It might now be irrelevant with the release of Steve's new list (it also might have been mentioned in one of his newer articles as I don't have SCG Premium) - another FS that has sort of gone under the radar thansk to the 3 massive introductions I believe has been Dryad Arbor.  In versions still running Mishra's Factory, I think this card might be better.  The advantage is that it can produce green mana the turn after to help cast flashback Ancient Grudge and Emerald Charm.  Although it comes into play as a creature and can be killed relatively easily, I think i'm right in saying you can flashback Cabal Therapy without passing priority so that isn't a huge disadvantage in itself.

I'll skip over the Lotus Petal vs Black Lotus debate as I think we already know the outcome of that...

What I am more interested in is your reasoning for taking Null Rod out of the board.  Since Steve started playing Root Maze, it does feel that a lot of the cards overlap in their duties.  At this stage, i'm not to sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing.  After sideboard, you normally bring in 8 cards (4 Null Rod, 4 Pithing Needle/4 Root Maze) against your main hate card in Tormod's Crypt, and any sort of fast combo deck.  What my question is, are the full suite of Rod/Needle/Maze necessary in the sideboard now?  Perhaps you could expand a bit more on your decision Neonico.

While we are still on sideboard, just a short note about Leyline of the Void.  Does anyone know why this isn't being played?  It's obviously stellar in the mirror, especially when you can nab opposing Chains with Therapies.  Is this card not as useful against Gifts/Slaver (our 'bad' matchups) as other sideboard choices? 

Now, I read the article, which means I read quotes such as "Brainstorm is the second best unrestricted card in the deck, after Bazaar."  I also read your argument about Brainstorm, which is certainly fair and does justify its inclusion.  What I am baffled about is why you are cutting Careful Study and leaving in Brainstorm.  When are dredge cards on top of your library better than dredge cards in the grave?  OK, it is possibly useful if you are staring down an active Crypt, but apart from that the answer is never.  Brainstorm has a few advantages, like "drawing" an extra card, being instant speed and maybe hiding cards from Duress (not sure if it affects anything really), but when you need to stick the dredge stuff that is clogging up your hand in the grave, you definately want that blue one-drop in your hand to be Careful Study.  Brainstorm only does its job AFTER you have your dredge engine going - it in no way helps the initial process except digging one card deeper for a Bazaar or Imp.  Brainstorm is better when you have Bazaar, Careful Study is better without - this seems like one of those "all or nothing" situations.  You say the deck doesn't isn't overly reliant on Bazaar, when it obviously is.

If possible, could I get your comments on a direct Careful Study vs Brainstorm argument?

Obviously a version without Bazaar isn't going to do much - its the best draw engine in the game, and Ichorid uses its drawback to its advantage just as much if not more than any other deck.  Simply put, Bazaar is the single card that makes this deck stand a chance.  As far as "fully powered", I guess which power to include hasn't been decided upon yet.  Ancestral Recall and Time Walk have been less than stellar (although Recall is still included if you are running blue I suppose), and as Moxlotus said off-colour Moxen are pretty much dead without Tolarian Winds and has advised you can run Breakthrough instead.  So even in a proxy environment (5 or 10), 4 Bazaar should be your first proxies, and not something else.  The rest of the proxies are filled up dependant on which direction you are taken the deck - Tolarian Winds vs Breakthrough.

I don't think the deck can play its game properly without blue.  When you lose blue, you become too dependant on Bazaar and Wasteland/Pithing Needle can simply ruin your day.  Having back such as Careful Study, Tolarian Winds/Breakthrough, Deep Analysis, and well even Chain of Vapor in the board is too good to pass up.  Although green isn't necessary, I have already above explained the importance of Bazaar - and you get this neat little card Crop Rotation which basically is Bazaar #5.  I also like the single Life from the Loam, because it can act as another dredge card as well as getting Bazaar back in a pinch.  And although I have never done it, I guess theres always a possibility to cast Golgari Grave-Troll - which can be a good play if there is a Tormod's Crypt on the table.

I also want to touch on 2 points as well, the first being restricted cards.  After reading Zheng's article about the deck, he didn't find it necessary to run restricted cards in his build.  However, I believe there should be at least 2 cards that should be included - Crop Rotation and Vampiric Tutor, both solely for the purpose to get Bazaar.  Crop Rotation has the advantage of turning a first turn green mana source into an equivalent first turn Bazaar (unless it gets countered, which hurts).  Vampiric Tutor has the ability to EOT cast it, setting up a second turn Bazaar which we all know can't be countered.  This leads onto the other 2 black tutors, being Imperial Seal and Demonic Tutor.  Both cards definately have their advantages to search out a Bazaar, but is the Sorcery speed too much of a drawback?  I find myself never to have 2 mana during a main phase where I haven't already dropped a land, so Demonic Tutor loses its main advantage of being able to put the card in your hand.  Imperial Seal has the right casting cost, being a single black, but again you have to wait for a turn before you get to play Bazaar.  The same is also true with Vampiric Tutor, but the suprise element of an instant justifies its inclusion.  I guess what i'm saying is, should Imperial Seal be included as a slightly worse Vampiric Tutor, or is there better stuff to run.  And should Demonic Tutor be included (mainly in a Tolarian Winds build with 5 moxen) just because of its reputation?  These are the main cards I want to illustrate, but if anyone has arguments for or against cards such as Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Entomb, Mystical Tutor, feel free to speak up.

The second topic I quickly want to discuss is disruption.  In an earlier post (can't remember who it was, sorry), someone illustrated the importance to balance the brokeness of speed and the disruption factor.  At present, we currently have 4 Cabal Therapy cemented in the maindeck.  Zheng's list included cards such as Mesmeric Fiend (pseudo-Duress, Ichorid food) and Chalice of the Void (mana denial, protection vs Crypt).  Chiz opted solely for the 4 Therapy in the main.  In my testing, I found myself facing early Tinker -> Colossus (turn 1/2 mainly, before Cabal Therapy really comes online unless you hard cast it) quite regularly.  Looking at more disruption, I guess the obvious card is Duress.  Is the fact that Duress does nothing from the yard a reason not to include possible the best offensive disruption in the format? Is Mesmeric Fiend just a more versatile option to Duress, being a black creature, even though it can't be cast first turn without a Mox?  Looking at it more closely, the extra spots Moxen take up for the Fiend to be better are more spots you could be including disruption or draw - therefore making Duress a better choice.  What about  a card called Unmask?  With a heavy commitment to black and a free mana casting cost, could Unmask finally have a home?  If necessary it can take a creature such as Welder, which after you side in Chalice/Pithing Needle might be crucial since you dump your library in your grave making juicy welding targets.  Is the ability to play Unmask and Bazaar without any additional acceleration make it worthy of inclusion?  Which wins out of Duress and Unmask?  Once again, feel free to comment on other disruption such as maindeck Pithing Needle, Null Rod (although I find it slow), or even Wasteland/Strip Mine which I have been testing lately.

I'm pretty sure the core creatures will look something like this:
4x Ichorid
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3-4x Ashen Ghoul
3-4x Black Creature (Tog, Mesmeric Find, Pit Imp)

Uncertain which way to lean on the restricted cards at the moment.  The really only worthy one has been Crop Rotation, although first turn Ancestral is nothing to sneeze at.  Unfortunately, they only end up pulling their weight if they are in your starting hand, and something like Time Walk I found myself Bazaaring away my hand before I even got to play it.  Would Balance be an appropriate inclusion? (I actually run 4x City of Brass/4x Gemstone Mine because of Ray of Revelation in the side).

I'm not really sure how Breakthrough is better than Tolarian Winds.  The great thing about TW is you get to pitch the dredge cards in your hand first, and then dredge them up again.  Breakthrough however does seem pretty sweet, acting like a superior Brainstorm for this kind of deck.  I myself play Careful Study, but might consider Breakthrough in its place.  Tolarian Winds however, does its job double time by acting as a discard outlet and then letting you dredge at the same time.  In any case, I agree with Moxlotus that Deep Analysis is total wang.  Why not just play Life from the Loam, and from basically the same casting cost you get Bazaar of Baghdad back as a permanent source?

What do you guys think of running Wastes/Strips?  Theoretically, they should be a house since you don't need to waste time dropping mana sources and can therefore spend your time disrupting your opponent's manabase.  In practice however, I have found them to be extremely sub par.  Anyone else tried them out?

BTW, Moxlotus, did you want to post/PM me the list you were testing?

You could cut a Brainstorm, but I am a huge supporter of the full playset in the deck.  It is never a bad topdeck, and gets you cards you want now in some cases.  God its a hard decision on what to cut, the creature base probably shouldn't be altered except for adding the Mage, and the other spells need to be 4-ofs as well since you want to see them first turn (Vial/Chalice).  The card that I probably felt didn't pull its weight enough was Ninja, but that was only because I saw heaps of creatures all day.  Against any "normal" deck it would be ownage card advantage, so it should stay as 3.  Now that I look at my list, I guess it would almost have to be the Brainsorm that you would cut, since everything else is almost essential (unless you want to cut the whole Tutor/Tinker/Colossus package).  I guess my answer is it's your choice

I'll answer this question based on how I am interpreting it, and that is if there are still enough artifact sources to make Tinker worth it.  With the loss of only 2 Moxen and the Lotus, you still have 4 Chalice and 4 Vial, and even your Factories can turn into artifacts to sac.  I guess making it a budget deck would mean that Tinker is the only target for your Mystical Tutor, which could cause some issues.  If you are in a budget metagame, it will lose some potency since you will most likely cut Chalice, but in that type of meta Colossus should be even more powerful.  Personally I did tutor up a Time Walk once, when one more attack phase would wipe my opponent out completely.  I tried to get too cute one game I should have won when I Tinkered into a Colossus, which met Gilded Drake and I promptly lost a game I shouldn't have.  Tutoring a Recall is never a bad move either, so you have 3 potential game-breaking targets for the Tutor and you just have to decide which one is best in the situation.

Black Lotus in this deck offers the same first turn insanity it does in other decks.  I think I only drew it once or twice, but the fact that you can play something like a first turn Mongrel and Jitte, then equip it next turn almost means that's good game unless they have creature removal.  It can also randomly bring about first turn Tinker if you are playing it.  About the Welder issue, if you have an active Jitte in play the Welder isn't even a problem, and if you play a Jitte into his Welder then its kind of stupid unless you want your Lotus back or something .  The fact is you have one card in your deck that makes Welder mess with your artifacts, so chances are you won't even get in the situation.  Also, if you have a Chalice in play already it should have slowed them down enough to get yourself some board position, or you have played it too late and it was useless anyway so they can go ahead and weld it out for your Lotus.  On the whole, the advantages of Black Lotus FAR outweigh the disadvantages of a "potential" situation with a Welder in play.

I would love more than anything to squeeze a 4th Mage in there, but my deck was packed to the max.  I guess the real reason I decided to stick with 3 was there is no real "meta" where I'm playing, so Tutor/Tinker/Colossus could handle a lot more of the random.decks, which I expected to see a lot more of than the combo decks that Mage typically hoses.

Brainstorm was nothing but good to me all day, and a much more proactivate approach than Standstill.  Countless times I could respond to a major threat of my opponent with Brainstorm to search for that Force (even if I didn't find it, my opponent would now know I had the ability to Brainstorm and might hold back until he has a counter backup himself), or just digging 3 cards and try to find my gamebreaking threat in Jitte or Tinker.  It even allowed me to keep not-so-great hands with maybe one blue source and a colourless Waste/Factory, and be able to try and find that next mana source.  The shuffle effects didn't play a major part, and I can't remember how much they helped, but normally if I get a resolved Jitte or Tinker from the Brainstorm its almost game so it didn't matter what I was topdecking.

Well the manabase might look awful, and it probably is, but I can't stress enough how much Vial helps.  If I have a Vial out I can normally go ahead and search for that one island right off the bat so its a bit safer.  The only non-blue cards are the creatures, so I found myself mulliganing a lot towards a first turn Vial hand.  I would have only hardcast a creature maybe 1/4 times (ok, maybe a bit more with Rootwalla/Mongrel synergy with Ninja). Incidently I didn't see B2B or Blood Moon all day, and opponents saved their Wastes/Strips for my Factories or my Wastes themselves.

Hope this answers your questions!

I think Zealot is a pretty poor choice, even if it does have a neat special ability.  It is far too slow just to destroy artifacts/enchantments (ok, it costs the same as Naturalize IF you get to vial it out).  Gaea's Skyfolk has evasion over it, and doesn't die to one damage hits, and Zealot's major drawback of running it in the Skyfolk slot is that it isn't blue.  This really isn't a disruption/hate deck, its a fast tempo beatdown deck.

Gilded Drake is sideboard at best, and only if you see a stack of Oath or Tinker/Colossus

Well I think Jacob answered everything above, and I 100% agree with him.

I actually played against a WTF mirror today, but he ran Skyfolk and Standstill.  The decisive factor was ironically enough Tinker -> Colossus, which he wasn't running.  It definately gave me a better opinion on Skyfolk though, he got down an early Jitte and Skyfolk and almost took me to lethal. 

I agree that the Fish matches are very tight, but you basically just win if you can get a Jitte out and they aren't running it in their deck.  Being able to ping those annoying Bouncers and Lavamancers is just too strong, as well as doing damage every round.  I don't know if the flying evasion will be decisive in these kind of matches, I guess it depends on which variant you are playing against.

Rootwater Thief, although a sweet card, I just found too slow and clunky.  I would rather just pump Rootwalla's and attack with Factory's for damage.  I would suggest at least to run Tinker/Tutor/Collosus in the board, its only 3 slots, and its useful against almost any deck barring Welder.  As Jacob said, there are plenty of artifact sources, including Factory which is just fun to Tinker out

The metagame over here has no combo, in a field of 27 there was two Oath and a Doomsday.  Meddling Mage I didn't find useful at all in the mirrors (although I didn't play a U/R mirror, only white and green variants), so naming something unless late into the game can be difficult.

I entered into a Mox Ruby tournament today that only had 27 participants, but still managed to Top 8 (7th)

Creatures (14)
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Wild Mongrel
3x Meddling Mage
3x Ninja of the Deep Hours
1x Darksteel Colossus

Spells (23)
4x Aether Vial
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Tinker
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk

Mana (23)
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
3x Tropical Island
3x Polluted Delta
2x Tundra
2x Flooded Strand
1x Island
1x Strip Mine
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus

Sideboard (15)
3x Phyrexian Furnace
3x Oxidize
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Ray of Revelation
2x Kira, Great-Glass Spinner
1x Tundra
1x Umezawa’s Jitte

A couple of choices I will explain.  I added Meddling Mage to stop annoying stuff, and it really was only decisive in one match today, which was Oath.  In the end, I can't find a better creature to run in the spot so I guess I will leave it there.

Brainstorm > Standstill.  The way this deck is run, Brainstorm is just SOOO much better than Standstill.  Being able to respond to your opponents moves at instant speed, even if your only searching for 4 FoW, will make them think twice next time they cast their match winning card.

Tinker/Tutor/Colossus.  Well this was a last minute decision to run, and I am very impressed.  There was never a time I couldn't Tinker in the Colossus, and truth be told, this guy saved me from so many matches I should never have won, and also just to win Turn 4 with Fish is fun.

Sideboard was pretty much a metagame choice so I won't go into it in too much detail, they are all cards we have seen before.

P.S.  Where's Jacob been lately?

20 mana sources I think is way too light.  I think you will be wanting to replace the Moxen/Lotus with land/mana sources rather than other stuff in the deck.  Kira probably belongs in the board, so at least bring in some land for her.

Back onto the overall topic of the deck, i've been running Brainstorms over Standstills and I don't think I will ever go back.   There still HAS to be a better choice that Skyfolk out there somewhere .  Crucible is an interesting choice, especially if your running Tinker, I might have to try that in the board.

Pentavus is nice since it can also cause the infinite slaver lock, as well as deal with threats on the table and provide beats to boot.  I guess what I want to ask is, what creature set is actually optimal?  I noticed both you and Ugo run Platz/Trike, but is there a spot for Pentavus or even Sundering Titan along side/in place of them?

Although i'd love to play Gift's, I think Intuition pretty much is the better choice when running AK.  Sure you lose out on one card, but as you said, nobody wants to be Cruci-locked and that can be done with an active Welder and Intuition.

What do you think of Ugo's Vampiric Tutor?  Is there a space for it in the deck?

With the addition of Demonic Tutor, do you need another black source (Sea)?

That's all for now!

EDIT:  Also, is there space for FoF and/or Mystical Tutor?

Would Thirst For Knowledge hold up in this build?  Or is it too many intensive?  I don't think you would have any problem with pitching a dead artifact late game to it, but you will probably want to be using its mana to cast threats instead of more draw.  Just a suggestion.

Edit:  Kowal - what sideboard were you running for the event?

I briefly tried the white splash in my build (with MM maindeck), and apart from the mana issues it brings, I found with only the 4 FoW as a counter base I couldn't hold off their match winning threat before I got the Mage onto the table.  The advantage of the U/W build is it has more space for stuff like Daze/Misdirection to hold out long enough to play a Mage and stop the threat altogether.

It is tempting to add stuff like Tinker -> Colossus, and even Thirst For Knowledge, but in the end the deck is too tight as is and there are better cards to run.  In the end, its a tempo deck that doesn't need to run cards that win more.  I would gladly add more Brainstorms in place of these cards.  As Anusien said, Jitte is basically the win card in this deck, as well as a way to get out of trouble.

Pithing Needle really isn't required maindeck unless you see loads of decks with Welders and Bazaars.  I find this a major advantage of the Needle over other graveyard hate options, even though Furnace can help against Dragon and even Yawgmoth's Will to an extent.

I suggest not cutting Chalice's under any circumstance, unless you are on the draw and feel they wouldn't be as useful.

I'm still unsure of the whole 4th creature in the deck, whether it be Skyfolk, Hatchling or Bouncer.  I guess we will wait until next weekend when Jacob runs his new build at Rochester.

Worse Than Fish v3,
by Jacob Orlove
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Gaea's Skyfolk
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Brainstorm
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald

(from StarCityGames latest article - no sideboard included)

I think this is basically changing:
-4 Spiketail Hatchling
+4 Gaea's Skyfolk

-1 Island
+1 Tropical Island

-1 Library of Alexandria
-1 Black Vise
+2 Brainstorm

As there was no sideboard posted in the article, what did you end up choosing over Phyrexian Furnace/Ground Seal/Tormod's Crypt/Pithing Needle (when it becomes legal).  I want to run Ground Seal, but getting that green mana is more trouble than the colourless (or free) of the other 3.

Also, is 3 or 4 the correct number of Gaea's Skyfolk to be running?

Jacob,

What number of Brainstorms do you like best?  I have found them very useful at shuffling away useless cards late game and even after breaking Standstill and going to 10 hand size, having a look at 12 cards and deciding what to discard then is nice.  The synergy with fetchlands doesn't need to be explained.  So yeah, I currently 2x Brainstorm and 3x Jitte, but maybe swap in another Brainstorm for the Jitte.

Also thing brings me to my next question, about Gaea's Skyfolk.  Should this guy be run as a 4-of still, or cut to 3-of?  I haven't tested with him as much so I am interested in your opinion.

Cheers!

Someone said it before, so I will just reinforce it.  Pithing Needle does not belong maindeck and in no way comes close to Null Rod/Chalice of the Void.  All Needle does is a few little tricks with cards such as Welder and Bazaar, which although good, remains sideboard.  Null Rod/Chalice is necessary to stop the huge advantage powered decks gain by artifact mana.

The deck also lacks a consistant draw mechanism, such as Curiosity (which is almost now dead), Ninja of the Deep Hours is just awesome with Standstill/Vial, and you are even choosing the right colours for Shadowmage Infiltrator.

Like the guy before me said, have fun against artifacts!

I noticed that you run a Plains/Tundra in the board together with Ray of Revelation.  As a suggestion, could this deck cope with moving white into maindeck?  I know this would move the deck in more of a Bird Sh*t direction, but I think it opens up good cards that can deal with threats that prove a problem for fish.  Meddling Mage could be added in that Hatchling/Skyfolk/Bouncer slot, and running Vial doesn't mean the white mana casting cost isn't as bad as it seems (its also part-blue for pitchability sake).  You can then run the best white card ever printed in the sideboard - Swords to Plowshares - to help against Oath, Tinker -> Colossus, and even against Welders.

Obviously the drawback is more susecptability to non-basic hate and the like, but having an uncounterable Meddling Mage and an answer to those threats that Fish just can't deal with otherwise in the form of Swords seems an appealing prospect.   I don't know if you have looked into this much, but its just a thought!

I have also recently pieced together this deck, and like many others before me, found Spiketail Hatchling to be the card I want to cut the most.  As Jacob said before I feel this needs to be a blue creature of some sort, so I was wondering what ever happened to Cloud of Faeries?  Turn 2 is the most crucial turn for any build of fish, even if it isn't running Rod.  The ability to play a threat (albeit a weak 1/1 CoF ) then untap and play a Standstill or Jitte is huge.  Especially after you have played a first turn Vial, or if you have a Ninja in hand ready for the next turn attack.  It also has the side ability to cycle and draw a replacement card, even under a Standstill.

Also after reading through the previous posts, I noticed some talk about incorportating Brainstorm.  If possible Jacob, could you provide us with an updated decklist to see your changes?

Cheers!