This is my third deck attempt after just getting into Magic several months ago (the first 2 attempts seemed to be dismal failures, and thus I thought I would sit and observe the general vintage meta and decks before throwing my hat into the ring again).   As I said in my original decks posts, I am against netdecking as I think the best part of any CCG I’ve played (Lot5R, etc) is deckbuilding/fixing – not just jacking someone else’s deck….so please keep that in mind before you flame me for my lack of skills (If you do, I’ll whip out my mad kung-fu skills and kick my dog in the face).  I did, however, (obviously) look at other similar decks this time around, as just taking certain cards suggested in the various articles I’ve read, and then going through the oracle sheets to find cards which seemed decent didn’t work out so well….

I’ll give the general rundown of the deck, and identify the general problems I see.  Any suggestions (with explanations, if you don’t mind) or observations regarding either those problems I identify, or problems with the logic of my explanations would be greatly appreciated (and of course general deck fixes would be nice).



The Deck

Creatures
4x [card]Iname Death Aspect[/card]
2x [card]Revenant[/card]
2x [card]Elvish Spirit Guide[/card]
2x [card]Kokusho the Evening Star[/card]
2x [card]Teardrop Kami[/card]
2x [card]Nether Shadow[/card]
2x [card]Ashen-Skin Zubera[/card]
3x [card]Bile Urchin[/card]
2x [card]Floating-Dream Zubera[/card]

Spells
3x [card]Haunting Misery[/card]
2x [card]Reanimate[/card]
1x [card]Exhume[/card]
1x [card]Entomb[/card]
2x [card]Buried Alive[/card]
2x [card]Careful Study[/card]
2x [card]Thirst for Knowledge[/card]
1x [card]Vampiric Tutor[/card]
1x [card]Necropotence[/card]
1x [card]Demonic Tutor[/card]
2x [card]Crainial Extraction[/card]
2x [card]Mana Drain[/card] (proxy)

Mana Sources
3x [card]Dark Ritual[/card]
1x [card]Black Lotus[/card] (proxy)
1x [card]Mox Jet[/card] (proxy)
1x [card]Mox Sapphire[/card] (proxy)
4x [card]Underground River[/card]
4x [card]Underground Sea[/card] (proxy)
3x [card]Swamp[/card]
2x [card]Island[/card]

The Deck/Win Conditions

Primarily (and probably obviously) the deck is a sort of combo/reanimator build, relying mostly on Iname, Death Aspect for the win (although not relying solely on it).  I splashed in blue for its draws, counters and spirits and sprits, but many seemed to be dropped in fine tuning.  I would consider dropping blue altogether if I could find a decent draw engine in black that would fit the deck…..

Iname, Death Aspect + Haunting Misery – can be a first turn win (although that is not highly likely) or can bring pain later in the game. 
Revenant /or/ Kokusho, the Evening Star + Reanimate /or/ Exhume [+ Buried Alive /or/ Entomb /or/ Iname, Death Aspect]  -- fairly obvious, I think.

Draw Engines

Necropotence (obs I think).  Thirst for Knowledge and Careful Study allow for decent milling through my deck, as well as getting creatures in the GY.  I would have used 4 TfKs, however since there are so many high cost cards in the deck (Iname, Misery, Revenant, etc) I figured Careful Study would help out the general curve, while still being functional (adding to a potentially high curve is the fact that I think my mana source(s) are fairly weak, especially for blue).

I believe both of the black tutors belong here (Vampiric and Demonic), however Diabolic might be a little pricey and I’m not sure if Mystical is worthwhile with how weak my blue section is, and the fact that it can’t bring creatures into hand, correct me if I’m wrong….

Protection

I think Cranial Extraction might be the best protection Black offers, since it seems to be able to effectively disable most any deck.  Many have told me that it should only be run as a side, and brought it after you see exactly what deck your opponent is running.  However, I would argue from my great lack of experience that it could easily be used effectively even in the first if one is observant (and with how rampant netdecking and cookie cutters are).

I think the Mana Drains should be obvious, however, I’m not sure how well a UU will run with my poor mana setup (hopefully that will be resolved with this post).

Mana Sources

I think this is the weakest portion of the deck, and where I would like the most help.  I had trouble accurately calculating the mana curve, since the only high cost cards I will ever really be attempting to cast are Iname and Haunting Misery (the rest will be reanimated).   It seems to me I might not have enough sources to make the deck run, they are:

Blue/Black:
4x Underground River
4x Underground Sea

Black:
3x Dark Ritual
1x Mox Jet (proxy)
3x Swamp

Blue:
1x Mox Sapphire
2x Island

Colourless
1x Black Lotus
2x Elvish Spirit Guide (green)

Since this deck is so GY heavy, would Cabal Ritual be a good addition?  What about Songs of the Damned?

I’m also not sure if I should’ve (or even could’ve) chosen Lands which offer more than just mana (ie Library of Alexandria).

In one of my last posts, I asked about whether the power 9 were necessary in highly successful decks (to which Bram aptly demonstrated why they were).  I don’t expect this to be a highly successful deck in the least, however, since I am running proxies already, I considered running the other moxen…but it seemed like they wouldn’t help this deck much (especially considering the 3x Dark Rituals).  Wouldn’t the others really just end up taking up valuable space in this particular deck?


Creatures

All are spirits for the Iname win condition.  The only non B/U are the 2x Elvish Spirit Guides for mana.  I considered adding other coloured spirits, but figured sticking with B/U would be best in case the Reanimate/Iname doesn’t work out, and I actually had to bring them out by paying their casting costs.  The small cc sprits are to use as “?chump?� blockers, and to balance out the curve a bit, but still have useful functions in the deck (Teardrop Kami for some control, Nether Shadow can be stacked to be brought out after Iname, the Zuberas for draw and control).

I considered adding a Psychatog or 2, for another win condition (he uses the GY as food, and can help with discards) but couldn’t find room).  I know there isn’t much love for the Tog in Vintage, but if anyone thinks he can be fit, I’d love to hear how.

Sideboard

Haven’t put much though here yet, but help would be great.  Here are some things I was considering:

Cabal Ritual
Songs of the Damned
Psychatog
Psychatog
Yamgmoth's Will

Other Notes

-I would prefer not to run over 10 proxies, I believe I'm at nine now...I'm sure you can guess which cards I'll have to proxy, so please don't suggest too many.

-I could also use some help in rebuilding the deck for non-proxy play (which shouldn't be too hard to do).  Any help there is appreciated.

-simply suggesting what cards to add won't help me much (although it is appreciated) as I had enough trouble getting this down to 60 cards.  So please add and take away.

-being a newb, I would have put this in the newb forum, but the last few times I did that it was moved here, so...


Thanks to all.  More questions are likely to follow.

Thanks for all the help.  That SCG deck-finder was exactly what I was looking for. 

Although I can see the deck-lists (and therefore what cards are different), since I'm not yet completely familiar with the game's play mechanics (although I have a basic/moderate grasp of its rules) what is the difference between the TPS and Meandeck versions with regards to how they work?  And what does "TPS" mean?

As I mentioned in another post, I received several hundred cards (mostly commons, mostly crap) from a friend who is helping me get started in Magic.  After reviewing the cards, it seems that over 90% of them are either black or blue (an excellent turn of events as I was always attracted to blue...and black's alright too).   With that in mind, several more newb questions:

1) What sort of competative decks can be made with B/U ?  If none, what sort of competative decks have in the past been made with a combo of these colours or mono of either B or U (I know about Blue Bull$H**, Reanimator, Doomsday...um probably more but feel free to refresh my memory).  Yes, yes I know that "mono-black is dead" and so is BB.....  And if you are going to list successful decks of either or both colours from the past, please briefly explain why they are no longer viable.

2) What exactly is a fish deck and how does it work?  I have read several articles, but am still a little hazy....

3) What makes Oath such a powerful deck?  I have a basic understanding of how the core card works, but what makes it so fast/effective?

4) I have to admit that a reanimator deck appeals to me (ya, ya newbs love reanimator and big creatures, blah blah blah, shut it), so:
a) Why does Oath see so much more play than reanimator?  Both seem to share the common goal of bringing out a beatstick.  Is it simply becase Oath is faster (in that you must first dump creatures with rean) and you may reuse its effect?
b) Basic on Lotushead's Mesmeric Orb deck, I was thinking about making a B/U version of my own, using blue for it's counter, draw and discard abilites and black for reanimation, with the Orb as both an engine for reanimation and control.  Thoughts?  (Gaea’s Blessing would also play an important part in the deck, and I don't think it would contrast too much with the reanimation aspects

5) I have Tendrils of Agony and see it obvious potential, and have also read that several decks have been based around it.  However, I can't seem to find the most effective combo/deck (keeping in mind that I wish to use blue/black or mono-black, as I don't think mono-blue would do much for a tendrils deck  )  to abuse it.  Any help is appreciated.  And could Life Drains be built into a Tendril deck, making an effective "black burn" deck (also very appealing to me)?


Thanks in advance, probably more questions to come.

Although I have read much of the available literature/articles (etc) on the game and am beginning to formulate a very basic understanding of how Vintage (and the game overall, in all formats) "works" in a general gameplay sort of sense, I am still completely in the dark concerning the metagame(s) and the overall Magic Community.  So a few noobish questions (please bear with me here) and thanks in advance for all the help.

I just finished reading this post: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=23130.0   

I could not post any questions before it was locked, so many will be stemming from what is contained there, if anyone would like to use it for reference.   Also please keep in mind that if some of my questions come across as sarcastic, or appear not so much as questions but as sardonic observations,  I am not attempting to be cynical, but more to elicit a genuine response (rather than the typical pat-on-the-head-and-off-you-go responses that are so often fed to us "noobs" 

1) What is a "mirror match" or "mirror tournament"?

2) Are there any "professional" Vintage tournaments? (if I am using the term professional incorrectly see question 3d)

3) The above link contains several allusions and direct references to the fact that the Vintage format is not well respected among the "pro" players.  Several questions on this point:

a) What is the reasoning for Vintage having less respect?  Does it have to do with the fact that it allows for use of all of the most broken cards?

b) What format is most respected among the "pros"? 

c) I read somewhere on Wizards' site that Standard is the most popular format.  Is this true?  If so, do you think that it's popularity over Vintage stems simply from the fact that cards are more accessible, or is it possible that the game is actually more challenging/involves more skill since there are few/no broken cards (and I know you can argue that since all sides may use the broken cards in Vintage it balances itself out and the skill-level is either the same or greater, but I would hope that someone could come up with a better counter-point than that)?

d) I have heard a lot about "pro" magic players.  What exactly does being a professional player in the game entail?  I'm quite sure that no one can make a decent living on playing the game alone (if you want to argue this point, then you might save yourself some time by reading the next question first).   I assume it must then be some combination of winning paying tourneys and getting your name out there....but why assume when one of you can tell me what it means so I can stop rambling.....

e) This is not from the above link, but following from the previous question I have heard someone referred to as the "Magic Millionaire" on various forums.   Who is this person and why is he(/she) referred to as such?  [And if anyone even tries to tell me that this is more than a cute colloquialism and someone (other than the inventor/wizards/vendors) actually has made over a million playing this game I will kick a bunny in the face.  So don't even try it....unless you hate rabbits].

f) This question might sound idiotic or self-answering to start but why are "pros" and certain other individuals given so much adoration and outright worship in this game?  I fully understand that there will be some skilled players deserved of respect.  Much like in sports there will be individuals who excel, and who will be best at providing insight into the game's mechanics (as well as gaining a fan-base)   But come on, certain individuals (or teams, for that matter) seem to be known by first name by everyone and their word treated as law.  Some guy, don't remember who it was, and don't care ("oh no! that's sacrilege" I can hear so many of you declaring, and just driving my point home....although my apologies if the person was anyone in charge of this particular forum  ) decreed that mono-blue control was dead a while back, and it was only after that that it died out.  I'm sure you could argue that it died afterwards because people slowly realized what this gaming-god had more quickly found, that mono-blue control was no longer viable in the current metagame.  But I'm willing to bet nickles to nightmares that it was simply the travelling word of a magic god (or whoever) that brought it down (before you argue with me about whether mono-blue is dead and whether that was ever claimed by one of the "greats", calm down, read what I just said again, and realize that's not at all my point or question, and that I could very well be wrong....that's why I qualified all of these statements in my opening blurbs.)

4) And my last question for the night (because I think I am getting a little cynical since I'm so tired, and that was not the intended tone of this post, although my cynicism may be at its height in this last question):

(Relating to my last question) Does creativity have no part in the Vintage community?  Now, before you decide to berate me for my noobish idiocy, hear me out (I'm too lazy to put these last points into any sort of flowing prose, so you get some point form):

i) In reference to tournament play (setting aside casual, that is) at any given time there are only ever a few deck archtypes that are regularly discussed and considered viable.  Most others are dismissed out of hand as 'not being able to stand up to the flavour of the month's speed/countering/whatever'.  This would not be so bad if it were just specific decks or builds being left behind, but it seems entire archtypes (not just decks or builds) are thrown out, all because this guy/team plays this deck and has had some success.  It seems people are quick to throw away decent archtypes in favour of netdecking the latest flavour, rather then trying to see what the old archtype might offer in light of some creative modifications.

ii) In those few decks that are considered viable at any given time, there seems to be no creative thought or divergence from the norm.  All posted deck lists look almost exactly the same, save a splash of this color or a different ratio of that card.   And when people post them on forums, they act as if they have made some ground breaking move.  "Look everyone! I'm running the exact same dragon/combo deck as everyone else running combo, but I'll say it's mine b/c I've Sideboarded 3 Null Rods instead of 4.  Praise me for my ingenuity and tell me how much I matter in the scheme of dragon/combo decks" .... maybe that's a bad example, but you get the point.  (And I do realize that the Vintage format is both very "tight" and fast-paced, so small changes can make a difference, but I'm not sure that that fact speaks to my overall point. )

iii) Shhhh! Creativity must be secret and can only be employed by the top teams (unless you are resigning to casual, then you're free to be as creative as you want).  From what I have read (and please keep in mind that all of these questions/observations are only based on the articles I have read, and observing forum conversations for the past few months) it seems that creativity will only be praised when it is introduced by one of the top teams at some tourney (who must guard it closely beforehand).  If anyone normal/average player posts a different or "out there" deck in a forum, for example, it is given no notice, although it might hold great potential.   I attended my first local unofficial vintage proxy tourney recently (as a spectator, not yet a competitor) and watched a friend play his deck (which I thought to be fairly novel) knock out the top 3 netdecks, while those playing the cookie-cutters continued to mock my friend for his card choices.  I know a local tourney really isn't comparable to serious competitive vintage play....but maybe in some ways the situation I observed is analogous to the current state of affairs regarding creativity in the competitive community.  And when a popular or sucessful Team whoever pulls out their new Oathbelchertoganimatordrainsl iverorbworkshop it becomes the talk of the town regardless of how it actually performs.  (I realize the sports analogy works well here too, but my point it I think the format might move forward much more quickly if people were willing to look for gems elsewhere.) 

iv) There are a million posts and articles out there full of people espousing the benefits of creativity, and everyone always seems to nod in agreement with them, but then in practice creativity seems to be (unintentionally) scorned at every turn.....


More questions to come, I'm sure, but I'll stop for now as I'm very tired and apparently (from reading the preview of this post) a little grumpy.

Thanks in advance for putting up with my questions, and any answers/debate is appreciated!

Thanks, but I know what the Card does, I was looking for an example of the deck (forum search didn't reveal much).

Thanks to all!  Please bear with my follow up questions, as I'm just getting into the game:

Discozombie - I'm currently looking at several of the cards you posted in that impromptu deck list.  However, as I am a complete and utter newbie, what did you mean by:


I understand Drain's effect, but how would it work/help in a deck of this sort?


Malhavoc - Thanks.  Is there any sort of black mana accelerator that would help the card along?  A hand full of rats would be nice, but without some way to accumulate mana quickly, I think they would just sit in hand until late game, correct?

LotusHead - Call me an idiot, but how would Gaea's Blessing work in such a deck?

And just out of interest, could I see a link to your orb deck?

Is it possible, in Vintage format, to make a causal (yet competative) Relentless Rats deck? 

I've seen several older decks abusing the RR effect, however nothing as of recent.  I figured since its release there must have been something to give this deck-type further support....but my lack of knowledge of the game prevents me from answering my own question.

The reason I ask (in case you were wondering why, even as a newb, I would ask such a silly question) is that my friend recently threw a bunch of commons/uncommons (no foils and mostly crap, from what I can see, but who can complain about freebees) my way and there were 8 RRs in there.  So I figure I'm well on my way to a deck.....

RELENTLESS RATS
Creature — Rat
1bb
P/T: 2/2
Rules Text (Oracle): Relentless Rats gets +1/+1 for each other creature in play named Relentless Rats.
A deck can have any number of cards named Relentless Rats.

hmmm, maybe I rushed into this second build a little too quickly and should have stuck with tweaking the first.... regardless, I'll press on until it becomes halfway decent.

sa17dk - thanks for the input.  I'm currently trying to figure out the whole mana curve thing, and realized that I didn't have near enough low cost spells in the deck, to make any sort of a first turn move.  So all those suggestions we very helpful.

----




Kasuras -    guess I don't know the card as well as I thought.  For some reason I could've sworn that you could discard any card...but I guess that might make it a bit too powerful.

And thanks for the link, I've been trying to find something like this deck (besides the original) to help mine out, but had no idea what it was called so I could search it.

AnFgangsta - Didn't know about exhume until recently (since I have little idea about the 1000s of cards in the game, I've just been searching through a spreadsheet of all the cards I made from Oracle, and so I'm sure the filters I use exlcude some important cards now and then).

Now that I've seen a few of these decks, Bazaar of Baghdad seems to be a pretty popular.  However, isn't it a little slow?  Won't it just end up putting me a turn behind in my accumulation of mana (since I won't get to play and Island or swamp), when I could get a similar effect from something like Careful Study, while still being able to play a manasource land that turn?

I might put togther 2 versions of the deck, a mono and a BU and test them out to see which runs better for me.




WilD - thanks.  Again more evidence that maybe I rushed into this second deck a little too quickly and that I should read things more carefully.


And 2 questions to add:

1) Is it customary on this forum to note when you are using proxies?  I really didn't figure it mattered either way, but have seen people noting it in their decks lists.  Any reasoning behind this?

2) Have Reanimator decks had any success in the current "world meta" or in your guys' particular metas?  Although the original decklist I saw claimed to come from a world champ, it seemed to be out of date, and I'm not sure if it was a Vintage deck, as it was missing several of the cards that have been suggested, as well as being unpowered.

Taking what both you and the previous poster have said into account, I'm starting to think that this deck might be better as Mono-Black (with Force of Wills).  Yes?  

If so, are there any black cards with similar cost and draw/discard powers to Careful Study?

Or might the UB version work is I keep tinkering with it?

 thanks for the note on Entomb (editted first post), and for your input.

A few questions about your suggestions:

1) Do you think a careful study is warrented since I already have frantic search, flux and probe?   Should careful study replace one of these maybe?  Or might it take entomb's place?



2) Is duress better for this deck, simply b/c it's cheaper?  Wouldn't Mana Drain be all around better because it might acutally facilitate my reanimation (by giving me the extra mana) while dispruptiung their deck?



3) SO three creatures for reanimiation is enough?  I enjoy the idea of having a second win condition with the Pyschotog, so I might keep 2.

4) If I take out the Necromancer's don't I lose most of my basic early creature protection?  

I won't update the deck with most of your suggestions yet, as I need to go and find out what all the other cards you suggested do :lol:.

Thanks again!

You'll have to give me a day or so to check for ya.

As I alluded to in my first post, I'm not 100% sure that this is the case.   However, when I there was looking around, I noticed that the owner sold all packs from the Urza block and up for $4 a piece (Cdn).  This, taken with the fact that he is a close friend of mine, made me think that I could get almost any box from Urza and up for about the same price.

Thanks for all of your input.

So it appears that the general consensus is to stay away from precons and boxes, and just buy singles.

I'm also assuming, therefore, that buying a box wouldn't even help much on starting trading as very little of its contents are likely to be good.  The reason I ask is that smart trading is always more fun and economical then buying singles, but since I have no cards to speak of, I really can't trade.  And buying the singles I need for my decks will do little to help this situation.

This is my second attempt at constructing a deck, after taking into account the suggestions on my first attempt and doing a little more reading up on the game.  For all those who didn’t see my first post, I am just starting the game and have yet to play an actual match, so all and any help or suggestions are appreciated.   Also please note that I enjoy attempting to make my own decks in the CCGs I play, and do not “netdeck”, so please do not flame me for the quality of my deck in comparison to proven similar decks (I will use others’ decks to get ideas, however, as was the case with this deck, so feel free to direct me to similar decks and articles on specific deck types).

>Land / Mana>
[card]Underground River[/card]   4
[card]Polluted Delta[/card] 2
[card]Swamp[/card]   9
[card]Island[/card]   7
[card]Dark Ritual[/card]   1
[card]Black Lotus[/card]   1
[card]Mox Sapphire[/card]   5
[card]Sol Ring[/card]   1

>Creatures>
[card]Doomed Necromancer[/card]   4
[card]Apprentice Necromancer[/card]   2
[card]Psychatog[/card]   4
[card]Akroma, Angel of Wrath[/card]   1
[card]Scion of Darkness[/card]   1
[card]Phantom Nishoba[/card]   1
[card]Tidal Kraken[/card]   1

>Black Spells>
[card]Necromancy[/card]   2
[card]Necropotence[/card] 1
[card]Demonic Tutor[/card]   1
[card]Zombify[/card]   4
[card]Stitch Together[/card]   2
[card]Buried Alive[/card]   4
[card]Yawgmoths Will[/card]   1
[card]Entomb[/card]   1

>Blue Spells>
[card]Probe[/card]   1
[card]Flux[/card]   2
[card]Frantic Search[/card]   1
[card]Time Walk[/card]   1
[card]Ancestral Recall[/card]   1
[card]Force of Will[/card]   4
[card]Mana Drain[/card]   4
[card]Counterspell[/card]   2


I found an interesting deck from some world champion which focused on bringing powerful creatures from the graveyard into play, using a combination of Black and Red.  From the little bit of familiarity I gained with Blue in making my first deck, I figured that a Blue and Black similar deck might actually work quite well:  Blue and Black seems to fit together well here b/c blue can be used for its Discard, Draw and Counter abilities (that is, putting cards into the GY, without sacrificing too much hand advantage, and remaining protected through “permission” cards) while Black’s purpose is fairly obvious.
\
Breakdown (I know most of what I state below will be obvious to experienced players, but I figured it would be helpful to lay out my reasoning behind my choices; please correct me where I’m wrong)

[card]Force of Will[/card], [card]Probe[/card], [card]Flux[/card] and [card]Frantic Search[/card] all allow me to discard choice creatures/cards, without killing my hand (and of course FoW’s primary purpose will be countering, but here it’s alternate cost will often be a benefit).  I couldn’t decide which was the best of the latter 3 cards,  although I’m leaning towards [card]Flux[/card] (as it allows choice of how many cards I discard, plus offers and extra draw) which is why I used 2 copies of it and only 1 of the others.  

 [card]Force of Will[/card], [card]Mana Drain[/card],  and [card]Counterspell[/card] are, of course protection.  The Black/Red version of the deck I saw focused on permanent removal, and I figured “permission” (if that’s the right word) might make an equal or better replacement in Black/Blue.  I was told that Counterspell was not a prime choice for Vintage, however already having the Mana Drains and Force of Wills, I don’t know what is the next best choice (or if 8 permissions is enough, and if I should just take it out altogether, as I note below).  [card]Buried Alive[/card]and [card]Entomb[/card] allow me to search out the win creatures and put them in my grave to be brought back (obvs).

[card]Necromancy[/card], [card]Zombify[/card], [card]Stitch Together[/card], [card]Doomed Necromancer[/card], and [card]Apprentice Necromancer[/card] are here for obvious reasons, however I’m not sure if there are better choices.

[card]Akroma, Angel of Wrath[/card], [card]Scion of Darkness[/card], [card]Phantom Nishoba[/card], [card]Tidal Kraken[/card] are all the discardable creatures, and offer various win conditions.  However, as I’m not familiar with what are the best creatures in the game, there may be better choices.   I wanted to ensure that each had trample or flying or both, and didn’t have upkeep costs which I wouldn’t be able to maintain.  Thinking back, it might have been better if I had chosen more creatures with haste and trample or flying (if any powerful ones exist)…any suggestions on that would be great.

I thought [card]Psychatog[/card] would fit well here as early protection or as an alternate win condition, as so the deck will probably build up a sizeable graveyard pile fairly quickly (and as its BU.

Most of the other card choices should be fairly obvious.  

Questions and Problems is see with the deck:
1) The deck is far too large (77 cards).  However, I think it may be easily fixed by removing an equal portion of each key element of the deck (that is, removing some counters, some discards and some rebirth --  as it stands, I think I might have an overkill amount of cards which bring cards from the graveyard into play).  The reason I haven’t removed any yet, is b/c I am having trouble determining which are the better choices (I might remove both counterspells, but which rebirth and discard cards should go to keep an even or playable ratio between each of the needed elements/aspects of the deck?)…Or I could just remove both Counterspells, keep 4 Forces and Mana Drains, and then remove one of every card which is in has multiple copies except lands to get it around 60.  However, this method seems a little haphazard.

2) I’m still just catching on to this whole “mana curve” thing, and something is wrong with the amount of Lands and other mana sources (Too many? Too Little?).  

3) What is this type of deck commonly called (so I may search for articles/similar decks for comparison)?

Freelancer - thanks very much for the suggestions and added comments.  As you can see I have taken most of them in the revamped version of the deck.  I've convinced my girlfriend to try out the deck with me, so she can be my goldfish  :lol: (of course, she should be used to it as she has always been the first person I run a deck against in any CCG I've played) .  Any further help on the new version would be great.

However, I'm not sure what you meant by:



Are you simply trying to say that I can just waste their fetchland on nothing when slaving them?


Bram - thanks again for all your help.  You say that there is no consensus on the definition of budget vs. unpowered.  However, what about a deck that only has, let's say, 3 of the power 9?  It's obviously not budget, nor completely unpowered....but I guess this question is not that important as it's purely a matter of semantics.    

Kasuras -thanks to you too.  Although I can't say I understood all of the jargon, I found your linked post helpful (I actually saved it into my articles folder).


Bram and Kasuras (or whoever), although I understand what you are saying about the Power 9 being key to a deck's power level, both of you make it seem as if actually owning all of the power 9 is a relatively common occurance among competitive players.  Is this true?  Forgetting about proxies for a moment, do most sucessful competitive players actually own all of them?  If this is the case, I can't see anyone being truely successful in competitive Vintage play without having played since near the beginning of Magic (and therefore were able to aquire the power 9 early on for cheaper).  It might also be the case that one could get them by dropping several thousand dollars.  However, I've heard that their rarity (that they are not reprinted) and the fact that people cling to them so tightly makes them very hard to come by....so having money might not do it either.

Here is the revamped deck (I realize it still needs quite a bit of work, but these might be the first steps in the right direction).  The main problems I see is that it is still a little too large, and may be missing a viable win condition (are Standstill and Mindslaver enough?).  And although the I realize that they Genju's go against the Standstill theme, I think they might still have some use.

<LANDS>
Mishra's Factory (4)
Faerie Conclave (4)
Library of Alexandria (1)
Tolarian Academy (1)
Island (12)

<ARTIFACTS>
Crucible of Worlds (2)
Black Lotus (1)
Mox Emerald (1)
Mox Jet (1)
Mox Pearl (1)
Mox Ruby (1)
Mox Sapphire (1)
Sol Ring (1)
Grim Monolith (1)
Powder Keg (2)
Nevinyrral's Disk (4)
Mindslaver (2)

<ENCHANTMENTS/INSTANTS/SORCERY>
Genju of the Falls (3)
Standstill (4)
Tinker (1)
Accumulated Knowledge (4)
Time Walk (1)
Ancestral Recall (1)
Force of Will (4)
Mana Drain (4)
Mystical Tutor (1)

For those of you that haven't already had a laugh at my first deck attempt in my first post, I am completely new to the game, but would like to start getting ready for vintage tourney play (I know it will take a while).

I am planning on buying mostly singles, but was wondering if any of the preconstructed decks (theme decks) are ever worth purchasing -- not to actually use as they come, but instead b/c they contain a good amount of decent cards that I can therefore get all at once (I know the definition of decent cards rests largely on the deck type you are playing, but I am more questioning about generally all-around good cards such as the "power 9", although I don't expect to be able to find a deck containing those so easily).  

Also, I plan on buying at least one box of cards to get started on trading.    I believe I can get any booster box from any set from the Urza block and up from my local card shop for about the same price.  Any recommendations on which would be the best to buy in terms of tradability and playability?

Bram - Thanks for the welcome, and especially for taking the time to answer all of my questions!

I expected that my deck would not recieve much attention, being that I am a "noob" and am offering something I put together with little knowledge and no play experience (you said 'Vintage is a format somewhat different from what I'm used to playing', well I've never played any format! Not one single match :lol:  Although I do have significant experience in other CCGs).  But I'm glad to see that it's recieved at least a few replies.  

I will check out Landstill, and see what changes I can divine from there (hopefully, finding some way to get more focus).  

In the meantime, I will drop the 4 [card]Counterspell[/card]s for 2 [card]Force of Will[/card] and 2 [card]Mana Drain[/card].  I know this won't really do anything to make the deck closer to being viable, but at least it will make it a little better.


Kasuras - thanks to you also!

I'll check out Blue Belcher and the articles you suggested

As for your question:



This isn't going to be my deck, per se.  I never thought that this would certainly be the deck that I take to my first tournet.  My thought process was more this:  I'll build a deck that seems relatively complicated from scratch, and post it on a site or two that seems to have a decent rep.  Using the comments and fixes I get there, I'll be able to more see how the actual thought process of building a deck works, as well as get a better feel for the game, what mistakes I've made, etc.  Then, if the comments and fixes help me turn it into a viable deck, I can say that I (partially) created my own deck.  However, in the more likely instance that the deck is just completely worthless, I can scrap it and use what I've learned to start on a new type.  

I don't know if you'll agree, but I think the best way to learn how to do something is not to just spend hours reading up on it, but to jump right into it and learn more directly through experience.  

The reason I choose to go creatureless, therefore, is mostly because it seemed like a fairly complex route to take for a starting deck (and because Genju of the Falls kind of lent itself to this deck, and it was the first card that struck me as having great art)...

Another question to add:  How well can "un-powered" (but not necessarily budget) decks fair in vintage tourney play?  I know it will be a while (if ever) before I can get any of the "power 9".

I have just started getting into M:tG, and, after reading the basic and comprehensive rules, as well as most of the beginners articles and FAQs here and on other sites, I figured I would try and make a vintage deck.  

I've tried to build the deck on my own, based on searching through a database, the various articles I have read, and cards that appeal to me (the Genjus seemed cool) ….read: I do not “netdeck”.  So if my deck doesn’t look like the other decks of this type (i.e. good decks lol) please don’t try and make it into a cookiecutter, or be an idiot and flame me for it being crap.

I’ve put notes by some of the cards so you can see my reasoning(besides the most obvious), and correct me where I’m wrong.

I’ve also put some general questions at the bottom of the post, instead of creating a whole other post for each of them.  Any help is appreciated!

Notes on the actual Deck:

1) I was trying to make a sort of Creatureless-Control-Blue deck
2) I didn’t formally consider the “mana curve” of the deck, as I’m not quite sure what it should look like for such a deck (but I tried to have some sort of balance between lower and higher costs, since the “land monsters” are relatively cheap).
3) Right now, it looks like the main problems with the deck might be (please correct me if I’m wrong):
a. Unbalanced amount of sources of mana (maybe too many)?
b. Maybe too many creature removal/control cards? (since the decks has no creatures, I put a bunch of removal/control in specifically for creatures.  But since many of my lands could be used to block I don’t know if I have too many).
c. Right now it stands at 68 cards.  I would like it to be down to 60, but after already getting it down from 100+, I’m having some problems.
d. Not a very good “win condition”.  I can either hack away with my flying creatures, or use a beefed up [card]Chimeric Coils[/card].  But it definitely needs something better/more.


<LANDS>
[card]Blinkmoth Nexus[/card] (2) (flying, decent early protection)
[card]Faerie Conclave[/card] (4)
[card]Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai[/card] (1)
[card]Island[/card] (13)

<ARTIFACTS>
[card]Chimeric Coils[/card] (3)  (crappy potential win condition)
[card]Darksteel Brute[/card] (2)  (early protection b/c its relatively cheap and indestructible)
[card]Echo Chamber[/card] (1)  (too expensive?)
[card]Black Lotus[/card] (1)
[card]Mox Emerald[/card] (1)
[card]Mox Jet[/card] (1)
[card]Mox Pearl[/card] (1)
[card]Mox Ruby[/card] (1)
[card]Mox Sapphire[/card] (1)
[card]Sol Ring[/card] (1)
[card]Thran Dynamo[/card] (2) (setup for a next turn Coils kill)
[card]Grim Monolith[/card] (1)
[card]AEther Spellbomb[/card] (2)  (removal or draw)
[card]Pit Trap[/card] (2) (early protection/removal)
[card]Powder Keg[/card] (2)
[card]Nevinyrrals Disk [/card](4) (mass removal)
[card]Mindslaver[/card] (1)

<ENCHANTMENTS/INSTANTS/SORCERY>
[card]Concentrate[/card] (1)
[card]Time Walk[/card] (1)
[card]Genju of the Falls[/card] (4)
[card]AEther Storm[/card] (4)  (creature stall/burn)
[card]Collective Restraint[/card] (2) (creature stall)
[card]Ancestral Recall[/card] (1)
[card]Choking Tethers[/card] (2) (creature stall)
[card]Force of Will[/card] (2)
[card]Mana Drain[/card] (2)
[card]Dissipate[/card] (2)




I would also like to add some questions for my general knowledge.  Any help would be greatly appreciated (if these questions are clearly answered in some FAQ or rules compilation, don’t flame me.  I’ve probably read it, but either couldn’t get a definite answer or couldn’t remember).

1) When cards have an ability which allows you to use them as another type (ie [card]Faerie Conclave[/card] becomes a 2/1 blue creature with flying until end of turn. It's still a land.)  can they be effected by cards that effect either type.  For example, after using [card]Faerie Conclave[/card]’s effect, could it then be destroyed by a creature removal card and/or a land removal card?  After using Faerie Conclave’s effect, could it be used in [card]Day of the Dragon[/card]’s effect? How would this be different if the card didn’t say “It’s still a land”?)

2) If a card has text which states two separate effects with the same cost, I’m assuming you must choose between one and the other, and do not get both (or it would say “and”) correct? (For example with “[card]Karakas[/card]”  T: Add W to your mana pool.  T: Return target Legend to its owner's hand.)

3) It says on the banned/restricted list that “ante” cards are banned in vintage.  Does this include cards which simply mention “ante” such as [card]Amulet of Quoz[/card]?

4) Do token creatures suffer from summoning sickness?

5) If I use [card]Floodwater Dam[/card] to tap my opponent’s Island, does my opponent get  U ?  And, more generally, if I use any card to tap an opponent’s card, where that opponent’s card has some effect with tapping as a cost, does the opponent get to use the effect, even though I have tapped it through my card’s effect? (hopefully that made some semblance of sense).

6) With cards such as [card]Kormus Bell[/card], can I tap the swamps after they have become creatures to get B ?

7) For cards such as [card]Slate of Ancestry[/card] would tokens count towards the total amount of creatures I control?

8) When a spell card has “affinity for artifacts”  and costs 5UU to play.  If I control seven artifacts, do I play the spell for nothing, or must I still pay the UU?

Sorry about the length. Thanks to everyone for your help!