn't want games to end after the first or second turn. The whole point of Magic is interaction between players.

With the invention of Trinisphere, Wizards made parts of the power nine just another mana producer. (Not to mention numberous other cards on the resticted list that cost less than three mana to play)  They leveled the playing field for players who don't have Power.  You can't rely on building a deck  that finishes the game within the first five turns.

If someone plays trinisphere  you'd be better off playing lands instead of Moxes & black lotus.  

Trinispere isn't unbeatable. All you need is three mana to play any spell you want.  Besides there is enough artifact hate around to deal with it.

Do I own a set of the "power nine" ?  No I can't bring myself to pay that much for nine pieces of cardboard.  As long as they allow 5 or 10 proxy tournaments I have no need to purchase power.

Do I own four trinisphere? Yes ,I got them on ebay for $10.00 after shipping.

Restricting dark Ritual? Why?  It's Black.      99% of the people in the magic community claim black to be the worst color of magic.  Not to mention  there are very few decks that play it.

I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find several ways around to get around trinisphere.

Just some food for thought,

Roland

The witches stick around assuming two things:

1. Your opponent is not playing any bounce spells in the deck.  In which case he will bounce and wait to counter it.

2. Your opponent has no cards in hand. Which is unlikely because one of blue's strengths is card drawing.

Some Fish decks run echoing truth to take care of this problem.

Roland

I am a fanatic player of black. But I have to side with Necrologia on this one.  

I have a un-tested version of "fish" and at worst it takes 1 of 3 games from a version of Nether void pretty similiar to the one listed on the primer page by "OS-Vegeta". At best it goes 3-0. That is a deck not containing all the cards from a well constructed version of fish.

My Pox deck has a much harder time and it's been constructed from what little threads there are on the topic.

The best play you can hope for opening hand is to:

dark Rit+duress+hymm.
 
If they force it, you just got rid of two cards. If they daze it, not so much.

I had to dust off my cuombajj witches and look at the text. Not a card I would want running around with a negator. Anything that allows your opponnet to choose=not good for you.

I'm not trying to be mean or harsh, but black has limitations. It's best left to splashing a color to deal with  artifacts & enchantments. Also if you want to get rid of lots of creatures use infest  or pernicious deed.

The top type one players and alot of the top people in these forums know what they are talking about.  They wouldn't tell you something that wasn't true.

Net decking has also become popular and alot of kids in cards shops around the world are building fish decks because they are cheap. And they win!

I have beaten some of the top decks in today's metagame (with my Void Deck), but more so because of bad draw or lesser skill than myself. I'm not bragging, I'm just telling you my experiences. Take them for what you will.

I would choose fish over suicide black for tournament play.

Roland