Great replies guys, keep'em coming!  Let's put this stupid topic to bed.

/Bump

Does nobody else really have input to this topic?  Is it that you all agree with what was written so there's no need to reply?  C'mon guys... Magic players are thinkers.  We have opinions about everything.  List'em!  Even if you agree, just reply that you agree.

I'm really tired of having this discussion with people who in my opinion just can't see what's going on.  I want to have some thread or some info I can refer them to... to end what I view as wasted-time discussions.

Hey Knowmad

Your list seems pretty good to me.  I'm not a fan of sorcery based draw in a deck with drains/reactive spells.  It really fights against the intended nature of the deck.  If you are tapping out early game for a sorcery you are NOT open to react with drains etc.

Also, you are playing a strip mine and 2 wastelands main deck.  You are also playing search lands.  Dude, just try the deck with Crucible and an artifact land.  Seat of the Synod if Gorilla Shaman is not huge in your area.  If he is, use Darksteel Citadel.  I've explained it enough times in other places, Crucible has so much synergy with this deck it's amazing.  Even your discard based draw spells become better.  It speeds up slaver lock immensely, fixes mana, gives alternate win paths, etc.  People even play with less then 4 welders these days... and crucible is a slaver lock with only 1 welder needed.  It just... works.

LoA also will win you games against other control decks.  But if your meta is big on decks that are hurt by wasteland... I can see Wasteland main deck instead of LoA being better.  Still though, I don't see LoA in your deck or board.  It wins games.

I also don't see Tolarian Academy.  It's huge, and I don't believe it's "win more" at all.  If you play Yawgmoth's will then combo-out requires mana.  The Academy does that in spades.  It also fuels huge early game wins.  I don't think I have ever even sideboarded the Academy out, it simply hits too hard.

mana vault?  Never really liked that in my testing.  I would swap that for the Tolarian Academy.

Glad to see you are packing the trickbind... it's huge against many decks.

Was this directed at me?  I was mentioning earlier how I use wastelands in the sideboard.  Yeah, they get boarded in versus many decks.  But not all.  Back when I made that slaver list and was EXTENSIVELY testing against the known field in 2005-2006 I would say that wastelands went in game 2 against at least 50% of the field.  They won me games, it was great.

I'm not really a fan of either Strategic Planning or Ideas Unbound.  Entirely for the reason of Sorcery.  At least the way I play slaver is a reactive control deck that will suddenly turn on a dime and slaver lock when the moment is right.  My control role is SEVERLY diminished if I can't respond with Trickbind/ManaDrain/Brainstorm/REB/Plow/Disenchant etc.

Now about this statement...
No way, NOT the same effect.  Slaver lock with Pentavus or Triskelavus is MUCH more difficult then with Crucible.  You need 2 welders instead of 1, you need Mindslaver and Trisk/Pent in the yard (or hardcast for 7...) where with crucible you only need Slaver + it in the yard or 3 mana to hardcast, and you need 5 or more mana compared to 4 with Crucible.  THAT is much easier.  Easier slaver lock = more threatening win condition.  If I have 4 mana, a welder, and a crucible on the table then one more TFK can win the game.

- I have ran 2 mindslavers because when I played with 1 I found myself CONSTANTLY getting into situations where I needed/wished there was another.
- Beyond that, people often assume you only have 1.

Now, without brainstorms to shuffle one in hand too early away... I will probably go back to 1 main deck.  It was indeed a dead card sometimes, but brainstorms fixed that and now they are gone.

  I'm not sure I followed this.  loa = Library of Alexandria and fof = Fact or Fiction?

If you play crucible in slaver, I believe that strip is an auto-add.  Just like if you play black mana... add yawgmoth's will and demonic tutor.  I have won MANY games simply because I played an early crucible with fast mana and kept my opponent playing early game with recurring strip.  It's one of those easy sacrifices that I was able to make and occasionally wins games.

Another note to that, my sideboard has 3 wastelands and when I play against decks like dragon, ichorid, and Stax the strip+3wastelands are always big plays.  I would say the BEST response to a first turn Mishra's Workshop + Trinisphere is a strip mine for their shop.  Etc.

My robots were... Plat, Trisk/NewTrisk, Pentavus, 2 Mindslaver with variance on the creatures based on meta.  After brainstorm-gone I think I'll remove 1 slaver and I usually play NewTrisk any time Pentavus would have been good.

Very funny guys

Well, when I started posting about Crucible and Gifts in Slaver, I didn't see anybody else talking about them in that deck, or how great the were.  I didn't see any lists running them at all.  When I posted my findings, I was in some ways attacked for trying to suggest janky solutions to a deck that didn't need it.  So... based on how things go around here I'm not 1 bit suprised that when I step up now and mention that I'm shot down like it never happened.  Par for course on these boards.

Crucible is absolutely NOT win more.  Win More is what you do after you've already won.  Crucible+artifact land enables a slaver lock that is MUCH faster and requires LESS pieces then any other method.  Only 4 mana (one of which is artifact-land), 1 welder, slaver in yard, and crucible.  I fully agree with The Atog Lords comments about active welder on the table makes Thirst more threatening.  Active welder on the table makes many more moves potentially game ending to the other player.

Crucible not only gives the easiest slaver lock, not only adds card advantage, not only gets around mana denial, not only fixes mana colors, not only can potentially lock somebody in a crucible+strip mana denial, but Crucible also adds more options to Gifts/Thirst/TFK.  I'm sorry but if you call Crucible "win more" then you're not using it like I am.  Because that card helps me fight to GET ahead so I can win.  Perhaps in your build it does not help much... but in mine it was a night and day difference.

Just a final note, I have a few meta game calls that I do for my build based on the meta in my area.  But most of the big Control Slaver wins in major tournaments have been versions extremely close to my build.  I'm not at all claiming anything other then Gifts and Crucible WORK in that deck, and my build is similar to the ones that have won.

You would think I would not have to defend Gifts and Crucible in slaver... but I did!  Some caught how great they were in that deck, and others just argued and argued. 

It was 100% obvious to me that those who argued Crucible and Gifts were bad in Slaver, really never tried it... or didn't play them enough to see how good they were, or were possibly just bad players who made bad gifts piles or missed out on all the cool tech. 

Just like the Platinum Angel.  MOST OF THE TIME I didn't win with her.  I just used her for card advantage.  Get her on the table and suddenly my opponents deck of 60 cards turns into only like 1-3 cards I care enough to stop resolving.  I use my Platinum Angel like a good chess player uses the queen.  Not to do the kills usually, but to force the opponent into a corner... out of options.  As a side note... Platinum Angel just happened to also single handedly win the game against many of the staple vintage decks at the time.  Many didn't have any way of dealing with her.

Anyways, I'm happy to claim that Gifts and Crucible were my additions to slaver. 

I started adding Crucible of Words and Gifts Ungiven to my CS builds back in 2005 and I even posted about it here on the Mana Drain.  I had to INTENSELY defend both of those cards as huge additions to control slaver because so many people were bad at playing gifts right, and really never tried them in control slaver.  Here's the thread (and BTW, most of those points I made are still relevant today)

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=26051.30

Having no brainstorm hurts my build of Gifts-Slaver.  I have not yet spent the time to figure out what direction I will go to recover.  But I'm fairly certain I will add 1-2 Gorilla Shamans, maybe remove 1 welder, and fill in the other slots with very cheap spells for early game.

I completely agree with everything you said Roxas.

Are there any studies taken that show that with numbers?  Anyone ever taken the time to track how many games are won/lost based on mana pulls and shown the data?  Do you know of an official article somewhere discussing this subject?

Thanks,

Really not the response I was looking for...

Got a question for you all.

My friend and I are butting heads on this subject.  Both of us actively play all the formats out there and of course each of us has our favorites.  I prefer Vintage/Legacy/Pauper and he prefers Extended/Sealed Deck/Draft/MTGO.  After seeing our last 4 sealed deck format games be 100% determined by who either got mana screwed or flooded (which seems to happen a lot in those formats...) I tried to make the case that's why I prefer the constructed formats.  He of course disagreed and said they all have equal amounts of luck factor.

I've played Magic since 1997, and it's been very apparent to me (or at least I believe so...) that the limited formats rely much heavier on a luck factor.  More specifically Sealed deck really.  I prefer to play constructed formats because I can minimize the luck factor through better card draw, mana curve, efficientcy, etc.

Has there ever been any data driven studies that show which formats have the most games determined mainly by the mana source pulls?  Are there any official articles discussing any agreed upon beliefs for the most "lucky" versus "skill intensive" formats?

I would prefer to avoid replies of just speculation if possible.  I'm looking for any actual data that has been collected or well estabilished articles on the subject.

Thanks.

As an owner of full power 9, set of 40 dual lands, 4 drains, library, 3 bazaars, etc etc etc.  I would indeed be effect by the printing of proxies...

However... I support it.  Fully.  I love vintage and I want to see it played more.  I think the proxies should have PROXY across the face of the card and only be legal in DCI Vintage sanctioned tournaments that support proxies.  Keep the limit of 10 proxies, and they must be official (reprint proxies). 

Value of old cards will drop with reprints, but it will also rise with more people playing them and wanting the real deal.

Do they have monkeys making these choices?  This seems stupid.  I want to see some SERIOUS DATA on their part that shows good reason for this.  Just because a card is used a lot does not make it broken or overly powerful.  I would say that Brainstorm's biggest jobs were evening out bad draws and surviving duress.  I absolutely 100% disagree that brainstorm needed to be restricted.

Gush?  Sure.  Take it.  Why the hell did they ever unrestrict it?  Do they listen to us?

I don't think Gifts was powerful enough to warrent restriction.  It never hands down won the game after resolving, nor did it ever prevent the other player from playing his deck.  The format was never dominated by it and many decks ran 1-2 of them anyways.

I gotta call dibs on Gifts in Control Slaver though, I was arguing the power of that card (and crucible) in slaver for a long time.  My current Gifts Slaver build only used 2 gifts, 1 in the sideboard.  So it can easily survive with some minor changes.  In fact, I think the only deck this restriction limits is the straight up Gifts Ungiven builds.

For the other cards though... Dude...  Mind Twist is sick and wrong.  That card going off big in turn 1 is so damaging.  Having 4 copies in a deck gives you a GOOD chance to see that.  I remember for years having to deal with losing my starting hand to mind twist.  It makes the game no fun at all because you basically lose on turn 1.  I see no good reason to unrestrict Mind Twist.

Black vise used to be the cheapest damage spell/item in the whole game.  I would argue that Tendrils probably is now, but still Black Vise was also banned for a reason.  I know that I'm personally planning on breaking that card as fast as I can.

This was a good point, and well worth considering.  However I was 21 when I started playing magic and most of the people who also played around me were 18-35.  A LARGE portion of that magic community already had access to more disposable income.

$1000 US-2000 is only worth $600 US-2007 from a certain perspective.  If you had $3000 sitting in the bank then, and didn't touch it,  you have about $3060 in the bank now.  Looking at America from a closed community perspective that price increase IS a value increase.  You can't always judge the value of American dollar by how it translates to other countries, because trade is often restricted to other countries to dampen the volatile world markets.

I've played since 1997 and have a vast collection for all formats, including...

Unlimited Power 9 (most are NM)
4 Drains
3 Mishra's Workshops
1 Library of Alexandria
full set of 40 dual lands (revised)
Beta Sol Ring
Alpha Demonic Tutor
full set of 20 search lands
2 Moat
1 Mirror Universe
1 Berserk (unlimited)
etc etc.

My overall collection surpasses 13,000 cards with no repeats more then 4 of anything.  I use electronic databasing of my collection and have the value estimated well over $15k.  Hopefully, that estabilishes my financial investment into Magic the Gathering.

I am a home owner, got a wife and kid on the way, I'm an Engineer and I work for Intel in California.  If I had no financial sense, I would be very very broke.  I spend large amounts of time yearly reviewing my investments and making sure I move savings from one spot to another based on markets.  I take large amounts of time to make decisions about home purchasing, 401k investment, stocks, etc.  Hopefully that establishes my sense of finances and the time I spend on them.

Having said all that, I am 100% in full support of Proxy tournaments for Vintage.  For years I have observed how it brings new players into the format, keeps the metagame healthy, levels the playing field for good competitive play, and INCREASES the value of staple Vintage cards.  Simply put, people like to collect, they like to play with real cards.  After slapping down that marked Island that says "Sapphire" 1,000 times you start wishing it was a real Mox Sapphire.

Sure, there are definately lots of times where my TFK digs down into three dead cards.  No doubt.

However...

There are also times where the game winning card is in my hand already and Gifts would be bad.  There's also many times that my mana is getting cut off at the knees and I just can't get to 4 until I do something threatening.  There's also times where games go late, I have 2 solid cards in the deck I need to dig to, and if I gifts for them they go into the wrong pile.

Having said all that, I'm not knocking this deck.  In my eyes, it's more of a gifts deck that can abuse welder and goes for a single slaver activation, then a Control Slaver deck that's abusing gifts.  Welder and Thirst is funny, because while not typically being the win condition, they are the backbone to Control Slaver.  Steve's comment for attacking the TFK's when playing against slaver is a good one.  When opposing decks hit my TFK's it's FAR harder for me to win.  Based on that, my typical sideboard against gifts is shaman/wasteland/REB/Stifle and maybe a plow.  So while that gifts deck is building up a hand to win a counter war, I'm knocking out his mana supply.

Hey Rich, one more question for ya.

You also mentioned how Control Slaver is generally more resiliant to a Jesters Cap activation.  I agree with this fully, but looking over your list again with that in mind I'm not sure this build is.  Many versions of Control Slaver play 2 Mindslavers, and 2 more big nasty artifact creatures.  So even after a single cap activation, typical slaver lists have a threat in the deck.  Also, most slaver lists play 4 welders or 3 welders and a shaman, etc.  So in a pinch, you have some very weak beatsticks.

But your list has just 2 welders, and 3 game winning cards (Sundering Titan, Mindslaver, Triskelion).  So it seems your build is in much more danger to the Cap then typical slaver.  In your play testing and tournaments with this build, has anybody yet tried to, or successfully capped you?

Thanks,

Thanks for this post Rich.  It's really nice to see new builds of Control Slaver and hear the strategy that players use to pilot it.  The tournament report is an added bonus as well.  Much like you, Slaver is a favorite deck of mine and it's been my golden child for the last 1.5-2 years.  My build has been nearly unchanged though, because even in the varying metagame, I've always had a nostalgic love for Brian Weissman's "The Deck."  I even got to play a mirror match against him in California like 8 years ago.  I'm a pretty decent player, but a casual player based on my job.  So having one solid deck that is a really well rounded answer in nearly any metagame really appeals to me.

Based on that, I have posted my build of Gifts-Slaver several times in threads and discussed it.  Mine is the one sporting the maindeck tundra, cunning wish, and lots of solid answers in the sideboard.  Plus I've had many many posts defending Gifts Ungiven and Crucible in my version of Slaver.  After literally playing thousands of games with it (using real cards too, not proxies) I can easily claim that my build is a very average-metagame build.  It has the tools to deal with every meta I have run up against, but as a result will not perform as well as perfectly metagamed versions of Slaver.  For me though, with my very limited tournament time, it works.

The list you posted here is very innovative.  I don't think I have hardly ever seen people play a list so short on TFK.  I can understand your reasons for it, they are well thought out.  I too have to wonder how many times I would find myself with active welder on the board, Mindslaver in my hand, wishing I could hit a TFK for the win.  Since your "goal" with this deck is different then the typical slaver strategy, I also understand that the situation I just described is not the same for this deck as it would be for a typical slaver build.

Your maindeck list of 2 welders, the REB, and 2 crypts looks VERY much like a metagame call to me.  It obviously worked for you and I'm really happy you had a great time with the build.  When I run into lots of fish, Stax, or Sullivans Solution type decks, keeping a welder on the board can be the difference in a game win or not.  It does not sound like you played against those decks alot, so I'd be curious to see how you reacted to them.  I use my welders to not only do their job and accelerate my game plan, but also just to threaten my opponent.  Any good vintage player knows (you included) that active welder with thirst mana open is keeping your opponents king in "check."

I also run 2 Mindslavers in my build.  Many times I have wanted to go to 1, but EVERY time I test it out, I ALWAYS end up regretting it because I needed that 2nd slaver to close the deal.  At this point, I do believe it's just the synergy for how my build works.  Many things I do in my build (like the Tundra/Cunning wish) would not work well in other slaver builds, but my build really relies on it's specific makeup.  The Crucible is another keystone to my build, it enables my game plan and resiliance to the entire metagame of Vintage in a big way.  Most games end through slaver lock (Crucible, 3 mana, 1 welder, citadel, slaver) with my build.

I have also played in many other Vintage metagames where players rely on their mana in a big way.  Maindeck Strip Mine/Crucible, and Sideboard Gorilla Shaman/3 Wasteland has literally handed me hundreds of wins against those decks.  If for not other reason, because nearly nobody expects slaver to go mana denial.  I see you don't play crucible in your list, but it's obvious that you are trying to get that single slaver activation, not the lock.  I'm also guessing that nobody was hitting the mana base really hard in the meta you played in.

Again, thanks a ton for the post.  I really enjoyed reading it and the replies.  Thanks also for all your contributions to vintage, including Control Slaver.  My absolute favorite deck in the 11 years I've been playing Magic. 

Xantid Swarm can be a problem.  My build packs Trisk and StP to stop him.  I can cunning wish for StP to stop them in game 1 if I need to as well.  Maindeck Tundra baby!

For the record, my win percentage against Dragon with Swarms is really high (+85%).  I'd really like to claim that winning against a well built storm deck is consistent, but I think nearly anybody has to admit those matchups come down to how you drew, and how they drew.  I will say this though, beyond either one of us going broken on each other, I'd say my win percentage against well built storm decks is closer to 70%.

My decklist is posted earlier in this thread.

Jotun Grunt can be suprisingly powerful against many decks of Vintage.  His upkeep ends up being pretty easy to pay, meaning you get a 4/4 for 1W.   He also turns off the bit Yawgmoth's will combo's, disables Dragon draw/win engine, shuts down ichorid, and removes value from every welder based build out there.

I've played quite a few Vintage games agaisnt a deck sporting main deck Grunt.  He actually changed the game state quite a bit.

That's the exact type of situation that Crucible is amazing at fixing. 

Yeah, I do love balance.  By the typical situation is this...

I have 1 welder on the board, 2 blue mana, 1-2 moxes, 4 cards in hand and my opponent and I are fighting for control so we can go broken.  If my opponent is playing Oath and pops out Akroma, balance will not save me because I have a welder.  If my opponent is playing stax, then most of his permanents are artifacts and he can topdeck more threats then me.  If my opponent is dragon then I'll end up losing my own welder probably cards from my hand, and he only needs 2 mana + a bazaar on the board to win.  If my opponent is gifts then I nearly for sure have a welder in play so all I'm going to effect really is hand size and if he has 7 cards to my 2, I'm pretty sure he will just counter the balance and smash me.  If my opponent is playing Tendrils, then I lose my welders for sure, probably tap out counterpower, and only knock 2-3 cards from his hand.

I cannot stress this enough... losing your 1 welder from the table is a huge problem.  That 1 welder turns every fact/gifts/thirst into a game winning potential bomb.  Especially since slaver lock with crucible only requires 1 welder and 4 mana.  You can work around losing a welder but your threat density goes WAY down.

I tried testing it for awhile with my build, it just never ended up being as powerful as I know balance can be.  Usually, it was a dead card anyways because I was either slightly ahead, slightly behind, or on par with my oppoenent and a sorcery with off-color was mana drain bait.  Swords was nearly always better.  Especially since I can cunning wish for it in game 1 if it's needed.

Disenchant nearly got cut from my sideboard MANY times.  Even today, I'm looking strongly at Krosan Grip.  Artifact removal is not enough, people sideboard way too much enchantment based hate for slaver.  (Choke, Ground Seal, Back to Basics, Planar Void, etc.)  Plus Disenchant hits artifcats and can also disrupt dragon combo etc.

I'm looking heavily at Trickbind now.  I may just yet find a slot for that card in the deck.  There's a LOT of stuff in Vintage that can be  shut down with it, and split second does amazing things to the metagame.

Trust me, I tested with that.  Balance is hugely powerful when used right.  I still believe it's the most powerful white card out there.

What I found was the situation was nearly never right for Balance, at least for my playstyle and the way I built my deck.  I try to have at least 1 welder on the board nearly all the time, because then every Gifts or Thrist is a serious threat to my opponent.  I also always want cards in hand, because slaver can definately play reactively at times.  So the only times balance would end up "balancing" in my favor, was when my opponent was way ahead with creatures/lands/cards in hand and if that was true, I probably already lost and my balance would not save me.

White is in there because I found Swords to just be an atom bomb at times (Dragon, Darksteel Colossus, etc).  Disenchant helps, but swords has been the real white all star for my build.  Adding white to my build is one of the things people hated the most about my decklist.  Admittedly, it seemed to be a questionable addition and it was until the crucible and gifts went in.  Main deck, there are 8 cards I can draw to get white mana (5 searches, 1 Tundra, mox pearl, lotus) So I suprisingly don't need much help getting white.

I also tested with Abeyance and Orim's chant for awhile.  Those ended up being good, especially with Isochron Scepter (which has definate synergy with thirst/drain/welder/ancestral/plow/REB etc.) But going that route I ended up playing too much control and had a hard time comboing out when it was needed.  The build I listed above changes gears from defensive to combo out into slaver lock on the turn of a dime.  Thanks to Gifts/will/demonic tutor/vampiric tutor/tinker/walk.

Again, I don't claim it to be the superior build.  I agree with others that there is no superior build.  But I can definately tell you that my list has tools for everything out there and I start with it when I don't know a meta and adjust with the cards I suggested from there.  It's been working great for me for 1.5 years now.

You guys rock, lots of great discussion in this thread.

I have to also disagree that slaver is a narrow metagame deck.  My findings are also exactly opposite.  Having said that, some of the slaver lists I see could easily be much more narrow.  Like lists where people run 2 shaman, and a Rack and Ruin main deck.  Or when people go for the Tendrils option instead of the standard slaver plan.  Those decks seem to be more narrow because they are specifically skewed towards a specific metagame.

Here's the list I run now, nearly unchanged for over a 1.5 years.

Spells 35
1   Time Walk
1   Ancestral Recall
4   Mana Drain
4   Force of Will
4   Brainstorm
4   Thirst for Knowledge
1   Tinker
1   Yawgmoth's Will
4   Goblin Welder (or 3 welder 1 shaman, depending on meta)
2   Mindslaver
1   Pentavus/Triskelevus
1   Platinum Angel
1   Crucible of Worlds
1   Cunning Wish (or echoing truth for some meta, I prefer this)
2   Gifts Ungiven
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor (no, not mystical.  Vamp is better for this list)
1   Fact or Fiction
   
Mana Sources 25
1   Library of Alexandria
1   Tolarian Academy
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Emerald
1   Sol Ring
1   Mana Crypt
3   Flooded Strand
2   Polluted Delta
3   Volcanic Island
1   Tundra
2   Underground Sea
2   Island
1   Darksteel Citadel
1   Strip Mine

Sideboard
2   Swords to Plowshares
1   Burnout (or 1 more REB)
1   Red Elemental Blast
2   Pyroblast
2   Disenchant
1   Gorilla Shaman
1   Gifts Ungiven
3   Wasteland
1   Stifle/Trickbind
1   Triskelion/Sundering Titan/Darksteel Colossus

The main reason I really like this list is that it's proven itself to me over thousands of games against every archtype out there.  This deck has a game plan for everything, or the ability to work around anything.  There are a few slots I change based on the meta, but the standard list fits REALLY well when I don't know the meta in an area.

I posted nearly this exact list around a year ago and it was not liked at all.  People had all kinds of negative opinions about it, but since then I notice that more and more slaver builds are using the cards I was standing by (crucible, gifts, etc.)  It's very easy to play the deck incorrectly.  Aggresively casting thirsts into drains, gifting for the same 4 cards instead of the current optimal 4 cards, nailing an early slaver lock, playing the platinum angel to buy time for slaver lock or for distraction, Playing the Platinum Angel to live through Tendrils/Goblins/aggro etc.

I'm not trying to arrogantly claim that this list is optimal for slaver.  Of course I realize other builds will play better in other metas.  But I have not yet found a more well rounded Vintage decklist for the last 2 years.

I'm guessing that your meta is huge on GY.  Tormod's Crypt is a bomb against some decks, and absotutely utterly a dead card against other decks.  Oath, Fish, Stax, CS, Gifts, and others can deal with it pretty easily most of the time.  I love that card in my sideboard, but definately not main deck.  Not unless my meta was VERY narrow.

Remember, the Crucible is NOT just there for strip mine.  It's usefull against all vintage decks, and a bomb against some.  In my eyes, thats much more well rounded maindeck then a card thats bomb/dead.

Just a thought.

Read through most of this thread.  Lots of good info here, and good discussions.

I hosted a thread over a year ago talking about how good Gifts Ungiven and Crucible of Worlds were in Control Slaver.  I still absolutely stand by that statement.  The list I play changes very little in different metas and those 2 cards are always pillars of my game play.  Of all the times I have seen people complain about Gifts Ungiven in CS builds, they seem to miss the point of that card in Control Slaver.

I have probably had a gifts pile including just about every card in my decklist.  It's ENTIRELY about reading the situation, guessing what your opponent is trying to do, and making a game plan to do your best job of locking him down, stalling him, or setting up your board/graveyard. 

Crucible is HUGE in CS.  Mana-denial recovery, Searchlands turn Brainstorm into Ancestral, Gifts/Thirst/Fact cares less about pitching lands, no slaver lock is easier then citadel/seat/1 welder, stripmine/waste for the win, etc.  On literally hundreds of games my Gifts Pile included Academy/Strip Mine/Citadel/Library then I just abused them with those lands until I could safely win.  Opponents don't often fear Crucible in slaver as much as they should.

For the record, like it or not, CS has an aspect of Combo deck in it.  Vampiric tutor gets key combo pieces, and does not give away your game plan.  I will always pick Vamp over Mystical.

Like many others have already said, one of the greatest things about CS is the huge number of slots for a specific metagame.  The only reason I go on and on about Gifts and Crucible is because I truely believe that used properly they are pillars in just about any CS build.

Cheers,

I can see this working for some builds of Slaver.

For my build, I don't though.  Not for my playstyle either.  I'm almost always trying to play welders, sol ring, brainstorm, vamp tutor, aggresively to draw out early counters and clear they way for bigger threats later.  Those cards have other reasons for being in the deck, yet they are small/cheap and great for bleeding counters on turn 1.

In general, after I get mana on the table I usually play more reactively with slaver and want my mana open until my opponents EoT step.  This would also force me to go for Underground Sea early more often which leaves me more open to wasteland.

Not for my taste, but I appreciate the insight.  Thanks for posting.

Vintage is not huge all over the U.S.

I live next to Portland, Oregon.  We do have vintage tournaments every once in awhile around here, but it's usually at least a 3 hour drive away.  In Seattle, Washington or some random spot in southern Oregon.  I was able to get a small bi-weekly vintage tournament going at a local store here for a few months.  $5 entry, prize was store credit.  That died out after a few months though.

I think Vintage is much stronger in the Eastern USA.  In some places in California too.  I'm more then happy to attend the power tournaments we do have though, and thankfull for them.  40+ people would be a big turnout for a power tournament here in the Northwest. 

Truth be told, there ARE lots of Magic players around here.  But I think they are scared/intimidated away from Vintage.  The format is too big, the players/cards are all older, and it takes a whole different level of skill then new sets.

It's VERY EASY to get 1 welder in play, so yeah it's a good assumption he's there.

If I give my opponent a Gifts split with Pentavus and Mindslaver, he will put the other 2 cards in the GY and those big artifacts into my hand almost everytime.  So consider that for a moment, what was a better choice for those other 2 slots?  Thirst?  Gifts?  Tutor?  Drain?  Welder?  Those cards don't do much for me in my Graveyard.  But another 2 artifacts that can be welded into play and abused help a ton.

If he puts my Slaver in the yard with an active welder, he loses.  If he puts pentavus in the yard, he's risking both slaver lock and beatdown.  Darksteel Citadel and Crucible are much less worse then those first two, so they go into the yard.  Which means I weld the crucible into play, then ALL I need is Slaver in the yard and it's a lock for the win!  Meanwhile I can abuse him with my Strip Mine/Fetches or use that Citadel to keep pulling other artifacts out of my GY.

Strip mine does FAR MORE then just shutting down Academy and Library.  Since adding Strip, I have had that "oops I win" factor in many games where I drew fast mana, strip mine, and crucible.

Strip mine/Crucible does AMAZING things to decks that NEED their mana in Vintage... which is the majority of the field.  Even a single strip mine can send the opposing deck into topdecking mode for another dual or bazaar/workshop.

It's worth trying, ESPECIALLY if you have Crucible.

That's a tough question in my opinion, because with a few simple card changes the deck can play out VERY differently!  A deck with DSC/Burning Wish/Tendrils will be working towards a win differently then a build with Gifts/Crucible/Cunning Wish.  I would state that you need to look at the "standard" Control Slaver build that started with Rich Shay (spelling) awhile ago, then all the builds now are either more offensive, defensive, combo based, skewed to a specific meta.

I think my build is a bit more defensive then others, but the Gifts/Tutors/Crucible let me turn on a dime to aggresive for the win.

I feel that most see that Crucible has HUGE synergy with most builds of Control Slaver.  I think some still argue the following cards one way or another.

-Platinum Angel
-Pentavus
-Darksteel Colossus
-Library of Alexandria
-Echoing Truth
-Burning Wish
-Tormod's Crypt
-Gorilla Shaman
-3 or 4 welders
-Triskelion
-Cunning Wish
-Gifts Ungiven
-Disenchant
-Duress
-Wasteland
-Strip Mine
-1 Swamp
-Mystical Tutor/Vampiric Tutor

Having stated those, it's VERY important to realize that based on some of the choices you make for your build of slaver, other cards fall in line with that.  Like I play Crucible, so Wasteland is not a bad option for me.  Some people play Duress, so that changes their synergy a bit.  Burning wish does NOT fit into my list, but it works decently well in others.  Before you judge a single card in a build, you REALLY need to look at the rest of the cards in that list for Control Slaver!

My build (listed on page 2 or 3) seems strong against everything I pit it against, except Stax and Dragon.  I have around a 50 to 60% chance against that deck if it's played well.  Other builds claim do to very well against Stax, but have issues with Oath, etc.  There is no simple answer, since VERY MINOR changes to the deck list effect it's synergy quite alot!

Intuition and Platz both have some seriously good uses in slaver!  I don't play Intuition, I use Gifts for that role, but I'm very aware how good that card can be in Slaver.

I used to experiment with Isochron Scepter and Abeyance in Slaver.  It actually had alot of synergy and worked well. but in the end i could not afford to take up those card slots.  I needed more draw/tutor.  That's what you seem to run into with the "bad" cards in slaver.  They are not really 100% bad, most of them (like Solemn Simulacrum) DO have synergy with the deck, but there ends up being "better" cards to play that have "more" synergy with the deck.

For the list I posted early in this thread, I spent ~8 months developing it and I have not changed that list since September since I can't find anything that works across all meta's better then that current list.  I DO however change that deck slightly if I know the meta is skewed in an area (like trading out pentavus for a shaman, etc.)