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I think Hemgath forgot to say that we choose this week-end just because you're not available;)

But I understand, too hard for you to win some pieces of P9; you maybe prefer to improve your Hello Kitty account;)

I don't remember the exact conditions.
If I remember well, these cards are legal in tourney, if you can see the name, the cost and the text of the card.

I think a judge will answer better than me;)

We don't think so.
In fact, against flash and ichorid, a lot of people have a lot of similar slots in side. So, as flash and ichorid should be very reprentative, we hope, there will be a lot of hate aginst dredge decks.
We are confidant and think that we will see other decks for the unpowered top 8

Do you really think that you have to find a solution to a problem like that. I explain this situation:
- you have a problem with a card that kill you, but a card that only a couple of people play it in the world:)
- the cc is 4 and your opponent can't play it before turn 3, except  some lucky beginning that can compare to a beginning with turn 1: tral, walk, duress etc... turn 1 cranial, this is very rare.

So the good question is:
Do you have to modify your list or your sideboard for a card unplayed and with a cc of 4??

When someone sidein cranial extraction against combo, i sunrise like that

You have discard and  you are not able o win before that your opponent play a Cranial extraction??
If you fear Cranil extraction, you fear everything.


2 cards for 1 meddling mage, you will never win with hat.
Bounces or alternate kills seem better solution. You can also play something like Massacre.

A similar deck finished #6 at the french vintage championship and  #3 at the Switzerland Vintage championship.

http://www.solomoxen.com/?page=7&id=33&menu=1

Paul played tog at this moment because metagame was not the same but you can easilytake out some togs.

Some slots can change. For the moment, i play tinker instead of something, i don't remember.
There are some slots not really sure:
-wonder
-tinker
-lotus petal
-brainstorm
-lefe from the loam

I'ma also a  multiple lotus winner but me i test the deck and i'm sorry but i can read what some people are witting about my list.

Vroman is maybe a good player, maybe vegeta too :lol: :lol: but they are flaming some thing they didn't test. They also use this vocabulary:
idiotic
terrible
those lists made me laugh

sorry fot wanting defending my deck and my choice against people who attack me.

I love people who are talking about this deck without testing it, it's so crazy to see that.

I just want to congratulate some stupid people that prefer krosian raclamation to DColossus in this deck.  Have you ever think what is the situation if you play krosian at your upkeep and your opponent force or drain it??? Dcolossus have not this problem.


Hermitorid is strong because you can win without play spell, and that is very very strong. Versus uba stax, you can't lose the first one and after side, with drakblast+pithing needle+null rod, the mathcup is less easy but also good. Versus gift, this is also very easy, too much discard, and DColossus in play is alone versus 10 3/1 and 1/1.

Crucible+waste is maybe the only good weapon in stax against this deck.

This is always the same people who are flambing a list or a deck and who will congratulate this same deck, two month later because an american will do a top 8 with it.
Thank you for your wondeful analyse Vegeta, i think you are the new star of Magic;)

The number of counter on chalice depends of your versions. Fort mine the best one is at 3, because you can't play intuition, necromancy in upkeep and stop 3 kill cards (necromancy).

I think stax player have to think about the next other turns. Turn 1, chalice at 0 is the best trick because stax can lock you quicker than you can win (sometimes). MOre, stax can play chalice at 0 + an other card.

After the turn 1, chalice at 1 is pretty good. Stopping stifle, vampiric, chains of vapors is very good. But chalice at one is more interessant after to play 2 other chalices at 2 and at 3.

Stax player can't know what kill cards you have in hand, so he has to play a chalice at the number of mana you can have.

I think verus 5c, the chalice is better at 2 and versus u/b, the chalice should be better at 3, but more difficult to play, of course.

Two weeks ago, you could. But for the moment this coice is bad. Grim tutor is very strong. i think in a short time a lot of combo come back and fow is better in this case.

To MaxxMatt:

Tank you for find enough time to test the deck I think you translated very well what i 'd like to say. This is not easy to explain some tricks or advantages of a deck in a foreign language.

I think you forgot somethings.
When you play dragon, you never counter an ancestral recall turn 1.
You play combo and you counter only very important spells.

Compulsion is useless when you have a bob and youropponent doin't play wastealnd, so versus gift or t1t, you can pitch compulsion easily.

Intuition is useless when you kill in the turn. This is the same for ancestral recall, sliverqueen nad every other cards.

In this optic, stifle are useless versus gift.

Deep analysis is very good but you can pitch it when you have to counter something.

versus stax, sometimes you have in play a chalice or a trinispher or somethings that doesn't allow you to play some blue cards. This is not rare to pitch a stifle under crucible+strip, because there is a trinispher or to pitch a hurkyl's recall because there is a chalice at 2.

And you don't have the choice versus combo, if your opponent have a broken beginning or a turn 1 kill, you need fow. Even if you pitch an ancestral recall. Countering is better to lose.

http://www.solomoxen.com/?page=7&id=6&menu=1
#6

http://www.solomoxen.com/?page=7&id=17&menu=1
#2

As you can see, I never played 5c in tourney. I just tested it with fompetitor friends.

And as you can see, I made some top 8 with xantid's build. These builds are so old and so bad for now, but when I'm talking about Xantid, this is not only theory. I don't show these results for my rank or to show my name in a top8 , just to show that i played Xantid in tourney.
Xantid+fow or Xantid+ duress.

So yes, i never played 5c in tourney. Of course, i don't want to lose my dci points:) I need these points for legacy;)
But i worked a lot about the choice: Xantid versus duress (or even fow).


Is there a button to say: WRONG!!!!
Of course, it's totally wrong. You can play duress defensivly because you play bazaar. A duress can stop your opponent during a couple of turns, and with bazaar you will gain a lot of tempo, card advantage, ans so the game.
If you see a good hand, you can stop the broken hand or discard fow to win for the next turn. I just remember you that when you're playing dragon, your opponent can't be full taped because you play necromancy.

Your example is very interesting and i desagree with you  :?again :lol:
Imagine a game versus gift for example, after side. A "typical" hand is:
1 or 2 counters (fow or drain), 1 hate, 2 land, 1 mox, 1 gift, 1 brainstorm.
If the hate don't stop my draw engine, like blue elemental, bounce or something like that, my first target for duress is brainstorm or gift, if the mox is a mana crypt
With turn 1 Xantid, your opponent can force it and have also 1 hate, can play brainstorm and take an advantage against you. This advantage is very big if you're playing a deck since CA cards like deep analysis.
Against control, Xantid and duress are very different depending of your hand and your opponent hand. For me, using a duress allows to choice a way:
-1 : stopping opponent broken hand
-2 : discarding fow or a drain because you have a broken hand.
With Xantid, you don't have the first solution even if the second one is better with Xantid than with duress.


The key of a mirror is bazaar of baghdad and squee, not duress or xantid swarm. And to have this bazaar and have a chance to stop your opponent to find it, i prefer use a duress and maybe find a demonic or other tutor. In mirror, if i can force a vampiric turn 1, i do it;)
What is the difference in this matchup, between coffin purge and ray or revelation? Just coffin purge is better, because this card allows to stop the draw engine and ray of revelation, don't do it.
I don't know for you, but the mirror is not very quick. If i won the first one, i side out my 4 dragon and the caller, and waiting for an opponent mistake. Like in a controle game, the draw engine is the more important point.
Like in every other matchups Xantid is better with a broken hand and duress is better with a quite well or a slow hand.


I desagree again. It depends of your build. If you play non basic land and Xantid versus stax, this is very bad. if you play swamp+duress, this is not the same. You can stop a good turn 1 and show if your opponent have a wasteland for your bazaar or a lot of other stategy clues.
These cards are unneccessary only if you can't play duress in the firsts turns.

To resume, versus control/combo like gift the choice is not easy but versus every other matchup this is very easy tp fond wich card is better:)

I didn't have enough time to test good substitutions in 5c but compulsion is for me a big problem.

I remember, I tested ( in 5c) to do:
- 2 compulsion
+1 LDVault
+1 Imperial seal
The deck was better but you are too dependant of bazaar of baghdad, and you can't manage a needle:(

Read this 3 sentences, I wrote before:





Maybe my English is too bad and theses sentences are very different but for me, I never changing my opinion about 5c. There are very good cards, and some bad choices and bad combo (compulsion and burning lands, sorry Mox Lotus, but if you don't understant, why this card is bad in this deck, I don't do anything for you).


I agrre with you. sword is very bad in this Sideboard.


I think our discuss about results is very stupid. I know, this result (top 4 with 5c) come from a lot of tests and work, and i hope you understand this is the same for dragon u/b.

.

I agree with you. 5c is a good idea and some cards are very goods but some choices are very bad like swords or compulsion in this deck.

I think at gencon or at the French Vintage Championship, the rate is approximatvly the same. In Europe, you don't pay 300Euros for a fly to play an unpowered deck. Fly are more expensive in europe than in USA:(The first unpowered was #17, I think.

The same one with 127 players could be easier for me;)

I repeat my question:
For you, Gencon was THE EVENT, even if French Championship accounted 400 players??

No, sorry, I prefer a Beta p9. And you??

Oh, thank you. I forget sometimes the text of LDVault.

Have you ever play the deck in tournament?
Do you think one top4 in Gencon is more representative than 10 top8 with an other deck?
Have you never seen a FCG or a fish in top 4 whereas these decks are not optimal? Maybe like 5c dragon?

So, yes of course. I'm telling you, Dragon u/b won French Vintage Championship and a lot of tourneys in France (more than 50 players) and your answer is: yes, but 5c did a top4 at gencon".
For me:
#1 in a tourney with 400 people is more representative than top 4 with 130 people, isn't it??

I love my country, I love Europe and I love USA, and this is really exciting to discover this country each day, but I don't understand why, for you, your top 4 is more important than a lot of first places in France.

I prefer to play a tutor to LDvault.  Casting costs are not the same and when you play LDVault, this is really rare to need two different cards. When you play dragon, the best card is bazaar. Every tutor are there for Bazaar and when you play LDVault, this is very rare to find Bazaar+dragon or Bazaar+squee.


Good. But for me, top 8 or top 4 is not a victory. In the last 9 months, I think we have in france at least 5 top 8 with u/b dragon. Without XS bur with duresses.


In France, we are 3 to play regularly dragon in tournament. We are the 3 firsts in DCI ranking thanks to this deck.


You say, this is important to have Card Advantage and after, you want to play LDVAult. :shock:

The very good question for you is:
" Have you ever play this deck in tourney with a good result???"
Do you think, with your theory and maybe 2 reports, you have more experience than a person who played this deck for 3 years and won a lot of tournament??
I don't know, maybe I'm missing.

  :shock: :shock:

Maybe you prefer sword ??



Wich tournament please??


Do you mulligan sometimes, or you still have this kind a beginning?

have you read my first post??
EE is a very good substitution to Pernicious deed, and sometimes EE is better;)
Duress>>>XS
Crop rotation>>> a lot of things, but this is unfortunatly insufficient.

A french says me the same sentence, and I sayd: " no, it's not a good idea". Now, i think, it's a great idea. But not for Swords Just for sacred ground and why not balance.

I didn't have enough time to test it, but I think the card is good, this is a bazaar tutor

Purple Hat

I'm sorry, you speak to good for me, and I don't understand every sentence.
But,


What is the diffrence between playing a sword or a chain of vapor, in this case??

no, I desagree, you lose only if your opponent uses wastelands with COV to destoy your mana base. With mana you can play intuition, animate dead, tutor for bazaar, or win condition cards.

I understand your result , this is very easy like that

I agree with you about a lot of points, but i desagree about some other ones. For example, for me and I think a lot of good players, side in swords versus tog is a very big mistake.

I'd like to say something about XS. Who have test it in Dragon? Of crouse, in theory, the card is very good, but it's wrong. This is really easy to anlys the card:

versus: staks or Uba stakds: card is bad, I prefer to have a swamp and play a duress to stop the broken hand than to to have a bayou or a 5c land with an useless XS.
versus gift: it depends. this is my choice but I prefer duress because, gift is very fast and i prefer to have the choice to slow it.
versus gift/oath:: no comment. Turn one XS, and your opponent have played an oath
I prefer to play duress.
versus oath: the same
versus tog XS is better because to destroy it, tog needs to use a Cunning wish and it's very slow.
versus enslaver: i think this is like gift, this is a choice. if you prefer to be agressive or to be sure to win quietly. As you wish.

yeap, you're right,lost in translation

There are a lot of others factors, of course.

But, when I say, mana base is better in u/g than 5c, some people say: "there is ground seal". They never say that uba staks plays ray of revelation or cleaning seal, for exemple.

when I say duress>>>Xantid swarm, some people say: " no, because XS allows to win, because gift can't destroy XS".

I think, each version has his default. Of course, Ground seal is very very good versus staks, but that is not enought for a splash in my opinion. Of course, XS is very very good when you can kill turn 3, but it's very bad when you have a quite good hand.

In the same way, play only 3 mox is very good to have black and blue, and not colorless, but this is very bad versus combo, because you can't play turn 1, chalice at 1 or null rod.

This is easy to play dragon. Why? just because sometimes, the deck wins alone, like staks with trinisphere, six month ago. But, sometimes some games are not easy and I prefer to have a regular deck, and I find mine more regular. I prefer to have questions about the turn that I have to play hurkyl's recall to ask me if I have enough counter on my gemtone to play a spell;)

I thnk a 5c version is a very very good idea, but for me some cards are not good. I repeat, for example, XS or compulsion. Some ones are very good like ground seal or crop rotation.

It will be very interesting to try building a 5c dragon without these "bad" cards, isn't it?

I agree with you. I have just 5% less than you to do the same;)


My metagame in France is:
Uba staks (20%)
Gift.fr ( 20%)
Fish ( 20%)
Bazaar deck (15%)
Oath (10%)
Cotrole slaver (5%)
Staks 5c (5%)
This is very approximative, but I think it's very close to your rate, except for STAKS 5c.


XS and duress are a very interesting discuss, but in France, a lot of deck are built with welder hate (because of XS, Controle slaver or STAKS). Controle slaver is doing a come back, and XS couldn't be as good efficient as duress. I think my bad english stoped me in my argumentation.

You re right. For me, some choices are evident, because of my metagame. I got defensive, you re right, srry

So, if I say: FRENCH Vintage Championship was harder to win than th Gencon, you will kill me??

I agree with you about metagame choice. This is not because a deck is good in Europe that this deck will be good in USA. For example, Madness is a very good deck in Europe but I never see it, in an American top8, why??

I have only one way to show you that this deck is very good, this is to win a lot of tourneys in USA, but I can't...That's too bad.
I don't just win this tourney, if I listed every result, this is to show you, that was not an exploit. And some friends played the same deck in Tours or clichy, and good ones, did also good results.

Maybe, you're right but:

...
This is not the problem, i'd just like to recall that Europeans aren't less good than Americans, that's it.

About this workshop playground:
I prefer to have 4 basics+4 fetchs and 3 mox versus staks to have o basics and 5 moxens. 2 wasteland+chalice at 0, and 5c dragon can't do anything.
Of course after side, I prefer to have ground seal but, if i'm sur to lose the first one, I'm not sure.

I think, in French vintage chmpioship, for example, I played versus 4 workshop deck, so...