Wait, isn't Kaervek's Torch harder to Reiterate too?

As long as Kaervek’s Torch is on the stack, spells that target it cost 2 more to play.
Kaervek’s Torch deals X damage to target creature or player.

Does that matter? What makes Demonfire worse?

Man, I wish all of these would see print, just for the purpose of Imprinting them on Spellweaver Helix.

Null Rod did basically what you're describing in Forino's original list. There, Null Rod would be solid in the maindeck (one Mox and the Lotus only), whereas Chalice was solid sideboard material.

I'm not sure that I don't like Night's Whisper in Forino's list either. Simply because, purely from the viewpoint of an aggro-control card AND a combo card, it does both. It's obviously not amazing in pure combo mode, but it helps to build up a critical mass of cards to get the job done one way or the other, IE accumulating Rituals until you hit the Tendrils or disruptive spells until your Negator and Bob tagteam does lethal.

Just another way to look at it.

Before you get *too* eager to tell me what I'm saying, I like Forino's list a lot. Simple changes to this list I think are what would be most productive, such as things like Brainstorm over Night's Whisper. Adding a ton of relatively useless artifact mana and cutting Null Rod, Wasteland and the third/fourth Cabal Therapy don't make the deck good, they make a working deck concept strictly worse.

This deck is moving away from Forino's list (a much more balanced deck in terms of archetypes) toward Storm combo. I see this through the addition of off-color artifact mana and expensive bombs through the removal of disruption. After all, if you don't draw one of the seven creatures in the deck or the six Duress effects (as of the latest list in this thread) all you are is an inefficient combo deck. Forino's list was good because it balanced itself equally between archetypes. It ran some of the very best mana acceleration of Storm combo (Rituals and on-color Moxen) and some of the very best disruption of U/B Fish (Null Rod, Duress effects, Wasteland), backed up by some draw and solid creatures. This deck removes almost everything that made the deck like Fish in favor of things that make the deck akin to Storm combo. This only weakens the deck against Pitch Long, Grim Long and Gifts. In short, this deck is devolving rather than evolving.

Y'know what sounds like some really good innovation? Taking a deck that's resilient enough to combo hate to *run it in the maindeck*, taking out all the cards that make this deck better than faster combo, thereby weakening its weakest matchup, while at the same time making it susceptible to combo hate again by adding more fast artifact mana than you need.

sa-x is right. I really see no reason to run this over Forino's list OR another Storm combo deck.

See also: Echo.

This card seems very powerful. Look at how good this would be in, for instance, Type 2 right now, which is at a pretty high power level these days. Obviously by Vintage standards this is fine, but still. Something to think about.

Actually, what I had in mind for 'greater protection against Control and other Combo' was the 2x Cabal Therapy you cut, along with the 3x Null Rod for the fast combo matchup.

These are the current differences between your list and Forino's 4th Place list:

Mana
-3 Wasteland
-1 Cabal Ritual

+1 Swamp
+2 Underground Sea
+1 Mana Crypt
+1 Mox Emerald
+1 Mox Pearl
+1 Mox Ruby
+1 Mox Sapphire

Tutor/Draw
-1 Demonic Consultation
-2 Grim Tutor
-3 Night's Whisper

+1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
+1 Imperial Seal
+1 Mystical Tutor
+3 Brainstorm

Protection
-3 Null Rod
-2 Cabal Therapy

+1 Rushing River

Basically, you're adding four off-color Moxen and Mana Crypt, solidifying the colored mana in the land base and adding Yawgmoth's Bargain at the expense of greater protection against Control and other combo decks.

Is that helpful?

For starters, I'm not sure I like Yawgmoth's Bargain here, as ridiculous as that may sound. It just seems like it costs too much to be consistently good.

Also, I think playing Mystical Tutor or Imperial Seal over Demonic Consultation in this deck is a mistake. Especially not Mystical over it.

Night's Whisper seems like a thousand times better than Looter il-Kor.

Who brings Fish hate against a deck with seven to ten creatures in it? Classical Fish hate like Flametongue Kavu and Lava Dart seem rather awful against Tendrils of Agony. Post-side I think people will have to bring combo hate and just hope for the best, rather than potentially risking dead cards against a deck that can just combo out.

What didn't you like about Forino's list? That deck seems ridiculous.

I always wondered why this deck didn't get more press. It kind of got lost in the Tournament Reports forum, but it looks really good against the field, and is very similar to your deck on paper.

FSB (Forino Sui Black) (4th @ SCG Boston)
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamps
1 Underground Sea
1 Cabal Pit
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual

4 Dark Confidant
3 Phyrexian Negator

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
3 Night's Whisper

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Null Rod

SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Dark Blast
SB: 1 Hurkly's Recall
SB: 1 Rushing River
SB: 1 Tormod's crypt
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Lion's Eye Diamond
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Grim Tutor
SB: 1 Cabal Ritual
SB: 2 Ill Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Underground Sea

This seems to be your deck, except with less Dimir Cutpurse and Rushing River and more Null Rod. Also, this has Chalice of the Void in the sideboard, also excellent against faster combo builds.

Is the interaction with stuff like Psionic Gift too outside the flavor of this card to just give it Vigilance and say "~This~ must block if able" rather than avoiding the rules hazard with a 'If ~This~ is tapped, it may block as though it were untapped' wording?

I was looking at a deck similar to this a while ago for purely casual play, and sort of gave up once I realized that, at least with my build, it wouldn't even really come close to having enough blue cards for reliable Force of Wills. Not to deter you, but I think you've got a similar problem. Meddling Mages might help here.

"Get busy here before I wreck this establishment!"

 :lol:

LOL LotusHead, you're my HERO. I've been trying to play Misdirection in this deck for EONS, because it seems AMAZING, but I never had the blue cards..

Unfortunately, I don't think my group is casual enough for Cheatyface. Plus its a friggin' rules headache, AND there's a lot of people to notice me sneaking it in. But I do have some fond memories of that card.. I won my local Unhinged release with a blue/red/black deck splashing for Stop That and a few good men with two Cheatyfaces, two Carnivorous Death Parrot, three(!) Saute, three(!!) Goblin Secret Agent and two(!!!) Frazzled Editors. MAAAAN that deck was good.

Anyway, my mistaken assignation of Abunas to 4W got me thinking, and Meloku has a lot of synergy here. Hand size matters; he powers up Plate and Library. He fuels Skullclamp for super-combo draw potential. AND he makes instant speed blockers, and is a blue card to pitch to.. Misdirection?

On second thought, meh. Bathe in Light seems really good here. It's what Reverent Mantra wants to be; it saves my guys from removal one for one without costing four mana, and is still useful even if multiple players are playing my colors. Also, it's a super political tool. It allows a more powerful player a complete free shot at any mono-colored opponent; making all the green player's men unblockable by the black player's men or vice versa is Some Good(TM).

Any thoughts as to the other two questions though? Is the one of answer even worth it, and what're other good utility men that I missed? Especially blue ones. I like blue cards. The pipe dream is to fit Misdirection, the Ultimate Multiplayer Jedi Mind Trick.

Hell, while we're meandering wildly off topic, what're some other great Jedi Mind Trick cards for multiplayer? Bathe in Light seems really good for that purpose, and Misdirection just plays havoc with targetted.. well, anything. Discuss.

I really like Scepter in this deck.. I used to play it as a two-of, but found basically the two things that make it not see play in Vintage: it's situational, and it sets you up for really big card advantage and tempo loss if someone has the quick Disenchant effect.

As for Abunas, Disenchant effects aren't prevalent enough around here to really justify running him, and his body isn't that spectacular for 4W.

Have you considered either Undead Gladiator or Zombie Infestation as potential discard outlets? I run Undead Gladiators in my Reanimator build because he's a constant blocker when you're put on the defensive, and can be invaluable in increasing card quality in the long game against Control. Zombie Infestation is also strong overall because of its versatility; you can drop it early under the counter wall against Control and pitch dead cards to combat Aggro strategies as well.

Also, are you entirely sure that 4 Doomed Necromancers are enough reanimation spells?

A metagamed aggro-control deck for my metagame, which sees a lot of Goblin Welders, Priests of Titania and GIGANTIC FATTIES, ie. Tinkered Colossuses, along with the standard WW/equip, Goblins and Survival decks. A Swiss Army Knife, as it were.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10376.html

Decklist:

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Raise The Alarm
4 Whipcorder
2 Exalted Angel
2 Devout Witness/Meddling Mage/Razorfin Hunter/Willbender
1 Ramosian Sergeant
1 Darksteel Colossus

4 Land Tax
4 Skullclamp
3 Empyrial Plate

3 Swords To Plowshares
2 Disenchant
2 Fire / Ice
1 Echoing Truth
1 Shining Shoal
R Mystical Tutor
R Balance
R Tinker

5 Plains
3 Mountain
2 Island
1 Ancient Den
1 Great Furnace
1 Seat Of The Synod
R Library Of Alexandria
1 Karakas
R Lotus Petal
R Mox Diamond
R Sol Ring
R Mana Vault
R Grim Monolith

Three questions:
1. What's better than Shining Shoal here?
The Shoal, while good, has been really lacking for me recently. I'm looking for something with a more powerful global effect, but at a low cost, and with a lot of uses, should the primary fail to be useful. Something like Reverent Mantra or Bathe in Light (Ravnica Uncommon Instant, 1W Radiance - Choose a color. Target creature and all creatures that share a color with it gain protection from that color) look most promising; they force through damage and counter removal spells and local enchantments, but they could be extremely dead situationally. Your thoughts?

2. A more general question about multiplayer: Is a one-of answer, in a deck where you'll see it more than 50% of the time, worth a 61st card? Here, the Shining Shoal/Echoing Truth/Ramosian Sergeant slot is that one-of, and they've all been amazing except for Shoal, which is addressed in Question 1.

3. Is there a good utility creature in my colors at 1, 2 or 3 drop that I'm missing? I thought I pretty much went through all the possibilities when working on the deck, but any input would be appreciated here as well. Other considerations were:

Gorilla Shaman - I don't see enough cheap artifacts in casual to warrant playing him, though it was close; Equipment Weenie is strong.

Icatian Javelineers - the red splash for Lavamancer and Fire/Ice was Just Better. Also, the need for more Lavamancers has never really arisen.

True Believer - I don't see enough combo, Mindslavers or Gifts decks.

Kataki, War's Wage - I don't see enough artifacts, AND it puts significant hurt on me.

Samurai of the Pale Curtain - Interacts negatively with Skullclamp.

Kami of Ancient Law/Hearth Kami - Really narrow, but could fit in the semi-open creature slot.

Mother of Runes - Weak in general, because the deck is more focused on being able to shift between Control and Aggro strategies, where Mom is pretty generally aggressive. She locks me into one role, and the deck is more fluid than that.

Any mindless beater; Men with abilities that don't affect the game state - Just as I said, they don't affect the game state. I used to run Leonin Skyhunter, but came to the realization that they sucked, so cut them for the 2-of creature slot.

Other questions, comments and concerns are greatly appreciated as well.

This seems completely insane in Sligh. You could conceivably build a deck where every converted mana cost in the deck is one, including this. It acts as Dark Ritual turn 1, and Lightning Bolt 9-12 thereafter. For this deck alone, this card seems too powerful. Turn 1 triple-two power 1 drop, turn 2-3 burn you out seems overpowered.

Hehe now I *know* why it doesn't see more play.

I took almost the exact list in my first post to a Type One in Minnesota. I went 3-3. Either the deck went 2-0 or 0-2. It either went completely broken and just destroyed my opponent, or it sat around and did basically nothing.

Is there any way to fix this consistency issue? This deck seems really good, if that issue is addressed. I'm talking really digging deep here. Weird stuff, a la Sensei's Divining Top over Sword of Fire and Ice. Anyone have any ideas?

Makes sense on Sword. So it's in over Jitte.

What do y'all think of Crusher? It does just that under Null Rod, which is why I like running it. That's also the reason why I cut the third Triskelion for it; under Rod it's a 4/4 for 6 (Read: more mana than you can produce, especially with Wastelands and only 24-25 mana sources) that does absolutely nothing.

Before I even start, I'm calling the deck 'Modular', because that's the mechanic it abuses, and it runs, count 'em ZERO cards with Affinity for Artifacts.

The Modular archetype, the deck which Jesse River hit third place with at SCG Chicago, seems like an extremely good metagame call right now. In my testing, this deck has STOMPED/DONKEY PUNCHED/*insert term for extreme violence here*'d Fish of almost any build, and seems like a decent choice against the Control decks currently populating the format (Gifts and Control Slaver). It also happens to have a good match against Aggro, minus strongly metagamed R/G lists. Here's Jesse's list:

4 Metalworker
4 Myr Servitor
4 Myr Retriever
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Triskelion

4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Skullclamp
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
R Memory Jar

9 SoLoMoxCryptVault
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
R Strip Mine
R Tolarian Academy

SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Phyrexian Furnace
SB: 3 Eon Hub
SB: 3 Razormane Masticore
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds

My proposed changes are as follows:

-1 Triskelion, -1 Ancient Tomb +2 Arcbound Crusher

This card was in an earlier build of the deck, and its very good in the Fish matchup. You should already beat any version running Chalice of the Void over Null Rod, as in testing resolving Rod was absolutely crucial, but decks running Rod are more difficult. This helps in that matchup, as with Rod on the board you can still produce a monster fatty that wins games against the little blue men. I also expect to see around 50/50 Rod Fish and Chalice Fish, with Rod Fish showing up as a metagame answer to Chalice Fish.

Possible other changes include:

-3 Sword of Fire and Ice, +3 Umezawa's Jitte

Jitte seems like it helps this deck in quite a few different ways, as it gives a cheap answer to an early Welder, and Legend-rules Fish's Jittes. Also, this seems like it would help in the match against Workshop Aggro, because it gives a non-6 mana, multiple use answer to Juggernaut.

The sideboard still seems solid, despite the passage of time, although I would like to see the one random Crucible as something more consistent.

Chris Franson

Kataki, War's Wage  1W
Legendary Creature - Spirit
All artifacts have "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this artifact unless you pay 1.".

2/1

#14/165

This seems really strong. There was a white-blue AEther Vial-based weenie deck running around a while ago, with 4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain, 4 Icatian Javelineers and 4 Meddling Mages. This seems like it would be extremely good in that deck as a sideboard card against the Modular('Affinity' according to SCG, though it ran zero cards with Affinity) deck that Top 8'd at SCG Chicago. That deck has been a growing force in my metagame, and I see this as a bit of relief against it. This could also form a similar function in U/w Fish, similar to the list that won Waterbury. Comments? Is Energy Flux just better?

A few thoughts:

1. Arcane Lab seems really unnecessary

Considering how much card advantage flipping this generates in and of itself, Arcane Lab really seems like a win-more card.

2. Does this condition cause him to flip?

Land, Mox, Erayo, they Force, Daze their Force?

That's four spells, I just would like rules clarification on whether it only counts the storm count while it's in play.

I see this fitting more into an aggro-control deck than anywhere else. Daze and Misdirection both seem excellent here, as spells to help flip him.

EDIT: The way he's worded in this thread, the condition listed in my point #2 doesn't flip him. ::sad face::

I saw a deck online in Type 1 Casual on MWS that used Aesthetic Consultation along with R&D's Secret Lair to assemble the old Voltaic Key - Time Vault combo. It was pretty hardcore, though I don't suppose that's really what you're looking for. It's at least a start.

Basically, any deck with lots of early creature removal should work relatively well. White Weenie with splash colors works really well for this. For instance, with WW/r you get access to 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Lightning Bolt, 4 Magma Jet and 4 Disenchant. Sooooo good against Welder and Metalworker. Also, with that strategy, you get another contingency plan for Metalworker in Whipcorder (tap him on the artifact player's upkeep), which is also a wonderful creature for casual in general.
Also, Devout Witness finds a home in this sort of strategy as well.

One solid weapon this deck has against the mana denial of Sundering Titan, should the worst come to pass, is Land Tax. It smooths your multi-colored manabase, and digs you out of a hole when the Titan comes into play.

I actually have a build of this deck lying around, though it splashes blue.

// Mana
6 Plains
2 Mountain
1 Island
3 Ancient Den
1 Great Furnace
1 Seat of the Synod
R Chrome Mox
R Mox Diamond
R Mana Vault
R Sol Ring
R Grim Monolith

//Creatures
1 Ramosian Sergeant
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Whipcorder
4 Raise the Alarm
3 Exalted Angel
1 Darksteel Colossus

//Artifacts/Enchantments
4 Land Tax
4 Skullclamp
3 Empyreal Plate
1 Zuran Orb

//9 Removal Slots
4 Shrapnel Blast
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant

(In your case probably more like:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Disenchant
2 Magma Jet)

//Broken
R Balance
R Mystical Tutor
R Tinker

In general, this deck is quite solid against most things because of two factors: its total customizability, and its good answers against most of the field of multiplayer decks.

Umezawa's Jitte doesn't seem particularly synergistic with the deck, as it only runs eight creatures, four of which I really don't want to attack with.

As a sidenote, I'm testing Callow Jushi // Jaraku the Interloper in place of some Thieves of Hope (maybe as a 2/3 Jushi / Thief ratio) and they're looking pretty impressive. Any thoughts? For those that don't know:

Callow Jushi - 1UU
Creature - Human Wizard
Whenever you play a spirit or arcane spell, you may put a ki counter on Callow Jushi. At end of turn, if there are two or more ki counters on Callow Jushi, you may flip it.
2/2
//
Jaraku the Interloper
Legendary Creature - Spirit.
Remove a ki counter from Jaraku the Interloper: Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2.
3/4

Also, I want to find a slot for Yawgmoth's Will. It's..  well, it's Yawgmoth's Will. It's also quite broken in this deck because replaying multiple expended Peer through Depths is pretty amazing, along with replaying Accumulated Knowledge for four and three. And replaying expended Hana Kamis for later recursion. And... it's Yawgmoth's Will, use your imagination .

Here's the decklist. I'm sort of a multiplayer Johnny - Spike; I like building decks around block / underused mechanics and make them winners. So, without further ado, here goes:

SpliceIsPureCardAdvantage.dec

Arcane - 11
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Kodama's Reach
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Rend Flesh

Spliceable - 8
4 Glacial Ray
2 Horobi's Whisper
1 Wear Away
1 Consuming Vortex

Spirit Backup - 8
4 Thief of Hope
3 Hana Kami
1 The Unspeakable

Non-Arcane Non-Spirit - 14
4 Force of Will
4 Accumulated Knowledge
R Demonic Tutor
R Fact or Fiction
4 Birds of Paradise

Land - 19
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

The main problem with the deck is its lack of a true finisher. Thief of Hope in multiples is generally gg's, as is a protected The Unspeakable. However, neither are particularly easy to attain. The most common path to victory in this deck is splicing three or four Glacial Rays onto multiple Arcane spells. The Unspeakable costs 6UUU, and double Thief isn't easy in a deck with so little card draw.

This deck is really trying to be strong, but it needs a little more oomph, so to speak. A little more power. With all the Kamigawa-block cards held together by so few older, truly powerful cards, this is understandable. Now, on to the oddball card choices, as there are a few.

Thief of Hope?
He provides the extra life loss I really need to finish the currently targetted opponent, keeps me alive in the late game, beats for two, and Soulshifts back Hana Kami. He slices, he dices, he even makes Julienne Fries!

The Unspeakable?
I'm not gonna lie, I don't like this guy either. However, he was the finisher that was most synergistic with my deck. The only real problem with him in my book is... his INSANE mana cost. 6UUU. If anyone can suggest a better true win condition, by all means do. For now, it's just this guy.

No Intuition with AK's?
This is a metagame call. A lot of my opponents play semi-control decks with AK's, and I find it easier to capitalize off the situation when I'm not tempted to Intuition for 3x AK. As the Hulk mirror illustrates, the person to Intuition first will lose, almost assuredly, and my opponents don't even have the option, as they don't run Intuition by virtue of not owning any. I would run it in a more aggro-dominated environment, however.

Boseiju?
Again, I play in a control-dominated metagame, and the tempo swing from a countered Peer through Depths // Glacial Ray // Glacial Ray // Horobi's Whisper on their endstep is GARGANTUAN. Demonic Tutor for Boseiju has won me games I had no business winning.

Five basics in a deck with four Kodama's Reaches?
Because of the way the splice mechanic works, and how colored mana-intensive it is, I really need lots of sources of all four colors in my deck. I've simply resigned myself to the last two Reaches being relatively dead in my deck in the interest of mana stability, and lack of a better option.

Comment away! Any input would be extremely appreciated.

Just because I play Fish all the time, even when it's terrible (see since September '04, at least around here), I built an extremely tempo-based CounterSliver deck built around Standstill, with AEther Vial as a mana fixer. It's fun like crazy, no joke. One discepancy between my build and yours is the total lack of Sliver diversity in mine. However, the Standstill draw engine really makes up for the lack of diversity - numbers for me were better than a good toolbox. Also, as a direct result of using all older slivers, this deck is good in multiplayer despite Standstill, because your threats often evade their removal (Crystalline Sliver is an absolute house).

4 Winged Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
3 Acidic Sliver

4 Standstill
4 AEther Vial

4 Force of Will
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Intuition
R Demonic Tutor
1 OPEN

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

DAMN I drew a lot of cards with this deck.

However, barring both draw engines, with a little mana base tweaking you could easily fit 4x Living Wish and a Sliver wishboard.