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1  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Article] Analysis of the Restriction of Gifts and Restriction Policy Genera on: June 10, 2007, 12:49:06 am
Gush also loses most of its restrictability if Will is banned.   Fact definitely so as well.

Please man, let's stay "on topic". I mean, on restriction topic. Forget about advocating for Will's banning, please, please... You've been doing this for years now and the subject of banning something is another long, long discussion not pertinent here.

ps: just to add here, I'm one of those guys who thinks the thinner the List is, the better the game gets. So restricting something should be very, very, very, (I repeat) very well based. Like something you can't run from.
2  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Article] Analysis of the Restriction of Gifts and Restriction Policy Generally on: June 10, 2007, 12:18:21 am
Well, what I was linking about DCI behavior is that they were changing things slowly. I mean, unrestricting one (relevant) thing at a time, y'know?
What struck me is that after 2 blank announcements, they suddenly change the situation of 5 cards. And at least two very relevant cards: Gush and Gifts. I mean, my guess is that they restricted Gifts in order to unrestrict Gush. Something tells me that an environment with 4 Gush + 4 Gifts (both very good with Y.Will) is not healthy. What I'm trying to say, Smennen, is that well, if they have been doing a great job in the restricted list for a few years, why would they be wrong now? Maybe they're, again, smarter and more cautelous than us.
Anyway, what I think was the "right" thing to do was unrestrict Gush and simply see where it would get. Vintage adapts very fast. They would obviously know if Gifts + Gush was a explosive combination, or anything like that.
It's obviously very, very COOL that they're willing to shake things up like this once in a while.
But well, they should shake only a side at a time. Probably wait to see where Flash and FS would get.

Repeating and resuming:
What I would've done right know is:
- Unrestrict Key, Vise and Twist (maybe Gush, if they really think it's worth it). Wait 3 months to see where FS and flash lead the format. Then, if needed be, restrict Gifts.

What can they do now:
- Do the same as above, but backwards - well, it isn't the end of the world. The Restricted list isn't irrevocable. They can simply watch the metagame evolve with Flash, FS, 4xGushes and no Gifts and then, in a few months, just say "Yeah, let's unrestrict Gifts again"; or "My bad, Gush is still too powerful", etc, etc, etc
Well, my 2 cents
3  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: New Card Discussion: Lotus Bloom on: August 24, 2006, 09:54:24 pm
Remember you opponent has 4 turns to play CotV and counter this. Or Trinisphere.
It's an interesting ability, but seems kinda unuseful.
4  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: Sideboarding with Gifts on: July 28, 2006, 12:33:13 am
hmm... ive seen this list somewhere =P
You probably shouldnt be comparing anything to my day one list..

to be honest the chalice is strictly for Grim long, because if you ask a good gifts player, a good grim long player owns you. A chalice at one or zero is pretty much GG. I played Ray in a small tourny last weekend and he was playing TPS' Grim long.
he was on the play game three and he duressed my hand. - Tendrils, Lotus, Ruby, Mis-d, Sea, Chalice, brainstorm. He Obv took the chalice, and i ripped tinker, tinkered for chalice, and i won the game.

Bringing in Chalice Against full powered decks isnt really a good play = (. the deck should already beat control decks, so why would you board out good cards for mana denial?

Chalice also pwns ICBM oath for sundering titans = P

Deep analysis is the shitay. I cut wish day two, after noticing how big of a scrub i am, and i still did awesome!. The wish just slows you down. If you're in position to "combo" off with Tinker 2x time walk, then you should have already won. Me (being a person whose played Gifts forever) personally have times where if the tendrils was main over Bwish, id be a peice of power or two richer = {   . I cut Bwish, and i still have Deep in the board. its one of the best card advantage cards in the game, and no-one ever counters it.

Storm count is never a problem. The problem is mana building. The only time i cast rebuild is to net mana. Most of the time i cycle it. NO LIE. Chain of vapor is such a better card. This version is much more aggressive, and i am much more of an aggressive player.

This is obviously your list. I'm making this thread exactly over it because 4 CotV SB grabbed my attention.
That's because other Gifts list don't rely on CotV for the Long matchup. Since CotV takes 4 slots, is it worthy? Is there a better SB plan against combo thatn that?

I also believe the deck is not that strong against SS. A 2nd Pyroclasm would be crucial, and Pithing Needles too (for Wastelands). What's your plan against SS?

About Dart: I believe it's better than Fire/Ice because it can be used twice and because you can fetch it with Gifts for a IMEDIATE Welder kill. This is important.

I was thinking about taking 1 Underground Sea out for a 5th Island or a Swamp (probably the island). What do you think?
5  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: "go big or go home" Burning Slaver; Decklist on: July 28, 2006, 12:25:52 am
I'm not suggesting cutting it.  I'm just saying that in general, if you're grabbing it with Gifts you're making a mistake.

It's much better late game, when it can either recover a bad gifts for you, or become lethal off one of the extremely good but not necessarily game ending gifts piles like Ancestral Recall/Time Walk.

I agree. Taking Recoup is only good if you plan winning just after that (by using Recoup, of course). Other than that, any tutor is better.
6  Eternal Formats / Creative / Sideboarding with Gifts on: July 25, 2006, 11:40:54 pm
Yeah, I know there are several threads with this name, I just couldn't come up with a better one.
This thread is solely to discuss sideboarding with this particular version:
Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Artifact Creatures
1 Darksteel Colossus

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain Of Vapor
4 Force Of Will
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Lava Dart
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Repeal
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
1 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Recoup
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Basic Lands
3 Island

Basic Snow Lands
1 Snow-covered Island

Lands
3 Flooded Strand
1 Library Of Alexandria
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
4 Chalice Of The Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
2 Rack And Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rushing River
1 Deep Analysis
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils Of Agony

My questions are:
- Are the 4 CotV that importante? When do you side them in?
- No Pithing Needles.... how to cover Fishes matchups, since this is already running only 1 Pyroclasm
- Is DA that great? I never got to use it to its greatest extent. Meaning I would never Wish for it.
- Which leads to: Nate played a version with no Burning Wish, but a Tendrils MD. I can't even think of taking the Wish out, but is the Tendrils in a good idea?
- Is Sundering Titan a good SB choice for the mirror or vc Slaver?
- Does anyone still play 1 Duress SB? DO you find it useful?

That comes to an important question: is it any good playing utility Burning Wishable card in the SB? Meaning that if you Wish you're giving up you secondary (or primary?) win condition (Tendrils). Isn't a Wish utility SB only useful if you're playing Tendrils MD?

(sorry if this isn't the place of this discussion. I can barely see the diference between the Open and the Improvement forum in this case)
7  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: Mask Control, Is this as good as it gets? on: June 28, 2006, 12:36:06 pm
The first thing is: Add 1 Sensei's Divining Top. It is great with Confidant.
I would take 1 Mana Leak out and add a Misdirection.
Also try to find a slot for Imperial Seal.
The main problem is Nulll Rod. You simply can't win over a Null Rod. That's something unacceptable. You have a sole Echoing Truth against that. I don't have a sollution right now. I'll test the deck and answer again later.
Also, your sideboard isn't helping against Rod. I would take the negators out for 2 Cabal Therapies and Tinker - Colossus. take the Crypts out for 3 cremate + 1 wasteland. And take the duress out for another Wasteland.

EDIT: Mana Crypt is obvious. Out with 1 off-color moxen.
8  Eternal Formats / Creative / [Single Card Discussion] Coldsnap: Requisition on: May 28, 2006, 09:11:58 pm
This is one of the first Coldsnap cards to be confirmed.



Requisition - 5UU
Instant
You can remove two blue cards from of your hand instead of paying it's mana cost.
Gain control of the target noncreature spell. You can choose new targets to that spell. (If that card is an artifact or an enchantment, it comes into play under your control.)

Is a mixture of Misdirection and Twincast.
The question is if it's viable.
I understand the CA loss is huge, and that may mather a lot. Also, I understand it's probably too conditional. But think: it steals everything Misdirection steals plus: Time Walk, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, Tutors, Gifts Ungiven, Stax's artifacts (so you can sacrifice to Smokestack), Duress, Rack and Ruin, Pithing Needle, and un-misdirectable draws, like Skeletal Scrying, and plus a lot more I'm not remembering right now.
That said, the cards effect is absolutely amazing.
The only questionable fact is if the CA loss is too much. It's obviously not a 4-of, but I consider it to be an auto include, as a 1-2 of.
Also, giving it a deeper analysis, the card makes it harder to win a counter war so it can resolve, since you're removing 2 blues from your hand. So if your opponent has a FoW backup, you're probably losing a counter war you should win otherwise.
Is that bad enough? Will it make the cut?

(moderators: I don't know if I can post a picture with another's site name in it. I've seen nothing about it on the site's rules. If I can't, please remove the picture from the thread. If I can, please remove this stupid sentence.  Very Happy)
9  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: Life from the void on: December 29, 2005, 09:07:42 pm
Man, you should check the old Nether Void lists.
If you're playing 3 Voids, you really need a deck that works under it.
And by doing that, you need cheap spells.
That said, things like Duplicant are terrible, since you have to pay 9 mana to it. And since you're replaying a land everyturn, you will take a lot of time to do that.

2nd: if your opponents play first, your mana denial strategy is gone. And since this is the only strategy your deck has, your pretty much done.
Again: spending 5 mana every turn with LftL is not smart. Crucible is MUCH better than that. Really. I know you like Loam and won't give up that idea that soon, but it's really not that great.
Get rid of useless exploration and put some Kegs in, so you can take moxen out.
another important thing: you NEED a deck with cheap spells and your playing 4 CotV. What does that mean? Think about it.
Why not moxen at all? Because of Null Rod?! The hell with that! Play at least G and B moxen and Lotus Petal.
last thing: Your kill condition is Living Wish?! Mishra's Factory hello!
(I guess you meant Factory instead of Workshps right?)
10  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: [Single Card Discussion] Sarcomancy on: December 27, 2005, 05:11:38 pm
I don't think playing Echoing Truth on a Sarcomancy is a very spectacular play. If you want the extra token creature that bad there are more effective ways of doing it (heck, Cloudstone Curio does a better job). I can't think of many situations where I would want to throw away a good answer to a lot of problems just to make an extra 2/2 creature.
Well, it would really be stupid to throw away a Truth like that. But remember you could have 2-4 Sarcomancy in play. Then, a Echoing Truth turns it into a swarm. That said, I don't think you should run it in this deck. You should run 1-2 Misdirecions and use opposing Truths for that.

So, a list I think is better is:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Strip Mine
1 Swamp
2 Island
R Black Lotus
R Mox Sapphire
R Mox Pearl
R Mox Jet

4 CotV / Null Rod
2 Swords to Plowshares
R Time Walk
R Ancestral Recall
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
R Demonic Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
2 Misdirection

4 Sarcomancy
3 Dark Confidant
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Meddling Mage
2 Stormscape Apprentice

(haven't tested it though)
11  Eternal Formats / Global Vintage Tournament Reports and Results / Re: The Official SCG P9 Rochester Update Thread on: December 19, 2005, 07:34:03 am
sorry to ask again, but where are the decklists? anyone has a link to them? At least the Top 8...
12  Eternal Formats / Global Vintage Tournament Reports and Results / Re: The Official SCG P9 Rochester Update Thread on: December 13, 2005, 12:46:37 pm
Where are the decklists?
Anyone has the 2 Gifts?
Are they coming late this week?

Man, it was so great when they were online the same day.......
13  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Gifts with Flame-Vault on: December 13, 2005, 12:52:15 am
I guess Belcher has one advantage over Vault: you can play with Severance SB and if you do that you can Burning Wish for it without having to spend RR to win right away. So it frees up a slot in the MD, which is really, really relevant
14  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Bazaar Oath on: December 09, 2005, 10:38:14 pm
The strip "lock" seems to be largely irrelevent to the performance of the deck.

I think upping the synergy with fastbond/exploration as Brutha suggests is probably correct. (wastes will be forthcoming as soon as room is found)

On a side note, Small Gods kicks ass.

I'm convinced four loams is a neccessity. t1 players seem to have a really shaky grasp on the whole redundancy thing.

It's just because we don't need redundancy 'cause we have tutors. And also drawing a card that's dead in multiples equals losing a game.
15  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Gifts from the Loam on: December 08, 2005, 11:00:28 pm
I'm really not thinking of removing CotV's.
Anyway, Top is fantastic here, since it allows you to draw only cards you can play (with CotV on the table) or see exactly what you're going to dredge.
Also, Frantic Search is back. Just because TfK does almost the same thing, but F. Search is free.
16  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Gifts from the Loam on: December 08, 2005, 11:24:09 am
I made some recent changes to the deck.
I realized that with so many islands, I should play more blue. So Regrowth, Darkblast and Entomb would remain out.
I also realized I needed more lands.
So:
-1 Crop Rotation
-1 Gifts (3 is probably too much)
-1 Tropical Island
+1 LoA
+1 Flooded Strand
+1 Sensei's Divining Top

The top is much, much better than Crop Rotation, since late game it's also a nice draw, and it's on-color. The tropical turned into an island, since Riftstone Portal can take the green mana producing role. The other change was taking out 1 Gifts and adding a LoA. Gifts is the most expensive spell in the deck, and LoA helps you drawing lots of cards. This is the change I like the less, since maybe it would be good to cut the 3rd Gifts for a Intuition as a cheaper gifts. And LoA is in testing stage. It's not that great here, since 7 cards is hard to achieve with BoB. But after the LftL engine goes on, it's not that hard at all. Anyway, anyone playtesting this?
17  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: vintage truths.list on: December 08, 2005, 10:11:04 am
Quote
Principle #8: For the most part, Spells with a casting cost of four or more are unplayable unless they are Blue, Artifact, or have an Alternate Casting Cost.
True, True, True.

Principle #8: Spells with a casting cost of four or more are unplayable unless they win you the game.
Truth.  The founding principle I used when I started playing.  First unpowered I played my own UB Sh*t deck before I knew TMD ever existed.  Fact or Fiction was about the biggest costing thing in the deck,  Shadowmage got my card advantage and FoW cleared the way.  It may be jank but it is truth on every level.  (Cards that have an alternate cost are considered costed at the alternate cost)
Yeah, Smokestack costs 4 and doesn't immediately wins you the game. Same with Uba Mask, Juggernaut, FoW, etc, etc....

A resolved Smokestack or Ubamask that isn't dealt with will mean the game very quickly by itself though.  Juggernaut is the Workshop exception which I was ignorant to when I started and to be fair, a workshop will mean game if it isn't dealt with.

Well, from that point of view, everything will mean game if it isn't dealt with. We call those cards "threats"
18  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: vintage truths.list on: December 07, 2005, 10:41:01 pm
Quote
Principle #8: For the most part, Spells with a casting cost of four or more are unplayable unless they are Blue, Artifact, or have an Alternate Casting Cost.
True, True, True.

Principle #8: Spells with a casting cost of four or more are unplayable unless they win you the game.
Truth.  The founding principle I used when I started playing.  First unpowered I played my own UB Sh*t deck before I knew TMD ever existed.  Fact or Fiction was about the biggest costing thing in the deck,  Shadowmage got my card advantage and FoW cleared the way.  It may be jank but it is truth on every level.  (Cards that have an alternate cost are considered costed at the alternate cost)
Yeah, Smokestack costs 4 and doesn't immediately wins you the game. Same with Uba Mask, Juggernaut, FoW, etc, etc....
19  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: vintage truths.list on: December 07, 2005, 06:53:49 pm
2 years and a half ago, Stephen Menendian wrote an article called "The Ten Principles Of Type One where it talks about ten "rules". I think we should try to make this new truths.list closer to principles rather than "Pithing Needle is a SB card" thing.

Principle # 1: Every deck uses Black Lotus and at least one Mox.
This is a rule. Period.

Principle #2: Fetchlands have fundamentally changed Type One.
I don't know how long you guys played, but mana bases will never be the same after Onslaught

Principle #3 (and perhaps the most important): Force of Will is the Glue that holds T1 together.
No doubts about that. It stays the same. FoW IS THE most important card in the format.

Principle #4: Unless you are planning on winning in the first few turns, you must have a way to deal with Library of Alexandria.
Yeah, this can be taken out. LoA is not the card it used to be...

Principle #5: Swords to Plowshares is the Best Targeted Removal Spell ever printed.
Again. True. Period. But that's just like the Needle being a sideboard card stuff. Not a principle, just a fact.

Principle #6: Blood Moon is Vintage's Best Hoser.
This is another one I guess should be changed. A best hoser depends on metagame, so it shouldn't be a principle.

Principle #7: Red Elemental Blast is the Best Sideboard Card ever printed.
Agreed. He says this because blue is the best color, which is also true. I mean a principle could be "You should alwalys have blue on your deck. If you don't, ask yourself if you really have a reason not to."

Principle #8: For the most part, Spells with a casting cost of four or more are unplayable unless they are Blue, Artifact, or have an Alternate Casting Cost.
True, True, True.

Principle #9: Hybrid Strategies are currently the most successful in Type One.
Stays the same 2 years after and will keep on that a long, long time.

Principle #10: Scour through the card pool. Find the technology to beat your local metagame. It's worth it.
This is more a tip than a principle. But what he meant is that Type 1 is NEVER EVER a format where there can be no innovation. He is also saying that Vintage is ALWAYS about metagame. Always. And that's a principle.


20  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Gifts from the Loam on: December 07, 2005, 06:23:47 pm
I sleeved this up and played around with it last night, and I like it. You can just play it as you would a regular gifts deck, of course, OR if things start to go badly you can use the lftl engine to build card advantage.

@FFY: From my meager testing, I would say that Tormod's crypt would suck pretty badly. However, no decks that I know of play it maindeck, so you don't need to worry about it game one. Game Two, you have pithing needles from the board, and there's always the mighty shaman.

I'm not sure I like the chalices. Sure they are tinkerbait, and can slow down opponents if you are on the play, but I just think the 4 slots they take up may be better served as something else. Also, they make for easy sideboarding game two if you are on the draw. And I don't like Frantic Search either, because it is too situational. If you dod decide to run the 4x Chalice, I think thirst for knowledge would be alot better here. I'm going to work very hard on cutting something for an entomb. That card belongs in this deck.
The main thing about this deck is that CotV gives you time to abuse LftL. You can easily play through a 2 Cotv for 0 and 1 like something like GrimLong and then simply win when you want. CotV is crucial to the deck, although people tend to think it's strange. They also are tinkerbait, bazaarbait, storm uppers and academy friends.
I'm starting to think Frantic Search should be cut too. But TfK is not as good as it seems here. BoB does it's job right. I would cut it for Regrowth, Fastbond, Echoing Truth or Darkblast. Blasts may be needed MD depending on your metagame, since Welder and Shaman really hurt you.
As for Tormod's Crypt: the card really hurts, but you can dodge it easily by playing standard Gifts way. You just can't Dredge like crazy. But a Crypt's activation hurts you most only if Tinker, Will and/or lots of moxen are on the graveyard. Besides that it just cuts your LftL engine.  And remember CotV for 0 is always nice. I'm planning of adding 1-2 Annul SB too, against opposing 1st turn Chalices, Crypts, Needles, etc.
21  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Gifts from the Loam on: December 06, 2005, 02:12:51 pm
Why Chalices.  I love Chalices when I am playing against Gifts because it slows down their Yawg Win-->Tendrils kill a ton.  How do they help you?
]
Nowadays Chalices are basically great against any archetype. Slowing your opp down with a 1st turn CotV for 0 is priceless. Also, this let's your combo matchup be a lot easier, and against Oath too (if you make an early 2 drop). Aside from being one of the best disruption spells in Vintage, when played by you it's almost harmless. You can take it out with Shaman, Tinker or Rebuild once you're about to win, and you can easily recicle useless stuff with Bazaar. Remember this isn't a regular Gifts deck, so winning with Tendrils with a CotV down is completely possible.

My suggestion would be to cut the Frantic Search for a Drain. Frantic Search is just bad. You are trying to build a Bazaar deck... you don't need an extra discard-outlet.

I'm a Dragon player myself and I play with LftL and Bazaar (I play four though) and I never have problems with getting the right stuff in my graveyard. This is partly due to Intuition but mostly because of the Bazaar. The only reason I play Compulsion is Pithing Needle on a Bazaar (or Wasteland + Crucible).

Otherwise I would cut Skeletal Scrying. I'm wondering how many times this card is actually useful. The whole point of the card is to take advantage of Mana Drain and you aren't playing a full set of those...

I totally agree with you about Scrying. I was just testing it and even FoF is better than that. I'm definetly cutting it.
About Frantic Search: you contradict yourself. First you say I don't need the extra discard, then you say you use Compulsion in Dragon mainly as an extra discard. I also fear Pithing Needle for Bazaar and 1 Search helps that. But the main thing about F.Search isn't the discard. It does 3 things very well: it digs 2 cards and discards; it untaps lands, generating mana with Academy, colored mana with duals, a 2nd Bazaar activation and an untapped Boseiju the turn it comes into play; and, one thing you must remember, it lets you dredge after you draw step. That's extremely important.
One thing I tested MD and it's great is Darkblast. Dredging for 6 is always good here.
I'm currently thinking of testing MD:
+ 1 Burning Wish (-1 Tendrils)
+ 1 Darkblast
+ 1 Regrowth
+ 1 Entomb
+ 1 Gush
+ 1 Fastbond
+ 1 Island
And the only things I feel I could cut are:
Frantic Search, Crop Rotation, 1 Gifts, Deep Analysis. (scrying is already a Drain)
Oh, and the Mox Pearl is currently a Lotus Petal for testing.
That said, the SB needs work. Glacial Chasm is more a test a bet. But I guess it can work. The 2nd DA is probably not that good, and could come out for a Eng. Explosives. The 2nd Darkblast is really useless and could become something like Pyroclasm if Wish goes MD.
I ask you guys to test the deck and see what you think.
22  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Gifts from the Loam on: December 06, 2005, 09:03:05 am
Gifts is so much more powerful than LftL. If you can resolve Gifts, you should just be able to win. There's no point to setting up a second card advantage engine when Gifts by itself can end the game.
I agree Gifts is much more powerful. And this deck is capacle of winning right after resolving Gifts. If you've played Gifts you know that it isn't every Gifts you play a winning one. There are lots of matches when you just Gifts for mana or card drawing, etc. This deck lets you do that better. You can set the Bazaar / Strip engine, which, together with CotV and Shaman (I'm probably adding a 2nd in the SB), is a mana denial strategy that Gifts never had before. I know Gifts can win on the spot and will do so if it can, but it's just not that simple.

Agreed. I consider LftL to be 'a nice little extra', not a goal in itself.

Why only three Mana Drain? You are relying on this card to cast your more expensive spells and help you create some tempo.
Yes, LftL is not a goal.
Why 3 Drains. Well lack of room actually. The 3 slots I would cut for something right now are Scrying, DA, Crop Rotation and Frantic Search. Search is important since it's your discard when you don't have Bazaar, and generates lots of mana with Academy; DA shines in control mirrors and even in other matchups, but is kinda slow; Scrying is excelent and is better with Drain mana, but being black is something not that nice; Crop Rotation is also excellent, since this deck can get screwed by an early Wasteland, but it's also useless mid-game, when you already have LftL engine going.
That said, I can't decide right now what to take out... in fact, I'm trying to add another land to the deck. You see, this deck has 16 lands but 3 of them are not mana: BoB, Sandbar and Portal. Portal is mana actually, but you don't want to draw it in your opening hand, unless you got Bazaar and a mox with it. Drawing Sandbar on the opening hand is terrible and actually forces you to mulligan sometimes. I tought of cutting it but it so good with LftL I don't think it's worth. You should count this as a cantrip not a land. That reduces the decks lands to 15, and that's not much...
23  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Gifts from the Loam on: December 06, 2005, 01:53:18 am
I've been testing the LftL + BoB engine for some time now. The first deck to prove it was worth in Vintage was the Wild Zombies aggro build. After that, a topic in this forum opened the gates to an yet unproved way to abuse the engine: in a combo-control deck: Oath.
For a little less than 2 weeks I've been working in a similar idea, but in a very different fashion. One thing LftL gives you is a full graveyard. And there's a way to abuse a full graveyard everyone knows, since it's the best card in the game.
That way, another combo-control shell was perfect for a testing.
That said, playing a new version of Gifts is something very hard. That's because Gifts has already been broken, and MD Gifts and the recent Gifts control lists, as well as Gifts Oath, are very good decks. This list has a main difference: it can go broken just as any other list, but it's objective is to disrupt a little more.
Well, let's show what I'm talking about and then I'll talk a little more:

// Lands
    4  Island
    2  Tropical Island
    1  Volcanic Island
    1  Underground Sea
    1  Flooded Strand
    2  Polluted Delta
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Bazaar of Baghdad   
    1  Riftstone Portal
    1  Lonely Sandbar

// Creatures
    1  Darksteel Colossus
    1  Gorilla Shaman
    1  Squee, Goblin Nabob

// Spells
    4  Chalice of the Void
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Lotus Petal (edit: -1 Mox Pearl)
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Life from the Loam
    4  Force of Will
    4  Mana Drain (edit: -1 Scrying, + 1 Drain)
    1  Time Walk
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Tinker
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Crop Rotation
    1  Rebuild
    1  Deep Analysis
    1  Recoup
    1  Frantic Search
    3  Gifts Ungiven
    1  Burning Wish (-1 Tendrils)

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Deep Analysis
SB: 1  Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 2  Oxidize
SB: 1  Glacial Chasm
SB: 2  Ray of Revelation
SB: 1  Darkblast
SB: 3  Pithing Needle
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Echoing Truth
SB: 1  Rack and Ruin
SB: 1  Tendrils of Agony (-1 Darkbalast)

The decks there to use Gifts in order to: Go broken with the already known Tinker / Will / Recoup / Lotus /Time Walk pile.
Or to play a more defensive role against certain decks and go CotV and Gifts for Bazaar / LftL / Squee / D. Analysis or Strip Mine. This pile could change a lot, but basically consisting of Bazaar + LftL.
The deck can do a standard Colossus kill, or a Tendrisl kill via Will or Rebuild, or both. Remember CotV would spoil your Tendrils kill, but Tinker, Shaman and Rebuild can remove the Chalice just in time for your win. (or you can win anyway, since casting Moxen with a CotV in play also ups storm count).
Let's see the card choices:
Lands:
4 island - pretty standard

1 Volcanic, 1 Underground, 2 Tropical - You only need 1 dual of each with Loam. This was originally 1 each but I upped the Tropical because it was very boring to get your only Tropical wasted and then not being able to recur your colored mana.

Strip Mine - LftL recurring Strips is just awesome.

Bazaar of Baghdad (BoB)- I know only 1 Bazaar seems strange, but you really doesn't need anymore than this. Feel free to cut any land except Duals and Academy for a 2nd Bazaar. But I warn you it's good enough with just 1, since your goal is to fetch it with Gifts.

Rifstone Portal - This helps getting LftL online. This will probably open space for cutting the 2nd Tropical and adding a 5th island or 4th fetch. This is crucial since it makes it possible to have a high basics count. This deck relies on green to work, so having 4-5 islands is not that cool, unless you have this little baby.

Lonely Sandbar - I prefer this one over the 2 colorless one. This is really nice with Bazaar and Loam, but don't play with more than one since drawing this in your opening hand is almost always terrible.

Fetchs - only three because Gifts + Loam can get the rest. I'm currently thinking of cutting one for an island.

Creatures
Colossus - Everyone knows this one.

Gorilla Shaman - This is for extra disruption taking out opposing Moxen, CotV and specially that hated Pithing Needle for Bazaar or Strip Mine.

Squee - I tested this without Squee, and you really need one here. It helps with bazaars CA and saves you 1 land per LftL, so you can drop a land every turn. More than 1 would be overkill for only 1 Bazaar.

Draw / Search
Brainstorm, Ancestral Recall - Standard. Remember here they have a special use, since they both are LftL's activations.

Deep Analysis - Tested and this is great with Gifts. Better than FoF in this deck mainly because of BoB.

Frantic Search - Frantic Search is really awesome with Academy and Bazaar. Also helps if you need an extra colored mana from that dual. Helps with the sideboard's Boseiju also.

Skeletal Scrying - With a full graveyard, this is something you will really want. Feel free to change it for a FoF, which may even be better for the fact of being blue. I'm playing Scrying now just to test it out.

Gifts - Was Intuition originally, but became Gifts for the reasons below (see Mana Drain). Fetches the Colossus kill or the LftL engine. Can, as you all know, also get mana, counters, draw, etc, etc, etc.

Utility
Yawgmoth's Will, Recoup, Time Walk, Tinker, Mystical, Demonic - Standard

Counters / Disruption
Fow - standard

Mana Drain - This was originally Duress, but became Drains to enable easier Gifts. Intuition was not being enough, since it was being used as a smaller Gifts and 1 resolved Intuition was not winning games as 1 resolved Gifts. Duresses were also difficult to manage with only 1 Underground Sea.

Chalice of the Void - this really is the real difference in this build. Being able to pull a Chalice for 0 or 1 is deadly against most archetypes. Don't mind playing it for 0 turn one. Bazaar will cycle you useless Moxen and, when it matters, you will play them all again. Also, don't mind Rebuilding, Shaman'ing or Tinkering it away in order to play your full-of-moxen hand. Specially when you play another one right after!

Other
Rebuild - This is your defense against opposing CotV. It also enables your kill once you got your own CotV's online. Never forget it cycles.

Crop Rotation - Dodges Wasteland and gets you Bazaar, Academy, Strip or that dual you miss. Anything more?

Tendrils of Agony - This probably could go sideboard and become a MD Burning Wish. I'm currently playing it MD and never regreting it. Except when it comes in the opening hand. Anyway this isn't that bad. Remember BoB has the marvelous use of transforming useless stuff into cards. Use that.

Life from the Loam (LftL) - Again, you don't need more than one. This enables draws with Bazaars, recurring Strip Mines and Lonely Sandbars cycles. Also makes you almost invulnerable to mid-game Wastelands. Fills your graveyard with cool stuff so your Will can be even bigger.

SB:
SB: 1  Deep Analysis - for mirror controls. Probably getting cut for an Eng. Explosives or another Shaman
SB: 1  Boseiju, Who Shelters All - this shines againt controls. Always board it in against heavy counters.
SB: 2  Oxidize - Pithing Needle sucks.
SB: 1  Glacial Chasm - This land is great, since it buys you the turns you need to win. Drop it, get the land you sacrificed back with Loam, and do your stuff calmly. If it gets wasted, repeat the operation.
SB: 2  Ray of Revelation - Against Oath, of course.
SB: 2  Darkblast - I don't think I really need 2 here. Probably not.
SB: 3  Pithing Needle - You need these. Really need.
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall - Same as Rebuild, but with different CC
SB: 1  Echoing Truth - Permanent removal!
SB: 1  Rack and Ruin - self-explainable

There are somethings I tried in the deck but was not happy with:
Gush - It's nice with Will, but got cut for F.Search
Fastbond - this is awesome if you want to kill with a CotV in play. I played with it but never really used it, so it got axed for Scrying. Could go SB in the 2nd Darkblast spot.
TfK - This is nice here. the problem is that you're already discarding your hand to BoB. Adding another discard effect it not that great.
Regrowth - Couldn't find room for it. But is definetly something worth having. Probably cutting the F.Search or Scrying for it sometime.
LoA - With Bazaar, LoA is not always useful. Also it's not good to up the non-basic count.
Entomb - Entomb would be great in this deck. As Regrowth, I couldn't find the place to put it. That means it's not obligatory, but would be really nice to fetch LftL or Riftstone Portal instant speed.
Scroll Rack - Also trades extra lands for cards, Parfait style. But it's not that great since once you shuffle you lose you dear lands... It also perishes to a Null Rod, which is bad!

Playing the deck is simple: you can win with Colossus as soon as you can, standard-gifts way; or win through a large Tendrils, helped by Rebuild and /or Yawg.Will.
The first thing you should do is get your Gifts mana up. Choosing what will be the first Gifts is crucial. Against any control, the best thing it to play the LftL / Bazaar one, together with anything you think is needed (Portal for mana, Strip for disruption, DA for CA, Squee if you're going for the CA plan).
Since you got nothing MD to take Welder out, he's your main enemy. Against slaver the CotV for 1 is nice. Against Stax you probably want the 0 one before, since you will have to Rebuild to win anyway, so you're probably going the Tendrils route. Your main problem in the first game is Oath, since there's almost nothing to do to stop him if he resolves Oath turns 1-2 with Orchard. SB you have the Glacial Chasm and the Ray of Revelation. Use them.
Well, I won't go any further now 'cause it's 5am here and I'm really tired.
I'll talk about the matchups later, if you guys are interested.
That's it, hope you all can have fun with the first Green Draw Engine ever! (ok, Sylvan Library also was. Oh, and Recycle. Af, and Abundance... anyway, you got it)
24  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Wild Zombies on: December 05, 2005, 02:12:38 pm
This deck is a lot of fun and I'm trying to throw together a budget version.
Can anyone suggest a replacement for Bazaars? Even if i have to splash another color?

Thanks in advance,

Grim
Cephalid Coliseum can replace Bazaar, but it's SLOW.

I would try a Riftstone Portal, so your Bazaars can add mana too.
Crop Rotation is also great, since it makes your Draw engine more reliable and dodges wasteland, which is important.
And the big thing: have you ever thought of adding 4 CotV? It's a great tempo card that can slow your opp down while you beat him to death. Maybe taking out 2 Last Rites, 1 Therapy and 1 Death Spark... Bazaar has also a great sinergy with CotV since you can discard your unuseful stuff at will.
25  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Travelling Time with TimeBandits.dec on: December 05, 2005, 01:58:49 pm
I would try Top out, since it improves all your draws..
I really stand for Tfk. Top is not CA, and witha  deck that needs to keep it's threat count high, drawing more cards is always the way to go. And TfK helps Welder to be more powerful. It also makes 3 fusillades too much, since you can draw them.
In fact, I just realized the deck's mono-red. That makes TfK not an option... But since this is a prison deck, maybe Sphere of Resistance could be a on-color option.
The thing is: Is adding a 2nd color a viable option or not?
26  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Travelling Time with TimeBandits.dec on: December 05, 2005, 11:54:48 am
This deck has nothing to draw cards. Don't you feel it should have? I mean, once your hand empties, how do you get online again? Suggest taking the Juggies out for TfK's
27  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Bazaar Oath on: December 04, 2005, 10:53:11 am
I mean I tested this engine in another shell, but I find it to be unworthy unless you're making the Bazaar discards into CA (like with Squee or Madness). Any other way you're paying 1G to draw 1 card (skip your draw, pay 1G to get 3 lands, use Bazaar to draw 2 and discard the 3 lands or anything useless = the 2 cards you draw with bazaar are the card you skipped drawing and an extra 1). This means it digs very little.
Another way of thinking is that every card in your graveyard is also CA. That's what I'm trying to do and I might post my results soon. My problem is that it's hard to build a deck with such a slow draw engine if you can just win.
Have you tried Scroll Rack with this?
And yes, CotV is the way to go.
28  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Single Card Discussion] Izzet Guildmage wtfbbq on: December 04, 2005, 09:30:49 am
once you put a spell on the stack, you get priority back and can use an effect like this izzet guy to put a copy on the stack too. if enemy counters the original spell, the copy is still there waiting to resolve.
You're opponent can counter your spell in response to Izzet's activation, can't he? (that's what I was originally thinking of)
You target the spell, than your opponent counters it in response, then you have no legal targets anymore.
Anyway, I know his ability is awesomely powerful. Just don't think it's worthy the slot, unless, as I said, in decks like Fish where everything is a little threat.
29  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Useful Articles on: December 03, 2005, 08:43:40 pm
Just a thought:
Could you guys organize the topic so it would be clearer to see what articles there are and what are them about?
You know, just formatting it in some kind of pattern. That's it
30  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Single Card Discussion] Izzet Guildmage wtfbbq on: December 03, 2005, 08:39:06 pm
Yeah, I really think this is too slow. 2 mana to cast a 2/2 is ok. Specially if it's U/R U/R. But copying spells for 3 is really not that usefull. I guess you could copy Burning Wish to make an infinite Wish deck, like that Mirari's Wake thing, but that would be also slow. Well, but if Life from the Loam can make it, maybe this one can, so I guess speed is not that big of an issue. Remember that if the original spell is countered, you will lose 3 mana to nothing, and that isn't great, at all.
With a fast analysis, what this could copy?

2U:
Ancestral Recall - 2UU for 6 cards rocks! This would be good in any deck that could afford it.

Vamp. Tutor & Mystical Tutor - useless

Brainstorm - well, paying 2U to see 1 more card is pointless, unless you fetch between the two Brains

Impulse - double impulse is nice, but in a deck that packs Impulse and so probably wants to win fast, do you want a 2/2 slow creature

Echoing Truth - well, this could be an extra in a deck that already packs it. 2U to return one extra thing would be nice.

Dark Ritual - useless! 2U for BBB? Well, use Initiates of the Ebon Hand if you want to filter mana.

Cabal Ritual - 2U for BBBBB is more likely. But combo would probably never use this just because it would probably cost 5 mana to play and activate. You can win with that mana.

Crop Rotation - I don't see Crop Rotation being that good doubled. In fat you could seach Tolarian and Strip Mine or LoA and that would be good after all.

Mana Drain - Yeah, doubleing counters is great. Specially Mana Drain since winning a counter war with double-Drain almost garantees a victory in your next main phase (unless this is already you first main phase)

Diabolic Edict - Bye Oath? Nah... Oath can counter the original and get rid of the copy in response.

2R:
Time Walk - This is great. Playing another 2 turns is a win. Period. This is where this guy could shine - Recall and Walk.

Burning Wish - Infinite Wish and the Slow Vintage. What would you do with infinite wishes? Infinite Wills, infinite Tinkers? For what?

Recoup & Regrowth - This could be also interesting, aside from being sorcery speed slow as hell.

Balance - this would be funny!

Life from the Loam - Returning 6 lands to your hand w/ Bazaar on the table is like an Ancestral Recall. But Loam still have to prove itself worth.

Duress - 2UB for 2 cards? Nah...

I can't remember anything other than those and something is clear: this guy's place is probably something like Fish. A deck where he could do stuff, but nothing would revolve around his abilities. Isn't it?
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