I used the personal tutor in place of the Iseal last tournament,
for the same reasons as you.
And it was rather disapointing.

There wasn't a point where I'd want to pitch it
and it's more marginal use lost me 2 games.

Oc it also won me 2 games, but Iseal would've won those too.

So to sum up, it is a budget consideration wich isn't that bad,
but it simply is going to cost you games.

@13nova:

so glad you read the things i type and then try to make'm worse...

There's no need for this. Verbal Warning for flamebaiting.
-Godder

gush pile: DD (1), gush (2), petal (3), ancestral (4), lotus (5), will (6), petal (7), lotus (8), tendrills (9)

so if you used a lotus or ritual to cast the DD it's lethal without any help
not only does this offer an additional spell, also at the cost of less mana,
wich mean you can play it off a gushchain and godly brainstorm much more easely

for the additional slot:

it has already been posted in this thread,
but I'm loving doomsday
it's very much win now, AND it gets cards out of the graveyard

here are some piles I use, nothing new or fancy though

gush pile:

petal
ancestral
lotus
will
tendrills


brainstorm pile (need 2 cards in hand):

lotus
ritual
will
tendrills
random


ponder pile (need U post ponder):

ancestral
lotus
ritual
will
tendrills

That board pretty much looks a lot like what I would be playing if i had a tourney tomorow.

However, I'm still scared of goblins,
earwig is a very fast jester's cap, wich in all honesty hurts this deck.

The green plan gives you additional outs in theory, but i dont' think they'll be too scared of the goyfs.
That's why the red plan is looking more and more appealing to me, however, with 1 volcanic main, I feel we should make room for a ruby.
This would also offer us a wheel of fortune main, wich could be a very nice addition.
(what to cut what to cut, the list is pretty thight)

Another change I'm really contemplating about is -1 duress + 1 thoughtseize, so you get a 3/3 configuration,
however should we insert the wheel, it would probably be a 3/2 (in favor of duress).

Any thoughts on this?

I played this deck past weekend (with some minor tweaks).
Came in 10th of 33 contestants.  (4-0-2)

As far as sideboard goes, I ran this:

4 leyline of the void
2 rebuild
1 hydroblast
1 hurkyll's recall
3 engineered plague
3 dark confidant
1 tendrills of agony

I haven't died once cuz of bob, although he made me sweat at points
but I'm actually not really 100% satisfied with this setup

I also didn't run a massacre since i thought u/w fish was extinct.  Needless to say, I ran into the matchup.
And only won because he made a critical mistake.
So I'm in favor of keeping one massacre in the board.

Has anyone tested the green sb plan?
It looks nice on paper but i didn't  have time to test it myself so far.

darkblasting orchard tokens is futile

sorry to go off topic, plz continue the debate
(personally, I don't think it's worth it)

not to forget,
chalice for 0 does NOT stop their chalice for 1
it has a casting cost of 2!
when it's in play, it has a cc of 0, but at that time it doesn't matter anymore
play null rod

they are indeed not mutually exclusive, but keep in mind that an early void limits a will just as well as a scrying

the first time I heard about twincast, I thought, this card wont see play
because of the simple fact it is a fork, and it doesn't do anything on its own
(if fork was really that good, it would be made to function in a deck)

however, twincasting a time walk should mean game
this situation only comes to mind when playing a Y Win and in that case, it really isn't necessary, cuz you should win no matter what

the one thing people really want to do is twincast an a recall
let's say you get a fow and a blue card, in that case twincast became a uu counterspel cantrip
that isn't that bad, is it?
for the people that hope to get a mana drain and counter the original, uuuu open isn't that common

this may be an incoherent post, but what I'm trying to say is
I don't believe this card is good enough but I would love to see someone convince me that it is

how much I respect dozer's posts, he did not convince me at all (that's before the negative post, for which he earns respect) but was the best I got to see so far
so someone, please break the card, disrupt vintage as it is and make it better (not worse please)

magus has trouble because of its toughness and summoning sickness
if you take their juggernaut they can still smash your face with it
and people won't be ginving their mindslavers to you either
it would be decent if you didn't loose control at eot
but nothing stops you from trying and maybe you'll discover a great new tech
have fun with it

@willow, indeed a good point that the cards come underneath it
however, you still have one in hand and can discard it on top of the intuition with the shapeshifter abbility

ignorance is curable, I read somewhere  and in this case, it costs 2 generic mana

atwa, I have done some testing (with my build as posted) for you

i goldfished 30 games of wich I got
3 turn 2 kills and 4 almost guaranteed losses
but for the most part t3 and 4 are the ones in wich it happens
avarage kill of the 30 games --> 4,5 (losses counted as 10 turns)

the reason for this is, that my build doesn't need SoF to win, intuition does the same thing but faster
just something to think about

intuition is a tutor, graveyardfiller, drawengine all at once and it's even blue
from wich i conclude it would be a good thing to remove a SoF and put an additional intuition in it's spot

for the critics out there, I know goldfishing doesn't prove anything, but I'm in my exams, so feel free to do the accual testing yourselves and let me know

as far as my conclusion on the deck,
my competitive opinion hasn't changed, I don't think this deck is good enough to win something
but my non-competitive opinion has changed, this is really a fun deck to play, much more fun then oath

I really thought I made my post clear

I'm not saying this is a good deck
I'm not saying it is a good idea
I'm not saying it will win anything
I'm not saying I'm the best magic player in the world and... well, I ain't saying that much accually

I just tried to make the FEB deck a little better
but this is getting a bit off topic, and I don't want the guys thread closed

seeing as my decklist is considered 'close to optimal' it isn't that bad  however I kind of miss the worldly tutor, he could really be helpfull, but i don't want to screw around with the draw, also impulse seems like a good idea

but I wanna hear from atwa if we are helping him or that we are sucking the joy out of magic

tps = the perfect storm

on the difference, tps is I'm going to combo out safely, mdt is I won the dieroll, I'm going to the next round

but there are better experts on the subject who will hopefully explain it for you,

have fun playing

because he doesn't want to play oath, he want to play his FeB

however, I do feel that playing like oath is a better plan for this deck
(I have totally no expirience with this deck and don't consider myself a good player (well I do in my community  )

as pointed out before, this deck wants to be combo
and combo has to be fast, this isn't really, well let's say, it isn't going to be pulled over for speeding

so instead of going to tell you  what to do (how should I know?) I'll be summing up some random thoughts that occured to me

first of, 3 colors? I really don't think your manabase is stable for it, why not go UG
then you can use 6 fetches and they can all fetch the most part of your lands
phage is a kill condition, use it, loose some of the others
also, up the power level, off color moxen really help
you need creatures to discard so you can search for creatures to discard, why not use some that can be helpfull
wonder seems like a good idea, you can pitch it to FOW as well
you lose some turors without black, but green has creature-tutors...
intuition/ak             bazaar/(squee)        ??
aether vial also came to mind, free birds and the like can't be bad (you can avoid summoning sickness)
19 mana sources is TOO low
wall of roots...., it's an early blocker, but do you need an early blocker?


i just made a decklist on how I see it
let me remind all of you again, I'm trying to help, not anything else

5 mox
1 lotus
4 tropical
6 fetches
4 ESG
2 island
3 birds
3 phage
4 survival
4 shapeshifter
3 wonder
4 fow
4 daze
4 brainstorm
1 recall
1 time walk
3 intuition
4 accumulated knowledge

with this i did some goldfishing and got a t3 kill a couple of times

i hoped this helped in any way, if the way was that's really not how it has to be done, then it helped too

I will also admit I have no shame  

like 3 hours after I stated I play with my own builds, I began testing Z's build (since I believe he knows what he's doing)

OMFG it's a great deck, I thought I would really miss the red, especially the monkey and dart, but this is much better

however, I had some "comments" based on testing, I think 24 is maybe just one mana source too low, but the petal truly kicks ass

I also thought about the comments ppl made about meddling mage, and it has one advantage, it would be something I'd want to pitch to FOW

I also love the matchup against stax, I used to think that ppl who played stax were evil creations of pure darkness, now I think they're funny
sacred ground really shines, but nonetheless, when I myself play stax, I still think of myself as a mean being thursty for blood

yet again sliding off topic---

could we change 1 or 2 scryings? gifts ungiven comes to mind. something blue would be nice (isn't it always) I also like the idea of having one in the SB, so you can Cwish for it, but I'm not really that big fan of having 3 Cwishes main

as i'm seeing it, changing 2 scryings to something blue, we could change the swamp.  i never want to get a swamp from a fetch the first turn to play duress, but being unable to cast drain next turn
on the upside, what I really love about scrying:
-you get cards at instant speed,
-wich can't be stolen,
-for a reasonable cost,
-you can remove the artifacts in your grave, protecting your artis in play from opposing welders
-and desposing of that really important instant so Cwish can get it again

well, I think that's enough from me for now, until we meet again

I'll admit I play a different build then zherbus
(cuz I like to play with my own builds (not that they're better, I just think that's part of the fun))
in mine I think there is a lot more synergie to go with the explosives (wastelands, tinker, tolarian)
it just came to me as it was a real control card and wanted to hear why cap Z didn't think it was good enough to include
magic's a game of wich I think everyone can learn more about each day,
and seeing on how people don't dislike EE, I think I've become a better player over the last year (asuming ppl that are on TMD know what they're doing)

however, I'll state why I think that in the most important cases EE could be better then CW, you can almost always put it down first turn, for one (welder) or two (oath)
in the welder example, it costs you 3 mana to blow up one (or possibly more)  welders (and their sol ring and mana vault etc), it'll cost you 4 to do that with CW (only one welder), also, with CW, you're playing 2 spells if you want to spread them over time there's a bigger chance of a counter disrupting your plans
it also gives the benefit to play around chalice's and is a cheap way of getting rid of them

offcourse I do recognize the flexibility that CW grants, as they are also included in my personal build and probably won everybody who used them correctly a lot of games

but i don't want to go any further off topic seeing how this tread is among the more enjoyable on tmd, so i'll just shut up (for now)

@zherbus: you seem to be getting thrown a lot to your head after the articles, don't let it get to you, you've done a kick ass job (as always)

but I also have a question (not critisisme)
why don't you use engineered explosives?  in my modest opinion this cards rocks, (to make this post confusing) it's a proactive - reactive card, who's funtion can change to what you need (I have never ever found myself in a position that when I drew it, it was a dead draw, unless I had allready won the game

again, this is not critisisme, I just want to understand why you don't think it's worth a slot or two

what I don't like about the deck are its situational cards:

-engineered plague only does something if the opponent plays with multiple creatures of the same type (i understand you hate welder, but there are better solutions)

-tormods crypt, yes, it can save your ass, or it can do nothing at all, don't think it should be maindeck

-moat, you assume they'll hurt you with non flying creatures, and that you are not already dead until you can cast this....

-jinxed idol; i can see how this could possibly win games, prob is, you have to sac a creature, eiher you have to sac your angel, wich is much faster and nets you life or you have to cycle decree, that are 2 cards, a token and at least 6 mana for a very slow clock wich doesn't have to be permanent, and if you use it to mess with welder, why don't they just weld it?

-with 5 strip effects, I think 1 crucible isn't enough, also, maybe some extra mana accelerant

-4 exalted.....I just don't know, it can be a great creature (if you can cast/flip it) but people are running cranial extraction these days, one of those and all you're angels are gone, if you like oldschool, why not put in a morphling?

but hey, this is just me talking, I've been wrong before
the important thing is that you enjoy playing
hope I could be of help

you also could pitch a weenie to kill a welder
don't know if it's going to see play, but it could be done

but back to the core, nice article

if you're using flunkies I would suggest raging goblin as well (great with pile too)

however I don't really see what the bomb part of price of progress is when you're planning on destroying their mana base first

fork is unrestricted now, but don't put too many maindeck since it does nothing on its own

personally I think 4 strip effects is sufficiant to run CoW
also, with it in play, you can abuse fetchlands and don't need the CoB

to increase the potential 1ste turn CoW drop I added both mana vault and a lone dark ritual (works wonders with mind twist too   )

skeletal is a great draw engine (there comes that ritual again) but the real upside is that you can remove things from your grave
versus welders this means your already destroyed artifacts, so they can't screw you on that point

also I think orim's thunder is great, you kill an arti and destroy their welder or juggernout in the process, sweet deal

and last but certainly not least, I would also really considder stifle
there is nothing that card can't do (mindslaver, storm, memory jar, cap)

i really like the addition of duress, have been thinking about it for a long time myself, but I can't find anything to cut for it in my build, but I'm sure it can win you games

I'm sorry Pox,

I thought you wanted ppl that think about and test 4cc to make contributions and share ideas

you could've called your topic; i tried an idea from team CAB and want to hear from ppl that it is good (it would've gotten different replies)

the answers to you problems are pretty simple, don't want to lose to wastelands? play basics. can't get ww? don't use cards that have that mana cost

don't diss on ppl who are trying to help each other out with the love of 4cc in their hearts, but maybe you just aren't that good at making friends and I can't judge you for that

if you want to play GU, do so, have fun with it, that's what I'm trying to do

one last note though, vanilla is yummie

I'm really not thrilled with the idea of a GU in my 4cc
i can see the power of recoup, but it is really mana intensive
playing it foy buyback cost so you can activate the y will??

acadamy is great as far as i'm concerned

cranial crossed my mind quit a few times, and it could be great, lobotomy could also be great (pitch fodder) but both of them not consistantly are
i was thinking about one of my all time favorites, jester's cap (tinker) but don't see that running either

intuition can be compared with GU, cuz you don't have to get 3 same cards (30%), however for only one mana more, you get to keep 2 of 4 (50%)

I'll post my decklist so you can all comment and make contributions to it
i use less basics cuz I haven't found the need for them (crucible is crucial)
but sure am willing to change this when i feel it needs to be done


broken(5):
1 y will
1 tinker
1 balance
1 time walk
1 mind twist

artifarti(4):
2 crucible
2 EE (so good)

cuz it seemed like a good idea(2):
2 dismanteling blow  (thinking of changing to orim's thunder)

counter(10):
4 FoW
4 mana drain
2 misdirection

tutor/draw(11):
1 mystical
1 demonic
1 FoF
1 stroke (FoW fodder and draw (not to affraid of other decks runing Mis)
1 ancestral
2 skeletal
4 brainstorm

win(2):
1 colossus
1 decree

mana(26):
1 strip
2 waste
4 fetch
2 tundra
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
2 island
1 swamp
1 city of brass
1 tolarian academy
7 solomox
1 mana vault
1 dark ritual       the last two to improve 1st turn crucible and they are just really great accelerants for all the x's

sb(15)
1 decree
2 stp
1 vampiric
1 gush
1 hydroblast
2 stifle
2 fire/ice
2 reb
1 shattering pulse
2 rar

sideboard needs a lot of tweaking, I know
I also would really like to have the sifle's maindeck, what don't they do?
stop a slaver from screwing your game, stall an oath, FoWfodder, stop waste/fetch, they are awsome, but I don't see what to cut
and don't say the dismantlings, I'm not going out there without artiremoval

Zherbus is so smart!
Off course I'm only saying this because I was thinking exactly the same thing.

Sphere and Rit got to go.
they make playing magic no fun for the opponent nor the player (at least not after a game or 3 (of testing)),

for MW however, I don't see the need to get rid of it, off course after the release of mirrodin it gained tremendous strength, but the only time it is good, is when you play with a very artifact heavy deck, when do people play with an artifact heavy deck? when they can abuse the deck, what makes them abuse it? WELDER
this card should be restricted long before considering MW, but I'm guessing they won't do that

as for the suggestion of using AT, indeed, they can be very nice, but taking 2 every turn can make life totals matter again (good/bad??)

someone said 4cc players complain the most
probably true, I'll give myself up as an example
but the only reason we are doing that is because 4cc still has something that sais: I have to be able to win every duel, not I have to win in a fully powered enviroment playing only against the decks that did well last tournament and hope I luck out all the good players with inventive decks
4cc is a deck that requires a lot of skill, anybody can go MW +3s go