For me this card seems like an agressive tutor instead of a controllish or combo type. It reminds me of Gamble in a way that it inst great if you are tyring to combo out and protect stuff. So, what popular black deck is agressive, redundant and dumps its hand?

...

........

...............?????

Suicide Black! With Dark Confidant and the unbanning of Imperial Seal it looks like good Ol' Sui Black could make a comback. This is exactly what sui needs: a topdecking card. This together with Confidant seems silly good. So stop thinking about combo for a minute!! Maybe we could come up with a pre- tutor release Sui deck that implements these cards.

-Apprentice

Oh, for all this time I thought welders were used for thier ability!!! How stupid was I :p.

Try Iciatian Javelineers for Ninja Feed. They can remove Welders and the like over and over again.

-Apprentice

No one will attack with a welder when thier opponent has a Vial in play...

Who attacks with Welder anyway??

-Apprentice

Has anyone tried Wheel of Fortune or Memory Jar? Jar seems strong as your opponent wont draw what he needs post Jester Cap.

Jesters Sombrero 

-Apprentice

I agree that the Djinn won't do much better in a reanimator situation then the Dragon does. The dragon is a walking combo like the Djinn, but he assures that you can go infinate as soon as you play him.

What about a new kind of control that uses the Djinn instead of 'Phling? It looks outdated and clunky.... Of course if it packed lots of artifact mana then it could play the Djinn early and use the estra mana to replicate cards with the Djinn.

I dont know, but it seems that Oath is the best build for this card, and we have proven here that it is still considerably weak then Akroma or SotN. Does anyone have any other thoughts?

-Apprentice

So has anyone come up with better decklist ideas for the Djinn? I have been thinking alot lately about what kind of combo decks it would make.... What could be a potential engine?

-Apprentice

With further testing I have taken out the AK build because its not as good as I would have liked. Brainstorm is better an leaves me with more space. I liked the suggestions. This decklist was posted to get people thinking about the Djinn. It is a powerful card and in some instances it beats a standard Oath build, but as of right now it cannot outperform a regular Oath deck consistantly. I DO belive that Djinn is huge and it has potential in many different decktypes. I get the feeling that Oath isnt it's home, just a fun idea. Well I am going to have fun with it, it is innovative, new and even if I dont with the tourney I will win the crowd. I totally agree that "right" is not always "polite", I have been on both ends of that stick before. I will admit that those that bash ideas a little more then neccessary will deter people from posting new ideas, but I am not afraid of failure, nor do I take offense to what seems to be the general consensus. maybe we could discuss different ideas with the Djinn, like the TPS build, or an Academy spin-off. But for right now I will show you the new decklist.

Combo (7):

4 Oath of Druids
1 Berzerk
2 Djinn Illuminatus

Tutor/Draw (13):

R Ancestral Recall
R Mystical Tutor
R Time Walk
R Regrowth
R Demonic Tutor
R Y@wgmoth's Will
1 Gaea's Blessing
4 Brainstorm
2 Impulse

Counter/Control Elements (17):

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Mana Leak
4 Duress
1 Oxidize

Mana Sources (23):

4 Forbidden Orchard
5 Moxen
R Srip Mine
R Black Lotus
R Tolarian Academy
2 Wasteland
4 Blue Fetchland
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Island

Please PM me if you are interested in following up on the Djinn idea. Since the card has not even been printed I have no idea into which decklist it would best conform, or to what a completely new decklist would look like with it. Oath is probably not its home because the kill tech of SotN is too good to fool with. But I still like the idea of taking several turns at once, or Dark Ritualing out mad mana, or tutoring up your dream hand and going off. Berserk is just an example of how silly this card can get. Please give thoughts on the thread, make a new one (preferably in the forum that I may post in) or PM me with it and we may collaborate.

-Apprentice

Its just a test to see if this creature could be more powerful then the ones that have been around for ages. I have played this deck several times and you can usually pull a win after the first two turns that Djinn coes out. Three is the latest. Lets say that you didnt even have a Berzerk in your hand. You could easily draw into it with multiple AKs, or tutoring. The actual build for Oath is probably as good as it gets. The recent article about the skeleton opf Oath shows this. The top-8 Oath decks all run the same skeleton, and this is just a stab as to what could be.

-Apprentice

What should be cut for Brainstorm? I did realize that that was a large descrepency from most other Oath decks. I should find space for 4.

-Apprentice

That was the reason behind my inclusion of Berzerk. With enough draw Djinn will most certainly enable you to get a Berzerk allowing you to win in one turn (two when you count Summoning Sickness) for just three mana on that turn. Once the Djinn hits play you can do so much, you can draw yourself into oblivion, wipe out an opponents hand or kill them ASAP. If you ask me I think that Djinn does MORE then Akroma does, even if it is less protected and its power isn't as large.

-Apprentice

A new card that has been previewed in Guildpact called Djinn Illuminatus has caught my eye. I have always followed Oath and its many varients, but I think that this creature has something on Akroma and Spirit of the Night. Here is the text of the card:

Djinn Illuminatus
Creature- Djinn
5 B/R B/R (these are hybrid mana costs)
Flying
Each instant and Socrery spell you play has Replicate. The Replicate cost is equal to it's mana cost. (When you play it, copy it for each time you payed it's Replicate cost. You may choose new targets for the copies.)
3/5

When I saw this card my jaw dropped, the first thing that I thought of was Oath. This card is not "win-more" but it will assure the win in almost any situation that it hits play. By adjusting the maindeck list of t-1 Oath I think that not only can you win with this card, but you can abuse it effectivley enough so that people will fear it. I adjusted the decklst to include more devastating "replicate" cards, things like Demonic Tutor and Accumulated Knowledge. Without further ado, I will show you my thoughts on the decklist.

U/g/b Djinni Oath

Combo (8):

4 Oath of Druids
2 Berzerk
2 Djinn Illuminatus

Tutor/Draw (14):

R Ancestral Recall
R Time Walk
R Regrowth
R Demonic Tutor
R Y@wgmoth's Will
1 Gaea's Blessing
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Intuition

Counter/Control Elements (15):

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Mana Leak
2 Duress
1 Oxidize

Mana Sources (23):

4 Forbidden Orchard
5 Moxen
R Srip Mine
R Black Lotus
R Library of Alexandria
2 Wasteland
4 Blue Fetchland
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Island

Card selections:

The most contraversial selection that I added to this deck besides the Djinn himself will probably be Berzerk. I included it because the kill condition even though it adds alot to the control elements is much weaker then before. Spirit of the Night could kill in about three turns, while the Djinn will have a much longer clock than that. But if you have the Djinn out and one Berzerk in your hand, then all you need is three mana: G to make Djinn a 6/10, G to make it a 12/20, and G to make it a 24/40.

Regrowth: I noticed that this card is missing from many current Oath decklists. Although it is not quite powerful as a 1-of, with Djinn it becomes a house and a second Y@wgmoth's Will.

Ak/Intuition engine: This one was the obvious draw engine choice because I can mulitiply each AK if the Djinn is in play which makes it easier to draw into Berzerk. The engine is still great if you dont have the Djinn out.

Duress/Oxidize: These are the cards that are incredible with Djinn on the turn you attack. 2 Duresses with one card is great, but three is even better. Oxidize clears the entire board of artifacts with the Djinn in play!

I haven't tested the manabase that much. Library of Alexandria is on the edge of being cut for another Island. It so far has worked nicely, but it might not be worth it in the long run. Does it look like I have enough souces of each color? Does Dark Ritual deserve a spot for synergy with the Djinn? Should I include Brainstorm? More Duress or Cabal Therapy? I want some feedback!

-Apprentice

 Ok, this deck is based off the precon that came during Tempest that used En-Kors to control the creature-ridden board. Since my metagame has alot of creature based decks, and since I like the style of this, I decided to make a t-1 version. I use many of the same key cards, but I also use some newer additions. The premise, if you dont allready know, is to abuse the en-kor standard ability to redirect damage to creatures with protection. I use Flickering Ward to essentially immunize all of my creatures to a decktype, then I slap on an Empyrial Armor to win the game.

This deck is to be casual, but as agressive as possible. It wont win tourneys, but I want it to win in my metagame. My metagame consist of:

Merfolk Control
R/G Beats
Jank Enchantress
A sometimes brutal Reanimator deck
MBC
R/B creature based deck
Saproling Token generation
and a few others as well...

Here is what you all have been waiting for-- I give you:

En-Kor En La Casa!

Creatures (19):

4 Nomad en-Kor
4 Warrior en-Kor
2 Shaman en-Kor
3 Savannah Lion (Im missing the 4th)
1 Soltari Priest
1 Soltari Monk (Shadow with Empyrial Armor HURTS)
1 Silver Knight
1 White Knight
2 Mother of Runes (I think I have played at least 20 games but I havent used her ability yet. She theoretically seems good, but I always have a flickering ward or the like. She is on the verge of being cut.

Proto Cards (10):
4 Flickering Ward (SO nice with Plate and Armor)
4 Ward of Lights
2 Pariah

Creature Pump (8):

4 Empyrial Armor
2 Empyrial Plate (All I got )
2 Land Tax (need more?? Or is this a good number?)

Utility (6):

4 StoP
2 Disenchant

Land (17):

16 Plains (Is this too few? I DO have 2 Land Tax. Is this good enough?)
1 Kor Haven (This card is mostly a flavor choice)

Thanks for the help!

-Apprentice

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Dark L

Sure thing, you know I should have known that 0_o...

Anyone else want to spar?

-Apprentice

Sweet, you want to get on now?

-Apprentice
Keep messages like this to PMs
-Jacob

Forgive me if this is the wrong sphere to post in, but does anyone here have AIM that would like to play Apprentice against me? I need some good old fashoned practice.

My AIM name is:

SpaceboyXYU1979

-Apprentice

I see your point about the Strip and Sanctum, usually it isnt a problem though. I only use my belcher when I have complete lockdown anyway...

I never saw the point of Tithe, it is a cardslot that a bullet could fill, and next to land tax it doesn't do much, you can Tax every turn, Tithe is one shot. It is a nice shuffle effect, which this deck never gets enough of though.

The addition of both black and red would be bad IMHO, sure you get two nice tutors, but you get fairly weaker manabase for it. It really depends on who you are. Vindicate is nice for more kill cards, but usually you can hate out anything that hits the board. If I were to go with black my card choices would include tutors and Duress, and probably not more.

-Apprentice

First off, If you are running belcher you shouldn't argue against adding red. IMHO the deck has grown around red and likes to use it over any color. No counters? You have the 8 blasts. No disruption? You have chant/abeyance. Both black and blue are weak in splash, they merit a serious deck rerout.

Secondly, Parfait can be played mono-white, and it is. I play this way. I use red in my SB, but playing with the mono white pre-sidebaord build teaches me how to win many many matchups in first game.

Next, Plateau is a weak card choice, it can't be taxed for and it is non basic. Why not run mountains? You can search for them! They arent affected by Back to Basics, too.

Counter wall? I rarely have the problem. First off, I run 4 Chants, (which may or may not be accompanied by Abeyance), 4 Isochron Scepter (anyone who doesnt play this is making and error IMHO), 4 Argivian Find, and 2 Replenish. Put those in with 4 Scroll Rack and you have 18 threats that 16 must be countered. This defeats the most rigorous Mono Blue Control decks one for one.

Isochron Scepter is a bomb! Clunky? It costs 2 (!!!) mana. If anything, WoG is clunky, and one shot. Iso can be a swords/disenchant/chant/abeyance EVERY TURN. This effectively adds 4 more must counter spells and an additional win combo. Can you say effective Time Walk every turn? Isocron does this with Abeyance/Chant.

And Humility or Moat over Wrath of God anyday.

Also, addding CoP maindeck is a really bad cardchoice, especially when you have Story Circle to play. If you really really needed them (if you were in a heavy aggro area that ran stompy and sligh all day long) then at worst I would play maindeck Rune of Protection, it cycles when you draw it before you get your combo. Story Circle is almost never a dead draw, unless you are playing against Academy or Tendrils. Just because you can rack it away doesn't mean you should add dead draws to your deck. The point of the silver bullets is to hose one strategy completely and then effect the other strategies slightly. look at Humility. It kills all aggro decks and look what else it does! It hoses Morphling, too! And Welder, and Tog, damn, what doesnt it do??

My current Build:

Mana (20):

11 Plains
1 Mountian
1 Serra's Sanctum
R Strip Mine
R Lotus Petal
R Mox Pearl
R Mox R00b
R Mox Diamond
R Black Lotus
R Sol Ring

Combo (10):

4 Land Tax
4 Scroll Rack
1 Zuran Orb
R Enlighteded Tutor

Bullets (11):

2 Humility
1 Moat
1 Ivory Mask
2 Story Circle
3 Aura of Silence
1 Disenchant
R Balance

Utility (17):

4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Argivian Find
4 Isochron Scepter
1 Replenish

Kill (2):

2 Goblin Charbelcher

Sideboard contains different things on different days, but usually include:

Blood Moon
ReB
Slice and Dice
Ivory Mask
Aegis of Honor
Cop Red
Cop Black
other assortment of things.

-Apprentice

If you have sideboard space think about taking out Seals, adding Disenchant and Isochron Scepter. If you go in this direction also consider Argivian Find and Chant.

Can you tell I play Parfait? :p

-Apprentice

I have decided that I dont want to go in the direction of the recruiter combo, first of all it slows the mana curve down and secondly, why don't I just play FCG? And I dont want to.

Warchief IMHO is too late to have a devastating effect. Yes, it gives me cheap goblins (that only 6 goblins benefit from) and haste, well I have Charge for that hopefully. Besides, on turn four I have gotten into bolt/incinerate/grenade range and playing goblins then is just win more. Warchief is a win more card in this deck.

Sharpshooter is overcosted for the same effect of a bolt or two. I will do more testing on this, but right now it isn't looking good.

How does prospector help at all times? Right now I see that it can give you a boost if a critter of yours dies. Usually I dont have mana problems. My goblins cost 1 or 2 and to get a broken play I dont need more than 3 mana. Also Raging Goblin has synergy with Piledriver and Flunkies. However, I am not one to be stubborn. I will test some new ideas in this slot, but I dont think Prospector is what Im looking for.

Chains- If I had 'em they would be in.


Recruiter- Right now its not looking good for him. Without Ringleader (which I am not including) he is weak and sets up a kill that may already be there.

Seige Gang Commander- I'm not willing to pray on lackey. I want all of my cards in my hand to have an immediate effect, save Goblin Grenade.

Law, what did you have in mind to take the place of Vandal? I saw nothing that really works as well as it. Surely you didn't mean Archeologist? Maybe I should run Bookie, too .

+2 Fireblast
+R Strip Mine
+R Black Vise

Right now the deck is:

LAND (17):

16 Mountain
R Strip Mine

Goblins (24):

4 Raging Goblin
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Cadets
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Goblin Vandal
2 Mogg Flunkie
4 Goblin Piledriver

Bolts (19):

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Goblin Grenade
4 Reckless Charge
2 Fireblast
R Black Vise

Total: 60

This deck is supposed to resemble Goblin Sligh. If you ask me, ofer the past few years people have forgotten about the low mana curve of sligh and goblin burn. Adding cards like GSC, Goon, Sharpshooter, and then compensating with Lacky, Warchief and Prospector is not the direction I want to go. I want the cards in my hand to be played as fast as possible, so they have an affect of the game as fast as possible. I like it that my deck runs nothing with CC 3 or more. This makes the damage race that much faster.

Of course, I could be wrong, and in fact I need to test out the decks you have shown me to really make assumptions like the ones I have. But as of right now I stick with my opinions.

-Apprentice

This is a good old deck of mine; Goblin Sligh. It could stand some revision due to new tech: Goblin Recruiter + Goblin Ringleader (actually, this tech has been around for quite some time. My second incarnation of goblin/burn used Recruiter without the Ringleader due to tempo advantage and reliance on topdecking)

LAND (16):

16 Mountain

Goblins (24):

4 Raging Goblin
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Cadets
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Goblin Vandal (It isn't as aggressive on the field, but when you need it it HELPS. Are there other suggestions for this slot? Arguments against it? Arguments for Goblin Tinkerer?)
2 Mogg Flunkies (This usually doesnt bite me in the ass, but the chance is always there. With Reckless Charge and Raging Goblin it usually gets its attack in.)
4 Goblin Piledriver (Core of the deck. Sickest goblin ever IMHO)

Bolts (16):

4 Lightning Bolt (one is revised ^_^! BWM, don't say anything about your beta ones... I want to look cool for once :p)
4 Incinerate (2 are foily!!)
4 Goblin Grenade (This card makes turn three kill possible)
4 Reckless Charge (High synergy with Piledriver and Flunkies)

Total: 56

Could it be as easy as adding 2 Recruiter and 2 Ringleader? 3 and 1?? I really don't know, I would have an idea but TheManaDrain.com's search option is currently malfunctioning.

Card Questions: Is the manabase thick enough to handle Ringleader? I only run 16 sources, alot of sligh runs 20. I wont use Wasteland in here, I don't need it for my metagame. If I did PoP would definatly show up.

What do you think about Fireblast? I have 3, but that number seems high. 2 Could work. In place of 'Cinerate?

Does Goblin Matron make an appearance? If so, in what number? She can be usefull, but it seems like alot of waste of mana. However she will most likely win the game.

Strategy with new tech: Either Recruit for Ringleader followed by 4 Piledriver, or if you have a Charge in your hand, Recruit for Ringleader, 3 Raging Goblin and then Piledriver. This makes for a turn earlier kill when Piledriver is Charged.

-Apprentice

Goblin Welder is just a great sidboard card, especially if you run artifacts yourself.

-Apprentice

I will give LED a thought.

Is there any other blue utility that you would use?

-Apprentice

How often do you use LED? What times do you use it?

And also, do you think I need Soldevi Digger? I haven't decked myself yet, but it may be a problem in long games.

-Apprentice

Unfortuately you suggested all cards that I don't have. I will indeed try to find more Metalworkers and subsiquently the Staff (could get REAL good with worker). What do specifically think about the Urza's lands? So far they work out fine, but again, I'm not playing in a t-1 environment by any means.

Please show me this decklist, any info I can get would be greatly appreciated.

-Apprentice

Trike actually works out really well in this deck, Extruder feeds it quite nicely. Trike+Extruder=no more weenies for a while.

I also added Mystical Tutor because it effectively adds one more Braingeyser, Stroke of genius and Tinker.

Its sorta sad that I have posted two decks on the most popular and sophisticated magic forum and only gotten a total of 3 responses...

-Apprentice

I would definatly go with Isochron Scepter, you have plenty of targets that are nice.

And I suppose you own no dual lands? Even so, the new pitchlands are nice, they are titled:

Bloodstained Mire
Flooded Strand
Polluted Delta
Windswept Heath
Wooded Foothills

Excellent cards in multi-color and even better with the dual lands.

-Apprentice

This is a casual deck that I play with my friends. It has alot of synergy with itself, and some of the weird card choces work out due to the other cards in the deck. It started off as a Burning Bridges type deck, but I just took out red to add blue. The first Kill tech was good ol' Kaervek's Torch, but now I am using substandard beats.

This deck is casual because I don't have the cards to turn it insto something tournament worthy. I will try to make it as good as possible with the cards that I have, though, so suggest everything.

FIRST INCARNATION:

Lands (17):

7 Mountain
2 Urza's Mine
2 Urza's Powerplant
2 Urza's Tower
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Ancient Tomb
R Strip Mine

Mana Artifacts (15):

4 Helm of Awakening
2 Sisay's Ring
3 Thran Dynamo
2 Basalt Monolith
1 Metal Worker
R Sol Ring
R Grim Monolith
R Mana Vault
R Lotus Petal

The Tech (18):

4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Smokestack
1 Snakebasket
1 Grafted Skullcap
1 Sands of Time
1 Defense Grid
1 Null Brooch
1 Planar Portal
1 Kyren Archive
R Voltaic Key
R Black Vise
R Memory Jar
R Wheel of Fortune

The Kill (3):
4 Kaervek's Torch
2 Ghitu Fire
1 Aladdin's Ring

As you can see the deck is full of jank and substandard cards. I decided to try and make it more broken by removing red alltogether. Blue was added.

Some notes on original deckist:

I do have Tinker, no Academy, no Welders (believe me that if I did they would be in here already), 4 Wasteland, 1 Juggy, 1 Trike, 2 Mastiwhore :p (although I don't really see how creatures will do well with 4 Bridges). 4 of each Urza's Lands is what I originally had but my playtester insisted on cutting 2 of each, but I think he was wrong. 4 of each are going in. No more Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors, no Mana Crypt, I do have many Worn Powerstones but I do think that Sisays Ring is better in this case due to the Helms. 1 Junk Diver, 1 Karn. No Covetous Dragon, sadly...

NEW DECKLIST:

Lands (20):

6 Island
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Powerplant
4 Urza's Tower
1 Ancient Tomb
R Strip Mine

Mana Artifacts (15):

4 Helm of Awakening
2 Sisay's Ring
3 Thran Dynamo
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Metal Worker
R Sol Ring
R Grim Monolith
R Mana Vault
R Lotus Petal

The Tech (18):

4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Snakebasket
1 Grafted Skullcap
1 Sands of Time
1 Null Brooch
1 Planar Portal
R Voltaic Key
R Memory Jar

The Beats (8):

1 Karn
1 Juggernaut
2 Masticore
2 Triskelion
2 Extruder

Blue (5):

R Tinker
R Brain Geyser
R Stroke of Genious
2 Propaganda

This is 59 total. I know this deck can get better so give me some suggestions.

Card explainations (some need it):

Helms are used as fuel. Play them when you draw them and try to gold fish your hand. They use a big draw spell to wash rinse and repeat. Helm is good with the mana artifacts and Bridge, and the fatties, too.

Bridge + Fatties: I can usually manipulate the board so I don't end up screwing myself.  I may draw cards for my turn and then play them all after I attack. Or I can animate the Bridges with Karn. Or I can sact the Bridges to Extruder for the win. The bridge is there to curb initial waves of creatures and then to mantain board control in late game.

Sub-par creature picks: I only have 2 'Cores, 1 Juggy, 1 Karn, 2 Trikes and no other good beats. I have to substitute with Extruder.

Do you think I should run 2 Trikes with no Welder? They are good utility and can beat, but there may be a better solution becauase they are weakened by the inability to recur.

Thanks.

-Apprentice

Yes, this is the information I needed, I will mull over your suggestions and then try to find some of the cards. Thanks for the help.

-Apprentice

I hate to up my own thread, but I came here to get feedback and it is hard to believe that no one has any feedback in such a prestigous website as TMD.

Again I apologize for the thread upping, but I just want to make my deck as good as possible. I am thirsty for information!

-Apprentice

Against creature rush I use Pestilence, just one takes care of lots and lots of creatures. If i get desperate I will Drain Life a fat critter, but usually those go to the dome.

I prefer to use one Necro, one Bargain and one Arena, because I can use the Necro and Bargain whenever I want, and I have the life to give me a full hand every turn. The lone Arena is used to substitute for its more broken comrades. Besides, one Necro works better with the towers than many Arenas.

Extraplanar Lens is useful, but I lack all cards with the new face. I must admit I was not gung-ho about buying them up, so I am a little retarded in this area. Keep suggesting them, tho, at worst I can learn what they do on a cardsearch .

What does everyone think about adding more Towers? 2 seems to be a good number because I fear adding more will just make the deck sick... I also dont want dead Tower draws when I need a kill card.

Now come on, I KNOW you have something to say, so just post it, I need feedback.

-Apprentice