Jotun Grunt   1W
   
Creature Giant Soldier
   
Cumulative upkeep-Put two cards in a single graveyard on the bottom of their owner's library. (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.)
4 / 4

I am seeing a lot of buzz around Jotun Grunt and I initially thought it was really niche card but it seems like a lot of people are considering it auto includes in WW and UW-fish decks. I am wondering how this card tends to play out against the typical land scape. Particularly, how many turns does it usually last. Do folks play the card as soon as they can or do they wait until they think they'd get more hits out of it? What decks does this card perform particulalrly well on and are there decks that you just can't get more than one attack off with? I imagine other weenie decks won't allow you to keep this guy alive for very long since they only really allow instants and sorceries to go to the yard.

Thanks,
-mike

I agree though I do wonder about the third situation where I suspend a card within the subgame and don't finish removing its counters. Maybe I never get the effect in the main game. I certainly don't get to continue its removal in future subgames. But do those counters stay on it? Does it just sit there forever? What happens if I wish for it? Would it lose its time counters then?

-mike

I am wondering how Shahrazad and Suspend interact. Let's say I suspend a card that gets five time counters when suspended. If I play Shahrazad immediately after would I remove a time counter during my first turn in the subgame or would that card be invisible to the subgame?

If I removed the last time counter in the subgame would the spell be played in the subgame?

If I were to suspend a card within a subgame but never complete the time-counter removal, would that card still have those time counters when I popped back up to the main game? If so would I continue the time-counter-removal process and end up playing that spell in the main game?

A friend of mine pointed me to a ruling which he has interpreted as a "no" to all three questions.

506.5. All objects in the main game and all cards outside the main
game are considered outside the subgame (except those specifically
brought into the subgame). All players not currently in the subgame
are considered outside the subgame.

Since "removed from game" is not the same as "outside the game" this would imply that these interactions do not work. Does anyone have an insight?

Thanks,
-mike

No way, man. It was printed in Revised.


Since when does Mono-U control not run a full set of power (Twister withstanding)? Last I checked the Mono-U control decks, back when it was winning games, were running all five moxen for spells like Ophidian, Mana Leak, and Energy Flux.

I think the decks that use Timetwister the best are aggro decks. It works fairly horribly in control decks simply because the goal of a control is to essentially destroy the resource that is your opponents opening hand. After counter wars are over and there are no cards of value on the board and your opponents hand is gone, you've won and then you search for Tinker. Starting over with a new hand is undoing all of the work.

In an aggro deck, it's a bit of a different story. If you're able to dump your hand onto the board very quickly I can think of nothing better than renewing that hand to start over. Against control it's at least a must counter. A deck that can run Timetwister effectively is Ravager/Affinity which dumps its hand very quickly. This deck is not tier 1, however, it's not because of it's use of Twister, it's just to easily hatable.

Definitely not going to see play and the answer is simple. There are spells out there for UU, rather than UR, that just plain old counter. And there are pretty much no situations where copying the spell is better than countering. Sure the are some. If he bounces your fish dude and he has a DSC on the board or something but this is rare. In the vast majority of cases the copy effect is at best as good as countering. Like Ancestral Recall, Tinker (if you have DSC too), etc. But really, you can just counter these things at an easier casting cost for propability = 1. So this card is certainly not going to see type1 play. It is, however, a totally awesome card that I'll be playing plenty myself

So I realize you're joking here, but I think this raises an interesting point with a lot of hoser cards, particularly the Leyline cards since getting them in your opening hand gives you an even bigger advantage. The question I'm interested in is just how advantageous is it to open the game with a Leyline of the Void against the current type1 decks. Given that for a lot of decks, counter is the dominant means of control, resolving an uncouterable Leyline has a lot of advantages over Tormod's Crypt. Decks like Control Slaver, Gifts, and Dragon don't often run more than one card (Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor often) that can remove in-play enchantments. They rely mostly on counter to keep hosers from ruining their day. Just out of curiosity I calculated the probability of opening the game with a Leyline of the Void in play before the first turn assuming you are willing to mulligan down to one card in order to get it. It comes out to 86.5% If you add Serum Powder to the deck the probability goes to 94.3%.

Now granted running a transformational sideboard that sucks up 8 cards of your sideboard to hose graveyard decks is a big hit to your other machups. I'm wondering if anyone thinks the number of graveyard based decks in the environment are worth running such a strategy given that you can say with 95% confidence that you could win games 2 and 3. Or 85.6% if you're only dedicating 4 cards.

Here's my math if you want to check it:

// Probability of opening the game with Leyline given L leylines, S serum powders, H handsize, and D cards in deck
P(_,_,0,_) = 0 // if the hand size is zero there's zero probability.
P(L, S, H, D) =
   // Probability of getting a Leyline in the hand
    P-card(L, H, D) +
   // Probability of getting a serum powder and no leyline times the probability of getting the card in a new hand after you powder
    P-snl (L, S, H, D) * P(L,S-1,H,D-H) +
   // The probability of getting neither leyline nor powder time the probability of getting the card after you mulligan.
    (1 - P-card(L+S,H,D)) * P(L,S,H-1,D)

// Probabiliy of drawing a card from a deck with N occurances, Handsize H and deck size D
P-card(N, H, D) = 1 - ((d - n)! * (d - h)!) / ((d - n - h)! * (d - h) !

// Probability of drawing a card drawing a serum powerder S, without a Leyline L, in hand size H and deck size D
P-snl(_, _, 0, _) = 0 // if the hand size is zero there's zero probability
P-snl(L, S, H, D) =
   // Probability of getting a serum powered time the probability of not getting leyline in the rest of the hand
   (/ s d) * (1 - P-card(L,H-1,D-1))  +
   // Probability of getting neither in the opening hand times the probability of getting serumpowered and no leyline in the rest of the cards
   (/ (d - s - l) d) * P-snl(L, S, H-1, D-1)

So here's two cents about your deck from a Shahrazad enthusiast.

1) I like the Leyline of the Void idea. I think it's a very good type1 hoser and I myself have tried coupling it with Shahrazad. I think you'll want to have some better top decking facility if you're going to do this though. The trick is to go into a subgame with Leyline of the Void in your opening hand. Brainstorm and to a lesser extent Sensei's Divining Top do this for you. I say Sensei less so because you can top a card from your hand.

2) Shahrazad decks need to do two things well in order to win. They need to make the oppoent lose the subgame and they need to deal damage really fast in the main game. If you can't figure out a good way to win the subgame consistantly then you're deck will not work. Concession through removal from the game has seemed like the best option since the 8th edition rules. Your deck lacks sourly in the damage department. I suggest ditch the land destruction angle and go for some speed damage. You need to set up on turn one, play Shahrazad on turn two and follow up with 10 damage between the rest of turn two and turn three.

It's really hard to make a deck that can both turn Shahrazad into WW 10 damage and take advantage of it. Usually because turning it into WW10 takes up too many card slots. Good luck though.

-mike

I've run into similar problems but I think it's a little more complex. The problem is that Shahrazad is essentially a punisher card. Assuming you can win a subgame the card reads "Remove a few cards from your opponents library unless that player pays half his life." This means you essentially get damage when you need removal and removal when you need damage. It depends on your deck construction and theirs but some times half their life is that big of a deal. Playing a second turn Shahrazad before you attack with two Lions is a big deal if you can burn them turn three. So in the subgame their going to let you remove a couple cards so they can win. On the other hand if they're playing Oath and you swords a critter they just cocede and win the main game with 10 life.

I think a lot of the time it's also based a lot of your own build. If you run a lot of burn and weenies with Shahrazad, you're going to struggle to win subgames and no one will concede them (forget about time limits for a moment) since you can't threaten the deck. If you run a ton of Crypts, Swords, etc. They'll just concede immediately since losing 10 life against your weak control deck is no big deal.

Finding the right balance is hard and I think it's not likely viable as a competative deck given what's out there. Cards like Disintegrate are a big help with this problem, since then can attack as removal threats for Welders, Fish critters, etc. in the subgame but deal the final burn to the dome in the main game.

Problem is Disintegrate isn't powerful enough. It's exactly the kind of card Shahrazad needs though. Maybe if more removal/burn cards are release that have some power, Shahrazad will be more viable. Either that or really some removal spells that remove lots of cards like "Sorcery: Remove all your opponents library from the game. They can't lose by drawing this turn. Return that library to the game at end of turn". Yes silly I know, but you can see something like this getting printed as an anti-draw/control card. And in a sub game you could just play it and concede and then they're screwed.

So I don't think Shahrazad is powerful enough for competative play right now, but I think removal/burn is the right direction and more powerful cards along these lines might be printed. Who knows?

-mike

p.s.


No actually losing half your life rounded up means Shahrazad does kill you. When you're at 1 life, half your life is 0.5 life. Half your life rounded up is 1 life. You'd lose 1 life if you were at 1 life.

The reason this card won't see type1 play is that it's really only good, as you said, for reducing cards casting cost to 4BB. There are certainly decent effects at higher casting costs they're not played because their costs are far to high. Turning their cost into 4BB is also too high. Any thing you'd play is better off being grabbed with a regrowth, recoup, or yawgie's will which only increase the casting cost by a small amount. That way you have a deck with already low casting cost stuff and the recursion you throw in is very cheap. Needing to have 2 dark rituals and Sins of the Past in your hand and also have a really expensive game winning spell in the graveyard is just not a very good plan when you stack it up against needing to have tinker in hand and an artifact on the board.

I think White vs. Red is a meta game decision. I'm not talking about splashing both, that sounds like a bad idea. I think it comes down to Swords to Plowshares and Disenchant vs. Fire and Ice and Rack and Ruin. There are other small benefits to each color but I don't think any of them out weigh the differences in these two slots.

Swords to Plowshares does better against the bigger critters in Oath and Workshop Aggro decks where as Fire and Ice does better against the Fish decks and can hit Welder. Rack and Ruin is better for Workshop decks where as Disenchant hits Oath, Blood Moon, and Back to Basics.

As for little benefits each color gives the deck:

White:
  Decree of Justice: uncountable use of drain mana, runs through standstill, late game big hitters option
  Balance: Only a small benefit because it's not good in landstill but it's such a powerful card you might run it. You usually have more cards in hand and land than opponent but it is a onesided wrath of god.
  Eternal Dragon: Extra fetch, recurs for late game big hitter
  Flooded Stand: There's no blue fetch land to grab basic mountains.
  Karakas: If you face a lot of Oath it's pretty sweet.
 
Red:
  Red Elemental Blast: Let's face it you might as well main deck this card in type 1.
  Cunning Wish: red's got a lot of really nice cunning wish targets for free artifact distruction, recurable artifact destruction, free burn, etc.
  Extra burn in sideboard if you're facing loads of fish.

I still think Landstill might have a chance these days. The biggest problem it has is AEther Vial. Nothing destroys the Landstill game plan like a first turn AEther Vial. Granted non-basic land hate is also very prominant. I think running one Crucible is a good start since it can give you the lock and helps get back your mana lands. By the way I totally agree with you on Tefferi's Response. It's underestimated. I run 2 and 3 Stifle and it's never a dead card. Have draw two destroy Jitte looming over an opponent's head always makes him think twice before he Jitte's my Factory.

Hope that helps,

-mike

I agree with running this deck with a late game kill rather than fish's control critters. You want to lock the board down and then win. My suggested from you when you take the deck back to concept is that you don't over do it with the mana denial. You've got 4 Null rod, and they don't stack. 4 Stiffle and 4 Shadow of doubt is way too much. Sure they both nix stuff other than fetch, they'll wind up as dead cards a lot of the time. I'd go with Stifle over Doubt and maybe only 3. Put in some more card draw.

You need counter spells to make this deck work. You're doing a good job denial mana but there's just plain old no way to reliably keep them from doing anything at all. I'd curb the mana denial to a large degree and an add counter and draw. Personally I think the Drain/Decree kill is sweet.

-mike

p.s. I definitely think you should run Shahrazad. That's my favorite card.

Now that you bring up Dragon, are players really paying the 2+3WW to recur a Dragon and get more cards. Seems like it will take a long time to get up to 7 mana and once you have, isn't that mana better spent countering, activating man lands, or playing the Dragon itself?

-mike

I guess that is a big problem. Late game not so much but you're likely loosing a Tundra (or a Plains that you fetched instead of fetching Tundra) for a land that only produces white mana.

-mike

I know that Landstill is not a powerful deck these days but some people have played it on recent occasions making top 20. My question is why did they never run Kjeldoran Outpost in the UW version. Seems like a better play than mana lands in lot of cases. Mostly because you can sit back and react with untapped mana and then put out a token if the opponent doesn't play anything you need to counter.

-mike

I think you should run Back to Basics over Blood Moon. For starters Blood Moon shuts down your Wastelands and Fetchlands. Yes the turn into Mountains but that extra red mana isn't helping you. In addition Back to Basics is a lot worse for workshop decks. They still have the initial boost of a three mana Mishra's Workshop, yes, but that's it. Blood Moon can be played around more easily.

3 Gorilla Shaman is too much. It'd run sooner run Null Rod or Energy Flux in this slot. Maybe run one and consider swapping the other two out for Goblin Vandals or something that can nail artifacts other than moxen. Increasing the Rack and Ruin count also seems a reasonable idea.

Honestly, I don't think the red splash really gives you too much over typical Mono-U control decks but Rack and Ruin and Fire and Ice are two excellent cards. Actually it seems like the best thing you get from red is Red Element Blast.

Yes, and thank you very much for that. I did not no how the kill worked and now I do.

It would be nice if some other people on the forum could avoid flaming the thread and calling people retards and making grand assumptions that


In addition to conflating intelligence with a lack of information about a deck "[he] designed." I realize you're some much further above me, but this is the newbie forum and a lack of empathy doesn't make you intelligent.

Thanks again everyone with useful input,
-mike

So it looks like the general consensus is that Gifts is a utility card to fetch mana, draw, counter that can also eventually grab a kill, typically walk/recoup/tinker/will. Thanks for all the help guys. I do have another few questions.

Why play rebuild over hurkyl's recall? Is it to nix opposing mana for counters or to hose workshop decks as a side effect?

Warble mentioned rebuid+wish for the win. I'm assuming you're wishing for tendrils. Does this win occur much in gifts decks that run burring wish and rebuild or is dsc usually the kill.

Hi-Val, what do you think semantics means?

-mike

So there are a lot of decks using Gifts Ungiven now-a-days. I'm wondering how these decks work, in particular, how they use Gifts. It seems natural that you'd be able to grab set of four cards where any two will win you the game. I've been reading lists and found a lot of mention of Will (of course) and occationally Regrowth to accomplish this. I'm also particularly interested in the version that runs High Tide and how it builds up mana advantage with it. Is the a primer on gifts decks. Seems like I can't find one anywhere on TMD.

thanks,
-mike

I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding why BUG Oath decks are running Will. Sure Oath dumps a ton if not your entire deck in the graveyard. My confusion is that the deck is a heavy counter spell deck.

Most decks are running not only Force and Drain but a full set of another counter spell making it something like 12 counterspells. In general counters in the yard aren't all that great for a Will turn. That leaves the Will player with mostly draw spells to play. Sure draw spells are huge for Will but in an Oath deck you've got just about your whole deck in the yard. What are you drawing?

Other cards in the deck are Oath, a couple critters, mana fast mana, and land. Your critters aren't cast, typically. Is it really worth it to run will to get back an Oath and some extra fast mana?

Tendrills decks are using Will for fast mana and draw but that's a totally different story. They haven't got their deck in the yard and they're drawing for the sake of drawing for the sake of storm. Old decks like Sui-Black Willed back out numerous control cards that are more proactive than counterspell like Hymn and Sinkhole.

What's Will do for Oath?

Thanks,
-mike

p.s. I would appreciate if we could avoid telling me about how broken Yawgy's Will is. We all know this. I'm specifically interested in what it's doing for Oath.

Defense Grid is so much better at hosing control than Mana Web though. Mana Web is just a neat card that has a unique effect that doesn't really effect the game too much. Sure it's harder to be proactive in control but it already is and this doesn't make it much harder. It makes it impossible to play spells before and after combat. Neither of these things really hurts. If they want to get ready for counter they'll just leave the mana open. Mana Web doesn't stop free counter (Force of Will and Daze) either. Defense Grid really hurts it.

-mike

Link to SCG deck database

A couple months ago two players ran [card]Eternal Dragon[/card] in Landstill decks. Granted Landstill is an obsolete deck but I can't help but wonder why play this card? I suppose it could be a poor decision but 10th place is a good finish for someone running a card that seems so bad. As a 5/5 flier it seems [card]Exalted Angel[/card] is a lot better. Are players using the plains cycling or return to hand abilities to produce card draw with Standstill out? Maybe it's just a vestal card with options.

Thanks,
-mike

Edited your 12 line URL    - Bram

I understand he was using Magic slang, I just disagree that a Serenity nullifies a Memory Jar without mana. For starters Memory Jar takes no mana to activate, so you can just set it off. If he's saying that you need mana to activate a Jar because you need mana to play the cards you draw it's still an unfounded argument. The Jar player would need to play the Jar with the Serenity on the table, which is just a dumb thing to do if you're going to not activate it. It makes you hold things back, sure, this has already been mentioned. But unless I'm mistake and there's a good example, Jar's activation is not a good reason to run Serenity.

While I'm at it I think it's also strange to say

Serenity will not destroy a Standstill. You can't put Standstill out the same turn as a Serenity to protect it very fruitfully because you'll lose it as explained, but you're not going to be playing Serenity and Standstill on the same turn. That's just silly. You're much better off saving the two mana for a counter.

-mike

I'm pretty sure that's not true. Could you explain why you think it is?

-mike

I am wonder why there are no decks that run both. It seems like the main issue is that UU is difficult with four land slots sucked up with non-blue mana. However, there are still plenty of slots for blue sources. It seems like a mono-u aggro control deck or a red splashed for welder deck might be viable. I'm sure people have tried this. Is 4 Drain, 4 Force, 4 Workshop, 1 Academy, 7 SoLoMox just a problem of committing yourself to too many different deck elements at the price of synergy?

Thanks,
-mike

Fire can kill a face down Angel where Slice and Dice cannot. Sorry my lesson is not as applicable in the rest of your life a Ric Flare's is.

-mike