@MoxLotus

Ok, Yes I have been playing both TPS and ToG a lot and also for the Prision matchupp, If the Prision deck are running a complementary set of Sphere of Resistance & Chalice of the Void those two decks have nothing to go for in that matchupp, ToG has as I translate your view a good shot because you are mostly playing Trinisphere and put your trust to it, and yes then you get the results you mention, because as you noted ToG has a lot of cards on three like you firstly mentioned with Cunning Wish & R&R), and Rebuild is the nutz against Prision, but that additional mana the Sphere of Resistance (or the more harder to do but still occur, CotV set to three) makes ToG lose hard in that matchupp, and I have been testing those decks, latest was TPS that I latest brought to a Black Lotus invite tourney where I won in Denmark back in December. In it I have been forced to play Hurkyl´s Recall in the board to try to keep in front of that matchupp, and by that I don’t see it as a bad matchupp but that does not make it to a good one, but all decks are being distorted to try to handle Prision, with a usual of cards is 5 Basic lands, maindeck Rebuilds & more hate in the board.

So I agree ToG can handle Trinisphere good but I wasn’t so clear about what configuration of Prision I’m talking about and Trinisphere is not solely enough and in much sense weaker then Trinisphere in that particular matchupp, the same goes for decks that utilize Rebuild & other three mana answers.

I hope this gives some explanation why I have a different view about those matchupps.


@Smmemen

As I explained to MoxLotus can also be of value for you to get insight on why and more importantly how I get such opposing result compared to you and how our public opinion in this part of the world are the same as what I represent now. We have had a lengthy development of Prision Vs Combo and with the Mirrodin block Prision have the tools to choose from and enough to fight back so the decks that go to success are severely tilted and there is not much room for other more innovative decks in the format. Dark Ritual and Workshop takes up almost all the room (of those deck s that win tournaments).

//Regards
Kenny Öberg

Even supposing for a momen that Stax is a serious problem which you assert it to be (repeatedly), don't get your hopes up that Workshop will be restricted. It will likely never be. Trinisphere and Welder would both be restricted first.

Yes I agree that they will probibly hit Trinisphere before Workshop as its the most non-radical choise and will make a big impakt on the current hiding of playskills of Workshop-Trinisphere-Go, and also remove some of the low-interaktion aka "I Win games". But to say that it likley will never be restricted when the fact is that the abuse will be increased over time and I can with more certainty  claim that it will more likley be restricted. Cards have taken many years by the increasing synergy expanding card pool so that they have been re-evaluated and added to the restricted list. And just look what the Mirrodin block did, its fact not fiction.

"That hasn't occured anywhere else and outside of Sweden (if it has indeed occured there) is theorietcal elsewhere." -ask the Dutch look at your indication of the amerikan T8´s. I know Your meta is different (I was there and played a 100 person Vintage Sideevent with Staxs at worlds last summer) and I can sum it upp that you like more swinging with Juggs than dropping Smokestack and I think it goes against the overall opinion of this forum witch card is a better first turn drop. Workshop aggro works well to fight Staxs but the important point is it does that by also missuse Workshop/Trinisphere/Crucible, and is that healthy? -No.

You say/list those decks and claim they have a good matchupp against Staxs, to me a good matchupp is 60%+, and non Workshopd ecks aside CS.Slaver and ESG-dragon can proclaim those results. Unless the Staxs deck of yours are swinging with juggs that is.

had 8 games against stax and 10 against Tog in my primer. So by 10 selected games you see Prision as a good matchupp?, more important why do you think our result/opinion about this subject contradicts so much? It seems to me you take it on a personal level and view it as Amerikans Vs Swedes or something that way, I try to create a dialog, instead you try to puch down it like it was critisism to you, bring the subject to another level, we clearly have different opinions and I share my view, don´t be arrogant to it.

Edit: I know many swedes refer to "the swedish staxs" and so on I don´t discuss it as that view I mean Prision without Juggs and no Draw Sevens or Five colors and so on when I refer and I hope you dont mix my point of subject too much with just "swedish staxs" and how others that is not me present it, its just an example of a deck that abuse the "unholy" cards imo, and not something I proclaim to be vastly superior to all other builds but something that differ quite some from the amerikan builds of prision and are much more focused on being redudant.

TPS, Italian ToG do you and MoxLotus see Prision as a good matchupp? Do you proclaim results of  about and over 65% match win against it? Aswell the same with Dday-combo? Just because the odds is about close to even does not make it to a good matchupp,

I know other Workshop decks is good against Prision, you seem to see it as we proclaim Staxs to be some kind of "super ultra mega deck to play" my view and message is the abuse of Workshop and its companion even if its not that one single deck that uses it its a good example of how Prision is not healthy for the format. Aswell as Ritual is an example of abuse in TPS.

//Regards
Kenny Öberg

Hi.

Good read and you have intrigued me to make a reply.

"Lion's Eye Diamond is retarded because It a free real Black Lotus ("real" as in "with no draw back in a deck designed to abuse It"

I have to note that I agree fully with you that it´s all about deck design. Degnerate cards that have unique abilitys and drawbacks that are there to balance the cards power out are often found to be targetted of  abuse. We now by hard experience how degnerate mana acceleration are. Burning Academy was designed and based to neglate LED´s drawback and alike is Staxs designed to misuse Mishra´s Workshop to neglate its drawback. I like the comparsion of LED and Workshop because both power upp other broken spells to a critical mass (different play styles of the deck but my point remains) LED is of course more powerful then Workshop when it had a Yawgmoths Will assisting, and Staxs equivalent have to be settled as Trinisphere.

I know Burning Academy inside out and have also brought Staxs to much suceed in large tourneys and Workshop makes it so consistent that it is scary. I feel it is the same way LED did in Burning Academy that you can aggressivly mulligan to 6 and 5 without greater hesitation to get the embrace of Workshop (or LED in Burnings case). Trinisphere is one of those cards that utilise Workshop to a bah-roken degree and I have the opinion that it is something that is bad for a healthy development of Vintage.

You say you have played Staxs in 2 years and then claims: "And Stax is highly unconsistant, even if Crucible of Worlds helps a lot now. "
You think its "highly unconsistant" and that makes me to question your knowledge about that specifik area of the deck because its one of the most consistent decks out there and by agressive mulliganing you will find a much more consistent way to play the arcetype into an unconsistent state. Draw7´s in staxs lower its consistensy much like the same way Wheel of Fortune is bad in a burn deck.

Much arguments is that the metagame is healthy and we should not do anything at all but even if some finds this dependancy between Dark Ritual and Mishra´s Workshop fighting it out and conceal one another to be a game of balance I and many whom have experienced this for a long time (Dutch and Scandinavian people who have been early exposed) know this by fact it can not proceed as it is now.
If it not yet is so at you the metagame strides to where your choise of deck can be only of those decks tweaked to beat the "unholy trio of Workshop/Trinisphere/Crucible" or have enough maindeck cards that makes it more even, because no opposion without Workshop can say they see Staxs as a good matchuppas  all breaks at most around even.

The "unholy trio" is indeed in the upper tier aswell as above it and Vintage is a hard format to put down to analys as much numbers and info are hidden in the sea of brokeness that happens, you (as well as I) do by certain know from our playtesting of matchupps and decks, how many games you really have to test to get a accurate number of their odds Vs eachother odds (more then the double of what is needed for a specifik matchupp in Standard). But eventually the best deck makes its claim and as we had it early on here starting with the introduction of Mirrodin Block 1½ year ago we see the same have now begun to take place in the US and its effect are spreading more global witch I hope will enlightened an greater number of influential people.

I am not oblivious  about your view of the matter and respekt them and understand how you talk from your own perspektive of experience and I see a huge difference between mine that i think much about how it can be so unlikly opposed  and will seek more insight in this matter in this tread.

Regards
//Kenny Öberg

Hi, I'm the author of this article.

It's sorry that I can't read through all the replays now because i'm in San Fransisco to compete in Worlds and have no good (all are costly) internet connections.

I hope the subject is still alive next week. Because some arguments are pretty sad from obvious points of view of what I have seen. Because this has developed to a multi/subject thread and some good points dissapear in this maze of "comments".

I will read through the thread wholy as soon as I can and hope that before that people stay to the topic of disscution, becuase its a very interesting subject.

Regards
Kenny

Respond to them (with quotes, if you want) in a new thread. This one is spent.
-Jacob

Hi

I was the one who played this configuration of staxs and won this tournament.

The spellbombs in main deck where only to handle welders before sideboarding (in this particular Top8) and are usually 2 Chalice of the Void or alternate 2 regular spheres.

The lone sphere should switch for the 2nd Crucible witch are very powerful in this deck.

This deck magnify the importance of consistency and are in my opinion something who (if the Workshop didn't be a 160$ card) should be a more visible dominant deck of Typ1. So many games are determined on the raw power of Workshop and/or the power of Trinisphere.

One of the things I have wondered about are that why in the US (where proxy tournament are standard witch is not the case in Europe) players chose to play decks as Fish & Hulk witch is inferior to Staxs and both have a very bad match up against it.

In Sweden Workshopdecks are becoming more and more dominant and we have such a high number of workshops that I am starting to see a problem rising

Just some collective thoughts I have about this.

Regards
Kenny Öberg