Sylvan Library today. 

--->DJ

Lightning Bolt is a fantastic addition.  It's also very exciting, as it really shows us WotC isn't fooling around.  Four days, four official previews, and four cards that are of high power or value in the paper world.  I think this is going to be huge.  I haven't bought packs of anything online since Mirrodin block, nor the paper world since the release of Ravnica, and I'm already drooling thinking about shredding open some online packaging.

In any case, there's no doubt that the format is going to see restriction in September.  I believe this is one of the reasons that Worth told the community that the whole MED set would be spoiled by then.  All signs point to restricted cards popping up in here somewhere, and I'm sure that some we already have will also be on the chopping block.

@ Jav-

You're missing the point on Flash.  Because a deck is beatable somehow doesn't mean it shouldn't be touched.  Heck, I remember playing pre-restriction Long in vintage.  Even that could be tripped up on the draw by a Duress.  It still got nailed hard.

The fact is that once MED hits, the deck will have several things going for it that will make it strong enough that it will be format distorting.  Not *unbeatable*, but distorting, which is not healthy.

-With Dreadnaught errata removed, it now laughs at Pithing Needle.
-With Stifle, it can change up and run an aggro plan over Mage, Samurai, and Leyline.
-Most importantly, with access to a full eight free hard counters, it can effectively invalidate any opponent in the first turn.

And remember, even now, it still gets the draws to win through any of that stuff. 

We're talking an environment where most decks will need to run blue for Force and maindeck Leyline to have a chance, and that's not healthy.  Not to mention that we haven't seen any of the mana acceleration offerings in the set.  If for some reason we get Elvish Spirit Guide, the deck will be unstoppable.

--->DJ

 

Two Flash lists out of 18.  Tons of hate.

Affinity wins again.

--->DJ

Especially in the face of Flash combo becoming viable.  With Doomsday, you've got a combo that is much slower and harder to protect.  It may even work out to be slower than Affinity or Goblins.

--->DJ

I'm afraid of the Classic Online metagame.  =)

In all seriousness though, as I described in my primer, the deck as I designed it is all about numbers.  Any effect that runs as a eight-of in the deck will (on average) put one into your hand every opener.  I found that, running five disruption spells, I would have hands without disruption, and they would fold to any threat.  Running eight slots gives me the odds to have the answer I need every opening hand. 

Incidentally, as people got used to the deck, often the card named with Mage was Burning Wish, which is much more problematic.  And I'm pretty sure True Believer is a major problem for the deck if it goes unanswered, since you can't target your opponent with the Tendrils, forcing you to hope that you hit your bounce off the Desire or scoop.  That's the major reason to run so much disruption, and also a reason why adding access to Empty The Warrens is so strong.

Duress is very bad to face in my testing.  Brainstorm makes it better, but not much more than Vampiric Tutor, and both of those are terrible on the play.  Discard is really the main weakness of the deck; it's a bye for mono-black hand disruption.  (I know this from experience, sadly...)


I come from a long history of Vintage and Legacy, and I'm fully aware of the power of Brainstorm...but it tested terribly in *this* deck.  The only reason to play a deck like this is to be able to race anything else in the format, which means aiming for turn two.  For that reason, I got rid of the fetchland manabase (which I agree is great, especially with Brainstorm), because it wasn't as strong as just tutoring up the win.  In this format, this deck can't afford to sit back and look for answers or develop.  Goblins and Affinity win on turn four.  Control decks will have Chalice or Counterbalance up on turn three with backup.  Aggro-control decks will drop Chalice, then Mage, then True Believer, and be beating you with their prevention.  You simply have to strike before your opponent can set up; I figured out that my chances of winning in the face of one piece of disruption were much higher than two or more, so I redesigned to do just that.


I run the max allowed with room for one in the board simply because the deck lives and dies by Desire.  If you can only muster up a storm count of 4 before playing Desire, your chances of fizzling are pretty good.  If you reveal a Desire, you're almost guaranteed *not* to fizzle, so I wanted to maximize my chances of hitting another off the first Desire.  Besides, drawing one is not ever a problem since you can simply adjust your plan to Wish or tutor up a Sins Of The Past anyway.  Sometimes, it's easier on the mana that way to boot.


The rainbow manabase makes it easier to run the deck in the first place; when every land will allow you to Vamp Tutor, or Chain, or Rite, you're never worried about looking at a hand of two Rite, Island, and Grave.  Anything goes.  As well, it opens up Xantid from the board, which proved to be golden over Grid for three reasons:

1) It costs one less and comes down on turn one, which puts your opponent on the defensive, forcing him to deal with it under fear of losing on turn two.  Great utility, great psych-out card.  And if they want to aim a Helix on turn two at my Swarm, I'm stoked, because they now have no mana to stop my win as soon as I untap.
2) Most opponents realize what they're facing game one, and board out creature hate for game two.
3) If the game goes later, the value of Defense Grid falls off dramatically, whereas Swarm is golden no matter.

When it comes down to it, you don't want to waste a Rite Of Flame turn one to play Grid, and you want to be winning turn two by Infernal Tutoring or Wishing for Desire.  Believe me whan I say that the chances of this deck *in this format* drop drastically past the second turn.  As a result, I built it to win by turn two.

--->DJ

Like I said, it's a pet deck of mine.  It's very cool to see other people also giving it a chance.


Originally, I ran five slots for disruption; the playset of Duress, as well as a single tutorable Chain Of Vapor.  What I found was that in the current Classic Online format, that is less than optimal.  I found that I wanted to have a piece in my opener every time, to enable my sideboard to really shine.  Decks in the format (at the time) tended to run in three different ways- Aggro-control with all permanent disruption (True Believer, Meddling Mage), control with instants (Chant, counters, Stifle), or discard.  Strangely enough, these types (pre-Flash, anyway) rarely mixed.  The third really owns this deck, and is the primary reason I tried to wick up the speed a notch; they can't disrupt me if I've just won, and if I stick around for turn three, I probably won't.  For the other two, though, the ability to have a virtual guarantee of a protection card in each opener is crucial, and eight slots lets you swap out the half that doesn't work (Duress against permanents, bounce versus control) to have a winning combination post-board every time. 

Granted, the Wishes and Tutors help too, but from hours and hours of matches and playtesting, this deck simply can't sit around and let the control player table CounterBalance plus backup mana, or let Haterade table Mage plus Believer.  My game plan is to disrupt with disruption, and win with everything else most of the time.


On top of the Chrome Moxes, I simply never saw need to go above fifteen permanent mana sources.  If one in every four cards is permanent mana, I'll almost always have what I need for turn two.  I tried the extra lands for a while, and ended up flooded too frequently.  My design functions around ramping up to a Desire for five or six, and I found it essential to reduce the chances of flipping land.


Actually, this deck was designed a long time after the Coldsnap precons came out.  I dismissed Brainstorm very early in testing, as it just doesn't work with a rainbow mana base.  Without fetchlands to shuffle away the junk after a Brainstorm, I was finding myself in situations very often where I would not find a tutor, put back two marginal cards, and then basically get stuck Time-Walking my opponent for two turns, which was nearly always game over for me.  I found it far stronger to build the deck to be resiliant on the strength of the construction and tutors, and be able to run the rainbow manabase that would let me come in with amazing cards like Xantid Swarm post board.

The big thing here is that my perceptions of this deck changed *drastically* after actually getting experience in the Classic format with it.  Things I thought were golden fell flat, and things I would never normally do ended up unlocking the deck completely.  I ended up re-writing large parts of the primer after going back to test things.  It's a crazy format, and it truly does test your preconceptions of what should and shouldn't work.
 
--->DJ

Unfortunately, the very strict adherance to the rules the MTGO Client provides also really hurts any sort of looping in a timed game, since timing out of your alloted time in a match equals an immediate match loss.  This was a huge issue last year when Dragon was being run in the ES.  I personally had one match where I won 2-0, comboing out on my first turn in the first game and my second turn in the second game, and even then, the match nearly went to time and I won with only 25 seconds left on my game clock.  You have to click through all of the priority stops Online. 

In any case, PJF is correct on the Disciple win.  (Which some might argue is better anyway...it's certainly the combo I would choose if given the opportunity.)

--->DJ

THat makes sense.

So, in theory, if Hulk Flask proves to be a deck that absolutely destroys the Classic field, you believe the correct play is to leave it alone, and call on WotC to take action?

--->DJ

Coming from a format where there has been plenty of upheaval in the B/R list, and even a history of "player-run events" that institute their own rules (proxies, etc...), what's your take?  I agree that WotC won't touch Classic; for the sake of competetive playability, when/where should people running their own tournaments step in?  Should the Classic Quarter PRE's be governed by its' own B/R list eventually?

--->DJ 

That's an interesting question.  Wasteland is much better in formats that have better artifact mana sources, like Vintage.  Even in Legacy, Wastelands are often hit or miss due to this.  But they are played, and I think the metagame players will notice that there are far too many non-basic manabases and make good use of Wasteland.  My Storm build is very fast currently, but uses nothing but rainbow lands, and would absolutely roll over to Wasteland with any hand barring a god draw. 

I see quite a few current decks that will need to re-tool their manabases as long as players adopt Wasteland.

--->DJ

Infernal Tutor is golden in this deck in the same ways the Burning Wishes are.  LED is just that good.

What I've found is that the deck seems to be much more resiliant once it gets away from the Chromatic Sphere/Star.  I find that avenue to be nearly totally un-necessary with the current builds of the deck; the correct mana is very easy to come by, and the Storm count is cake with Mind's Desire.  It also allows you to get away from the colorless mana-producing lands...I can't say enough about having access to rainbow lands in order to bring in Xantid Swarm post-board.   

As well, the Empty The Warrens alternative win condition allows the deck to sneak in under control quicker, and also gives the deck some flexibility with the necessary Storm count.  I really feel any list not running access to ETW is a sub-par list. 

You really see issues with Chrome Mox?  I love the card...it's one of the best available acceleration cards we have, and it is an easy free Storm count off Desire.  You're absolutely right about Lotus Petal, though.  I can't wait for that addition. 

--->DJ

 

This is a discussion currently ongoing over in the Classic Quarter forums - http://www.classicquarter.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=203

As originally posted by Hamtastic:


I think this is important to discuss as a community, as Classic enjoys a lot of freedom with the cardpool, but perhaps at the expense of a very lax policing policy by Wizards.  It may very well be necessary to self-impose restrictions and/or bans on the PREs if things get out of hand in some way.  (Clearly, this is very relevant in the face of the upcoming debut of Hulk Flash online.) 

-What are the criteria we should look at? 
-How would this issue be complicated in the face of the official Constructed queues and/or any PEs that may be scheduled?

--->DJ

Absolutely...Danger is right on. 

I also beat myself up trying to run this deck versus the field for a while; it's a bit of a pet deck for me.  I have to chalk up some of my issues to the deck with some ridiculous luck (I know it sounds like a cop out, but explain losing to Affinity for a potential top-8 slot at ES Worlds when he opens on Land, Land, Duress, Duress, Duress, and then draws the fourth Duress and Mana Leak in the following turns...), but it's true that this deck can be easily set back a turn or two, and that puts it in the danger zone as far as speed goes.

I did write a pretty massive two-part primer on the deck too:

http://www.classicquarter.com/articles/005_070312.asp
http://www.classicquarter.com/articles/006_070321.asp

--->DJ

But Danger, if you read everything I've been saying, you'll note that I've already addressed these two things!  In the first place, I've stated (over and over and over) that the 'turn-0' win is not even close to the most compelling reason to play Caverns;  In fact, if it were the only benefit from doing so, I'd probably dismiss it, since that win happens on average once in a blue moon.

Again, getting to look at an extra card is part of the advantage.  But the more important part is the ability to act or react first in the game.  I challenge you to find one scenerio where being able to VampTutor prior to your first draw in the game is worse than drawing a random card first and then Vamping.  On the same token, anyone testing this deck knows how crucial it is to have the correct opening hand, and conversely, how hard it is when you mulligan into it, only to be Duressed before you can act.  THAT'S the true advantage of this card.

And you're right...closet cases don't fly in the face of math.  I'm citing hundreds of test games over the past few weeks.
 

That's not a point I would readily forget.  In fact, this is one big reason why I'll call your strategy of sideboarding in Caverns as fatally flawed. You're setting yourself up to run into exactly the situation you just described, while not allowing yourself the advantage of Caverns with no Leyline pressure game one.

If you'll notice, the example I cited above was a game one example.  Clearly, the card I would have pitched to the Caverns was the Chain.  In response to my opponent's opening Duress, I Vamp for Flash, leaving no Duress targets and an opponent with no mana to act.  I untap for my turn one and win.  Academic. 

--->DJ

This is the important part IMO.  Does it really nullify your advantage? 

I posted a bunch of test data, but the gist of it is, at least as it applies to Hulk Flash, that the deck wants to mulligan.  Alot.  The deck was way faster under an aggressive mulligan than by keeping a safe hand most of the time.  The beauty of such a redundant build is that it's pretty easy to find some combination of a Hulk, a Flash, or the cards to find them.  Look at a hand like:

Mox
Delta
Hulk
VampTutor
Chain
Watery Grave
Echoing Truth

I drew this exact hand in a test game.  My opponent on the play went Grave, Duress, and took my Vamp, shutting me off.  Just to see what would happen, I mulliganed to six (unkeepable), and then to five, where I saw:

Caverns
Chain
Hulk
Vamp Tutor
SSG

That's a net loss of -3 card advantage, and the difference between winning on my turn one, or probably losing the game in topdeck mode. 

The mulligan might lose you card advantage, but if it can gain you card quality so easily, Caverns truly shines.


Currently, I bet there's a very real chance that you'll be able to be on the play nearly 100% of the time when it matters.  I realize that this might change when Future Sight is released and this deck is viable, but right now, *no-one* draws.  If you win the roll and crush your opponent, there's a good chance currently that he'll choose to play, giving you the draw again.  If he chooses to draw, you either win in spite of it, or lose, and get the draw again in game three.  This reverses if you lose the roll, but again, right now, nearly every Classic player who wins the roll chooses to play, and if that's the case, you get the same result. 

Which means it's almost a non-issue, and it comes down to mulliganing for optimal use of your card-pool. 


This may prove to be the case once this deck catches on and players realize that if they let a Hulk player draw, they might lose before they get a main-phase.  Like I said, strategic use of play/draw choice.  But for now, I feel like it's always worth the risk, as decks that play Duress typically main-deck them and will usually open with them if possible. 

--->DJ

Interesting...I've had far greater success in Hulk Flash testing with Caverns over Mox.  Again, the ability to protect your opening hand via Brainstorm or Vamp/Mystical Tutor in the face of Swamp->Duress is so critical, since this deck loves to mulligan into the perfect hand but hates to lose any cards.

The thing to keep in mind is that chances are better than not that you will be drawing at least 50% of the time...this deck may alter the format, but currently, no-one chooses to draw, which might push that number higher.  Who knows...choosing to draw might become a form of disruption after this deck sees some play.

I can see and agree with your assessment about the speed of the format; I think you're right about Tempest, but Hulk Flash in and of itself might also serve to speed the format up.  It may become literally game-breaking if control decks can't answer a first turn play on the draw.

As far as other combo decks go, I'm not sure this is a bad call.  If you run Caverns with the mindset that it basically acts as acceleration (and not a land drop), I can see this helping almost all combo greatly.  Any deck that needs a boost in early tutoring will see a benefit from Caverns as long as Vampiric Tutor remains legal and un-restricted, IMO.   

--->DJ

In light of all the hype surrounding  a "turn-0" win with the Hulk Flash decklists floating around, Gemstone Caverns is starting to being dragged out of the 50-cent rare bin and put to...well, debatable use.  There are some high-profile proponents of the card, and just as many people calling it out as a worthless addition to any deck.  The more I test it, however, the more I'm coming to realize that Classic Online is in a unique position to get the most from this card.

The reason for this is a lack of any real disruption in the format that can be applied before a player makes his or her first land drop.  I'm aware that Disrupting Shoal exists; however, despite some limited use in the Eternal Struggle PREs, the card has just not caught on, mostly due to a very narrow usage that requires most of the deck applying the card to build for it.  The chances that you'll manage to have Shoal plus the blue card with the correct casting-cost ready to go in any given hand is just too much of a reach.

As a result, Gemstone Caverns is in a very unique position.  It essentially can function in the format as a superior Chrome Mox; it has an identical card disadvantage played early, and late comes down as a vanilla drop requiring nothing else, where the Mox always requires the loss of a card.  (I realize the Mox also always ends up producing colored mana, which is a benefit on occasion later in the game.)  Early, the Caverns will always produce the correct color of mana as well, where the Mox often is a tradeoff between what you need immediately, and what you need later.  Both offer equal first-turn acceleration.

Where the Caverns jumps out into the lead is the ability to duck early disruption and set up a turn quicker than the Mox.  Versus a Duress on the play, the Caverns player can Brainstorm in response to hide key cards, or Vamp/Mystical tutor to save a setup that might have otherwise been discarded.  The benefit of being on the draw and Tutoring before your first turn is also huge, as you draw what you need right off the bat, thus not wasting a draw that the Mox player must endure.

Obviously, this comes into the spotlight due to the presence of Flash, but I think this card might go further than that.  Like the other Eternal formats, the first few turns are crucial to winning the game in many cases.  Can control decks benefit from being able to Force Spike or Stifle an opponent on the play, for example? 

Is this card close to being strictly better than Chrome Mox?

--->DJ   

Much like the other Eternal formats, Hulk Flash has been a huge issue for Classic lately too.  While there are dozens of articles on it all over the place, and ten times the message board traffic, I wanted to add this link:

http://www.puremtgo.com/articledisplay.asp?AID=314

Pete Jahn writes quite a bit for PureMTGO, which is the news site associated with MTGOTraders.com.  This particular article deals directly with the Online applications of Hulk Flash, and besides detailing and discussing the accepted current Classic optimal build (Ravager/Disciple win) as well as some sideboarding, he also suggests a different list that might bear some thought as well.  A good read.

--->DJ

Leyline was big several months back, and pretty much buried Dragon and took the wind out of the original Hulk decks.  It splashed damage on a few other decks to a lesser extent...Ichorid, Tog, and some Salvagers, but none as bad as Dragon.  Once Storm combo got bigger, the need for Leyline dropped off quite a bit, but even as recent as the last ES was still popping up in sideboards.

With the onset of Hulk Flash, I would imagine Leyline will be in every sideboard.  Literally.

--->DJ

Right on, then.  I can see that being the case.  I'll have to test it out. 

How are the Coliseums? 

Perhaps more importantly, what does your sideboard plan look like?  In particular, how do you plan on dealing with Leyline Of The Void?

--->DJ 

Wraith makes Ichorid much better as well.  I can see how the Rootwalla act as a sort of one-shot Nether Shadow here, but why not use the namesake?

--->DJ

Not in my hands, at least.  =P

--->DJ
--->Guy who can, at least, talk the talk...

Absolutely...good call.  In fact, until the recent hype surrounding Hulk Flash (which is looking like an absolute powerhouse in Classic as well), I wrote a two-part primer on the Classic "Long-esque" Tendrils deck that is up over on the Classic Quarter site. 

Until now, I would have argued that this is the strongest possible combo list in the format...=P

--->DJ

Another thing to point out about the Classic Quarter PREs is that, for a free tournament, there is always a pretty decent prize support.  In the past, there have been all manner of donated cards, and now with some sponsors online, the top four typically gets paid out in tix, with first taking in the area of eight.  There are also usually door-prizes for things like quickest win and first in swiss standings going into top 8.

--->DJ 

It might be worth noting that Vampiric Tutor is also completely legal as a 4-of in the format.  That's the one that always throws people coming in for the first time for a loop.   

--->DJ

No matter how many times I try to download this, I get the error screen.  Super frustrating.

No *official* WoTC-sanctioned ones.  There is a pretty decent Classic community that has risen up to hold Player-Run Events.  Check this link:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690783

It's updated with the wrong info at the moment (due to the changing over to the new message boards), but Danger runs a Classic tourney every other weekend.  The last one, on Aug. 19th, brought in 28 people, was free to enter, and was giving out Draft sets to the winners among other prizes.  The next event is on Saturday, September 2nd.

Actually, there are several people who have shown up playing Dragon at these things.  One of the guys who helps run the tournaments has a list that is that consistant as well.  One thing I will note about your list is that *tons* of people come packing graveyard hate, and with the recent addition of Swords To Plowshares, it would be suicide to run a Dragon list with no Duress/counters.

--->DJ

I appreciate the replies.  Thanks very much.

I guess my question would be in reference to the mana base.  It seems much easier to abuse Brainstorm with a proper five-color vintage-style mana base; City of Brass, Glimmervoid, possibly Tendo (or even Dig) to replace Gemstone Mine.  The problem I run into is that the majority of the accelerants have a CC of two, and I do see times when I drop a turn one Egg or Sphere off a Dig, and then get stuck looking for source number two.  Brainstorm will theoretically help in this area, but I feel like it may be putting all of my eggs in one fragile basket.  The other problem becomes a need for blue mana off the Egg/Sphere to set up, versus a need for red mana for the big accelerators.  With that in mind, does it make sense to modify the mana base from the Dig/Vein configuration, or is that acceleration still too important?   

The other major question that I've been debating is protection.  Since this deck tries to win as fast as possible, does it care about running Duress? (At least pre-board?)  I noticed that both of the Invitational builds eschew maindeck protection for raw speed, and rely on wish power instead to bring key spells to bear.  Somehow, although I feel this is stronger in the Classic environment, the cardboard player in me is cringing... 

--->DJ

That is true, on both counts.  As far as building it online, it's not such a big deal, though.  I'm a retired cardboard player, due to lack of a good place to play in my area and several other serious time investments, such as a wife.    THe ability to log on for a while here and there to catch a game is fantastic, and this is as close to an Eternal format as I can get.  (In some cases, better; like I said before, four Mind's Desire in one deck...)  So I don't mind dropping a few dollars to be able to run Dragon or Storm Combo.  Besides...there are player-run events popping up now quite frequently, and it's starting to get fairly competetive. 


Here's the build I was running for reference:

4 Archaeological Dig
4 Crystal Vein
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Seething Song
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Shadowblood Egg
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Spoils Of The Vault
3 Mind's Desire
2 Tendrils Of Agony
4 Duress

SIDEBOARD
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Infernal Contract
4 Shattering Spree
1 Dematerialize
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Recoup
1 Sway Of The Stars
1 Cranial Extraction

I realize there are some glaring holes in the design...being able to only play Desire after tutoring and saccing LED in response is just one of them.  So I'm interested in what you guys would do differently...Smmenen's quote about Brainstorm got me thinking, and I still can't see a good way to include Brainstorm (or a stronger blue component in general) in a deck that is so black and red-heavy without some of the tools that aren't available yet Online.

--->DJ 

While I would certainly love to see a response from Smmenen on this, I am absolutely throwing this question out to the vintage community as a whole.  You guys all know your stuff. 

In his SCG article, "Breaking The Invitational", Smmenen, as usual, wrote a fantastic account of developing the 8.5 Tails/Storm Combo list he designed for the Classic Vanguard portion of the 2006 Invitational.  In rereading the article, I took particular note of this quote:


With Coldsnap now Online, Brainstorm is finally a possibility.  Which leads me to my question...

Is there a broken Storm combo list that is Online Classic legal?  Not necessarily Vanguard-legal, but plain Classic?  I have been testing a fairly strong list that is pretty similar to the list Smmenen proposed, using the additional synergy of Infernal Tutor/LED to give the deck a fantastic level of redundancy, as well as abusing the ability to run Mind's Desire unrestricted.  But it's not nearly solid enough to stand up to proper control strategies in my testing.  In addition, there have been attempts by the Online community to take various Easter Tendrils and Sensei Sensei/Brain Freeze lists to competetive tournaments, but the former seems to fizzle fairly easily due to the fragility of the combo, and the latter relies on a multi-card specific combo, leading to Extraction problems compounded by a general lack of speed and enough protection. 

For those of you who have tuned Vintage combo to bleeding-edge...what are your thoughts?

--->DJ