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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: AK Scroll Control (Urb Drain Tendrils) *Codename: Bill Cosby
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on: January 22, 2007, 06:08:36 am
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General Questions:
1) Concerning Tog vs. Tendrils, wasn't Tog hated out of the fomat by a plethora of removal cards? REB, Pyroblast, StP, Pithing Needle, Sudden Shock and, to a lesser extent, Tormod's Crypt and Leyline come to mind.
2)Smmenen&Co. thoroughly tested AK variant before they came up with the current MDG. What were his conclusions? Does anybody know? What were his arguements AGAinst this sort of deck?
Psychatog wasn't exactly hated out because of the GY hate cards. It was because there was a better kill condition called Darksteel Colossus, which is indestructable. I don't really see sudden shock in Vintage, but a lot in the Extended format. I would say Tormod's Crypt and Leyline generally cripple most of the Drain.decks in competitive Vintage nowadays. Smmenen and Co. did test the AK variant in this post about Meandeck Gifts: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=23618.0More importantly, he didn't test with the Intu/AK variant but with other different draw engines from his first article about MDG, which can be found here: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9963.html. It discussed about the different draw engines he tried and why he came up with the Merchant Scroll/Gifts Ungiven engine. @emidin Intuition/AK/Merchant Scroll was already being played by the Italians about a year and a half ago in the deck called T1T aka Type 1 Tog. Its a Tog variant commonly played in the European metagame with 3-4 Cunning Wishes and the Intu/AK/DA engine. Merchant Scroll soon found their way into the deck and some players took out Psychatog for Recoup to do the Intuition -> Recoup/Will/Lotus play. |
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: AK Scroll Control (Urb Drain Tendrils) *Codename: Bill Cosby
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on: January 17, 2007, 03:28:33 pm
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You bring up an interesting point. If 4 Intuitions is too high unless you are going for a Recoup->Yawgmoth's Will combo then perhaps the 4th Intuition could be Gifts. This makes the Merchant Scrolls more powerful since in the late game you can Scroll for Gifts and get Black Lotus, Cabal Ritual, Recoup, Yawgmoth's Will.
In the mid game Intuition is better. What I mean is your first Intuition is better than Gifts. For this reason maybe Gifts is wrong. Still, with 4 Merchant Scrolls and 3 Intuitions you should have little trouble finding your first Intuition.
Exactly. I play with 2 Merchant Scrolls myself and with 3 Intuitions, it will be likely that it is in your opening hand, or you'll draw into 1 with Brainstorm or tutor for it with Merchant Scroll. I'd rather Scroll -> A Call rather than tutoring for Intuition. My scrolls acts as a "Duress" as it can fetch FoW and reactively "Duress" away your opponent's threats, by countering it. I think 2 Duress/2 Merchant Scroll is just fine since my meta is pretty diverse. |
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: AK Scroll Control (Urb Drain Tendrils) *Codename: Bill Cosby
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on: January 17, 2007, 02:38:31 pm
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On the issue on 4 Intuition vs 3 Intuitions:
In Smmenen's article "Psychaotg 2005", it clearly states why 3 is the optimun number rather than 4. Basically, you will want more than 2 Intuitions, in this case 3, because it is you primary draw engine. Back than, people were already playing with 4 AKs main with 2/3 Deep Analysis, hence the difference between 2-3 Intuitons is paramount. Granted, drawing an Intuiton, after one has drawed 3/4-7 cards from the Intu/AK engine, is rather redundent. Hence, people don't normally play with 4 Intuiton. However, using Intuiton as a combo sercher/enabler like Gifts Ungiven is possible and has been done before, with or without Recoup. Just take for instance what Mystical Tutor and Intuition can do: Intuition for Lotus, Time Walk, Tinker and Mystical for Yawg Win.
I think the sole Tendrils of Agony is rather risky and like what TheAtogLord said, it can be easily trumped by Trickbind. Playing main deck Duress is one way around hate. BUT, since you are already playing with so much card advantage, why don't just add in Tinker/DSC. It's just good against Aggro even with their hate playing around. With Intu/AK engine, you can either go the Aggro route (aggresively Tinker/DSC) or go the control route (AK for 3 and 4), without having to be aggro-control.
In my opinion, there is nothing different between the Intuitive lists and the T1T lists piloted by Lorenzo Fedeli, the original creator of the deck). I think the only change, IMHO, is -1 Tog +1 Recoup. Some lists play Cunning Wish (Marco Ardoino's list) while some do not play Cunning Wish at all.
my 2 cents
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Premium Article] Tweaking (and further exploring) Meandeck Gifts
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on: October 28, 2006, 03:41:32 pm
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Actually, I've seen people siding out FoW/MisDs for REBs against Fish and variants and keeping their Drains in. The flip side to that is that most Fish players are adapt in playing around Mana Drains, imho.
@Gandalf,
You can actually side out Tinker+DSC for 2/3 Seasingers, using the Seasingers/Old man/Threads as kill conditions itself as it steals your opponent creatures. Talk about the tempo they will lose while you set up your play. I felt that leaving in the tutors are a must since setting up the ToA win condition is much more elegant than Tinker/DSC since Burning Wish is not in the MD.
As most of you might know, MDG is a very complicated deck to play. At times, one will get stuck with the Tutorful hand with Gifts and having so many insane plays. With such complexity, how would MDG play out against the mirrors and other drain.decs? Would it be control or aggro? Its confusing sometimes with ToA main, as it makes the deck much much faster that most players tend to just go for the kill.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Premium Article] Tweaking (and further exploring) Meandeck Gifts
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on: October 28, 2006, 10:36:49 am
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I'm actually quite suprised that you baorded out your counter magic for hate cards and REBs against Fish. How did that work out for you during tournament play? Was there any situation that you felt that the addtional counter magic of FoW and Drain were to be useful? I asking this because I feel that 4 REBs, on paper, seems very little to protect your own business (Gifts Ungiven, Merchant Scroll) and hate cards (Seasinger, Massacre, Pyroclasm).
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Premium Article] Tweaking (and further exploring) Meandeck Gifts
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on: October 27, 2006, 11:05:37 am
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@Gandalf,
That's a pretty neat sideboarding plan. However, I would want to keep the VT and MT in to find cards like Massacre or Seasinger. I never thought of ever boarding out 4 Fows and 4 Drains against U/W Fish though. I was actually planning on taking out 2 MisDs, 1 Rebuild, 1 MT and possibly ToA for 3 Seasingers and 2 Massacres. I can forsee 2 disadvantages with this boarding plan:
1. Having to fetch out Underground Sea means you're liable to Wastland. That may or may not be detrimental, as the game plan involves, like you said, bringing in hate cards (Seasingers, Massacres) and still playing with your business spells (Gifts Ungiven, Merchant Scroll).
2. The maindeck loses 4 blue cards which reduces the number of blue cards to pitch to FoW. As I still feel that MDG's role in proper against Fish should be control, losing the 2 MisDs will not be that bad as the deck gain other control cards (Seasinger, Massacre). Siding out MisDs reduces the number of pitch magic which I think is the right decision due to the number of blue cards that are being boarded out.
Another card that can be useful in the Fish match-up would be Rushing River for permanents like Null Rod. What are your views on this card? Another thing that can be noted is that since Seasingers can't evade Pyroclasm/Massacre, wouldn't it be better to have 1 Massacre and 1 Pyroclasm in the SB to add to the gift pile of lets say: Massacre, Seasinger, Pyroclasm, Tinker?
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Premium Article] Tweaking (and further exploring) Meandeck Gifts
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on: October 27, 2006, 08:28:09 am
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@Gandalf the white:
I've been actually thinking of upping the number of Seasingers to 3 in view of the U/W Fish and BirdSh*t match-up. Like you said, fish attacks the Gifts player's mana resource with cards like Stifle/Wasteland/Null Rod or disrupts the play with tempo cards like Daze/MisD. Will you actually prefer Massacre or Pyroclasm knowing that the more popular Fish builds play with White nowadays? What cards will you board out against the Fish match-up assuming you're using a SB similar to mine. I will try not to board out business spells. With Seasinger boarded in, one might actually have to keep VT and DT main just to get them when needed.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Premium Article] Tweaking (and further exploring) Meandeck Gifts
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on: October 26, 2006, 08:34:00 am
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you can always merchant scroll for PSIONIC BLAST. OMG it kills jotun grunt!
I've been using Seasingers against the U/W Chalice/Vial Fish match-up during testing and it is so good. I'm currently playing with 2 Seasingers but I'll be increasing them to 3. @hitman I haven't really tried Dark Ritual in my deck though but I've heard that it makes the deck even faster. Have you been in any situation that required you to win the following turn? Hence, the inclusion of Dark Ritual? For me, there weren't any problems playing the control role by tutoring for counter magic and just wait till you have 7 mana and just win. Also, with cards like Trickbind and Wipe Away, how would one's SB tend to differ? I feel that REB/Pryos are important as you need to stop their business spells more than cards like Trickbind/Wipe Away, because these are the cards that will help them establish supriority. Will Duress be worth the slot that REB/Pyro takes up? Anyway, here is my current SB that I've been tesing with. 2 Pithing Needle 2 Red Elemental Blast 2 Pyroblast 2 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Rack and Ruin 1 Rushing River/Chain of Vapor 2 Massacre 2 Seasinger 1 Open Slot - Most probably a Seasinger or Pithing Needle |
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Premium Article] Tweaking (and further exploring) Meandeck Gifts
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on: October 25, 2006, 02:21:21 pm
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I feel that MDG proper role in most match-ups would be Control. Imo, the deck primary plan is to play control and build up its mana to 6-7 and win with the Eot Gifts Ungiven play. Since many Fish players are adapt in playing around Drains, MDG players should not be too dependent on their drain mana. I think with ToA mainboarded makes the deck extremely fast, which is plus point against combo decks like Grim or Pitch Long. Once you know that they have no counter-magic or bombs left to play, MDG switches role into beatdown/combo. In most situations, 1 Gift will end the game or give u a better board position. I'd say I Gift pile consisting of: Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll, Mana Drain, Force of Will is quite frustrating for the combo player.
How does Dark Ritual fair for some of the players who are mainboarding it now? What cards come out maindeck to allow Dark Ritual to be played? I think right now with the printing of Wipe Away, Trickbind and Children of Korlis, the metagame will shift. Some will find it desirable or undesireable. How would one build his/her SB in lieu of these new cards, not forgetting Jotun Grunt.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Premium Article] Tweaking (and further exploring) Meandeck Gifts
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on: October 19, 2006, 12:01:45 pm
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As a Stax player, I fear the Iron man MUCH MUCH MUCH more than someone going for the tendrils kill. It might be because I do play a lot of answers against tendrils though.
I agree here. I've been testing the new MDG with the Tendrils main while keeping Rebuild in. Like what Smmenen said with Tendrils main, there are many situations you can just go off compared to the previous version of MDG which had the Burning Wish main. There were many times I was tempted to go off that I actually mis-cued and lost because I lacked that 1 Mana. Anyway, I still feel that the Tinker-DSC plan still works for me against the Stax match-up. I don't normally have a lot of mana in play and before Stax can hard lock me, its better to win via DSC as the solution. Tinker-DSC with FoW means game most of the time. |
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Starting Gifts Hand
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on: July 16, 2006, 04:27:43 am
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If you're starting first, you'll lay the moxen and cast a turn 1 FoF and take the fetchland pile. You already have Mox Ruby and Mox Jet, which provide you the important secondary colours for MDG. Hence, you'll want to fetch out a basic Island to improve your draws.
my 2 cents
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Where T1T and Gifts Collide- Intuitive Gifts
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on: February 03, 2006, 10:35:02 am
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Here's a configuration I'm using currently:
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Intuition
4 Cunning Wish
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Deep Analysis
I feel that for T1T to be able to fulfil a position of being able to switch from control to aggro without being aggro-control, 4 Cunning Wishes is essential. I'm not exactly sure how the others feel, but this config. have been working for me.
Consider the Tog vs. Control match-up. Every C.Wish in hand will equate to a REB, FOF or Scrying. Playing 4 ensures that you will either get them in hand early, or be able to draw 1. Its pitchable to FoW when the situation does not requires it's use. Depending on the situation, you can either Wish for draw sources like FOF or Scrying. When you are in a hurry to win, choices range from Fling, VT for Will, Beserk. However, my version plays Red instead of Green. So it'll just be the Fling and VT.
Merchant Scrolls are awesome in T1T. Like MD Gifts, Scroll for A Call is a very strong play which can set up a good board advantage. More often that not, an early play would be to scroll up for a call, only when you're able to protect it. Scrolling for Mana Drain or FoW is like an 'infinite' Time Walks.
My build doesn't have Recoup as it is trying to reduce the dead cards down to the DSC, hence only 2 Intuitions are required. Early in the game, Intuitions are rather dead cards, unless you have the mana to power them out early. But, T1T being a Control deck, we need don't really need to rush to set up the draw engine. With Merchant Scrolls, finding the Intu/AK engine will not be a problem.
Along with the draw configuration I'm using, here's the tutors and disruption/counters which I'm testing out:
4 FoW
4 Drains
2 Duress
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Echoing Truth - mainboard bounce is always good
The decklist for reference:
Mana Sources (23)
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
Permission/Disruption (10)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Duress
Draw/Search (13)
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
1 Ancestral Recall
Tutors (4)
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
Metagame/Control/Toolbox (6)
4 Cunning Wish
1 Fire/Ice or Chain of Vapor - can be 24th mana source (Tolarian Academy)
1 Echoing Truth
Broken (3)
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
Creatures (2)
1 Psychatog
1 Darksteel Colossus
SIDEBOARD (15)
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Coffin Purge
1 Darkblast
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Firestorm
1 Fling
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Misdirection
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rushing River
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Stifle
1 Vampiric Tutor.
Right now, I'm trying to incorporate Gifts Ungiven into this build of T1T. Replies are most welcome here. Thanks.
EDIT: Added deck list for reference.
BUMP
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: 3cc, building and playing it right.
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on: November 16, 2005, 09:14:03 am
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Nice article I must say! Many times when I'm brainstorming for ideas, I will always go back to the old school of the late 90s for resources. True enough, it does work. Gorilla Shaman have been eating moxen since its time of print and Swords to Plowsheres have been the main form of removal. Red E Blast made use of mana efficiently and Yawgmoth Will didn't just only win games.
In one section of the article regarding "crippling your opponent from mana", it highlighted a recent match-up in 2005 revolving the Gifts match-up. One with 2 mainboarded Shamans which allowed the player to gain tempo advantage by crippling his opponent's mana base. Sometimes I think, instead of playing around Drains, or draining opponent or even playing multiple REBs, a simple Shaman will do the trick by just denying your opponent of mana for solutions. Which is partyl why some tog lists play Shamans. To gain the tempo which was lost in the first few turns.
Another thing I want to highlight is the fragility of the mana base in the old traditional Keeper. As stated, with no basic lands back then, Keeper would be tore apart by B2Bs, Blood Moons and Crucible/Wasteland. Its solutions was the maindecked Island and Undiscovered Paradise for the mana to deal with Blood Moon and B2B respectively. Its evolution to 3 colour did eventually served to protect its mana base which I feel is an important aspect. If your playing without power to train your control skills, you'll know what I mean. Without Moxen, you feel the tempo lost due to Wasteland.
As said, Keeper didn't died. It just evolved into different Mana Drain archetypes which ran solutions. Be it Oath with mainboard Cunning Wishes or Gifts, Keeper's ideal still rest with the brokeness and speed of these new decks. The only difference is its defense was its best offense. TO WIN!
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: The Lack of Tog in the U.S.
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on: September 13, 2005, 05:53:25 am
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Firstly, that list looks absolutely awful to me, it doesn't look metagamed to beat anything in the format. The mana base of 8 dual lands is way to many, and I don't think that you can beat Fish with their Wastelands and Chalices. Secondly, Engineered Explosives is much better in control decks that play some combination of Wasteland, Strip Mine and Library so that you can play it for zero to kill opposing Moxes and Chalices. Also, I would not play Mind Twist in the main right now, because everybody seems to think Misdirection is such a savage maindeck card.Â
I think it is also important to note that Tog is not a mainstream deck; rather, it is a metagame deck that can be tweaked to do very specific things and win quite handily against very specific matchups.  One of the key bonuses, or reasons to play Tog, is its consistency of draws. It plays very similarly to its old extended counterpart, because it draws a shitload of cards, plays situational answers to things that slip through the counterwall that it can easily find via Wish or Scroll, and gets to Yawgmoth's Will on average a turn before the other control decks. In this sense Tog is very similar in style to Gifts.
I think it is unfair to say that Tog is a bad card, or that it is outdated. The little guy is a savage creature and a wonderful combo piece all built into one. Styles and metagames change and decks go in and out of fashion with players; right now Gifts is is the fast control deck of choice. And that is fine, it is a good deck. However, a deck like Tog can be an absolutely savvy metagame choice, as Josh Franklin clearly proved. Playing the correct deck is a difficult thing to do. One must evaluate and predict the metagame and then chose a decklist that is able to beat whatever one predicts. Even more importantly, one must predict correctly.Â
Playing Gorilla Shaman's and Engineered Explosives in a deck that wants to race to Yawgmoth's Will is an awful decision. If one wants to play that particular style play a slower control deck that actually wants to control the board and build up. Slaver or 3cc are both good examples of decks that might utilize this strategy. Josh Franklin hit the nail right on the head, if you speed Tog up and give it consistency you can actually race the other control decks and outdraw one's opposition. Merchant Scroll in the maindeck is an extremely powerful addition, and the fact that you can scroll for Echoing Truth and other maindeck situational cards, as well as Recall or Intuition makes his list clearly better than one that runs Gorilla Shaman and Explosives.Â
Also, Tog is a much better threat against FCG and correct builds of fish. I cannot stress this enough, Psychatog kills an opponent in one turn. Draksteel takes two swings. Psychatog races better than any other creature in the game. Also, the issue of Duress. Duress is only good against Combo, because that is the only match up in Magic where I would be willing to spend my mainphase mana (tempo) and a card to trade for one of my opponents cards. It is usually a much stronger strategy to just play your own threats and make an opponent react to you.Â
And, in my opinion as powerful as paying 3 mana and and artifact to play an 11/11 guy is, adding the Tinker / Colossus combo to every single deck seems 'newbalicious' to me. Decks don't need the option of doing that to win. If your deck is streamlined to do a specific job, and the pilot understands how to do that job correctly, then one shouldn't need to rely on the Colossus Crutch to win games. Cutting Psychatogs from a Tog deck simply means that ones gameplan becomes more muddled and uncertain. Not only is Colossus a dead card when he is in your hand, but he also makes Tinker a dead card. Tog is almost never dead. He pitches to Force of Will and is an extremely aggressive threat, especially against Stax. There is nothing I hate more when playing a slow Stax hand than an early beatdown Psychatog, because he wins the game.
Tog is a metagame deck. In order for the deck to be good, one has to evaluate the metagame and play with a variant of the deck that can win against a predicted field. Franklin did this with his Green-Atog list, and it paid off in spades. However, Tog has never been a deck that rewarded netdeckers. or somekind of standardized version of the deck, the way that Stax and Slaver do. Tog has many, many, open card slots and it takes a really strong player to figure out what they should be for any given tournament.
@forcefieldyou: Obviously you haven't played with this build yet. Since that Fish is my worst match-up, I'd tested heavily against all its variants: WTF, Ur Fish and UW Fish. Of all the 3, I'd say that UW Fish is the hardest amongst the 3 match-ups. Why do I say that this deck is good? 4 Island. Like Oath, I modified this Tog of mine to have a stable mana base like that of Oath, hence, 4 Islands are a must in the main deck. Along with 5 blue fetches and 8 dual lands, you'd expect Fish to keep mana denying me and don't lay its threats? If you say yes, then I would say that I need to survive to 3 mana and a red source in my hand to Cunning Wish and play Firestorm. Adding Gorilla Shaman allows you to have an edge over Null Rod with drain mana. Remember, you have 4 copies of Mana Drain in your mainboard. My metagame is basically Combo-Control and anti-Combo-Control. Decks like SSB, Meandeck Gifts, TPS, Stax and Fishes are even swimming around my meta game. Reagrding my mana base. Playing 4 copies of Underground Sea and Volcanic Island reduces the need to fetch for them in desperate situations. Having your Fetchland stifled and you forceing them and them dazing you, you die! I'd rather them Wasteland then Stifling my fetchlands. Most of the time against Fish, you fetch for Island. Like what Smmemnen said in Psychatog 2k5, you need to plan your mana base properly as per match up. Against decks with Wasteland, fetch for Island. This is what I do against Fish and Stax. Fetching for Sea against combo and volcanic island against control is golden. Still on the issue about the mana base, Library of Alexandria is a bane due to the many Wastelands in the format. I say it is a bane because it does undesirable effects to the mana base. Do you remove 1 Volcanic Island or Underground Sea for the Library. Boseiju is situational and a metagame call. Right now it seems like a good card to play mainboard. I agree with your opinion on running 4 Merchant Scrolls as it can search up mainboard solutions. However, saying that scrolls are better than Shaman and EE is not exactly right. I've tested with Gorilla Shaman replacing Tog and I found them very good, so good that I removed my maindecked Mystical Tutor for Gorilla Shaman, allowing Tog to remain in the deck. Shaman does not win the game. We both agree on that. It gains back the tempo advantage that Stax tries to build. It does not affect the Gifts match up though. It was not meant to do that. Its main purpose is: to gain back tempo advantage. This point is very important as Psychatog is a tempo black hole, like what Smmenen said in his article. Hence, gaining back that was lost us Uber. Right now I'm playing with 24 mana sources and getting mana flooded most of the time. Hence I might actually cut down to 3 Islands to have the Tog/Shaman/Colossus creature base and have Mystical Tutor at the same time. For most of you who don't know, my deck is simply a modification of Marco Ardoino's deck who got 8th in French Vintage Championships. I'm not saying that I'm playing his deck cuz it got Top 8. I'm playing it cuz I like solution list of his SB, and how it plays control very well. To fircefieldyou: Please don't let this reply of mine tell you that I don't take your opinions. I thank you for your reply and it gave me further insights on how Tog can be beaten and its weakness. A question which is off topic. How do you find Meandeck Oath?  |
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: The Lack of Tog in the U.S.
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on: September 12, 2005, 04:38:25 am
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@Smemnen: Gorilla Shamans did wonders, gaining advantage and at the same time, improved the match-up against 5c Stax. Got rid of poesky artifacts like Pithing Needle, Null Rods, Chalices, etc However, I still found Psychatog to be another kill condition in the deck. Here is my revised list.
T1T 2k5 ver1.0
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
7 SoloMoxen
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Psychatog
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
4 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
SIDEBOARD
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Firestorm
1 Fling
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Lava Dart or Fire/Ice
1 Misdirection
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Gush
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rushing River
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Snuff Out
1 Stifle
I took out both Misdirection and Skeletal Scrying from the sideboard to add in Gush and Vampiric Tutor. Initially, I tested the original version with the sideboarded Skeletal Scrying and found that it had synergistic factors with Cunning Wish. It's like a regrowth factor without needing the tog to be in the field. However, I found that paying 2 life is much better than playing >3 to draw cards when you can find the game ending Yawgmoth's Will or a utility card like Shaman. In addition, since I took out the mainboarded Mystical Tutor for Gorilla Shaman, I felt that Vamp Tutor deserves a place in the sideboard to function as how Mystical Tutor functioned in the mainboard. Regarding Gush, I found that it won many games 2-3 turns earlier with Psychatog. Cunning Wish/Gush is often (NOT EVERYTIME) a game winning combo by itself.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: The Lack of Tog in the U.S.
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on: September 12, 2005, 12:16:33 am
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DSC is a win CONDITION and tog is a win ENABLER.
I have to agree with Liam-K here. DSC at times is the win condition. The only situation and match-up I can see that is the Fish match up pre boarding. Tinker/Colossus is normally protected for 2 turns and Tog just wins via Colossus. Post board would be brutal for 'Tog because Fish will board in Red Elemental Blast, but 'Tog will have Cunning Wish/Firestorm to back up its winning plan. Tog has become more control than combo these few seasons. You can call it the Neo-4c Control with a more stable mana base and faster win condition Steve Menedian stated also that Tog cna play without Psychatog and just play Gorilla Shamans in its stead. I'm going to test this theory and see if it works. Right now, I'm satisfied with the list I'm playing. What I said was that you can go: -3 Tog + 1 Tinker + 1 Colossus + 1 Shaman And be fine. I didn't say you could just cut Togs for Shamans - but you can cut Togs for Shamans + Tinker/Colossus. @Smmenen: Yup, I get what you mean. My Tog list can be found on page 1 that is highly similar to that of the previous 2 lists that xrizzo posted that runs only 1 Psychatog and Tinker/Colossus. I haven't tested out the Gorilla Shaman over Tog thingy, perhaps you can give us some insights on why Shaman is a more efficient inclusion over Tog. Another question is that whether Tog needs Library of Alexandria, and how should the mana base look like if I'm playing Ubr Tog. This is my mana base at the moment. 4 Island 5 Fetches 5 Moxen 1 Lotus 1 Sol Ring 4 Volcanic Island 4 Underground Sea |
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: The Lack of Tog in the U.S.
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on: September 11, 2005, 08:17:52 am
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DSC is a win CONDITION and tog is a win ENABLER.
I have to agree with Liam-K here. DSC at times is the win condition. The only situation and match-up I can see that is the Fish match up pre boarding. Tinker/Colossus is normally protected for 2 turns and Tog just wins via Colossus. Post board would be brutal for 'Tog because Fish will board in Red Elemental Blast, but 'Tog will have Cunning Wish/Firestorm to back up its winning plan. Tog has become more control than combo these few seasons. You can call it the Neo-4c Control with a more stable mana base and faster win condition Steve Menedian stated also that Tog cna play without Psychatog and just play Gorilla Shamans in its stead. I'm going to test this theory and see if it works. Right now, I'm satisfied with the list I'm playing. Psychatog, like Oath of Druids, can play the Aggro or Control role when necessary without being Aggro-Control. This switching of roles is very important during the Fish and Prison match-up. The timing of casting Cunning WIish is crucial to success. Take a game against Cron/Chang 5c Stax. Both these builds have irritating cards like Sphere of Resistance, followed up by Wasteland/Strip Mine. This play, no doubt simple, is GOLDEN. The tempo gained from a resolved Sphere is 1x Time Walk and the Wasteland is another 1x Time Walk. Whether Tog survives the lock depends on whether the CLOCK components are in play, namely, Titan or Karn. If these 2 are not yet out, 'Tog can Wish for a solution at the correct time. My personal favourite is Hurkyl's Recall. More importantly, when one Wishes, his/her game plan is almost and always fixed. So proper planning and correct assumptions will win you the game. Don't be complacient and think that Cunning Wish is out there to out broken and win the game. |
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: The Lack of Tog in the U.S.
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on: September 09, 2005, 11:10:04 pm
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I'd like to run Tog in our meta (mostly unpowered) and I see that Tog has the tools needed to take out the artifacts, fish and oath decks. I'm sleeving up a budget build (sans P9). I'd just like some help with the aggro matchup. Green is usually fine since Tog stops their aggro, but I'm having a bit of trouble with red. I'm ashamed to say it, but I've always had an awful record against red. My EBA lost to red in the semis...  Bad experience... You can scroll up and see the list that I'm running. It has Tinker/Colossus and EE to deal with the aggro decks. Hence, 'Tog doesn't need to play Green anymore and can take up a more controllish role with red. Like what Steve Menedian said in this Tog 2k5 article, 'Tog can play the control role very well, as well as the aggro role without being Aggro-Control. This is the same with Oath :p |
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: The Lack of Tog in the U.S.
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on: September 09, 2005, 10:55:56 pm
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@ Draven: Duress is very good against Gifts, however Mind Twist is HORRIBLE. Not only is MT a juicy Drain target, but it is also great MisD target. If Gifts get a 5-6 mana Drain burst out of MT, you lose. If Gifts MisD's the MT you lose. It really is crap-tastic against Gifts Yes I can agree with what you say. With Fish being another force in my environment, Mind Twist might not seem to be the right choice at the moment. In the small tournaments I play, there are a limited number of Gifts decks running around (SSB, Meandeck Gifts, and so on). @ onelovemachine : I am another fan of Tog here  Recently, with the increasing popularity of Control Slaver, many players who play 'Tog decided not to play it because of CS. Fish is also another contender with its renown mana denial. Playing a lot of BASICS help here. There is a reason why Oath pwns Aggro-Control dekcks like Fish and Bird Sh*t. Regarding Merchant Scroll and Mystical Tutor, I'm currently not sure which to use as my deck list is different from yours. Most of the time I will Scroll for A Call, 4th AK, Intuition or maybe a Mana Drain. |
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: The Lack of Tog in the U.S.
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on: September 09, 2005, 02:39:13 pm
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Psychatog has a chance to become a contender again. The hard thing is that it needs A LOT of testing and proper timing. Eg. When to cast Cunning Wish for a solution, etc. It's becoming like 3cC but it has a more stable mana base and quicker win condition. Tinker/Colossus proves to be a faster victory, hence decks recently play with a Tinker and Darksteel Colossus inside, with only 1-2 Psychatogs. With so many combo in the field thanks to Gifts Ungiven, Duress has became strong again. Psychatog has like 2 Duresses and 1 Mind Twist in the mainboard to allow it to assume control in the early to late game. This is the list I'm currently testing and has proven good results against the bad match-ups. Mana (24) 4 Island 3 Underground Sea 4 Volcanic Island 3 Polluted Delta 2 Flooded Strand 5 Moxen 1 Black Lotus 1 Sol Ring 1 Library of Alexandria Protection (10) 4 Force of Will 4 Mana Drain 2 Duress Bombs (3) 1 Tinker 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Mind twist Kill Condition (3) 1 Psychatog 1 Darksteel Colossus 1 Engineered Explosives (good against Oath, Welders - suprisingly) Draw/Search (21) 4 Brainstorm 4 Accumulated Knowledge 3 Intuition 4 Cunning Wish 2 Deep Analysis 1 Mystical Tutor/Merchant Scroll 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Time Walk 1 Demonic Tutor SIDEBOARD (15) 1 Fact or Fiction (draw) 1 Firestorm (Fish and its variants) 1 Fling (win condition for Tog, DSC) 1 Hurkly's Recall (Stan and its variants) 1 Lava Dart (Welders, this is better than Fire/Ice) 2 Misdirection (Cunning Wishable) 2 Rack and Ruin (Aggro Workshop) 1 Red Elemental Blast (4/3Cc, Tog, Gifts, D4rg0n...) 1 Rushing River (opposing DSC, Oath - this is better than Eching Truth, Planar Void, Chains) 1 Skeletal Scrying (synergy with Cunning Wish) 1 Snuff Out (Exalted Angels) 1 Stifle (storm) - I had a test session with Suicide Black Control, I had to play all 3 games with either Chains, Void or any of that hedious combination. Suffice to say, I won all that match-ups. The key is being patient, and knowing when to cast Cunning Wish for Rushing River - Cunning Wish/MisD is good play here as well. - Firestorm proved its usefulness against Fish, along with mainboarded Engineered Explosives. - Skeletal Scrying > VT in the sideboard as it has synergistic factors with Cunning Wish - The deck runs 4 Cunning Wishes and it seems to me that this deck is more geared towards using Cunning Wish EFFECTIVELY to control the game. The key is to control, not to out broken. |
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: ~Whcih deck to play~ T1 power, 10-proxie
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on: August 25, 2005, 10:11:56 am
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I have an Oath list that got me top4 in a 10 proxy tourny. I'll explain the card choices later. Here's the list:
Mana (23)
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Polluted Delta (2 Strand/2 Delta)
5 Island (4 Island/1 Tolarian Academy)
1 Tropical Island
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
Combo (8)
4 Oath of Druids
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Spirit of the Night
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Gaea's Blessing
Counter Base (14)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection
Draw/Search (16)
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Intuition
2 Impulse
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
-Â I found Tinker/Colossus very good as it is a random win condition
-Â Mana Crypt is in there for the burst of acceleration OR for Tinker/Colossus
- Tolarian Academy is currently being tested since this deck list plays with 7 mana accelerants.
-Â 2 Waste effects is needed since 3 is too much
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Discussion] The Question of Oath?
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on: June 05, 2005, 10:53:26 am
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Here's my Oath list. 61 cards. 1 extra Intuition Mana (23) 1 Lotus 5 SoloMoxen 4/5 Island 2/1 Tropical Island 4 Fetchland 4 Forbidden Orchard 2 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine Win Condition (8) 4 Oath of Druids 1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath 1 Spirit of the Night 1 Platinium Angel 1 Gaea's Blessing Counters (15) 4 FoW 2 Counter Spell 2 Mana Drain 4 Mana Leak 1 Misdirection 2 Metagame Slots (Stifle, Daze, 1 Misdirection/1 Stifle) Draw/Search (15) 4 Brainstorm 4 AKs 3 Intuition (1 Intuition added to the 60 cards) 2 Impulse 1 Time Walk 1 A Call Sideboard (15) 1 Iridescent Angel (3/4c Control, anti-spot removal) 1 Pristine Angel (same) 1 Ancient Hydra (welder based decks) 3 Ground Seal (dragon, welder based decks) 2 Naturalize (Anti-SB Hate cards: Aura Fracture, Plat angel, Eon Hub) 3 Energy Flux (stax) 2 Back to Basics (4cC, DeathLong) 2 Arcane Laboratory (TPS, DeathLong) Even if you're not starting the thread, you need more than just a decklist in your posts. Verbal warning for spam. Please go check out the TMD Rules.
-Jacob |
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Discussion] The Question of Oath?
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on: May 30, 2005, 06:38:40 am
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After playtesting, I found that SDT along with Serum Visions is very good, Especially if your next 2 cards contain one of the three creatures. This might happen as this deck plays 3 creatures. Ancient Hydra allow board conrol against aggro decks like Goblins or FCG. In my opinion, I don't think you should remove your Serum Visions for the Needles as visions is essential in the search and draw engine.
How would your sideboarding be like against the other decks in Vintage? Eg. Control based decks, Combo, Aggro.
Whats with the lone Living Wish in the SB?
Lastly, its regarding the timing of casting Top and Serum Visions. Do you cast it on Turn 1 or wait in the later part of the game?
Crypt vs Ground Seal, I'm not really sure which one is better. Help me on this, thanks. I've been really interested in your deck
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Discussion] The Question of Oath?
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on: May 29, 2005, 11:58:45 pm
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To Khanan:
Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate it. I've been goldfishing with the deck and I seem to like the draw engine.
Just one question, is Sleight of Hand better than Serum Visions for your deck? Would Pithing Needle see play in your Sideboard?
Lastly, what wound be your sideboarding plans against the gaunlets in T1?
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