In regards to Ichorid:

Is your Orb of Dreams in the sideboard for the Ichorid matchup or is it just a general sideboard card. I'm fairly new to Vintage, and I was trying to somewhat develop a Stax deck, and I was thinking of Orb of Dreams in the main because my area has a lot of Ichorid. I was wondering if you had boarded in Orb against Ichorid, and if you have, have you found it to be effective or just a big disappointment?

.
Lotus is in every deck, but it does not force one into playing a certain archetype or against a certain archetype like Will does. If you do not play a deck that abuses Will, then you must have a way to stop a deck from abusing Will, or else out race them with your own Will engine. No deck abuses Lotus, and the only possible argument one could make for the abuse of Lotus would be in a deck that uses Yawgmoth's Will and goes Lotus, Will, and recast lotus to play various draw, tutor, and/or ritual spells.

Lotus gives all decks an advantage, thus there is no relative advantage, which is what the Restricted list is intended to deter. As has been stated here and in many other places, if you do not play Will, you must account for it with some MD slots that are significantly less powerful in other matchups, or else risk losing to a large portion of the metagame. Forcing deck innovation to account for yawgmoth's will or else never be given a second glance is not healthy for the format. A good player can play around counterspells, a good player cannot play around a graveyard with ancestral, rituals, tutors, and other draw spells when yawgmoth's will is cast

I have chosen to test the deck without wasteland and strip mine just to see how it works, mainly. Plus, I think it somewhat combos better with root maze, especially against fetchlands, as it forces them to use basics, which they prefer not to do. Since I am not playing Root Maze, at least in the maindeck, I decided to test forgoing the mana denial plan altogether. Now, not to say that forgoing the mana denial plan altogether is the best option to do, I'm just testing it out to see what it does.

I figured that against the aggro matchup, I can bring in the Darkblasts from the side for at least 3 of the REB's. However, I do not think I have enough cards in the sideboard for against aggro. Does anyone have any suggestions for possible sideboard cards against aggro? Would Grim Lavamancer possibly be a good route to go because of his amazingness late game, or is some other alternative more optimal? And, if more cards are added to the sideboard for against aggro, what cards should be taken out? I was thinking Krosan Grip since Oath is not very prominent atm and the other artifact kill, both out of the board and in the maindeck, should be enough.

I completely understand your argument for Root Maze, which is why I still want it available out of the board. I will see how well Chalice works with my intended strategy, and if it doesn't, then I will probably substitute out the Chalices for the Root Mazes.

I think that pillar is pretty good against control as well, since any damage you can sneak in against control is an added bonus, even if it causes some damage to us as well. Yes, against Workshop based decks it essentially sucks, but I can at least hold it and pretend that it is an arti-kill card or I could discard it to Wild Mongrel to pump him. I realize that is a terrible argument for it, but at least since combo is pretty prevalent right now it is a great card against combo and at the worst it sneaks in some extra damage against control. Obviously, metagame would determine the spot for this card, whether it be in the maindeck or in the sideboard.

Yeah, I see your point on the tutors that I had in there, so I took them out in place of the 1 consultation. What is your reasoning behind having just 1 tutor as oppose to upping the count of REB, lavamancer, or shaman, or null rod, or any of those cards? Basically, has the consultation come in handy/saved your butt enough times to warrant its inclusion?

I like the therapy because of the potential hand destruction in one turn, which I figure can almost win me the game in one turn. That's my reasoning for therapy, and if it gets countered, then a counter was used on a hand disruption card instead of on one of my key beaters.

I like having the moxen in there because of the greater potential to go turn 1 confidant or pillar or even null rod + chalice for 0. That's my reason for including all the on-color moxen despite the lack of synergy with chalice for 0 and null rod.

I changed my list above to reflect the changes I noted plus adding a bayou.

If Root Maze is the card causing this deck to have a less stable mana base, then why not just cut it in favor of Chalice? It seems easier to play around a Root Maze when playing combo than it does to play around a Chalice set at 0 and/or 1.

I have also been toying around with RGB beatz, although I have several different cards than you in my list. Here's my list:

Mana:
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Taiga
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

Artifacts/Enchantments:
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Null Rod
4 Pillar

Sorceries/Instants:
4 REB
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Naturalize
1 Demonic Consultation

Creatures/creaturelike:
4 Hidden Gibbons
3 Genju of the Spires
4 Dark Confidant
4 Wild Mongrel
3 Gorilla Shaman
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Sideboard:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Darkblast
2 Choke
2 Null Rod
2 Artifact Mutation
4 Root Maze


Now, I like Chalice over Root Maze because it slows combo's development, while not slowing mine. My version is very susceptible to Chalice set at 1, and I was wondering how I could correct that. I was thinking cutting 1-2 Genjus, and adding a good 2cc beater, such as possibly 1 more Mongrel and 1 Tin Street. I like Cabal Therapy better than Duress because of the multiple hit possibility, and if Shaman is not dropped 1st turn, he is not very useful besides as a blocker, and Cabal Therapy is not a necessity against a deck where I would need to use Shaman to block.

I like Darkblast in the sideboard instead of Mogg Fanatic or Bolt because it kills Welder, Confidant, Orchard tokens (not the main reason it is in my sideboard), and could possibly kill mages, true believers, and other 2/2s if used well. And if Confidant is out, then the dredge isn't as much of card disadvantage as it would be otherwise.

To Keys questions, because I was considering some of them as well:

1) Barring some miraculous accel, Negator is too slow to warrant the risk against any deck, imo. Turn 2 is still pretty good for dropping negator, but wouldn't you rather play a confidant on turn 2, or even confi on turn 1, and then root maze, null rod on turn 2? It just seems, to me at least, that there are much better plays that the deck could make without Negator than it could with Negator.

2) I do not know about Consultation. I would say another Duress would probably be better, but that is more of just random guessing than developed thought.

3) I was also considering Wretch, but when I came down to it, I decided that Crypt would be better than Wretch because of the ability of mass wiping of the yard as well as Wretch's BB cost. I think having any card that is double color in its cost would be bad for a manabase that is become less stable with the addition of black for Confidant and disruption.

4) There probably is no optimal mana base, especially with black being in there, because the different choices of cards require different mana options on turn 1. There is probably a fairly optimal mana base, but I don't think there will be a completely optimal mana base for RGB beatz because of the variety of card choices. I also noticed that you do not have any moxes in your list, could you explain why? I could only venture to guess that it is because of Root Maze and Null Rod. I am asking because Mox Jet has helped me cast Confidant on turn 1 several times when I needed to fetch a Taiga because the rest of my hand was red or green.


I'm not saying that my version is better than other ones that have been posted on here, just trying to help further the development of RGBeatz by putting something different out there. Critiques of card choices is welcome, as always.


EDIT: changes 12/2
-1 Taiga
+1 Bayou
-1 Genju of the Spires
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Demonic Tutor
+1 Wild Mongrel
+1 Tin Street Hooligan
+1 Demonic Consultation

Sideboard (previously only 14 cards):
-1 Krosan Grip
+2 Artifact Mutation

I'm sure I'm not the first to suggest it, but you could use Rushing River instead of Echoing Truth if need be. I can't really think of anything else except for Chain of Vapor, but Chalice for 1 is very popular if someone doesn't know what you're playing as it shuts down so many options, like the Ancestral. So, I think Rushing River would be a good switch out for the Echoing Truth if Chalice for 2 starts to become a problem.

I can't think of any other blue bouncers that don't cost 1 or 2.

I actually agree with JDizzle on this one. I think that 10 proxies is adequate. I did not read his whole argument, and even though I own no cards that are worth more than $10, I think that having more than 10 proxies would be pretty dumb IMO. I don't think that people should be able to play any deck that they want without having to pay at least SOME money for the more expensive cards.

Now, I do not even have close to enough money to buy a set of shops, bazaars, or any other "semi-expensive" things that cost around $600 for a set of cards that used to be around $120 not even 2 years ago! I think that if you can proxy more than 10 cards, then you lose respect for the game and how cool the cards actually are that cost that much to obtain. I'm pretty sure that everyone here has respect for the game, and I don't think that there should be more than 10 proxies in a tournament.

Plus, proxies make the game slower like someone has previously argued before me (sorry that I forgot your name) when people have to keep on asking their opponent "how is that card worded" or "what does that do again" or "Is this a legal proxy" (don't know how often that comes up, but I assume it would come up more often it many proxies were legal).

Being able to have roughly 15% of my deck as proxies is something I consider to be a privelage. I can proxy cards that I don't have the money to afford and that I don't want to spend the time trying to acquire (not completely what I think, but I thought that I would just bring it up anyways).

Let's face it folks, Vintage is about money, and for the format to stay that way, which I want it to oddly enough, there needs to be no more than 10 proxy tournaments.

However, I do agree with what Machinus said about being able to use however many proxies you want, but only being able to do the expensive cards. Actually, as I type that, I disagree with it more and more, so I stick to my point: Vintage is a game of money. It is not Extended, Type 2 or any other format where you only have to spend $200 for a competitive deck. You have to spend $thousands for a competitive deck, and I think it should stay that way.

If Mike Long gets in, then yes I care. If not, then no, I don't.

If you cheat to WIN a match, then you shouldn't get into any Hall of Fame, period.

MOTL is overpriced if you buy from the idiotic dealers. Other than that, people actually sell their cards at what prices end at on ebay. Ebay is much harder to get a good price AND not get ripped becuase you will usually get a good price on low feedback people that could rip you.

Try MOTL, and if that doesn't work for you, then see if you can find a dealer that will sell it for relatively cheap.

WTF is your guys problem? Why would you pass off a fake to *MORE* people so that they can be pissed off at you and think that you are some asshole that just wants to make a profit off magic, some damn cardboard. Everyone here (well, practically) condemns the pros for cheating and doing crap similar to this at various high profile events, and then those same people come right back around and sell a fake piece of power to someone else. Essentially cheating them of their money, and selling your integrity for a couple hundred bucks.

I stand by what I said earlier that you should burn the card if you are not able to get compensation for it. If you are, make the dealer rip up the card in front of you so that you know that no one is ever going to get ripped off by some either
a) asshole
of
b) unknowing dealer (highly doubtful)

Wow, this is really sad that I even have to argue this point.

EDIT: At least people on MOTL aren't complete idiots...

I would do such once you made sure that it was a fake:

1) Take it to the guy that you bought the card from and point out to him, in a polite way, why the card is fake, whether it doesn't past the bend test, doesn't have the ring printing pattern or has some other abnormality in it that makes it distinguishable as a fake. If you do this, then you are helping out the dealer so that they don't buy any more fakes and sell them to others thus making that otherwise good dealer (I presume) basically screwed. Go to the dealer, not the lackey

2) After you have done number 1 very politely, but not overly politely or else you look very stupid, ask if it is possible for you to get a refund or some sort of exchange on any count. If need be, point out the lackey if he is at the same place as the dealer or give the dealer the lackey's name. Try to get a close to full refund, but if that is not possible, then get as much as you can either in cards or cash, whichever you can get/prefer.

3) Burn the card. Yes, I said burn it. It can be used as a nice fire starter and you will never have to pass it on to another unsuspecting victim.


For all of the people that said "sell it and be an a$$" or some variation thereof, I hope something like this happens to you so you can know the feeling of being ripped off for some fake piece of cardboard.

Whatever you do, don't sell it on ebay because then the buyer will most likely market it as a real card and then the cycle will start all over again.

I hope you're joking with that comment because R/G can screw combo if they're running either Null Rod or the Root Maze/Pillar combo. Last I checked, Pillar also ripped combo a new one as all of their spells cost 3 or less except for about a handfull if that. Almost every deck in the format loses to combo decks that go off on turn 1 or 2

WSA is inconsistent, and while running blue card draw it lacks the explosiveness that it once had. Welder, oh no, I Bolt it and it dies or I Lavamancer it on turn 2-3 and it dies. Jugg, oh no, I bolt it or Incinerate it and it does or I artifact mutation it and I'm beating your face each turn.

If R/G ran card draw, they would be
a) stupid, as the deck is beatz, not let's draw a lot of cards and win a counter war
b) lose their slots devoted to useful hate like artifact mutation, root maze, pillar, null rod
c) what good draw is there in R/G, I ask you this Sylvan Library is subpar as has been discussed in the R/G forums. The only useful card I can think of is SOFAI, and that costs too much mana to use, plus there is a lot of artifact hate in Vintage last I checked. Skullclamp is inferior as most of the creatures run have 2-3 toughness, and why would I want to clamp my River Boa or my Lavamancer when I could just be beating instead of drawing more threats and then dying because I didn't get in that extra 3-4 points of damage that I could have if I left those creatures on the board.

R/G does not need perfect pairings to win a tournament. It's underrepresented because people do not think it has the power to contend, even though it does. It basically beats all forms of control, it can beat combo barring the brokenness that any deck bows down to, and it can hang with other aggro decks because of it's speed and utility cards. It's main problematic match is Oath because of the card Oath itself and the deck being aggro that does not pack control in the form of counters.

R/G beatz is not perfect, no deck is perfect. If R/G was represented as much as fish, then R/G would most likely have as many T8 spots as fish just because of sheer numbers, as would any other deck. Fish is doing so well because it is being played so much more than most other decks.

However, RG does need to start playing REBs or Pyroblasts main in my opinion becuase it can shore up the combo, wsa, and gifts match, not to mention many others. However, that would take away from the whole point of the deck, which is beating down. You would now have to sit with 1 red mana open against these decks because they can go off at any time and play their blue spells and/or permanents at any time in the game making this deck slower than it needs to be.

REBs need to be run in the board, not the main because it deters from the purpose of the deck. First turn Root Maze, 2nd-3rd turn pillar will wreck most all combo decks, along with Chalice for 0, which RG does need to run main to make combo a "better" match.

If I lived on the east coast I would take RG to an SCG tournament, but I don't live there and my area doesn't have Vintage tournaments, so I have to travel about 4 hours to play in them.

If you really think RG sucks, then take a good build to a major tournament and see how you do with it after testing.

Monkey Cage is awesome!! I actually won a game with that card once, my opponent was really mad needless to say.

The report was very funny to read, and I'm sure everyone is happy that Vintage did not get invaded by the pros and their cheating ways. Although, this did get a little off topic...

What about another aggro deck like R/G beatz, which has a good matchup against fish last I checked and pretty good matchups against everything else (Oath is difficult)...

It can hose artifacts (Root Maze, Gorilla Shaman, Artifact Mutation/Naturalize, usually Null Rod), which are key in almost every deck, but chalice for 1 is a problem as a vast majority of the cards are 1cc. It seems like a R/G deck is poised for a coming out on a larger scale than has already occured...?

If I run Root Maze and Pillar, should I also run Null Rod? And, what is the optimal number of creatures for this deck (I was guessing around 17-20)?

I'm pretty sure it would be too slow for this deck, as this deck needs to usually win fast or else they will lose in a long drawn out game. Plus, the deck is more aggro and not aggro-ctonrolesque like fish is.

I'm wondering if anyone here has played at the Eudemonia tournaments in Berkeley, and if they have, then I'm wondering what the meta mostly is (lots of Staxx, Oath, combo, other?).

I took out the Trolls and 1 R&R (too hard to get GG) in favor of Skyshroud Elites , and I took out the 2 Oxdizes in favor of 1 more Rancor and 2 Mongrels. Also took out 3 Null Rods in favor of 3 Pillars. Also took out 3 lands (1 Volcanic 2 Factories) in favor of 3 ESGs.

I run R&R, oxidize, and Artifact Mutation in my R/G deck. It's not really beats, it's something else. Can't really say what, but it's something else.

I assume that Root Maze is good against control, but don't we usually win that matchup fairly easily anyways? Is it really that much of a house against combo like it seems it would be?

Rancor seems like it would be good, but is it really superior to Jitte in most matchups? The mana curve for R/G beats seems to be pretty low, so I don't see why Jitte would not be run as it can be better than Rancor in some situations. Then again, Rancor only requires one mana for usually only being used once. I'll just post my decklist now:

Creatures:
4 Gorilla Shaman
3 Kird Ape
3 Troll Ascetic
3 River Boa

Spells:
3 Fire/Ice
3 Rancor (was SOFAI)

Hosers:
2 REB
3 Artifact Mutation
3 R&R
2 Oxidize
1 Naturalize (should I replace the oxidizes with Naturalizes?)
3 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void

Mana:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island (stupid to have this?)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Factories

Board (I expect to see a lot of blue in the tourny):
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pillar
3 Pyroblast
2 REB
1 Null Rod
3 ?


Now, my question is this: Should I take out the artifact hate except for the mutations, and if so, then what should I put in? I was thinking possibly Root Maze (don't have any), Skyshroud Elites, 1 more Rancor, 1 more Kird Ape, and some burn.

What do you guys think?

I tried to go on and was like WTF? MOTL down? Huh!?!?!?

Thanks for letting us know Inca911.

Nice report, it was a joy to read.

I was interested in the choice of Hearth Kami, and what drove you to make the choice to have that as one of your creatures.

Also, do you find the burn to be more useful than more artifact hate would be in its place?

Again, cool report.

What is the reason for running burn in this deck? Lightning Bolt is an inferior 1 drop to almost all the other ones in the deck, so why not run fire/ice instead as you can hit a welder or two or you can hit the life points. The only reason I can see for not running fire/ice instead of lighthing bolt is if your meta has a lot of decks that use and abuse Juggernaut, which doesn't seem to be happening anywhere.

What about Rack and Ruin or Oxidize or Chalice of the Void? COTV can add a lot to this deck especially when set to 0 against almost any deck in the format. Plus, if you can get it out against Oath (unlikely) set at 2, then you basically win the game, or else they have to Wish for Chain of Vapor or Rushing River if the build runs Wishes.

Has anyone thought about using the Troll in R/G beats? It seems to be pretty good because it can block a Jugg and still live if you regen, which is what seems to be the fear of this deck.

I agree that Root Maze is good on paper, but I haven't tested it yet in my build. It seems that you guys really like it against control, which seems to be the easy matches for this deck.

What do you guys think of Chalice and the other cards I mentioned (mainly Chalice)?

That was a very helpful article as I will be going to my first Vintage tournament in a few weeks and I now know more about the format and how to play it. Thanks.

Name: Kelsey Weeks (guy)
Age: 17
Location: Visalia, California
Favorite Color: GREEN!
Occupation: The crapshoot that is high school

I started playing Magic around when Masques came out, boy was that a bad set. I then proceeded to buy Masques, Prophecy, and Nemesis packs instead of Urza packs when they were still cheap. Man that was stupid.

My area doesn't have any Vintage tournaments except for like 3 times a year and that's like an FNM scene, no power or anything snazzy involved which sucks. So I'm forced to travel to areas like L.A. and Berkeley to play my Vintage. Going to my first Vintage tournament on June 19th at Eudemonia.

I am forced to play the blah that is Standard at my local store, with some Extended mixed in.

I have 1 Revised Taiga and 1 Revised Bayou. Yeah... I'm poor.