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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays - GroAtog v. The World
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on: July 06, 2007, 01:43:14 am
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While the game play mistakes might have been somewhat embarrassing, I don't think they destroyed the usefulness of the article. I think that folks are complaining solely because this is the first time many of us have seen a Smennen article that revealed such mistakes in any number. Usually, the 'mistakes' are in-game choices that turned out to be suboptimal in a high-stakes tournament setting.
This will in no way make me want to read this column any less. This article, if anything, was just a small departure from the tournament reports and in-depth test games that many have grown used to. Those, I might add, represent a considerable investment of time. If the article seems to be of lesser quality compared to many of Smennen's other ones, that's just because those articles have been setting the bar extremely high.
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2
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: R/G Beatz - viable or not
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on: July 06, 2007, 01:21:20 am
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Land: 5x Forest 4x Mountain 4x Taiga 3x Wasteland 2x Wooded Foothills (I like playing only 2 since maze kills these) 1x Strip Mine
Green: 4x Root Maze 3x Tarmogoyf (this guy is great, easily a 3/4 or 4/5 with all the stuff in your library plus your opponenets) 2x Hidden Guerrillas (i like playing both hiddens since your not going to get someone to play a instant or artifact all the time) 2x Hidden Gibbons 1x Mire Boa 1x River Boa 1x Krosan Grip 1x Elvish Spirit Guide
Red: 4x Lightning Bolt 3x Kird Ape 3x Gorilla Shaman 3x Simian Spirit Guide 2x Tin Street Hooligan 2x Magus of the Moon (blood moon with a 2/2 body)
Gold: 2x Artifact Mutation
Artifact: 3x Chalice of the Void 4x Null Rod
Sideboard: 1x Pyroclasm (useful for EtW) 4x Red Elemental Blast (should i knock this down to 2 and add 2 Pyroblast to split it up?) 4x Leyline of the Void 1x Krosan Grip 4x Incinerate 1x Artifact Mutation
Here's some critique. Interesting idea, using Tarmgoyf. I would additionally run some seal enchantments (Seal of Primordium and/or Seal of Fire) to make him bigger, though. If you think it's worth the risk, Land Grant would also put some sorceries in your graveyard, and they could replace your fetches. Leyline of the Void by itself is not enough to battle Ichorid. You'll want to stop Bazaar as well, since it can be used to dig for more enchantment removal to gang up even on multiple Leylines. Moons can help, but it would be a good idea to try and fit in Pithing Needles too. Of course, if Ichorid goes into decline, you may not need even the Leylines anymore. Like Kowal said, you probably want to add in more moons. I usually have four, and that's not often enough if they're the ones on sticks. They're vital against GAT now, as getting two basic islands for a Gushathon is a lot harder, and if you manage to resolve a moon early enough, you might not get dispatched so quickly by Fastbond. Another difference of opinion I hold is that in the current metagame, with Long and GAT running rampant, you'll probably need Pyrostatic Pillar. You can switch them for Mutations against Stax, or even keep around a set of Tin-Streets for your two-for-one needs. I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned Gathan Raiders here yet, but I think they're utterly beastly. Thing is, Tarmogoyf could end up being even larger, though Raiders certainly combo with lizards. I originally scrapped R/G because its creatures were smaller than everyone else's, but between Goyf and Raiders, that might have changed somewhat. Combos well with Mongrel, too, and with Megaliths. Sudden Shock might be good now, too, since you can sometimes kill Dryads and just about always kill Psychatogs if you can manage not to get it duressed. In that slot, though, I'd probably just go with Flametongue Kavu. Expensive two-for-one vs. a split-second card that may or may not kill what it's aimed at? I may be out of my element in this metagame, but GAT seems to have filled in the void that control decks left, and to beat it you need similar forms of disruption and the biggest creatures you can find. I think R/G has potential right now.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: WUb Fish: Deck Discussion
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on: June 08, 2007, 12:28:18 am
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I've been wavering on the decision of what deck to play in the current meta. Lots of GAT is something I never thought I'd actually have to deal with.
Anyway, I was wondering:
1. If Null Rod is much less good (Due to the elimination of Gifts and the decline of Slaver), is AEther Vial now better?
2. If AEther Vial is better, what about Standstill and Factories/Ninjas?
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: R/G deck (insert clever deck name here)
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on: May 28, 2007, 09:19:43 pm
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Cards I would suggest:
Tin Street Hooligan
Pyroblast/REB (Maindecked in some metas)
Gathan Raiders. Want to beat fish? Here you go. He's a Phyrexian Negator that costs a card or two instead of your permanents. Downside? Countered by chalice @ 0.
Basking Rootwalla, which combos with Raiders
Wild Mongrel, which can combo with Raiders and of course Rootwalla.
Why go with the madness type cards? One reason is that you don't depend on your opponent casting spells (in the case of hidden enchantments) or get hurt by graveyard hate (in the case of Werebear/Mongoose, which is the other choice for big green dudes).
I've been testing 4x Keen Sense and 2x Sylvan Library for card draw as well.
This archetype has potential, I think. As Drains diminish and Fish decks (especially UB) start showing up to counter Flash and Ichorid, you might see more Stax as well. CS could remain a force in the metagame also, if it adapts. So, essentially it's a budget deck that hates on all blue decks, while more or less stomping all over Stax. Ichorid and Flash could be tough to impossible matchups, though. The only hate I see for those matchups are Tormod's Crypt, Ground Seal, Pithing Needle. All very limited.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: The Long Awaited GWS Long Primer.
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on: May 28, 2007, 08:02:48 pm
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Cool primer. Most of the matchups seem very spot-on, including SS. I've found Cutpurse to be very good vs. storm combo, and I've even been able to use it as a scare tactic more than once. REBs are never good to see, so a Long build based more on red is far worse a matchup. Just having more maindecked bombs is better vs. a constant discard effect, too. You can come back after being hit by discard as long as you're quick about it.
Concerning post-FS:
I'm not sure if Flash is really the beast it was made out to be, especially Flash Tendrils. The real danger is them going off before your turn, and Leyline fixes that problem more often than not. After that, Duress can buy you turns. As long as you can win before they build enough mana to tutor, bounce, and win on their turn, you should be fine. You'd also be in trouble if you run out of hand disruption and don't have enough gas/get Fow'd, but that doesn't seem much worse than what happens against Gifts. REB and SSG are really good here, too.
Ichorid might be a lot scarier in post-FS vintage because of its ability to kill hate. I think that if you end up running into lots of Ichorid, a sideboard plan of 4 Leyline, 2 Pithing Needle should swing the matchup in your favor. Long of course still has the fast win, and most of the time their Therapy (cast with Bayou, most likely) won't hurt you too much. Winning before Therapy #2 is pretty important, I'd imagine.
The other question to ask is whether siding in 6 cards is better than going for the optimal configuration for the fast win. At most, you'd be facing a turn 0 Leyline and a turn 1 hardcast Therapy against Ichorid. Perhaps a flashed Therp too, but that's only if they get Narcomoeba out turn 1. Unopposed Ichorid has a Fundamental Turn of 2 or 3, depending on their draw and what Bazaar digs up. If you're on the play, would the best strategy be to go for a turn 1 or 2 win, rather than dilute your deck with hate?
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: "Fish" cards in the Future Sight Meta
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on: May 14, 2007, 09:15:19 pm
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There are only three cards that are worth boarding in against Ichorid IMHO:
1. Leyline of the Void 2. Planar Void 3. Yixlid Jailer
Samurai and Children of Korlis do a good job of nuking Bridge and (the former) also prevents recurring creatures, but Narcomoeba is still a danger as well as multiple Shadows/Ichorids appearing. You still get Therapied out and smashed in the face, it just takes a little longer most of the time.
Everyone who thinks that destroying Bazaar or keeping relevant cards in their hand after Ichorid decides to win is in for a rude awakening. Ichorid is designed to remove counterspells and any in-hand card that could do anythiing to to Dread Return or Sutured Ghoul on its winning turn. It has also been clearly stated that one Bazaar activation is enough to facilitate Ichorid's win post-FS.
Therefore, you need to depend on the black cards and your deck's ability to drop them as early as possible and defend them while you set up your clock.
I'm also quite looking forward to neutering Flash decks with Extirpate or Jailer, though I may just go with Void if I need to save sideboard space. :/
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: RG Beats w/ Future Sight
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on: May 13, 2007, 02:31:17 pm
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Keen Sense and Library could occupy the same slot, whichever one you choose. Sense could cost you cards at inopportune times, but Library costs you life and punishes you for long games.
Without tutors, I'd probably test three Dwarf. The idea with him is to drop him early, just like you would in other formats with Seal of Fire. You basically use it to ward off ETW and stall your opponent into trying for a lethal Tendrils instead. Slice and Dice is very nice, but it's only good if you can get three mana before your opponent beats you up. I'd do tests with either card and see which works better based on your mana. Against aggro, you'd do well to hold off on dropping your hand with him out in the interest of card advantage.
You're right about Pyro Pillar. That's why it's a metagame call. It was gold against Gifts and CS, but horrible against Stax in particular. You basically need Artifact Mutation to survive against Stax because of its locks and artifact creatures.
Dead//Gone is best in matchups like Fish, I think. You kill weenies, and bounce biguns like Old Man of the Sea. You can also clear the way of 2/4's and Trinkey Mages with it. Otherwise, though, it ends up being a bad Artifact Mutation against artifact fatties.
Is Dead//Gone too narrow? Seems like Lightning Bolt could be at least as good sometimes.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Post-FS Deck Discussion] Hulk Flash, Hulk Smash
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on: May 12, 2007, 08:28:54 pm
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Cutting MisD might work. Maybe even one Summoner's Pact, since 4 Hulk + 3 SP should mean you realistically always draw one.
Basically, having Echoing Truth and Chain means that even Leyline + Chalice @ 1 is nothing to you. Chalice @ 2 and Leyline is only slightly worse, because you can just 1cc tutor for CoV.
They'd need double Chalice and Leyline out, and you'd still be able to copy CoV on the Chalice @ 2 and cast Truth on the Leyline to win.
Seems like this deck is even more resilient to hate than WGDX was.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Post-FS Deck Discussion] Hulk Flash, Hulk Smash
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on: May 12, 2007, 07:37:57 pm
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Bazaar of Baghdad is an option, but I wanted to be as resistant to Pithing Needle as possible, considering I was drawing all of the cards targeted against Ichorid as it was.
I mostly meant the play style of WGDX, but now I'm thinking that it was the wrong idea. This deck only needs perhaps a turn or two to sculpt the hand it needs before going off, assuming it doesn't draw flash, mox, Hulk/SP, PoN etc. in the opening hand. Chalice at one is a lot less troublesome than Chalice at two, and that's the reason I use Chain of Vapor over Echoing Truth, because if Stax resolves Chalice at two, then Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal can tutor for your removal spell.
I meant Chalice @ 1 with Leyline of the Void in play. Obviously, just one Chalice and nothing else isn't going to matter much. It'll buy a turn or so at most. However, Leyline plus Chalice @ 1 would be deadly to you if you had no Echoing Truth to Scroll for. Well, and if you didn't have an extra land and a mox so you could send the CoV copy over. Chances are, you'd have to deal with Leyline, first turn hand disruption, and possibly Chalices all in the same match. A similar problem would be Leyline with Meddling Mage naming CoV. Having two different bounce spells could save you some headaches if you get paired against someone who's done some scouting on your deck. I'd go 1:1, just to be techy and such. As far as a Plan B goes, the best I can come up with is Virulent Sliver and poison counters in the 1 Hearth Sliver, 4 Virulent Sliver version or assembling the kill condition with Cephalid Illusionist and a Nomad En-Kor in the Dread Return and Sutured Ghoul version, but both of those options are just awful, so I'd just man up and bring in the SB.
Ouch. Well, creature beats with a focus on scrolling/tutoring for protection cards to keep you and them alive and swinging is better than just regular creature beats. I was thinking that a mainboard plan could be helpful in a metagame where people are ready for the Hulk matchup. If one exists that doesn't mess with the main combo and engine much, it'd be worth it. SBing in an answer might not be the best thing to do. All you'd have to do is prevent your opponent from defending their Leyline effectively. I suppose that you could go for something like... -4 PoN -1 SP +5 Janky Sliver win (ex dee) No. Actually, I don't think you would, unless I'm missing something and this actually looks good. Duress would work, but that would require duals, right? Seems better just to go balls to the wall and PoN everything, mostly hoping that your opponent doesn't draw the nuts and assassinate your combo with infi backup.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Post-FS Deck Discussion] Hulk Flash, Hulk Smash
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on: May 12, 2007, 03:03:27 pm
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Just looking at the list, it seems like you could play Hulk in a way similar to WGDX, only about five+ times faster. Difference is that with Pacts you can win a lot earlier without having to worry about more than a turn 0 Leyline or Force of Will.
Seems like most of the time Chalice @ 1 and Leyline would be a big problem if they showed up together. Echoing Truth in the main would fix that, though.
I don't want to sound like a doubter, but is there a secondary game plan if you run into someone successfully protecting their Leyline or if Flash gets Extirpated? I mean other than beating down with overcosted critters cast by Lotus and moxes.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Deck] "Darwin Fish" or U/W splash B Fish.
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on: May 11, 2007, 06:13:16 pm
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Rector Flash (and Hulk Flash) are probably going to see play, but probably not as much as Ichorid as far as I'm guessing. That alone is more than enough to include 4 Leyline in the main. If Flash outnumbers Ichorid, Extirpate might end up being better. Don't forget that you can Duress out a Flash, then Extirpate it. You'd need Cabal Therapy to nail Hulk or Rector this way...but wouldn't that be sweet?
Children of Korlis are also a good combo with Confidant if you always seem to flip expensive cards. It might help you keep your life total in the safe zone while you beat down.
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: RG Beats w/ Future Sight
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on: May 11, 2007, 05:46:23 pm
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Many of the choices here are metagame dependent. I would go with Pillar in the main, since most non-workshop decks can't afford to leave it in play if they want to win. Dead//Gone and Artifact Mutation likewise may not be best in the MB in some metas. Actually, Ancient Grudge might be a better choice for artifact destruction as long as you have five strips and aren't facing Stax too often.
I would test Bloodfire Dwarf as an ETW solution. It's apparently had success in TMWA, and it also takes care of pesky Confidants against the other aggros.
Is there a case for Seal of Primordium over Naturalize? Minor differences, but when was the last time anyone saw Disenchant in a list over Seal of Cleansing? Depending on what enchantments you end up facing, there are other choices as well. Reverent Silence against Oath is one possible example.
Magus is nice for a lot of reasons. It also dodges Chalice in any sane matchup. I would almost always use him over Blood Moon because he beats.
I think that in a lot of metas, you might want 4-5 MB answers to ETW in the main, not the SB. Dwarf is one. Cards like Tremor and Pyroclasm are also feasible, but are perhaps less versatile.
I think my biggest concern is the lack of draw engine. You usually need one to stay in the game in case your opening flurry doesn't end things early. Wheel of Fortune, perhaps? Keen Sense?
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Rector Flash
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on: May 07, 2007, 12:47:01 pm
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How good cabal therapy is is directly related to how good you are
Totally wrong. I'm a wicked bad player and Cabal Therapy is like a double rocket launcher for me. XD Seriously, Therapy and Duress are nearly equal if you know how to use Therapy. Duress isn't nearly as versatile, only nabs one card, and can't be replayed for zero mana. Duress is only considered better because it's easier to use. How is Therapy not the optimal choice for a combo deck, especially if it's an actual combo enabler if it needs to be? Given that, I think that FoW is just as good when you are planning on winning the game during your turn or nuking your opponent's topdeck. Note that Brassman's list had both, and not much more. Duress was in the side, but I don't know if he ever needed it during the tournament.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Article] A Future Sight of Vintage
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on: May 05, 2007, 07:40:35 am
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Barren Glory is terrible with Balance. Try this on for size:
Opponent's EOT: Flash choosing Academy Rector. In response to Rector's trigger, Dark Ritual, Kaervek's Spite. Find Barren Glory. Win during your upkeep.
You need three mana on the table and four different cards for the combo. Still terrible, but at least it isn't sorcery speed wait-a-turn.
Also, I think you might have forgotten to mention how amazing Street Wraith is in Ichorid.
Otherwise, nice article =)
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: UBw Fish w/ out Chalice/Null Rod: The Evolution of Fish?
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on: April 26, 2007, 09:07:36 pm
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U/w uses tempo and bears in order to win the game, because the T1.5 concept of hand optimization and hand disruption don't work in T1; just cantripping and discarding the opponent's spells is a tempo black hole, and the opponent has the mana to just rip a card and win. Even with hand optimization and discard, Fish is still just flat out under powered card for card when it's compared to the rest of the field.
Yup. No matter how many times you cast Duress and Therapy, your opponent is still going to accumulate mana. As soon as they get a chance to resolve a bomb, that's it. Even if you can keep up with FoW and hand disruption, your opponent is just going to end up with a full graveyard to Y. Will with. Furthermore... Erasing one strategy to depend on another doesn't seem very good in this case. Fish needs all the weapons it can get against the faster combo and control strategies that are present in today's metagame. As an aggro player, I'm well aware that hand disruption is well and good, but alone it can only do so much. I usually win my games against control/combo when I can attack at least two out of three critical elements: The hand, the graveyard, and the mana base. You can't leave two of these alone and expect to have all the attack phases you need to win. I may be wrong, but I also think Chalice is being underestimated here. It doesn't just stop moxen and lotuses and Vaults and Sol Rings, after all. Four artifact mana isn't much, by the way. Your Gifts opponent is packing how much in comparison? Ten+? The list doesn't seem much like evolution to me. Evolution happens when something new occurs and ends up working. Removing mana denial elements from fish seems more like a step backward to me.
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: [New Deck] Oath of Korlis
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on: April 20, 2007, 06:45:13 pm
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Guys, I'm not sure where this two-way discussion is going...other than nowhere, that is. "Yes it is" and "No it isn't" don't help us learn, especially when there's no new information being shared.
I won't comment on statements to the effect of "Your deck isn't as good as you think it is". Instead I have decided to do some professing.
EXAMPLE QUESTIONS:
What sort of metagame is this deck good in?
Why should I play it rather than some other deck that's already well-established?
What strategies does the deck make excellent use of?
What are some things that can be done to adjust the decklist for a different metagame?
Why did you choose to run that number of such and such a card?
EXAMPLE ANSWERS:
On answering Chalice: Most decks you play against in Vintage tournaments are Vintage decks. That is, even if they will readily drop Chalice @ 1, if they do it early it will probably affect their clock and it will shut off a good portion of their deck. I've been adding Chalices to every decklist I've been making, and you almost surely can't make one that's both competitive and isn't affected by Chalice @ 1 at all. That being said, when your opponent drops Chalice @ 1 proactively, you will almost always have some time to answer it. With Sylvan Library and Dark Confidant, you can dig four cards deep for an answer. If they drop Chalice to keep you from clawing your way back into the game against a one or two turn clock, you're still probably screwed, but otherwise there's hope.
I can see a case being made to include Chalice of the Void and Unmask in here. Since Children of Korlis are in there to fight combo, though, and they cost one mana, they wouldn't be that good with Chalice (in my meta you almost always want to cast Chalice @ 1 unless you're expecting your opponent to combo off after your turn and you don't have the mana for one counter).
Chalice @ 1 and Unmask have excellent synergy, especially when you have black cards that you can't cast anymore. Aside from (probably) some Children, you'd also probably have to cut some Extirpates, Duresses, or Therapies to avoid having a hand full of them. Of course, if you did that you wouldn't be able to call the deck "Oath of Korlis" anymore.
Perhaps against the fastest combo decks, you'd side out Extirpates for Chalices and go with Unmask just to have faster disruption. Or perhaps Children and black hand disruption would be enough if you found room for dark rituals.
Huh. Well, that's more of a sharing of ideas than an answer.
Now, does anyone have an example of constructive criticism on the latest decklist? I, for one, am wondering if it should be more "Tutors and silver bullets" than "Catch-all answers" such as Vindicate (which gives up castability for versatility).
As far as more creature-based disruption, all I can think up at the moment are Mesmeric Fiend and Samurai of the Pale Curtain. Both are less effective than what's already there, except that Samurai hates the graveyard proactively (turning off Crucible and Welder mostly, while Extirpate has a different function). There's True Believer as well, but Children of Korlis is strictly better against ToA.
Other ideas?
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Single Card Discussion] Bitter Ordeal
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on: April 12, 2007, 09:08:42 pm
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This card has recently been spoiled on MTG Salvation, and will apparently be released in the upcoming set- Future Sight. Bitter Ordeal Casting Cost:   Sorcery Search target player's library for a card and remove that card from the game.Then that player shuffles his or her library. Gravestorm ( When you play this spell, copy it for each permanent put into a graveyard from play this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.) This also has been discussed on SCG, but originally proposed to be run in Stax. I myself don't think that a card like this would be strong at all in such a deck, but I'd imagine that it could be a strong-selection elsewhere. When teamed with fetchlands, Petals, et cetera, Gravestorm allows you to target multiple cards in your opponent's library, which can lead to serious problems in several Vintage decks. Discuss. Crap, but since it removes cards from people's library it'll see play off and on by people for some unknown reason. People in Vintage have some sort of fetish towards any card that can do that.  It's also an annoying stall tactic with a lot of copies, what with the repeated shuffles. You might even be able to wear out your opponent's hands until they can't finish the round. XP
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Single Card Discussion] Bitter Ordeal
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on: April 12, 2007, 05:22:13 pm
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I think this card is yet another addition to black's arsenal. It's great with Chalice, unlike Extract. All you have to do is break a lotus, fetch, or petal. Or waste/strip something. Or blow EE. Or let smokestack trigger.
The problem is that you'd need to be using it with full artifact acceleration and/or dark rituals. Otherwise it has synergy with every removal card printed.
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: Future sight card: Mist of Rage - aggro viable again?
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on: April 08, 2007, 09:14:05 pm
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Concordant Crossroads is the super jank. Discarding Anger would probably be a lot more viable.
As far as winning the game with an all-out aggro strategy, there used to be a deck that would do this pretty well. It was called Hatred. It only needed a creature with two power attacking in the combat step, five mana and 20 life to win.
As far as the color red and a combo aggro win...well, ETW kicks the crap out of anything you could show me right now. ETW and Goblin Bombardment, maybe with Anger in the graveyard, would rock so much harder than this card's face. XP
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Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Sylvan Library and Dredge
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on: April 01, 2007, 10:27:26 pm
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The judge ruling actually prompted my question because the wording was a bit sloppy. It is interesting how the wording on the card is, though. It isn't just a Mirri's Guile with "Pay 4 life: draw a card. You may use this ability only during your draw step and only twice each turn." slapped on. The combo could be useful in future decks, though I think for now it's mostly just a bad card drawing spell that Ichorid with a green splash would never think of using. Or a really good 'green fishy' card.
Anyway, I appreciate the responses. =)
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: [New Deck] Oath of Korlis
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on: April 01, 2007, 08:30:50 pm
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Jotun Grunt isn't necessarily anti-synergistic with Oath of Ghouls, because versus Fish, and other decks that actually use creatures, you can empty their GY of creatures so you can activate Oath of Ghouls.
I actually think it should take the slot of Withered Wretch, because it is much easier to cast, has a fairly similar ability, and swings for four each turn. And yes, he does have synergy with Bazaar of Baghdad.
True, though there's potential for play mistakes or draws that could hurt. Wretch has one advantage over Grunt, that being his ability's greater speed (if you have extra mana after casting him that is). Otherwise Grunt does everything better, and is only a bit less synergistic with Oath. I mean, it's not like you need to be a Yawgmoth's Will deck with creatures in order to activate Oath of Ghouls every turn, right?
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Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Sylvan Library and Dredge
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on: April 01, 2007, 07:36:57 pm
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I read the ruling on Sylvan Library and Dredge at SCG's Ask the Judge database, but it was a little unclear.
My question is thus: If I dredge instead of drawing for the turn, then choose to use Sylvan Library's ability and dredge again twice (effectively drawing zero cards), do I have to pay life at all?
Sylvan Library's wording suggests that you can only choose cards that you drew on the current turn. If you never drew a card, but replaced all of your draws by dredging, then there's effectively nothing to choose.
If Library gives you free dredges (provided you dredged on your draw for the turn as well), then I'm inclined to believe that Sylvan Library + Pursuit of Knowledge + one draw step = 7 cards drawn during main phase. Is this true?
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: [New Deck] Oath of Korlis
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on: April 01, 2007, 07:10:22 pm
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Someone said 4/4 graveyard eating giant man!
Jotun Grunt + Oath of Ghouls + Withered Wretch = kinda bleah (Grunt can shut off Oath and gets sent away early with use of Wretch's ability).
However, adding in Bazaar would allow Grunt to stay around longer, and when he gets too many age counters he gets sacrificed and ends up back in your hand in short order. Could this possibly work? I mean, you're going to target your opponent's graveyard first, so you'll end up having lots more creatures in your yard until Grunt has to be sac'd.
Ok...so Grunt has bad asynergy with Oath and lesser asynergy with Wretch, while it also has awesome synergy with Bazaar and ok synergy with Oath (again, because he's a creature). Um...complicated.
I think Grunt is worth testing, but only if you stick Bazaars in somewhere (no in a land slot, for Jebus' sake). With some good management you could really take advantage of all of that...stuff. But not too many Grunts. You would want to see 0-1 per game depending on the matchup, I think.
Phew. This thread's starting to hurt my team great brain..
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25
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: [New Deck] Oath of Korlis
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on: April 01, 2007, 06:02:33 pm
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You can sac Korlis to gain the life you lost untill you sac korlis as far as I know.
If you're referring to Sylvan Library: Paying life and losing life are different things. You can gain the life you spent back with two Children and another source of life loss as you pointed out, though. In case you're talking about lethal damage from goblins: Well, you're dead anyway if they swing for the win. Of course, if your storm deck opponent doesn't have enough tokens to kill you in one attack step, Children of Korlis are pretty great. But only a bad player would make the mistake of going all out for ETW and coming up short against you like that, unless you bring Children out as a surprise first game. That would be cool to see, if short-lived. As far as Vial being expensive, well, fast mana and ritual should help. And if you were running Vial with Chalice, you can drop Chalice at 0. There do seem to be two divergent paths here: 1. Kataki, Vigilante, Library 2. Vial, Chalice, Acolyte (other harder-to-cast creatures with solid effects) On path 1 you are free to run all of the noncreature spells you have in the last posted list, because you have plenty of creatures already. On 2 you may need to replace some of those cards with creatures, since you'll be running Vial/Chalice and not Kataki. This calls for a tentative list. 4 Aether Vial 4 Chalice of the Void 4 Dark Confidant 4 Withered Wretch 3 Multani's Acolyte 3 Viridian Zealot 3 Children of Korlis 4 Duress 3 Extirpate 2 Cabal Therapy 3 Oath of Ghouls 4 Bayou 3 Scrubland 4 Strip effects 5 Fetch lands 1 Swamp 4 Dark Ritual 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Jet It would need tweaking and testing, but I think it's an intriguing alternative. It also looks better, but that's never something you can depend on totally. Vial decks do depend on getting Vial out first turn, but aside from that, the card choices seem solid for testing. I'm still not sold on Children of Korlis, but I don't have a better suggestion yet. This list also lacks STP and ETW, but they may end up fitting in with cuts. As for EE (and possibly Pernicious Deed), they're good, and would at least be in the SB. You can stil test the card-drawing greenies in your list, Guli, but Library is almost certainly better. From what you say, your list wouldn't like the double green casting cost either. Wall of Mulch and Heart Warden might work too, except you'd need to keep hardcasting them, which may suck.
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26
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: [New Deck] Oath of Korlis
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on: April 01, 2007, 03:58:07 pm
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There aren't any MB Null Rods in here, but there is artifact destruction. Could there be room for Aether Vials? Artifact destruction is a natural defense for Vial, since it kills Null Rod and Pithing Needle.
I see that you're going for a list that takes good advantage of utility creatures. That could make Children of Korlis better than Chalice (due to card synergy), but Chalice's power is almost definitely more meandeck against combo otherwise (especially with Dark Ritual to power out more counters). Children of Korlis also can't keep you from losing to 22+ goblin tokens, while Chalice is more proactive and almost certainly buys you effective turns.
If you're looking for nonblue creatures that draw you cards, why not try Heart Warden, Multani's Acolyte or even Yavimaya Elder or Wall of Mulch? They could effectively replace Sylvan Library, since the life you pay to it can't be regained with Children. You also would benefit from having more creatures in the list than almost any other deck. The disadvantage is how much mana they cost to cast every turn, which Vial would help a lot with.
I did a little searching for B, W, and G cards on SCG. For artifact/enchantment removal, I saw Harmonic Sliver, Capashen Unicorn and Viridian Zealot.
For creature removal, I saw Garza's Assassin and not much else that's cheap. My basic idea is that you could use Aether Vial and Chalice to good effect. You might also be able to take advantage of cards that allow you to sacrifice creatures for a useful effect, such as Attrition or even Greed.
I'm sure there are good cards in other colors, too. Ideally you'd want to have a list that has at least as many advantages as UW fish (for example), or that at least has enough power and surprise factor to do well at a tournament or two. It might be hard to do that in a BWG shell, but so far you make it seem very possible.
EDIT: To wrap up the post, I think that Aether Vial and artifact hate, plus Chalice of the Void should be tested in a BWG list. You would have less of a need for Null Rod with Chalice in the main. I actually like the creature base in the last list aside from Children. Lastly, creatures either with useful sacrificial effects or combined with them make Oath of Ghouls' effect gre@ter (Ha, take that meandeck filter! XD).
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27
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: A New Look at Sligh
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on: March 30, 2007, 11:35:56 pm
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Hmm...that makes sense. I was skeptical because Heretic isn't so amazing in the (11/11-less) Gifts matchup, which I consider to be the most important at all times. At least not compared to the shaman.
I suppose I wouldn't hesitate to mainboard him if I was expecting lots of Slaver and Stax. I would if the metagame was more fish and Gifts and aggro, though.
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28
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: A New Look at Sligh
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on: March 29, 2007, 05:11:45 pm
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I really don't think Gamble...
Damnit. I'll test it, because it's the best red card ever (besides Kird Ape and Mox Monkey, but sorceries can't compete with primates). Lore is right out, though. Discarding multiple cards at random can be a bit problematic.
Reckless Wurm looks good. This deck is really good at keeping Jotun Grunt on the board, and having something as big as he is might be useful. Essentially, Grunt is about the only problem the list faces vs. Fish (besides active Jitte). I was considering Char (and I still am, frankly) because it's the only four damage spell that costs less than four mana (and doesn't require a creature sacrifice) just because of that dude. No one wants to have to two-for-one a 4/4 just because it's a 4/4.
I have one or two regrets about the list so far. No Magma Jet, and too many 1cc cards. I'm not swapping Jet for Bolt, though. That's crazy talk.
I'd add Chain Lightning before Fiery Temper, no offense. And Heretic seems a bit slow, honestly. What matchups would he be best for?
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29
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: A New Look at Sligh
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on: March 28, 2007, 10:28:38 pm
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A note on draw engine:
Saying that Red has no actual card drawing isn't correct. I'm not talking about Browbeat, either. I'm talking about Squee. I've been testing Bazaar with mostly good results. Four Squee seem to be necessary, but Sligh's a red deck, so he's at least castable in a pinch.
Skullclamp hasn't even made it into my test list, but I still think it might be good. I just don't like the creature base that Skullclamp seems to need. It also costs mana, while Bazaar totally doesn't.
Here's the list:
Mishra'sFactoryismyhero.dec 4 Bazaar 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 4 Mishra's Factory 2 Bloodstained Mire 2 Wooded Foothills 8 Mountain
1 Black Lotus 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mox Ruby
4 Chalice of the Void 4 Grim Lavamancer 4 Gorilla Shaman 4 Lightning Bolt 2 Pyroblast 1 REB 4 Pyrostatic Pillar (Very much the all-around MVP) 1 Wheel of Fortune 4 Simian Spirit Guide 4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
SB: 4 Shattering Spree 4 Tormod's Crypt 3 Goblin Bombardment 3 Bloodfire Dwarf 1 REB
By all means an experimental list, but it seems fairly tight already. Pillar has been really good, as it always was (except against Ichorid).
The SB especially has some good possibilities other than what I have there.
Jitte for the Fish/aggro matchup Dead/Gone for Colossus, though the slot also works for general creature removal Lava Dart is never a bad choice Anarchy kills pesky big-assed white creatures like Meddling Mage, Jotun Grunt and Auriok Salvagers
For now I'm going to keep testing. The Gifts matchup seems ok already, but ones like Fish need to be better.
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30
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: A New Look at Sligh
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on: March 27, 2007, 04:48:12 pm
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Here's a bunch of random info:
Ball Lightning doesn't fit into the aggro creature niche at all. It's three mana, it doesn't disrupt, and it doesn't even stay around. With skullclamp it becomes 2RRR: Deal 7 damage to target opponent. 1: Draw two cards, or 0: Draw two cards at end of turn. Either way, the extra cards probably won't help you until your next untap. That also makes Ball Lightning asynergistic with REB. I think there was discussion about it on the old Sligh thread I started last year.
Slith Firewalker can be good, but it also fails to force interaction unless it's swinging for the win. I use it in slower formats than Vintage, where I've had little success with it in 'Sligh' builds.
I think Bloodfire Dwarf would make a good utility creature, though. I remember seeing it in Whirlpool decks way back when I first started playing.
PoP is unfortunately less good than it used to be, but still viable. Two mana for four damage is still really good, but nowadays you'll see just one nonbasic on the other side of the board much more often.
WoF(ortune) is still a favorite of mine, and it's even better now with SSG. I cut it back when I was still using mono-red at local tournaments because it hardly ever drew into free mana (Lotus/Petal/Mox/Chrome weren't quite enough), but I think it's an auto-include now.
I may just test Skullclamp. It ends up costing some mana, but it might lead to more consistent turn four wins. I'd definitely use Spark Elemental over Ball Lightning first, though.
I might MD Spree, or at least include four copies in the SB to beat up Stax and Fish in game two.
Oh, and just as a last note: Don't expect to win many matches against powerful decks if you can't consistently whack the goldfish by turn four. Slower wins are usually ok, but only if your opponent is being forced to interact with your strategy instead of just goldfishing you. Or if you maindeck REB and count on Clamp to draw you cards, you might be able to trade speed for card advantage without giving away the win.
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